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GMC Forum _ CHILL OUT _ Satch, Vai, Paul, Nita, Polyphia.
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jan 21 2020, 02:09 PM
I don't like to be that "old" man saying this.. but honestly this video is so clear.
The difference between the older guys (Satch, Vai, Paul) and the others when improvising is huge... don't you think so?
One of my favorite parts of the video is how Paul enjoys Satch's jam. 
Posted by: klasaine Jan 21 2020, 06:37 PM
Yeah, but the level and caliber of 'real world' experience at this point is probably going to be unattainable for the others. The environment for it doesn't presently exist anymore. Nita Strauss played really well. The other young guys, not so much. I have no idea who they are - ?
*Satriani has always been my favorite out of all the instro guitar shredders. He swings.
Posted by: Phil66 Jan 21 2020, 09:18 PM
Joe, Steve, Nina and Paul all have more stage presence, the Polyphia lads seem withdrawn, kinda how I'd be on stage.
This isn't a bad tune, the video is okay too 
https://youtu.be/7C19ZGLuhlQ
Posted by: Mertay Jan 22 2020, 09:54 AM
Good observation, Polyphia guys may be much younger but they're a 10 year old band and released their first video 6 years ago.
My guess is with todays production values, working on improvisation doesn't have the same importance as it used to.
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jan 22 2020, 02:00 PM
My guess is with todays production values, working on improvisation doesn't have the same importance as it used to.
This is a very important point. Most of modern guitarists work a lot on their compositions and albums but not as much on improvisation and that's why there is a big contrast when comparing their original music with their jams.
This is not a critique is a reality. Being a great improviser is as difficult and requires as much work as being a great composer, and if you want to be good at both you need to dedicate some practice to each.
Guthrie is a KILLER improviser, but I don't think that his compositions are as interesting as things composed by Petrucci or Plini.
What's your side? What do you enjoy more? Improvising or Composing/Producing?
Posted by: Phil66 Jan 22 2020, 02:24 PM
I know that question was aimed a Mertay but I learnt last year just how hard improv is, I'm okay sticking to a single scale shape in the key signature but when it comes to following the chords I really really struggle.
I think in many ways improv is harder than composition because it is basically composition on the fly in real time, it does get easier I guess but it is something that takes a lot of practise and a lot of licks in your mental library, something I struggle to recall when improvising.
Back when I was a kid, I always thought improv was easy because "you just play what you want". How wrong was I?
Posted by: Mertay Jan 22 2020, 03:07 PM
One may think with composing things are easier but the process can be related to "time" just as much as improvising. For example, an idea may pop-up and it has to be recorded/mixed quickly while fresh in your head or a days work may be for nothing when listened again the next day
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 22 2020, 07:14 PM
The "young guys" are the dudes from POLYPHIA. They are just a bit outside of their element trying to swap leads with guys who actually play leads and have played leads for several decades. The polyphia guys are on the stage because this is an IBANEZ endorsee jam from the looks of it. The polyphia guys are the hot young things doing the "Instagram Style" bits these days. Including this trendy tune.
Nita held her own, but mostly she is a performer more than a player from the look of it. She does have great stage presence to be sure.
Can anyone get up there with Paul/Steve/Satch and really go toe to toe? It would be tough. These guys are legends at doing exactly what they are doing at this gig and they have decades of experience doing it. Maybe in 30 years, the young dudes will be all over it, as the old guys will all be retired by then
The difference between the older guys (Satch, Vai, Paul) and the others when improvising is huge... don't you think so?
One of my favorite parts of the video is how Paul enjoys Satch's jam.
Posted by: Phil66 Jan 22 2020, 07:21 PM
I'd get up on stage and and go toe to toe with them, show 'em a thing or two, I've got some brilliant engineering licks and tricks, they may not be impressed but I'd show em a thing or two
Posted by: klasaine Jan 22 2020, 10:37 PM
Eric Johnson and Scott Henderson can match them. Probably Guthrie Govan too ... but they don't play Ibbys 😆.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 22 2020, 10:49 PM
Being good at improv is a really tough thing these days partly because of the tech as mentioned. It's so easy to edit mediocre playing together in a daw to sound like it's rather good playing. When doing improv, there is nowhere to hide. You can't go back and do another take, or use editing tricks, you have to compose something pretty much on the fly and then execute it with style and grace.
As ken mentioned, the rules of the world have changed and don't encourage improv as much as it used to be when music was much more about the live experience, even for small bands, pre streaming, etc. I don't think it will become a lost art simply because there are always a new batch of players who are inspired by great playing and want to be able to express themselves musically. Time will tell
Improv solo work is not only real time composition, but also real time stress testing of ones ability to actually play. It's the real test of a players ability imho. Can they express themselves musically, without a net, so to speak
Todd
This is not a critique is a reality. Being a great improviser is as difficult and requires as much work as being a great composer, and if you want to be good at both you need to dedicate some practice to each.
Guthrie is a KILLER improviser, but I don't think that his compositions are as interesting as things composed by Petrucci or Plini.
What's your side? What do you enjoy more? Improvising or Composing/Producing?
Posted by: jstcrsn Jan 23 2020, 01:27 AM
I love NAMM stuff , her is some wisdom
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jan 23 2020, 08:04 PM
Very nice jam!
Maybe it was easy for the old guys because it was... an old jam! They have done that tune for ~30 years now I think.
When I jam I want to connect the backing - maybe that was not as easy for the younger generation.
I also get a feeling the young guys/gals were trying to do the instagram thing, where are the older were more interested in actually building towards climax.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 23 2020, 09:38 PM
Well said Those players are also from the old school of practicing one's guts out for decades at a stretch. The old ways do indeed have their place imho The folks on that stage represent tens of thousands of hours of dedicated practice. Time not spent hunting new gear, or chasing distraction, but actual, focused practice. All it takes is about 10k hours they say.
Very good points here. The younger guys did seem to be playingn "instagram guitar" which works best without a band imho. They are all fine players to be sure. Satch/Vai/Gilbert are legendary players for very good reason. They are really that good and they've earned every bit of it. Not being "sped up" in post production, no editing, this is playing live, without a new, in front of a crowd. High pressure, high expectation, and they nail it.
Maybe it was easy for the old guys because it was... an old jam! They have done that tune for ~30 years now I think.
When I jam I want to connect the backing - maybe that was not as easy for the younger generation.
I also get a feeling the young guys/gals were trying to do the instagram thing, where are the older were more interested in actually building towards climax.
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jan 23 2020, 09:50 PM
Yes - and instagram content is typically very far from jamming/improvising - it's about getting a perfect / killer 30 second take. This is of course very difficult and the skill should not be minimised ( I can't do it btw).
Ultimately one would combine that with a more jam based approach - to loosen things up!
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jan 26 2020, 07:20 PM
I can see how young guys are much comfortable here:
Posted by: jstcrsn Jan 26 2020, 09:14 PM
Ultimately one would combine that with a more jam based approach - to loosen things up!
The main thing I see is that they don't know when to not play
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 26 2020, 09:31 PM
they do seem a lot more comfortable doing a bit more of a light jazz thing. Many of them focus on much less gain in their playing so having a less intrusive backing track seems to help quite a bit. In a full on 'Rock Jam", a good bit of gain to help bend/vibrato sing through comes in handy. I do think the guys in Polyphia are killer players in their own right. It's just a very different approach that doesnt' lend itself to the typical Namm Jam. Maybe they will break off the instagram jam next year ?
Posted by: klasaine Jan 26 2020, 09:49 PM
Old guy rant alert!
Maybe they're more comfortable but it just sounds like mindless, out of time wanking to me ... and a lot of questionable note choices. Nobody's playing rhythm. Not one friggin' chord. They're just waiting to play. No real interaction with the drums and bass either. That's not a 'jam'. May as well just have had a backing track. Yuck! Sorry but I draw the line at this amateur BS playing. *The dude with the ball cap is the only one that sort of knows where the time is and actually tells a little story.
Ever have a conversation with someone who's just waiting to talk? That's what this is.
Posted by: jstcrsn Jan 26 2020, 11:42 PM
Maybe they're more comfortable but it just sounds like mindless, out of time wanking to me ... and a lot of questionable note choices. Nobody's playing rhythm. Not one friggin' chord. They're just waiting to play. No real interaction with the drums and bass either. That's not a 'jam'. May as well just have had a backing track. Yuck! Sorry but I draw the line at this amateur BS playing. *The dude with the ball cap is the only one that sort of knows where the time is and actually tells a little story.
Ever have a conversation with someone who's just waiting to talk? That's what this is.
did you see that Wooten video in my earlier post
Posted by: klasaine Jan 26 2020, 11:55 PM
Yes!
That should be mandatory viewing for ANY musician that even thinks that they might want to play with another musician.
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jan 27 2020, 12:58 AM
Aka playing too many notes / not enough silence? You are def right though that disease is chronic for most guitarists! 😅
Maybe they're more comfortable but it just sounds like mindless, out of time wanking to me ... and a lot of questionable note choices. Nobody's playing rhythm. Not one friggin' chord. They're just waiting to play. No real interaction with the drums and bass either. That's not a 'jam'. May as well just have had a backing track. Yuck! Sorry but I draw the line at this amateur BS playing. *The dude with the ball cap is the only one that sort of knows where the time is and actually tells a little story.
Ever have a conversation with someone who's just waiting to talk? That's what this is.
You are spot on here - it's a little like they are waiting for their 1 minute of instagram fame. They should all be bouncing with the music and trying to find pockets where they could complement each others leads. And help build it up towards a climaxe together!
I have said it twice now, I must be getting old as well 👴
Posted by: klasaine Jan 27 2020, 06:15 AM
It happens to the best of us ... inevitably.
Posted by: jstcrsn Jan 27 2020, 01:29 PM
Listen to how many times they "don't " play
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jan 27 2020, 07:14 PM
I love that metaphor. I can see what you mean in the video.
Posted by: klasaine Jan 27 2020, 10:26 PM
Listen to how many times they "don't " play
And the amazing build up to the end!
Acutely demonstrating the very wide chasm between the 'real' thing ... and not the real thing.
There is a bar in the arts. You can choose to ignore it but you'll never be taken seriously if you don't at least try to get close to it.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 28 2020, 04:13 AM
Very true. Some very good points! The instagram guys are all much more in their element when they are doing the instagram thing over a light backing track. The track is just scenery though. They are not doing much with it as ken says. Very much just waiting to play. The isolation of having technology rather than other musicians to jam with seems to be creating more and more of these types of players.
I can appreciate the skill of execution, but I do have to agree that it's a very one sided musical conversation. Just not that interesting.
It's way better than they did on stage with Vai and Satch though. They were just so outclassed that it was almost hard to watch. At least letting them sorta play with each other over a very light backing, they sorta show of what they actually do. E.G. .Instagram shredding
Acutely demonstrating the very wide chasm between the 'real' thing ... and not the real thing.
There is a bar in the arts. You can choose to ignore it but you'll never be taken seriously if you don't at least try to get close to it.
That's why I suggested the "instagram jam" next year at namm
Only instagram players, little or no backing track, etc.I didn't realize til you mentioned it but yeah, bit light on chords!!!!
Maybe they're more comfortable but it just sounds like mindless, out of time wanking to me ... and a lot of questionable note choices. Nobody's playing rhythm. Not one friggin' chord. They're just waiting to play. No real interaction with the drums and bass either. That's not a 'jam'. May as well just have had a backing track. Yuck! Sorry but I draw the line at this amateur BS playing. *The dude with the ball cap is the only one that sort of knows where the time is and actually tells a little story.
Ever have a conversation with someone who's just waiting to talk? That's what this is.
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