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Posted by: steve25 Mar 16 2008, 06:33 PM

Probably most of you have heard of it, it's the video that's currently doing the rounds on YouTube. The clip where the marine throws a dog off a cliff. It's been on the news and everything but for those of you who haven't seen it here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Nx8auRWCk&feature=related

Well what do you think? Is it fake or is it real? Personally i'm not sure, it didn't move a lot but then again they don't when they're picked up by the scruff. They could have put in sound of the dog afterwards and it did seem a bit close but i'm not sure, knowing some people these days it could be real.

Warning - some may find the video upsetting, particularly animal lovers. Also quite a lot of bad language in the comments about the video.
Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 16 2008, 06:44 PM

The dog does look quite real I guess but it didn't move at all and that barking it made sounded fake to me, so yeah, it's probably fake.

Although, I suppose it could be a dead dog that they had found, that would make more sense.

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 16 2008, 06:47 PM

Steve - I've added a warning in case some people are upset by the video. At this point though I'm not going to take any other mod action so as to let a discussion run.

Is it fake or not - ummm don't know though either way it's is as a minimum to me personally a nasty thing to do. If it's real then it's horrid and if it's fake, why do that to upset some people?

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: steve25 Mar 16 2008, 06:54 PM

Tony - i probably should have thought of that first, apologies

There's a lot of uproar about it. We would all like to think that it is fake but you just don't know. The other question i have to ask is what is a puppy doing on a cliff?

Posted by: Duncan Mar 16 2008, 07:47 PM

Made me laugh this whole thing. Yeah a dog getting killed is bad and all that. But there is so much worse stuff going on over there and that doesn't get 400,000 views and comments or whatever. Just because it's a cute dog.

Blatantly fake anyway.

Posted by: dusty Mar 16 2008, 08:26 PM

certainly looks fake, but then again there are some sick ba***rds around, although i must admit to a guilty chuckle.

Posted by: JVM Mar 16 2008, 08:31 PM

Pretty much how I feel.

Posted by: Goliath Mar 17 2008, 12:39 AM

People make these kinds of videos to exploit the oversensitivity of the masses. Hate to tell you but we live in a wussified environment where people have very little to no perspective so they over react to the possibility of something cute dying. I don't think it's real, but the gross over reaction is telling.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 17 2008, 01:16 AM

yea im not sure if its real or not.. if it is w/e if its not w/e.. it shows that our society is unaware of everyday truths and not ready to handle alot of it.. during wars real people die, children die, bombs don't spare cute little puppies either.. this is an over reaction for a dog and an under reaction regarding war its self.

Posted by: Angelica Mar 17 2008, 10:40 AM

As someone says, "Two wrongs don't make a right", just because I'm horrified by war and dead children, doesn't mean I'm happy watching a dog die. I haven't watched it actually. Makes me feel sick.

Posted by: Duncan Mar 17 2008, 01:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzroIquVy0Y

Oh the humanity.

Posted by: Goliath Mar 17 2008, 07:58 PM

Two wrongs don't make a right, but wasting energy crying about something you have no control over isn't going to help either.

Posted by: dusty Mar 17 2008, 08:12 PM

i have been mullet fishing with a shotgun and had a better catch than that

Posted by: fkalich Mar 17 2008, 08:20 PM

I won't lower myself to even view it

I don't trust people who are not disgust by this kind of thing. they may act fine under stable conditions, but you don't turn it on or off. If you are heartless towards animals, under the right circumstances, you will be the heartless towards your own species.

Posted by: fkalich Mar 17 2008, 08:27 PM

good for you.

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 17 2008, 08:45 PM

Absolutely.

One of the sad things is that previously a human quality was to be humane to those in most need of care - human and animal (Heidegger's Sein und Zeit). It seems that in the 'enlightened' world we live in this value has been abandoned. At a sociological level perhaps we now live in a depthless world where society has been corroded (Sennett - The Corrosion of Conformity) to such an extent that the only thing that counts is that we are entertained (Baudrillard - Simulacra and Simulation).

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Guitarman700 Mar 18 2008, 12:12 AM

if thats real, i hope those marines are killed. i dont care how, just let it happen. if its fake, then their just idiots.

Posted by: Duncan Mar 18 2008, 02:05 AM

I can't get over how much I despise you right now.

You're putting the life of a puppy over two human beings?

Posted by: Goliath Mar 18 2008, 02:20 AM

So two wrongs don't make a right but three wrongs does?

fkalich is right, I agree whole heartedly that someone who has the capacity to be so cruel to an animal absolutely will likely harbor few reservations about turning on their own species, but on the same side of the very same coin, you're looking at 3 marines who are being shot at and shooting at other living beings constantly. The reality that they live in is so far from the sheltered lifestyle we all enjoy that they lose touch with things like that. When all you know is death and violence it's kind of tough to just flip on compassion again. Having friends who served in the theater they typically all said it was easier just to kind of switch off and do what was necessary to keep themselves and their friends alive, then when they come back have to re-interface and switch back on.

Of course, it brings up the argument of the civil vs. the savage which is a theme prevalent in pretty much every work of modern literature and which one is "right". Someone who has subscribed to higher education and operates in an academic environment will obviously choose the civil, while someone who is in an environment fraught with risk might opt for the savage more often than not since it serves their ends better. A lot of times it is projection on behalf of the beholder. If someone does exist in an environment where they can reap the benefits of higher education, odds are they lack the skills and instincts to survive in any other sort of environment. You can prescribe to whatever beliefs and ideals you hold lofty but the most human instinct of them all is self preservation: survival. If fulfilling that means performing acts of coldness that color your world view, then so be it. It is easy to judge someone in a situation you have absolutely no frame of reference for, but if you were plunked down in a hostile environment with your wits to protect you, odds are you would steel yourself as well.

Posted by: JVM Mar 18 2008, 02:36 AM

I do feel disgust at this, if it's real. However it's outweighed by a perhaps cynical feeling that every day worse things happen that no one speaks out about. It is easy to speak out and feel outrage from your armchair in front of your computer (I'm not saying this specifically applies to anyone here). I do not think I could classify myself as heartless, towards animals or humans. You may think differently.

The mere fact that we have two sides sitting here pointing at each other and labeling each other with conclusive namecalling is a pretty big sign, IMO, that something is wrong with our perception of this situation.

Posted by: swingline Mar 18 2008, 02:41 AM

Its probably fake but those are the idiots that make all of us other Americans look look crap.

Posted by: JVM Mar 18 2008, 02:43 AM

I can agree with that

Posted by: swingline Mar 18 2008, 02:45 AM

This guy has a pretty good perspective on the deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9xYl_VVBXw&NR=1

Posted by: JVM Mar 18 2008, 02:53 AM

He makes some good points.

Posted by: Guitarman700 Mar 18 2008, 05:08 AM

go ahead and despise me, it just makes you look stupid...
i tend to like animals more than humans, less stupid, more agreeable, and wont stab you in the back at the soonest opportunity.

Posted by: swingline Mar 18 2008, 05:22 AM

Tell that to an 800 pound tiger.

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 18 2008, 05:33 AM

I actually agree with you.... I don't like dogs that much, but still I wouldn't say human life is any more valuable than a dogs life for example, just because I'm a human or humans are more intelligent. This is just my 2 cents, my opinion.

I sure have not been where that marine dude has been, but at this point I would swear on my life I wouldn't throw EVEN a bird off a cliff in his situation....

Posted by: Duncan Mar 18 2008, 02:27 PM

I don't see any way that it makes me look stupid. You have just condemned two people you know nothing about to death merely because they may or may not have killed a puppy. Yet alone to mention the soldiers are actually out there because of your countries current administration.

Different forms of animal cruelty go on around the world everyday, and I bet half of them wouldn't get your 'death penalty'.

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 18 2008, 02:55 PM

Guys,
I said early on that I was going to let the discussion run. However if it is going to descend in to personalised name calling then I will take action. Cool it and discuss without the flaming.
Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Duncan Mar 18 2008, 03:13 PM

Haha I love how my rating has gone down from 5 stars to 3 stars today. And the only visitor to my profile was guitarman700.

Textbook.

Posted by: Guitarman700 Mar 18 2008, 03:18 PM

i didnt do that. unlike you i know how to let things go.

Posted by: Goliath Mar 18 2008, 04:02 PM

Humans ARE more intelligent than "lesser" animals and their capacity for deceit/betrayl is a function of it. I believe animals are smarter than we probably give them credit for, as evidenced by the "ALEX" experiment (African Grey parrot could count objects, understood the concepts of color, shape, size, spatial relation and could answer the questions when asked the difference between two objects), however to suppose that an animal is somehow better for being more primal is an equally ridiculous claim. I don't understand the self loathing that is tought in modern society. People are ashamed of what race they are, what country their from, ashamed that their natural gifts are able to secure them more wealth than others. Why be sorry?
I won't get political, but it wasn't the US just decided to go out one day and start liberating countries, and if you don't acknowledge the failings of the UN that paved the path up until this point then you need more help than I have time to give you.

To wish death on those 3 men for their deed puts you on the same boat as them, whether you can let yourself see it or not. You can justify it however you like as "punishment", but that does not make it just.

Posted by: Duncan Mar 18 2008, 04:06 PM

So your argument is now: "I can't be bothered to argue"?

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 18 2008, 04:11 PM

Duncan and Guitarman700,
I DON"T like repeating myself.

I will say this once more - stop turning this into a personal fight. No more warnings on this.

Tony

Posted by: Guitarman700 Mar 18 2008, 04:13 PM

im not turning this into a personal fight. i said my piece, now im done with this thread.

Posted by: steve25 Mar 18 2008, 04:17 PM

Duncan the word argue i don't think should be in anyones posts here. Of course everyone has different opinions here and i agree with certain parts from different people.

I don't think it's fair that you wish the man to die because he threw a puppy off a cliff or perhaps i should say as far as we know he threw a puppy off the cliff. I'm not totally convinced it's a real puppy but i guess at the moment it doesn't really matter.

This guy is fighting for your country i don't think what a lot of people are saying about him is far. On the other hand i agree that this dog was doing him no harm, it was causing him no threat so why kill it? I agree with a lot of what Goliath has said i think people are going to extremes a little here. I'm not all that bothered by it but i still don't think it's right.

Posted by: Angelica Mar 18 2008, 04:45 PM

Completely agree.

Posted by: MickeM Mar 18 2008, 05:46 PM

Up to one per thousand of the worlds population could suffer from emotional disturbances (counting diagnosis made and undiscovered), AS or whatever similar. These people just can't judge right from wrong without prior learning. Throwing a puppy off a cliff fake or not would imo show lack of empaty not being able to judge that both cases would upset people. By connecting himself with this act by being shown on film to me only tells me that he/they can't measure the vast negativity to their own person and their employer and they can't calculate on the cosequences.

If I were to take a guess this person is disturbed (as in is ill but without diagnosis)


Then it's not strange at all that people react to puppies, babies, children or other defenceless chreatures are killed. They can't defend themselves and should be left in peace. That we feel more for a puppy compared to a rat is that our brain judge what's cute which will add to the factor of "harmlessness", as well as it's a variable what appeals us when looking at the opposite sex, or same sex for that matter. What kind of cureves and particulars appeal us. So by nature we're programmed to think some things are cute (puppies), some things scare us (spiders) and some things are repulsive (rat).

And by nature, watching this video should raise emotions and empathy for the puppy. If now, well... that's not my problem.


Now dinner, then rehearsal with the band. Much more pleasant than this!

Posted by: dusty Mar 18 2008, 07:52 PM

i can see that passions have been really stirred up by this topic and not unreasonably so either and as i have said previously i certainly hope that the video was a fake.

fake or not this video has created such a s**t storm that these guys will have to answer to thier superiors as they ave brought the uniform and thier country in to disgrace with thier behaviour (and this is not a charge that the military takes lightly).

but if you can please try and put your self in the shoes of an ordinary enlisted man in the forces for a couple of minutes.
as it has been for centuries these men sign up to serve thier countries (and the administation at the time) usually because there are no other opportunities available to them at home. so they sign up, get trained (usually minimal) get clothed and fed and paid (again usually minimal) then get sent out to fight somebody elses war.
when these guys get to the front lines they are probably the same people that they were when they joined and they will behave more or less as their mothers recognise them (all be it with a few habits and behaviours picked up from thier squad mates).

but after months on end after being shot at, blown up, watching thier mates being killed and other horrific situations that would keep the average citizen in the western world awake at night for most of their natural lives you could reasonably expect thier outlook on life to have adjusted somewhat.

so naturally what seemed funny to them at th time would be seen as horrific to the rest of us. but then again after spending time in the environment that they have you would start to see all life as cheap and see humour where the rest of the world has seen horror.

it is easy for us to sit at home and pass judgement on the actions of servicemen but if you think that this type of behaviour is new then think again it has gone on before and will continue to do so as long as humans are put in environments of extreme stress such as war, they will display behavoiurs such as this and more that likely be the same men that when thier time is done and they return home, kiss the wife, hug the kids and then take the family dog for a walk.

Posted by: Bogdan Mar 18 2008, 08:13 PM

This clip is just plain stupid and I honestly hope that its a fake!

Posted by: steve25 Mar 19 2008, 12:22 AM

Was reading the comments of the vid earlier and people were saying they found sources of the guy who did it and admitted to doing it and said that it was a real dog that he didn't want to take it back to base with him. I'm yet to find this source though

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 11:09 AM

I'm not on either side of the opinions, I just want to _INTELLIGENTLY_ discuss my opinion. So no flaming, OK?

What do you guys think hurts more - to fall off a cliff or to get eaten by a tiger? Animals eat each other in the wild daily. And no one seems to care. Why are you so concerned about this?

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 19 2008, 11:17 AM

Animals eat animals to survive, thats how nature works.
I dont see the natural order of things by throwing puppies of a cliff....

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 11:28 AM

And who exactly is hurt by the death of one cute dog(unless someone owns it - but that's a different story).

These guys are SOLDIERS, they are supposed to kill people. Shouldn't that bother you more?

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 19 2008, 11:30 AM

But this thread isnt about soldiers killing people.. it's about the dog

Posted by: mattacuk Mar 19 2008, 11:32 AM

Ahhh - this is obviously a very sensitive subject!

which is why im not touching it with a 20 foot pole

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 11:33 AM

Good point, you almost owned me now -.-

The question is: Why should we care about this dog? If it's real, the dog's dead already. And you're probably ain't gonna kick the asses of the soldiers, are you?

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 19 2008, 11:45 AM

Why shouldnt we care about the dog?
I dont understand why some people get so aggressive because someone dont like seeing animals get killed for the sake of fun. (No, i dont like seeing people getting killed for fun either). Why should any of this happen at all?

No need to get hissy

Posted by: Goliath Mar 19 2008, 11:51 AM

I think that people object to the senselessness of it more than the cruelty.

While "Why flip out about a relatively minor occurrence?" is a valid question "why throw a dog off a cliff?" is equally valid again supposing the video is real.

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 11:58 AM

That's prolly true. I have to admit you guys got me on this one.

But still, I think we people from the cities are oversensitive. Some one who grew up slaughtering chicken in a small village probably wouldn't care that much...

Posted by: MickeM Mar 19 2008, 12:10 PM

First off, tigers eating animals, that's natures way and nothing to be bothered about. Still when a big scary tiger grabs a running cute baby antelope that's heart breaking but none of mans business.
When a marine throw a puppy high up in th eair, of a cliff laughing, it would be strange if people didn't react.
It's not all about the dog. We do se a small defenseless puppy getting killed but a big strong marine. We also see a fellow humanbeing torturing an animal. And we see that he's a representative of the US.

If the puppy was already dead for whatever reason it doesn't excuse the act. The intention was to upset and that they managed no matter if the puppy was dead or alive, so say it was dead and we can strike out the torture of an animal - unless that was an act prior to filming. You can compare this to robbing a band with a plastic gun or a real gun, it doesn't matter, point it at the clerk and you'll get the same reaction and the clerk will feel his life is at danger no matter if the gun works ot now. The clerk just can't know.

Still I belive this marine has jeapordized his name and his career. Imagine the bad commercial he alone has given all the marines. People will not say - Oh, how mean he was that dude. But rather - Look at the US soldiers, they are so mean!
So it's not just about him making a prank upsetting a few people kicking a dead dog off of a cliff (assuming it was a dead dog). It's about the negativity the US will get from this.

Soon forgotten possibly but still, does the marines want a bad egg like him who can't concider consequences before acting. I don't think so. You have to think, calculate on consequences and then act. In this case the outcome should have been - The dog is dead, let's NOT pick up the camera and make a funny movie since it may stain the US reputation and I might lose my job.
In another situation a bad egg who can't calculate consequences he could come up with the idea - I better kill this entire family, kids and all since they could be armed, you'll never know.

The puppy, dead or alive when thrown didn't need that.
The US army who's already questioned didn't need that either.
I think this bad egg will get his shell cracked by his superiors. Bye bye.
I for one am sorry they didn't set him aside already during the draft. Then he'd be home filming himself burning ants to death with sun beams through a magnifying glass instead. Hopefully the US army will take care of and treat this nut case, not just send him off.

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 19 2008, 12:11 PM

You are right in that.
I have a farmer in my family, he grew up on the farm and he has a totally different view on "pets" than me. Causes some "fun" discussions every now and then

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 12:14 PM

Okay guys, I'm owned already.

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 12:16 PM

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 19 2008, 12:17 PM

Wise words, indeed. All I wanted to say...

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 19 2008, 12:50 PM

Not necessarily SinoMan.

I live in the campo and my two nearest neighbours keep livestock of all types. Both my neighbours and me and my family have domesticated animals. None of us are wantonly cruel to either livestock or our 'pets'. Indeed my neighbours care for and about their livestock very much - not least as they are their livelihood.

One of my neighbours spent five weeks sleeping in the barn with his sheep this past winter when some of them became infected with a viral disease. He, and his wife, currently are working through the night in shifts to bottle feed their spring lambs. He is 73 years old.

My other neighbour's pet dog was killed outside our house the other week by a car. She was distraught - yet she keeps goats, pigs and chickens for food.

I've slaughtered and plucked chickens, ducks and turkeys for a living in the past. One of our pet cats died two months ago after eating rat poison. My wife and I spent three days nursing and comforting it - giving him injections every four hours, feeding GAC into him and so on. My daughter still goes up our hill to his grave to talk to him.

We may well be more 'matter of fact' about animals in the campo - not least because we have to kill and butcher livestock - but it doesn't mean that we don't care about them a lot.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 01:04 PM

I would cry like a friggin' month if my pet died man...

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 19 2008, 01:15 PM

The worst bit mate was I had to take the decision that it was becoming cruel to carry on nursing the cat as it wasn't getting any better and if it did recover its kidneys and liver would be ruined. I then had to put him out of it and bury him - not nice and not easy. I also then had to tell my daughter when I picked her up from school .

Cheers,
Tony

ps - Steve25 - sorry I've sort of drifted off topic (again )

Posted by: Angelica Mar 19 2008, 02:22 PM

I'm very sick about this thread and hope some mods will close it soon.
I think it damages an happy forum life for all the people who are here to play guitar, and are not here to have fun watching dead animals and thinking they're cool if they do that.
Hope that the youngest, when they'll grow up, realize how stupid and ashaming this behaviour is.
The true "hard men" don't spend time saying how childish is to complain about dead puppies, the true "hard men" instead tend to be protective towards weaker beings, because they're strong.
People who are actually weak and try to seem strong by violent words and behaviours, are normally classified as bullies.
And I think bullies shouldn't be allowed to sicken others' life.
How can I say this? I have a degree in Sociology.
For what concerns tigers, they're one of the species that's now at serious risk of extintion because of human cruelty, the same cruelty that makes some people kill puppies and upload, view and get fun of the videos of their crime on youtube, for years has made hunters go and kill tigers without a reason, just to have a trophy in their living room.
They're like those boys that here in Itlay, some years ago, used to have fun throwing big stones from bridges down on cars and kill people.
This makes me nauseous and now I'll stop here.
I'll go to walk my dog and then to play some guitar, so much better and more useful than getting depressed with issues like this.

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 19 2008, 02:27 PM

Again, wise words, all I wanted to say....

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 19 2008, 02:39 PM

Agreed. I never said it was childish to complain about dead puppies. I just wanted to discuss without flaming.



What does that have to do with the topic? I said I gave up already and admitted that the soldiers shouldn't have done that. Why re-open an already closed issue, especially if that depresses you?

Posted by: steve25 Mar 19 2008, 04:13 PM

Tony - no problem it happens everywhere

So i'm a heartless idiot for opening this topic am i? Or that's the impression i'm getting. Some of you seem to expect soldiers like that to be upset about killing a puppy but think about it, if soldiers got upset from killing something they wouldn't be very good at doing their jobs would they?

Your views aren't going to be everyones views. There are a lot worse things that go on in the forces and war etc but those aren't broadcasted. The terrible things that happen to human beings are barely though of because i guess people know it goes on but people just don't like to show it. As soon as something like this happens it's a huge deal and there's outrage about it.

I can't remember who said it before but someone earlier in this topic mentioned that because it's a "cute" animal it raises the rage. I agree with that, imagine if someone through i dunno.... a snake or a rat of the cliff people would probably care less

Posted by: kaznie_NL Mar 19 2008, 04:19 PM

Yep you're just a big fat LOSER......naaaah.. Sorry just trying to make jokes.. I suck at it... I'm depressed now..all because of this topic....

So, why's everybody overreacting like this? If you don't like to talk about it then just don't read it and post here. Just leave. It's as simple as that.
Sorry if I sound mean to you, but that's just what I tink.

Posted by: steve25 Mar 19 2008, 04:22 PM

Haha i knew it! nah everyone is entitled to their opinions but if you can't discuss sensibly then i agree, don't discuss at all

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 19 2008, 04:29 PM

I have no respect for anyone in the army or anyone who kills or hurts animals. The army is full of murderers. I want peace in the world and will I get it. The simple answer is no as the armies round the world exist to kill each other. If you kill anybody that is murder. Whether they are shooting at you is irrelevent. I detest the army. And people who hurt animals are scum.

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 19 2008, 04:37 PM

Not imo Steve.

BTW - for members who are wondering why I allowed this thread through:

I let the thread run as a moderator as I think and believed then, and still do now, that Steve genuinely wanted a constructive discussion on the issues raised by the news item. Furthermore the OP does not, IMHO, breach any of GMC's Guidelines. To date most of the discussion has been, and people have contributed whether or not they watched the clip. (And the link has had a content warning from the outset .)

As a moderator I watched it in order to know what the contents was and I didn't enjoy it. BUT my distaste then and now doesn't lead me draw a negative conclusion about Steve's character as the OP (or indeed anyone else who has contributed) . Nor did my distaste for what occurs in the clip make me want to censor/refuse the thread.

Censorship is not something I would do lightly btw as it raises many issues concerning power, domination and objectivity. It is furthermore a Pandora's Box - censor something once on the grounds of 'public taste and decency' and where do you stop? I'm of the school of thought that somethings - no matter how ugly (Kristeva, Bataille) - need to be openly discussed otherwise they just fester and poison society as la part maudite (Bataille).

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Duncan Mar 19 2008, 05:46 PM

This is a bit of a naive view really. Do you detest the people who fought in the World Wars? Fighting for what now, is your freedom?

I have a massive respect for anyone in the army. Doing what they do and putting their lives on the line is a massive sacrifice.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 19 2008, 05:50 PM

I detest anyone involved with any war yes. Whatever side they are on. I hate war and suffering and always will. I believe that killing anyone no matter what is wrong. It isn't a sacrifice for me. I'd prefer them not wanting to kill or hurt others.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 19 2008, 05:53 PM

The war in Iraq is illegal and it is wrong. I will stand by that.

Posted by: steve25 Mar 19 2008, 06:17 PM

You don't think sometimes it's self defense where people kill if it isn't their fault? If somebody kills someone else because they literally threatened their life they're bad?

Posted by: Duncan Mar 19 2008, 07:20 PM

Yeah I'm not really gonna go into the Iraq war, as the debate on that has been done a million times.

To hate all soldiers in all wars in insane though! So in WWII you would rather the allied forces has not fought and surrendered Europe to the Nazis?

These people deserve your thanks, not hatred.

Posted by: MickeM Mar 19 2008, 07:36 PM

World wars and soldiers in general is OT. Move back on topic.

Posted by: dusty Mar 19 2008, 07:41 PM

it saddens me to hear this, that you would detest any one who would commit thier life to protect you and your way of life. tell me do you think the same in regards to the police? they risk thier lives every day to make this country a better place to live. it is a sad fact of society today that many of them are armed.

i do agree with you though that war is detestable but unfortunately until some one finds a cure for the human condition war will be around until we as a species are no more. it is a simple sad fact that as a species we are greedy, spiteful, terratorial and very quick to anger and until we evolve to the beyond the point that material wealth and possession is every thing and that one groups point of view is more important or more righteous that another groups we are going to keep killing each other over it and thus we will still need people who are prepared to take up arms to defend those that cannot or will not.

this is the last time that i am going to comment on this topic as it is straying very far away from the original thread in to one that has kept philosophers busy for millenia.

Posted by: fkalich Mar 19 2008, 07:47 PM

well being that I saved the life of a little spider yesterday who fell into the dishwater, I would also care about the rat or snake. rats actually are nice animals, when raised by humans. very sweet and well behaved. snakes keep to themselves, just take care of their needs, won't harm you unless they feel threatened.

I eat meat btw. But not very much. I can't give it up, but I do what I can, try to eat less. You really don't need to eat that much, for example, with chinese stir fry you don't have to use very much at all, and it is still real good.

Posted by: steve25 Mar 19 2008, 07:48 PM

Ok we've strayed away from the topic here lets get back to the original post. Clearly a lot of people are upset that a marine has thrown a dog off the cliff. Is it more to do with that he's a marine? Would there have been the same amount of uproar in the press if a civilian had done it?

Posted by: fkalich Mar 19 2008, 07:54 PM

being a marine just adds an element. but over here, the uproar would be the same in uniform or out. we just put one of the highest paid professional athletes (Mike Vick) into federal prison over dog fighting, animal cruelty is taken very seriously in the US.

edit: not saying that it is not take seriously elsewhere. only can speak for things here. I am a bit proud of myself over how dog fighting was made a federal offense. I was one of those who called my Congressman and Senators to encourage the to support the bill. Prior to that, even though illegal in all states, little was being done to stop it.

Posted by: Duncan Mar 19 2008, 08:33 PM

Why? This debate is finally actually moving away from "this is sick, poor puppy" / "its only a puppy" , to something actually quite interesting.

Posted by: steve25 Mar 19 2008, 08:39 PM

If you want t a discussion about that go and make your own topic

Posted by: Duncan Mar 19 2008, 08:41 PM

Why? The debate in this topic has progressed onto different subjects. So why not continue in here?

Posted by: MickeM Mar 19 2008, 08:49 PM

Thread locked