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GMC Forum _ GEAR & PRODUCTION _ How Important Is The Guitar Brand?

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Apr 5 2013, 11:20 AM

I have heard a lot of times the expressions that we "pay extra for the brand name on the headstock" and also the completely oposite ones where "name doesn't matter at all".

What is your opinion?
How much are those letters on the headstock important to you when deciding on buying a new instrument?

Posted by: PosterBoy Apr 5 2013, 02:35 PM

Hmmm

Depends on the name on the headstock. Some represent companies of really good quality and customer service.
The whole Gibson/Fender type name means little to me, they are trading on heritage more than current values.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Apr 5 2013, 02:44 PM

Getting a guitar with a popular brand name makes it easier to sell if you decide to do it. If you don't have in mind this, then the most important is that you feel comfortable with the guitar and you like the tone, nothing else matters.

Posted by: PosterBoy Apr 5 2013, 02:46 PM

That's true Gab, I have never thought about re sale value and ease when buying a guitar, it's almost like entering marriage with a prenup!

Posted by: klasaine Apr 5 2013, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Apr 5 2013, 05:44 AM) *
Getting a guitar with a popular brand name makes it easier to sell if you decide to do it. If you don't have in mind this, then the most important is that you feel comfortable with the guitar and you like the tone, nothing else matters.


We've sort of talked about this before in the 'custom' guitar (as in, what would want in a ... ) thread.
If you have money and you just don't care about re-sale value then no, it doesn't matter - and it shouldn't. But if you think you might want to sell it you better think about it or pray that some soon to be famous guitarist (maybe even you?) uses it.

One of my best playing/sounding axes is an Ibanez. And though it has slightly increased in value (it's 1979 335 rip-off model) it would't bring a 10th of it's Gibson counterpart in resale value. Even though most Gibson 335s of that period are probably some of the biggest POSs on the planet.

I cut my teeth in the 70s and 80s and I can tell you first hand that 90% of most Fenders and Gibsons manufactured during those 20 years are substandard instruments - but they command HUGE resale prices these days. History and Name association/recognition. 'Historicity' as Phillip K. Dick called it.

For me, if the new instrument is even a little pricey - I won't consider it unless it has a 'name' on the headstock.

Posted by: Fran Apr 6 2013, 11:39 AM

The thing about brands is that many times they have become icons, something we've seen in the hands og so many guitarists and bands we enjoy, and that makes us own one too.

Who doesn't love a strat, a tele, Les Paul, SG... they have become more than guitars they are now part of rock history and popular culture.

And that's why many of us like to have a certain brand name guitar.

Having said that, and maybe because I already know how Gibson, Fender and others feel, if I had to keep just one guitar one it would be my Ibanez!

Posted by: PosterBoy Apr 6 2013, 12:52 PM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 5 2013, 05:32 PM) *
We've sort of talked about this before in the 'custom' guitar (as in, what would want in a ... ) thread.
If you have money and you just don't care about re-sale value then no, it doesn't matter - and it shouldn't. But if you think you might want to sell it you better think about it or pray that some soon to be famous guitarist (maybe even you?) uses it.

One of my best playing/sounding axes is an Ibanez. And though it has slightly increased in value (it's 1979 335 rip-off model) it would't bring a 10th of it's Gibson counterpart in resale value. Even though most Gibson 335s of that period are probably some of the biggest POSs on the planet.

I cut my teeth in the 70s and 80s and I can tell you first hand that 90% of most Fenders and Gibsons manufactured during those 20 years are substandard instruments - but they command HUGE resale prices these days. History and Name association/recognition. 'Historicity' as Phillip K. Dick called it.

For me, if the new instrument is even a little pricey - I won't consider it unless it has a 'name' on the headstock.


That's why I play a 1982 Burny Les Paul !

Posted by: klasaine Apr 6 2013, 06:39 PM

QUOTE (PosterBoy @ Apr 6 2013, 04:52 AM) *
That's why I play a 1982 Burny Les Paul !


In the states Burnys and Grecos command pretty good prices (if it's known that that's what they are). Probably because 1) they started doing the high quality knockoff thing years ago and 2) a lot of high profile players admit to using them (Slash being the most vocal advocate early on).

*Many many players have replicas - but with the 'correct' decal on the headstock.

Posted by: dcz702 Apr 6 2013, 08:18 PM

I love fenders, and gibsons. I wouldn't be taken to the music store and pay full price. I have bout all my guitars second hand for a good deal.
The fender select is gorgeous, like art. Sam ash has got it for 1300 us because of over stock, and I think I have to get it, my girls gonna chew me out but I gotta have it. Don't know why but when it comes to other guitars I just love the way fenders feel and look. When I step in my house the first thing I look at is my guitars on the wall. Even a well playing guitar that's cheaper doesn't do it for me. I just like looking at them as much as playing them. I want to collect them and have them forever.
But I do agree with people saying they are over priced. And Sam ash selling a guitar for 700 less than what it usually sells for shows that the price is jacked up

Posted by: lothomer Apr 6 2013, 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Apr 5 2013, 01:44 PM) *
Getting a guitar with a popular brand name makes it easier to sell if you decide to do it. If you don't have in mind this, then the most important is that you feel comfortable with the guitar and you like the tone, nothing else matters.



I agree with you Gab. The brand of the guitar definitely determines the resale value of the guitar. But thats the second question.
First one is: How does a brand of a guitar and a guitarhero who plays that kind of guitar influence me in my decision to buy that guitar.
For example: Years ago i decided to buy a Fender Customshop Strat 60 reissue. I ordered that guitar in colour Olympic white as far as my formerly guitarhero Thomas Blug played a original 61 Strat. Same day i ordered the guitar, the shopmanager offered a original refinished 65
Strat to me. Dump ass me - i didn't buy it, cause of the colour 3 tone sunburst what reminds me of Country Players (yehaw!). Stupid me ... i missed a awesome deal for some bucks more.

A friend of me invited me some months ago for a special guitar blind audition. The deal was: Find your own voice on guitar, your own sound and the sound that you like (not what you like to see in your hands). We had around 20 different guitars to choose (most of them Strattype guitars). The playing musican had his eyes blindfold so that he couldnt see the instrument. Always the same Amp (Marshall JVM 410 H with clean, crunch and leadtone). Very interesting experiment what i can recommend to everyone. Suddenly the Cheapoguitar didn't sound so bad anymore, the expensive top of the line Customshop guitar did not win the race. Have to try that by yourself.
Yes i recognized my two main guitars among all of the others, as far as i'm very used to those guitars. When buying a new axe im thinking about buying it blindside - just "listening to my ears, not listening to my eyes"



Posted by: thefireball Apr 6 2013, 10:43 PM

I'm not a Fender guy - I will say that. biggrin.gif That don't really produce the style of music I go for. Ibanez is more like it. But there are many more - it's really what the company offers in terms of what the guitars sound, feel, and look like. If I don't like the way a guitar looks - i won't pick it up. I am very image-biased when it comes to guitars. If I like the way it looks, then I will pick it up and try it.

Sometimes I will be drawn to a company if a musician I like has one. biggrin.gif Like when I bought a Jackson SLSMG exactly like http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/instructor/Trond-Vold/

There are companies likehttp://www.mayones.com/ and http://www.skervesen.eu/ guitars - such beautiful guitars but are way out of my price range.




Posted by: jstcrsn Apr 7 2013, 01:31 PM

I have a schecter hellraiser( about 2 years old), it has completely ruined all my other guitars.
so if all schecters play like this one, brand will matter
of course , my problem you all know about is being left handed , I can't just walk into a store and try another one out

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 7 2013, 02:12 PM

Yes - guitar brand determines some quality level that cannot be downgraded below some thin border line but...Guitars are not something really repeatable and what I found through years of playign is that when You have more expirience with high end guitars You can also more objectively appreciate some cheap producionts of no-name trademarks. Funny thing that mentioned Mayones and Schecter guitars are on my top guitars list. It depends of how much You have got to spend on guitar but if it's quite small ammount of money...Schecter is a killer choice smile.gif Anyway I've owned a few of them and after some pretty cheap improvements those were studio quality guitars. But... As those cheap series where new in europe...those were better guitars than the current production - I mean the range of 200-300 $. Anyway...diamond series is still a taugh one as competition for other producers.


Currently I don't look at trademarks. Lately some guy from my neighbourhood made a strat for somewhere about 300$ and...this guitar smashed my face....I think I'm gonna order one.

Posted by: korblitz Apr 7 2013, 02:27 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 7 2013, 02:12 PM) *
But... As those cheap series where new in europe...those were better guitars than the current production - I mean the range of 200-300 $. Anyway...diamond series is still a taugh one as competition for other producers.


Do you mean the http://www.schecterguitars.com/SGR/Default.aspx?


Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 7 2013, 02:33 PM

Nope...I mean Diamond series - like Omen 6, Omen Extreme, 006, etc smile.gif I had a few old And I have an acces to many new productions as I work at music shop and new ones had some fret leveleling isssues.

Posted by: korblitz Apr 7 2013, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 7 2013, 02:33 PM) *
Nope...I mean Diamond series - like Omen 6, Omen Extreme, 006, etc smile.gif I had a few old And I have an acces to many new productions as I work at music shop and new ones had some fret leveleling isssues.


Have you tried those SGR guitars by Schecter?

I thought they stop making the Omen 6 and Omen Extreme or anything under the Diamond series.

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 7 2013, 03:09 PM

Omen 6 and Omen Extreme whre from diamond series...that's what is weird - We speak about series and it's a na amount from 300$ to 1000$...I have't opportunity to play SGR yet

Posted by: Slavenko Erazer Apr 7 2013, 03:34 PM

I would never buy a guitar with a word Mayonaise written all over the Headstock.
Don't think that they're bad, just simply couldn't buy it at all!!

Posted by: thefireball Apr 7 2013, 05:52 PM

QUOTE (Slavenko Erazer @ Apr 7 2013, 08:34 AM) *
I would never buy a guitar with a word Mayonaise written all over the Headstock.
Don't think that they're bad, just simply couldn't buy it at all!!

It's a different spelling than the condiment mayo. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Headbanger Apr 7 2013, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (thefireball @ Apr 7 2013, 05:52 PM) *
It's a different spelling than the condiment mayo. biggrin.gif

'
I wonder how much brand does matter now that you said that...If you had a guitar like that, I don't think it would matter if it had 'Tomato Ketchup' written on the headstock! smile.gif

Posted by: Slavenko Erazer Apr 7 2013, 06:36 PM

QUOTE (thefireball @ Apr 7 2013, 05:52 PM) *
It's a different spelling than the condiment mayo. biggrin.gif


You know what i've meant wink.gif

Posted by: klasaine Apr 7 2013, 06:50 PM

I think the point of some the responses about the very real 'impact' of a particular word on the headstock is when one does go to re-sell an instrument.
It doesn't matter if it costs 3500 euros ... if it doesn't have a recognizable name on it, you won't get 1/4 of that in resale (unless you find the very specialized buyer) - full stop. If you're gonna spend serious dough on a guitar, and you're not super wealthy(?) - it's definitely worthy of consideration.
*Ibanez, Shecter, Suhr, Tyler, PRS, etc. - these absolutely do count as 'names' now (they have history, known quality and many famous endorsers). They may not rise in value like USA made Fender and Gibson but you won't lose money on them.

Posted by: Maxisoft Apr 7 2013, 07:28 PM

I recently got my hands on a Tokai Love rock.... On a par with a Les Paul in my humble opinion and an awesome tone...

Posted by: korblitz Apr 7 2013, 08:19 PM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 7 2013, 06:50 PM) *
I think the point of some the responses about the very real 'impact' of a particular word on the headstock is when one does go to re-sell an instrument.
It doesn't matter if it costs 3500 euros ... if it doesn't have a recognizable name on it, you won't get 1/4 of that in resale (unless you find the very specialized buyer) - full stop. If you're gonna spend serious dough on a guitar, and you're not super wealthy(?) - it's definitely worthy of consideration.
*Ibanez, Shecter, Suhr, Tyler, PRS, etc. - these absolutely do count as 'names' now (they have history, known quality and many famous endorsers). They may not rise in value like USA made Fender and Gibson but you won't lose money on them.


I have to agree with you. The second hand or used guitar market is awesome to get stuff at half the cost. And there's always a big danger in buying used.

When I trade guitars I never get to do all the tests that I want to check if the guitar is ok. That's why I always dealt locally and if any problem arise, I can go and break the legs of the seller. UNfornately, that has never happen.

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 9 2013, 03:43 PM

Indeed that's very sad...especially some of those unnamed ones can do the job much better than many of those popular.

Posted by: klasaine Apr 9 2013, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 9 2013, 07:43 AM) *
Indeed that's very sad...especially some of those unnamed ones can do the job much better than many of those popular.


Yes, sad indeed but that's just the economics of 'things'.

Posted by: Slavenko Erazer Apr 10 2013, 11:03 AM

I Buy only Jackson / Charvel, Kramer and Fender guitars made in the 80's. And can;t go wrong with those!! smile.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 11 2013, 01:39 AM

The "Brand" does help a TON when you go to sell or trade an instrument. If it's something you are buying just because you like it and you never plan on selling it, then it matters a lot less.
For me personally, Brand/Headstock is more about the characteristics of a given axe. From a given vendor, you know roughly what to expect. For example, I wouldn't go trying out every strat in a guitar shop since I know how strat necks generally feel, I'd start with the IBANEZ guitars first. But that's just me smile.gif

For "Boutique" Brands, reputation is everything. If a brand slips on quality they can virtually implode. For example.

HALO GUITARS
*started strong, started to slip on quality (IMHO) and started to sink.

STRICTLY 7 GUITARS
*Also started strong but the controversy over Keith Merrow leaving the company an endorsee because the frets simple popped out of his custom axe, has raised serious questions in the Djent world. I"ve asked to try one out from the owner so I can make a vid and give an honest assessment.

DAEMONESS
*Quality beyond reproach. As a matter of fact, the guy that makes them is so particular about them, that he won't sell you one if he doesn't think your "worthy". A bit snooty sure, but nobody ever said greatness was easy.


Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 12 2013, 12:34 PM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Apr 11 2013, 01:39 AM) *
The "Brand" does help a TON when you go to sell or trade an instrument. If it's something you are buying just because you like it and you never plan on selling it, then it matters a lot less.
For me personally, Brand/Headstock is more about the characteristics of a given axe. From a given vendor, you know roughly what to expect. For example, I wouldn't go trying out every strat in a guitar shop since I know how strat necks generally feel, I'd start with the IBANEZ guitars first. But that's just me smile.gif

For "Boutique" Brands, reputation is everything. If a brand slips on quality they can virtually implode. For example.

HALO GUITARS
*started strong, started to slip on quality (IMHO) and started to sink.

STRICTLY 7 GUITARS
*Also started strong but the controversy over Keith Merrow leaving the company an endorsee because the frets simple popped out of his custom axe, has raised serious questions in the Djent world. I"ve asked to try one out from the owner so I can make a vid and give an honest assessment.

DAEMONESS
*Quality beyond reproach. As a matter of fact, the guy that makes them is so particular about them, that he won't sell you one if he doesn't think your "worthy". A bit snooty sure, but nobody ever said greatness was easy.



About the last one...Maybe it sounds ridiculous but i think I get the point of this guy...Pople judge guitar very fast...I someone uploads poor playing vid or audio it will touch the tradmark anyway...So if You have only some good players as a users that creates good image of Your work ...even it seems to be unfair for people who just want You guitar smile.gif))

Posted by: Headbanger Apr 12 2013, 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 12 2013, 01:34 PM) *
About the last one...Maybe it sounds ridiculous but i think I get the point of this guy...Pople judge guitar very fast...I someone uploads poor playing vid or audio it will touch the tradmark anyway...So if You have only some good players as a users that creates good image of Your work ...even it seems to be unfair for people who just want You guitar smile.gif))


I think he won't sell many guitars then...Theres a lot of bad players about and not so many 'good' ones. Maybe everyone has to start somewhere and if a starter player was refused permission to buy one of these guitars and then turns out to be the next amazing player...maybe he/she will not decide to endorse that make in the future. I hate snobbery.

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 12 2013, 01:53 PM

QUOTE (Headbanger @ Apr 12 2013, 01:06 PM) *
I think he won't sell many guitars then...Theres a lot of bad players about and not so many 'good' ones. Maybe everyone has to start somewhere and if a starter player was refused permission to buy one of these guitars and then turns out to be the next amazing player...maybe he/she will not decide to endorse that make in the future. I hate snobbery.



That's also a good point. Any kind of factory attitude has some good and bad results...

Posted by: klasaine Apr 12 2013, 03:57 PM

QUOTE (Headbanger @ Apr 12 2013, 05:06 AM) *
I think he won't sell many guitars then...Theres a lot of bad players about and not so many 'good' ones. Maybe everyone has to start somewhere and if a starter player was refused permission to buy one of these guitars and then turns out to be the next amazing player...maybe he/she will not decide to endorse that make in the future. I hate snobbery.


He's not unique in that attitude at all. Especially in the specialized, boutique market of 'luxury' (considered non-essential) goods.
There are amp and pick up builders who do the same.
I had a famous pick up guy (who will remain nameless because I like him) refuse to wind me a pickup because he felt I wasn't matching it properly with the other two pkups already in the guitar - laugh.gif

One of the most famous/notorious amp builders of all time constantly turns down potential customers or makes the price so prohibitively high that they balk - or, they say "yes" and at that stupid price he just builds it for them.

You can say they're snobs or, you can say they are particular about what they feel would 'cheapen' their product and by extension their name. They are free to sell to whom they choose. A byproduct of capitalism is that the seller doesn't have to sell to you just as you don't have to buy from them.

Posted by: lothomer Apr 14 2013, 05:39 PM

QUOTE (Slavenko Erazer @ Apr 7 2013, 02:34 PM) *
I would never buy a guitar with a word Mayonaise written all over the Headstock.
Don't think that they're bad, just simply couldn't buy it at all!!



Mayonaise? I like it on french fries



 

Posted by: Headbanger Apr 14 2013, 08:19 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 12 2013, 02:53 PM) *
That's also a good point. Any kind of factory attitude has some good and bad results...


Thats true Darius.


QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 12 2013, 04:57 PM) *
He's not unique in that attitude at all. Especially in the specialized, boutique market of 'luxury' (considered non-essential) goods.
There are amp and pick up builders who do the same.
I had a famous pick up guy (who will remain nameless because I like him) refuse to wind me a pickup because he felt I wasn't matching it properly with the other two pkups already in the guitar - laugh.gif

One of the most famous/notorious amp builders of all time constantly turns down potential customers or makes the price so prohibitively high that they balk - or, they say "yes" and at that stupid price he just builds it for them.

You can say they're snobs or, you can say they are particular about what they feel would 'cheapen' their product and by extension their name. They are free to sell to whom they choose. A byproduct of capitalism is that the seller doesn't have to sell to you just as you don't have to buy from them.

I think you've made some good points Ken..I suppose these guys just stay small and sell to a few for a lot of money or good exposure..I'm in the group who wouldn't get sold one of those guitars...but I'm also in the group who is happy with My Epiphone instead of a Gibson.

Posted by: dcz702 Apr 15 2013, 05:51 AM

End of first week with a new fender select strat and it was worth it. So I'd say it matters. smile.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 16 2013, 01:36 AM

That's true smile.gif He's a very small vendor, a one man shop basically @ DAEMONESS so he doesn't make that many instruments each year and rarely sells them off the rack. Most are custom, "one off" axes. That cost quite a bit. When you are making something at that level and only making a few of them, you can charge whatever you like and be pretty picky about the clientele. I'll probably never own one just because of the expense. I'd like to have one sure smile.gif But I just hate putting that much money in to one piece. I like to try lots of gear, guitars, so I tend to spread it around. But that's just me smile.gif Some folks will save for years for their custom axe, wait several more years to actually get it, then be buried with it.


I read that Keith Merrow for example waited 4 years for his BERNIE RICO Jr. Custom Axe. Then I started hearing that Bernie has had some sort of mental melt down and that folks are worried they may never see their guitars.


Todd

QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 12 2013, 10:57 AM) *
He's not unique in that attitude at all. Especially in the specialized, boutique market of 'luxury' (considered non-essential) goods.
There are amp and pick up builders who do the same.
I had a famous pick up guy (who will remain nameless because I like him) refuse to wind me a pickup because he felt I wasn't matching it properly with the other two pkups already in the guitar - laugh.gif

One of the most famous/notorious amp builders of all time constantly turns down potential customers or makes the price so prohibitively high that they balk - or, they say "yes" and at that stupid price he just builds it for them.

You can say they're snobs or, you can say they are particular about what they feel would 'cheapen' their product and by extension their name. They are free to sell to whom they choose. A byproduct of capitalism is that the seller doesn't have to sell to you just as you don't have to buy from them.


Posted by: SpaseMoonkey Apr 16 2013, 06:52 PM

To me when I see words like Gibson I think of not so much the name but the heritage of the music. It makes me think of good ol southern rock with a nice thick sound. As an instrument I think of a heavy guitar with a oversized thick neck, which in retrospect that's very true. Fender I think of blues/country, but also single coil/twangy guitars. Yet again very true. Ibanez I see a stock guitar used for metal with necks that are paper thin. Jackson/Bc Rich/Schecter/Dean is the same as the Ibanez just a slightly thicker neck.

To me it gives a validation of what I may be buying and what sort of style it is mainly used for, tho anything can be used for everything, just some better than others. Plus if you follow me at all you will know it seems once a month I have a new guitar. laugh.gif Sadly this is almost true. Since I just got a 7 and now I'm currently staring down Guerilla guitars. It's not a normal house hold name but they make a 27" scale 6 string with what seems to be close to Ibanez specs for the neck as in thickness.

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Apr 17 2013, 12:20 AM

I like brands so it does play a role when I'm looking for an instrument. I also value looks a lot! smile.gif
Of course, for me the sound is the final factor that either makes or breaks the deal.

I'm pretty sure that we sometimes do "pay for the name on the headstock" but its not a general rule. Instruments are so much different from each other (even when its the exact same model/brand). It all comes down to pairing the ears and instrument for me.

Now this is a bit of different topic but kinda related : custom guitar vs famous brand
There are cons and pros here for both but I never actually had a desire to get a custom guitar. Maybe because I do not trust the local luthers available in my area, but it ultimately feels like a gamble to me.

I look at it like this : luther has certain experience, skill, art etc. The instrument he makes can be my dream guitar but also it can just sound "not that good". That would be a worst case scenario : what if my dream guitar just doesn't sound like one?! I custom made it, choose everything - I need get it and play, right? smile.gif

On the other hand we have famous brands like Fender and Gibson and they have been in the business of making guitars for such a long time. Then invented so many guitars. They have much more resources to invest into research, testing and everything. This gives me confidence that the product is from a design point of view pretty refined. Main advantage : I can just try out dozens of Fender guitars till I find the ONE that sounds and feels just right. I can play it before I buy it!

It might not have the exact exotic wood combination and crazy pickups but the sound and feel will be there.... smile.gif

p.s. I've also seen some really ridiculous guitars made by luthers here so my opinion might be influenced by "child trauma" from the past smile.gif

p.p.s. I'm not bashing on luthers in general or luthers locally here - there are many instruments out there that turned out amazing, look amazing and sound beautiful! smile.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 17 2013, 01:25 AM


Good points smile.gif The inability to actually try out a really expensive custom guitar is a big drawback IMHO. Until you play it, you won't really know if you like it. Even if you play one thats close, each custom is a hand built job so it might be a tad different at similar specs.

If considering a custom, it's really important to do ones homework and to try to get your hands one thats as close as possible to what you are thinking about buying. You can't really bop down to the local store and try a Daemoness or Strictly 7, etc. so it's a real challenge to get the info you need.

With known brands, like Ibanez, Fender, Jackson, etc. Towards the bottom of the price range, most are made in the same factory believe it or not, by the same people. It was all done in Korea for a while, now India does more. But since it's factory production, you can get pretty standardized results.

Once you get in to higher end axes, even from Fender, Jackson, Ibanez etc. Many are hand made and or from the "Custom Shop" owned by the vendor. At which point, you are back in Luthier land. It's true that some of the best luthiers around work for these shops. So the results are usually quite good. But with a smaller shop, maybe even a one man shop, how can you know until you try it out?

Something worth considering before any guitar purchase smile.gif

Todd

QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Apr 16 2013, 06:20 PM) *
I like brands so it does play a role when I'm looking for an instrument. I also value looks a lot! smile.gif
Of course, for me the sound is the final factor that either makes or breaks the deal.

I'm pretty sure that we sometimes do "pay for the name on the headstock" but its not a general rule. Instruments are so much different from each other (even when its the exact same model/brand). It all comes down to pairing the ears and instrument for me.

Now this is a bit of different topic but kinda related : custom guitar vs famous brand
There are cons and pros here for both but I never actually had a desire to get a custom guitar. Maybe because I do not trust the local luthers available in my area, but it ultimately feels like a gamble to me.

I look at it like this : luther has certain experience, skill, art etc. The instrument he makes can be my dream guitar but also it can just sound "not that good". That would be a worst case scenario : what if my dream guitar just doesn't sound like one?! I custom made it, choose everything - I need get it and play, right? smile.gif

On the other hand we have famous brands like Fender and Gibson and they have been in the business of making guitars for such a long time. Then invented so many guitars. They have much more resources to invest into research, testing and everything. This gives me confidence that the product is from a design point of view pretty refined. Main advantage : I can just try out dozens of Fender guitars till I find the ONE that sounds and feels just right. I can play it before I buy it!

It might not have the exact exotic wood combination and crazy pickups but the sound and feel will be there.... smile.gif

p.s. I've also seen some really ridiculous guitars made by luthers here so my opinion might be influenced by "child trauma" from the past smile.gif

p.p.s. I'm not bashing on luthers in general or luthers locally here - there are many instruments out there that turned out amazing, look amazing and sound beautiful! smile.gif


Posted by: Headbanger Apr 17 2013, 10:33 PM

I think that a summary of this thread from what I have understood is that nobody really relies on a guitar, either custom or brand named until they try it...so therefore making the brand name not that important...Because everyone seems aware that PRS, Fender, Gibson, Ibanez etc etc can make awesome guitars...but they can also make awful ones.....therefore rendering one brand name no better than another....or am I misunderstanding something....i.e. if you have Gibson or PRS on the headstock you will get a good resale value...even if its one of the 'Awful' ones???? I don't think so.... smile.gif

Posted by: klasaine Apr 17 2013, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (Headbanger @ Apr 17 2013, 02:33 PM) *
PRS, Fender, Gibson, Ibanez etc etc can make awesome guitars...but they can also make awful ones.....therefore rendering one brand name no better than another....or am I misunderstanding something....i.e. if you have Gibson or PRS on the headstock you will get a good resale value...even if its one of the 'Awful' ones???? I don't think so.... smile.gif


If you have Gibson or Fender on the headstock, especially a 'made in the USA' version, you will never lose money no matter how much of a POS it is (as long as it's in decent condition and you have all the original parts and it hasn't been refinished).
There are literally thousands of miserable playing/sounding Strats, Teles, SGs, LPs, etc. from the 70s and 80s that sell for huge dough. Rarely less than double what they went for new. Usually triple.
Ibanez, if they're MIJ are creeping up. PRS so far 'holding' value.

Posted by: Headbanger Apr 17 2013, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 18 2013, 12:48 AM) *
If you have Gibson or Fender on the headstock, especially a 'made in the USA' version, you will never lose money no matter how much of a POS it is (as long as it's in decent condition and you have all the original parts and it hasn't been refinished).
There are literally thousands of miserable playing/sounding Strats, Teles, SGs, LPs, etc. from the 70s and 80s that sell for huge dough. Rarely less than double what they went for new. Usually triple.
Ibanez, if they're MIJ are creeping up. PRS so far 'holding' value.


Obviously there are more mugs in the world than I thought.

Posted by: klasaine Apr 18 2013, 01:14 AM

Yes ... and no.
An american made Gibson or Fender will always increase in value (whether they're actually a good guitar or not is irrelevant at this point). And so far, history has not demonstrated otherwise.
You could/can always find deals on the odd ball models but then eventually some rock star or soon to be rock star plays it and it becomes 'desirable' ... and then the price goes up.
Jaguars, Starcasters, Jazzmasters and 'silver burst' Les Pauls are perfect examples.

*If you see an amazingly burning guitarist that you know is going to make it - and they play an Aria 'pro II' or Ibanez 'Talman' (or whatever) ... buy 3 of them ... now!

Posted by: Headbanger Apr 18 2013, 08:47 AM

This is a very open topic as the view point of a guitar brand must change depending on whether you have bought the guitar to play well or just as an investment or both.

Posted by: Slavenko Erazer Apr 18 2013, 09:13 AM

QUOTE (lothomer @ Apr 14 2013, 06:39 PM) *



Mayonaise? I like it on french fries



Yes, but no MAYO on guitarse , it's bad for fretwork !!! tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif



QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 18 2013, 02:14 AM) *
Yes ... and no.
An american made Gibson or Fender will always increase in value (whether they're actually a good guitar or not is irrelevant at this point). And so far, history has not demonstrated otherwise.
You could/can always find deals on the odd ball models but then eventually some rock star or soon to be rock star plays it and it becomes 'desirable' ... and then the price goes up.
Jaguars, Starcasters, Jazzmasters and 'silver burst' Les Pauls are perfect examples.

*If you see an amazingly burning guitarist that you know is going to make it - and they play an Aria 'pro II' or Ibanez 'Talman' (or whatever) ... buy 3 of them ... now!



Yes, but fender and Gibson guitars are the ones that Cut-thru best in the mix... after all the 90 % of rock music is recorded with Gibson ,does that mean anything?

Yeah, some amazingly burning guitarist will have crappy sound on Aria , Mayo, and other guitar of that kind, i agree. cool.gif

Posted by: klasaine Apr 18 2013, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (Headbanger @ Apr 18 2013, 12:47 AM) *
This is a very open topic as the view point of a guitar brand must change depending on whether you have *bought the guitar to play well or just as an investment or both.


Exactly!
I guess my point in the discussion is that's it's something to think about ... i.e.,
If you buy an expensive instrument (OK, that's relative depending on your personal situation) do you think that maybe someday you 'may' want (need?) to sell it? That's all a big 'IF' - ? You have to ultimately make the choice.

*Ever since the mid 70s american luthiers knew there was a need for higher quality instruments than those being offered at the time by the 'big 3' (fender, gibson, martin). Hence Charvel, Jackson, Alembic, Paul Reed Smith, Taylor, Santa Cruz, Bourgeois, Pensa Suhr, BC rich, Heritage, G&L, etc. Amps too - Boogie, Matchless, Jim Kelley, Dumble ...

For whatever ( un-warranted, illogical, comforting, reminiscent and even dumb) reasons those Big 3 companies still command the highest re-sale value, as well as the historically cultural cache that goes with that.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Apr 27 2013, 12:34 AM

Believe it or not. Even on an AWFUL instrument, the resale price is higher on awful ones with good names on the headstock than awful ones with crap names, just for the name. Many new players will buy just on the name or because their guitar hero plays a give brand/type of guitar.

More experiences players use the brands/names often as a reference point given that each vendor has certain characteristics across the range in many but not cases. For example many IBANEZ guitars lead toward a thin neck. So if looking for thin necks, I'd check the IBBY's first then move to the ESP, JACKSON, etc.

But yes, it all comes down to you in the end. IT doesn't matter what the brand, cost is if you don't like how it plays. So put that first. Then once you find a few that you like, all things being equal, the branded guitar may resale a bit better smile.gif

Todd




QUOTE (Headbanger @ Apr 17 2013, 05:33 PM) *
I think that a summary of this thread from what I have understood is that nobody really relies on a guitar, either custom or brand named until they try it...so therefore making the brand name not that important...Because everyone seems aware that PRS, Fender, Gibson, Ibanez etc etc can make awesome guitars...but they can also make awful ones.....therefore rendering one brand name no better than another....or am I misunderstanding something....i.e. if you have Gibson or PRS on the headstock you will get a good resale value...even if its one of the 'Awful' ones???? I don't think so.... smile.gif


Posted by: VikingBlues May 4 2013, 02:18 PM

It's sort of sad that we have to factor in the resale factor when we buy a guitar. But I know that for me it's a reality that it is very likely that a guitarI buy will not be a keeper, whatever the badge. Not sure if it's going the same elsewhere in the world but resale values round where I live are even going down the toilet on the big name guitars - which makes the decision to buy a guitar at all even more difficult. To an extent I think the used prices are going down the pan because the constant new models being churned out by the big businesses mean that all the discontinued lines keep getting sold off in the stores at reduced sale prices.

It has to be said though that after five years + of buying and selling on a horribly regular basis that the three guitars I've had with a "big name" label attached have not survived the culls. Also one of the three that survived is effectively a custom job by way of being a partscaster. And all three have only survived due to upgrades to pickups ... and only one of those upgrades has been with "name" pickups. So in that sense I guess I'm in the camp of not being so drawn to buying the big brand name guitars.

The difficulties of judging a custom build were mentioned - that problem of not being able to try them out. The same problem often applies too with pickup upgrades especially if you don't go the big name route. But if my budget could ever stretch to it I'd be rather tempted to go for a custom build than a big name standard production job if the prices were similar.

But all this is too much of a lottery - I'm just thankful I have no pangs at all of GAS for guitars. After my last experience of buying one of the big brands I'm going to look with a very cynical eye at the overpriced products even if they do have a better resale value ... a massively disappointing experience, and I'd rather enjoy the guitars I play for however many years I have left.

If only I had no GAS for other gear! rolleyes.gif


Posted by: Todd Simpson May 7 2013, 01:43 AM

The only way I've found to not lose HUGE money selling guitars is to use EBAY. Trying to sell to GUITAR CENTER will get you next to nothing. It's a given that a music store will offer about a quarter on the dollar or there abouts for a guitar. So $1000 guitar, used, they may sell for $500, so they give you $250. OF COURSE there are exceptions to everything and this isn't a hard fast rule. But as a guideline, it's something to keep in mind when buying an instrument. Buying a NEW Instrument, like buying a NEW car, usually means losing HALF the value when you drive off the lot, or leave the store.

The big exceptions to losing half, are in buying gear that appreciates in value. Sadly, that gear is enormously expensive. Most things bought of the rack are going only one way in price. Down.

So I always suggest buying used. At least you don't get killed on resale that way you do on NEW instruments, not as badly anyway. Also, why I use EBAY. At least you can get near market value out of used gear if you know what your doing and have built up a good rating on the site.

Todd


QUOTE (VikingBlues @ May 4 2013, 09:18 AM) *
It's sort of sad that we have to factor in the resale factor when we buy a guitar. But I know that for me it's a reality that it is ce, and I'd rather enjoy the guitars I play for however many years I have left.

If only I had no GAS for other gear! rolleyes.gif



Good point! I wrote something similar in my previous post. The downside of course is that instruments that appreciate have a VERY VERY high entry point as far as most young/starting players are concerned. When most students get in to guitar (from what I've seen as an instructor) the first time (they sometimes get in to again later in life), they are 14-17 years old and often have to wait for Birthday, Christmas for a guitar. Or have to save up money from a part time job. As a result, most get whatever they can afford/manage. In most cases, this is not an American Made instrument.

But for those earning a good income, with some money to spend, nice guitars can be an investment. If you develop a good eye, you seek out rare instruments/American made strats from the 60's etc. and make good money selling them. smile.gif


Todd



QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 17 2013, 08:14 PM) *
Yes ... and no.
An american made Gibson or Fender will always increase in value (whether they're actually a good guitar or not is irrelevant at this point). And so far, history has not demonstrated otherwise.
You could/can always find deals on the odd ball models but then eventually some rock star or soon to be rock star plays it and it becomes 'desirable' ... and then the price goes up.
Jaguars, Starcasters, Jazzmasters and 'silver burst' Les Pauls are perfect examples.

*If you see an amazingly burning guitarist that you know is going to make it - and they play an Aria 'pro II' or Ibanez 'Talman' (or whatever) ... buy 3 of them ... now!


Posted by: klasaine May 7 2013, 06:58 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ May 6 2013, 05:43 PM) *
So I always suggest buying used.


instruments that appreciate have a VERY VERY high entry point as far as most young/starting players are concerned. When most students get in to guitar (from what I've seen as an instructor) the first time (they sometimes get in to again later in life), they are 14-17 years old and often have to wait for Birthday, Christmas for a guitar. Or have to save up money from a part time job. As a result, most get whatever they can afford/manage. In most cases, this is not an American Made instrument.

But for those earning a good income, with some money to spend, nice guitars can be an investment. If you develop a good eye, you seek out rare instruments/American made strats from the 60's etc. and make good money selling them. smile.gif


Todd


If you do have that bit of extra income I would still suggest buying used (unless you absolutely have to have or need a 'custom' instrument).
Lets say you're a discerning player and you love Les Pauls, you've always loved Les Pauls and your dream is to have a black LP custom with gold hardware, block inlays on the fingerboard, split diamond logo and the 3 play binding. Guess what? New, that's $3500.00 US. For that same dough, or probably less if you're willing to be patient, you can get an xlnt condition early 70's LP that 1) probably sounds better and 2) will be worth more than what just you paid for it in less than a year. Hell, you could probably find a re-fin'd 1968 gold top for $3500.
Conversely and sadly if you buy a Roger Sadowsky or Tom Anderson guitar for $3500 (two well established and well respected builders of fantastic, high end, custom guitars) it will never ever be worth that in re-sale ever again (don't believe me - check ebay 'sold' listings). One is lucky to get a little more than 1/2.

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