Computers -the Devil Or The Saviour? |
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Nov 28 2009, 08:30 AM
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Since I'm an quite old guy around here I've been doing some thinking (yeah, I do that sometimes too...). In the past 30 years or so, there has been a dramatically change in music regarding how people play and the music itself. Of course I know the word evolution, but I think its even a bigger issue than that. Today all musicians seems to play with a more machine-like timing, the tunes are heavily structured and are maybe not so complex as before (in terms of arrangements etc.). I dont put any value in these facts, but in a moment of clear sight I suddenly realized: We have been computerized!
So my basic purpose with this topic is to start a discussion about the computers role in music - eg. playing, composing and if it really has changed anything??? Is it good, bad or does the computer kills creativity? Does all new musicians sounds pretty much the same because of them? Are they an invaluable tool or do they actually kills music? Come on, shoot!!!! //Staffay --------------------  Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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Nov 28 2009, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE (Mark. @ Nov 28 2009, 11:21 AM)  Most people have lost the abilty to read sheetmusic and just read tabs resulting in bad timing Im one of those people  --------------------  |
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Nov 28 2009, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE (Mark. @ Nov 28 2009, 10:21 AM) Im a computer generation guy and I think computers and internet in particular changed alot. If I want to know something, doesnt matter if its about guitar or whatever, I can google it and boom! everything's there. This, in my opinion, is a great because it allows me to learn about something which I without internet would probably have never heard about. On the downside if we want to learn a song we can easily get tabs for it; we dont HAVE to learn anything by ear anymore, though we still can if we have to! Machine-like timing hmm? Maby when playing 16ths or 16th note triplets but not with difficult note groupings or irregular time signatures. Most people have lost the abilty to read sheetmusic and just read tabs resulting in bad timing, fretboard knowlegde and transposing skills. Im also a computer guy, since Im working with it... What I was meaning with machine-like timing is that most of the tracks made in studios today is made by click-tracks which forces the musicians to keep the time exactly. (because that synchronisation etc. has to be made afterwards... of course there are som exceptions...) And maybe some "swing" in the music goes away by playing to a machine instead of keeping the time with a real drummer?? Anyway, its quite obvious if we compare the time-keeping in 70'ths disco music compared to the dance music today, the trend has gone against a more & more "tight" approach in time-keeping, and I must say that personally I both like and dislike it..... //Staffay -------------------- Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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Nov 28 2009, 11:42 AM
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QUOTE (Mark. @ Nov 28 2009, 11:09 AM) This, in my opinion, is a big lack in the music of nowadays things start sounding way to progammed. On topic of composition the biggest difference ( for me ) is that I can 'hear' what I've compossed by putting it in guitar pro. This is a big danger cause it limits the creativity big time and results in music getting even more "computerized" Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it is the computers fault, in my opinion there is a far too technical barrier that most musicians never got over in using computers for composition purposes. Eg. its easier to just let the computer play straight 4/4 than program it to play in uneven signatures and with tempo changes, this is actually a lack of programming knowledge amongst the most musicians (at least the one I know). I've been using Finale for both composing and sheet music tasks, and it is a great program if You learn it well. Another approach would be to use the computer as a "recorder", eg. no click-tracks and only manual input - this is the way Im trying nowadays, to get a more human touch to the music, but on the other hand its very time-consuming and may just suit certain musical styles. I think the computers gives You a lot of freedom - if used right, but also the use of them takes away some of the fun with music - getting together and rehearsal, writing tunes in a band instead of home as well as making especially the poor drummers out of work.....  Its really like balancing on a thin rope.... //Staffay -------------------- Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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Nov 28 2009, 06:05 PM
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Good topic Staffy, I often think about this, and the way technology is changing everything. i often think about music, since this is what I generally do, but I believe anyone that is expert in some field can say this.
About music, well I cannot notice the difference that much as you, as you've been around more, but in general we tend not to think about it, because the difference is ever so slightly, and when you look 20 years ago you really see how much it has been changed. I must say that I don't know what will happen, because if we look back we see that classical music was way more "computer like" than for example trippy 60ties or 70ties, not to mention jazz forms and styles. For me any change is good, and I think currently revolution is going on. Possibly there aren't good bands as there were in the 60, 70, 80, even 90ties, but we are probably currently in some kind of vacuum period where the generation changes are occurring. These changes will be major and we will see results in some 40-50 years probably, when everything completely starts to change for human civilization. Then, music will me much more advanced and integral part of technology and humans. For now, the work is in place to integrate the technology into humans, and then they can start to work together in a much more effective way. Some may not prefer this, but it's the right way in the long run. Music will never die, any kind of music, the music of the last century will become classic and it will be highly appreciated, when electronic (more complex) forms come into light. I'm maybe talking a bit generalized, but it is the future, it is normal that I cannot anticipate any details, but this is what I predict it will occur in our future, and the current changes are part of that process. -------------------- - Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
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Nov 28 2009, 08:58 PM
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An interesting read on the click track: http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/02/in-se...he-click-track/
-------------------- My guitar bits on YouTube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/duathlon70" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/duathlon70</a>
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Nov 28 2009, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (audiopaal @ Nov 28 2009, 07:24 PM) Computers changed the way musicians record and sometimes compose. In my opinion it changed it for the better.. So to me, the computer era and digital gear as a result of it, it is heaven sent  I get more creative knowing I can record whatever I want when I want. Sure, some people will say that the good old days were better with all analog gear, and loads of outboard hardware in the signal chain making the sweet sound of the sixties and bla bla bla.. And that was all good, and still is of course. I like to use both though, as I want the best of both worlds! Recording into my computer, but through a tube amp and a tube mic preamp etc. That way, I ensure that it's not my gear that's making my songs sound bad  Anyway, I talk too much  Hahaaaaa, I also talk to much!! Yeah, I totally agree with You regarding the technical issue here, we can absolutely make greater sounding records soundwise - but what Im aiming at here is the question about the computers are taking away too much of the human touch??? I mean, I can easily learn an Yngwie-type solo at half speed, change it to full speed in my DAW and even use it live for covering up for my bad timing... I think the danger with computers is that it creates a lot of "lone wolves" out there, before it was necessary to have the drummer and the bass player to realize a song. Today, a lousy PC at 800 Mhz does the same job, but the big question is really bout the final product?? In my opinion I had always appreciated live music more than recorded music, and the ultimate proof of that, is if a band sounds BETTER live than on their last record - then there is some progression musical-wise. (i think playing wise of-course, not sound-wise) Unforunately I have been disappointed a lot of times during the last years, since the live concerts I visited had been a lowdown from the studio-albums... with some exceptions of course. At the same time, I personally feel a little bit lucky here since I've been around in the old days as well and can compare the difference... And in my opinion, the musicians today have a much stronger sense for rhythm than in the old days - but on the other hand the music is more "streamlined" and a lot of bands sounds pretty much the same.....Now I also have talked too much!!!!! //Staffay QUOTE (purple hayes @ Nov 28 2009, 08:58 PM) An interesting read on the click track: http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/02/in-se...he-click-track/ Interesting read indeed! But i think that the most serious bands in genres like heavy rock, progressive rock, jazz, jazzrock etc. never uses click-tracks, because their drummers refuses to..... And a really good drummer can make the music really come alive without a click track - on the other hand, for a bad drummer the click track is an invaluable tool..... But the interesting point here is that if we (the other musicians) practice to click-tracks instead of live drummers - then we would we obtain one kind of timing. It may even be so that if we have a bad soundcard with a lot of latency - we adjust our playing according to this, and when we finally play with "real" musicians the playing gonna sound forced.... just a thought.... //Staffay -------------------- Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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Nov 29 2009, 03:16 AM
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Computers have allowed us to overcome some limitations musicians used to have some years ago. This is a positive fact.
It's like the internet, it's given some valuable information open to the public that years back was only available at universities. I think the downside is that some of these software comes with a bunch of presets so that users can make music easily. But in the end it's the musician who has the responsability of making a conscious work or not. -------------------- Visit my:
INSTRUCTOR PROFILE "If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music." Gustav Mahler Subscribe to my Youtube Channel here |
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Nov 29 2009, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (Daniel Realpe @ Nov 29 2009, 03:16 AM) Computers have allowed us to overcome some limitations musicians used to have some years ago. This is a positive fact. It's like the internet, it's given some valuable information open to the public that years back was only available at universities. I think the downside is that some of these software comes with a bunch of presets so that users can make music easily. But in the end it's the musician who has the responsability of making a conscious work or not. Limitations? Have musicians ever been limited??  Nah, of course I see what You mean here.... just kidding!Internet is invaluable to any musician, I remember when I started to play in the 70's, You could'nt even get a decent book at that time. The only thing to do was to listen back to records, we don't even had tape-recorders until the mid 70'ths, so we had to do it the hard way by repeating the same piece over and over on the record player. Nowadays, everything is just out there, makes it very easy to learn and progress. But the low-down is of course that there might be too MUCH information, and that the information is selective/streamlined - eg. it doesn't encourage the player/musician to do their own stuff and pick the things they really like that easily. For me, it was just some 5 bands around in the 70's, Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Van Halen, Queen, Beatles & Stones and Jimi of course. (even that there were a lots of good bands we never heard of...) Now, there is like hundreds of players/bands out there... Yeah, the user presets is something really creative-killing stuff, making all music streamlined..... but also they can be good as a starting point to create your own sounds/songs.... so I guess i have a split vision about these too.... //Staffay -------------------- Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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Nov 29 2009, 11:47 AM
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In my opinion computers are no demosn nore saviours, they are just tools, very efficient and good tools, and it depends on how we use them.
We started recording albums back in the 80's, on "normal" tape mashines, today we only record in Pro Tools, so I know both worlds, and I have to say that I don't miss the old times at all! Todays computer based systems offer you so much more, why should we not use an advanced technology? And I mean USE, not abuse. Of course you can fake everything in Pro Tools, there is auto tuning, there is timing correction, everything can be tweaked, but as I said in the beginning, it depends on how we use such tools. There are many new bands that released albums that were more or less perfect, but then, when they have to play live, suddenly everything collapses... why? Cause those bands have been cheating in the studio and they can't play their own stuff live... This is what I call abusing, but as long as you normally use a very good system I don't see any problem. To give you just one small example what makes a computer system so superior... just imagine recording a solo, you recorded a 45 second take and now you want to listen to it... in Pro Tools this is a mouse click, on a vintage sytsem this means rewinding the tape, you just lose so much time with rewinding tapes all the time... I know, silly example, but true ;-) -------------------- Guitars: various Gibson Les Pauls / Gibson J 45
Amps: Mesa Boogie Tripple Rectifier / Triaxis / 2:90 Poweramp / Rectocabs Effects: Rocktron Intellifex / Rocktron Xpression Homepage: www.marcussiepen.com www.blind-guardian.com Check out my video lessons! |
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Nov 29 2009, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Siepen @ Nov 29 2009, 11:47 AM) In my opinion computers are no demosn nore saviours, they are just tools, very efficient and good tools, and it depends on how we use them. Yeah, In my opinion it's also definitely so, but it depends on what experience the user has of course. Many of the younger players beginning to play today, knows just the "computer way" and starting out by playing to machines. In the area of recording, computers is of course a great tool, but personally I rather play with real human beeings instead of a background on my computer.... Its a really hard topic to evaluate, since no one can say what the music would sound like without computers. But as I said in the beginning of this thread, I find the music of today beeing much more "tight" and streamlined than it was before. Good or bad? It's of course up to the listener.... An another interesting point here is the Internet and the record company's. I truly believe that the importance of the record company's will be more & more less, since You can market Your own music without any companys involved. Also we will face a growing live scene, since the day's when bands/artists could solely live on their record production soon is gone..... (because of MP3 pirating etc.) This will create a demand for good live musicians - eg. those "plastic" artists will more & more disappear, which imo is really an advantage. But its also sad that the "real" artists can't live by selling records.... Also the distribution of music will eventually change, since no one would make a trip to the city to buy a record when they can download it in about 2 minutes.... The real problem here is that a new media is required (maybe FLASH cards???) for the users to transport their music between different devices. The CD-record and format (eg. 44.1 kHz, 16 bit) is imo. already obsolete and has to be replaced by something better. We certainly have an exciting future ahead!!! And now I talked too much.... again!!! //Staffay -------------------- Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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Nov 30 2009, 04:43 AM
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In my opinion, computers had change anything in the music ground. The way to compose songs, the way to practice, the way to record, the way to play them live, anything. I think that most of the long songs of this era couldn't been recorded on the past time, where there wasn't any "copy/paste" option or "stop/record it again/save" stuff. Some of the escence of composing complex music is lost, but I think that there's a lot of great results using computers. Also, the sound has changed and a lot more of other things.
This post has been edited by Santiago Diaz Garces: Nov 30 2009, 04:44 AM -------------------- Check out my lessons!
My Band: Thabu Myspace New Thabu Official Site!! My Websites: http://www.santiagodiazgarces.com.ar Myspace |
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Dec 2 2009, 08:16 AM
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QUOTE (Keilnoth @ Dec 2 2009, 08:06 AM) My computer has just died yesterday ! Can't play guitar anymore ! I haven't practiced so much in weeks as the other day when the GMC forum went down for re-designing.....
-------------------- Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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Dec 2 2009, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (sted @ Dec 2 2009, 10:40 PM) I admit now I didnt read every post so forgive me if I repeat something! Computers are convenient, no question, but it takes away from the music to me and always will. I mean I can sit at my desk and play 200 different amps and effects and theyre pretty good, but what good is that to anyone? I dont meet other musicians, I dont meet other people through meeting these musicians, human beings crave human contact and music has always been the thing that united people in one place for a common love of music. Oh sure YT is brilliant for seeing things that are otherwise inaccessible, but for gods sake get off you backside and go and play with a real person, trust me, its fun!Way more fun than staring at at a DAW all night! I can't do anything than giving You right here! Playing with real human beeings is a lot more fun! But what I've started the discussion with, was the computers impact on music, and the way it will change the way people play. (and already has imo.) //Staffay -------------------- Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60 Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2 Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace |
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