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Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 20 2021, 04:07 AM

This show is getting a LOT of buzz on the interwebs. It's a DANISH show for kids featuring a man with a striped tail? I got a huge kick out of the trailer.

BEN: Have you seen this?
EDIT:" Trailer removed in case it's offensive to folks.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 20 2021, 12:51 PM

So, first of all, I'll just say that it's not his...tail. "Dillermand" is a children slang-word for penis. Then we'll see where this topic goes and Kris can decide what to do with it.

It has got some critics, because it's about a guy who has a very long dillermand, and in some situations he can't control it. That kinda creates a narrative a lot of people are not a fan of, however... it is a children's show, but people are pointing to the fact that it could teach children some "wrong" behaviours.

It's been out for a bit, probably since autumn 2020 if not longer, and I'm not sure if they continue to air it. It's funny to see the reaction from people more so than the show itself, I think, as it's very much different to something shown in the US maybe.

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 20 2021, 08:40 PM

That's perverse. Why would you post something like that here? You got issues, man. As does anyone who tries to rationalize it as being appropriate for children.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 20 2021, 09:07 PM

I think in many ways Denmark in general might be more "liberated" in terms of what is shown and what isn't on TV. Now, I'm not deciding on this one. They've consulted child psychologists and other experts before airing it, and it is supposedly more about accepting differences and different types of bodies, and it has opened up a lot of discussion between kids and their parents about bodies and how to behave, which might not be a bad thing.

Found this link which explains the two sides:

https://www.distractify.com/p/danish-cartoon-john-dillermand

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 20 2021, 09:36 PM

Yeah, I heard all that in the interviews you posted. It's rubbish. There are far better ways to teach acceptance without being perverted.


Yeah, I heard all that in the interviews you posted. It's rubbish. There are far better ways to teach acceptance without being perverted.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 20 2021, 09:45 PM

Also want to point out that it was aired on Danish national public TV called Denmarks Radio (public TV channel), so not an obscure channel or weird YouTube channel.

EDIT:
Also, I want to point out that I don't think the show is about him doing anything bad directly. He ends up in embarrasing situations, apologizes, behaves and does the right thing and if someone tells him to put his "dillermand" away he will do so. I've only watched the first episode, mind you.

EDIT2:
Without condoning John Dillermand, there has been other crazy kids shows throughout time. Ren and Stimpy for instance, I remember watching that as a kid. Slightly different to John Dillermand, for sure, but still (YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED before you watch):

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 21 2021, 02:13 AM

Many of the original episodes of Ren and Stimpy had to be edited because they weren't appropriate for children and when the show was rebranded, it carried a Mature Audiences rating which it should have carried all along.
Also the stories weren't always centered around male genitalia. John Dillermand is completely inappropriate for children, period. And any psychologists or so called experts that say it is appropriate should seek a refund on their education.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 21 2021, 02:51 AM

Still though, I don't know at what age kids get exposed to things on the internet that are maybe more graphic and possible inappropriate for younger kids. There was no internet when I was a kid, well, we didn't have internet till I was around 12. I'm not sure how easy it is for say an 8 year old to stumble upon something, but then again, there's a difference between stumbling and turning on the TV. Then again, I think kids are just watching it for the "funny" value. What the consequences are in the long run I don't know. But from what I know about the show (and what is being said in it in Danish) it's not as in that he's doing anything inappropriate or sexual in any way whatsoever, no real innuendos, such as were seen in Ren and Stimpy at times. I haven't watched more than one episode though as well as having read about it.



Without saying if it's wrong or right, I think it could be worse if he did inappropriate sexual things. Yes, he will steal a vase, cheat in a race, but then realize he's wrong and fix it again, it seems. I've been trying to find subtitles for the show, as I wanted to illustrate that the dialogue in itself is very innocent and harmless imo. But I can't find any videos with subtitles, however there's really nothing sexualising about it, and least of all for a 4-8 year old. To them it's likely just "silliness", however, yes, it can cause some issues further down the line maybe, in regards to what you are in control of. He's always learning to behave though.

All in all, I can't really decide my stance on it. Now I'm not keen on open nudity even in families myself, but it's not uncommon here, and people are quite relaxed in regards to that. It's a long topic to go over, I suppose. My concern is more so the impact it can have in boys going "well, I can't control this or that" and same for girls, as they are talking about a second season with a female lead character. The nudity is what it is, cause I would think any 4-8 year old here has seen another person's penis in a non-sexualised way, such as it is also portrayed in John Dillermand (and that is clothed too).

I think there has been more "clear" innuendos in cartoons, but that is down to us being adults and knowing what they are talking about between the lines, whereas kids won't. In the same way that John Dillermand is just silly to kids and nothing further than that in itself.



Also, apparently we also have a show on TV where everyday people (be that a body builder, trans person, overweight person or your average Joe) strips down completely in front of probably 10-12 year old kids and the kids get to ask any question they want. In a non-sexualized way. To kinda get more acceptance of differences and of their own body image, I suppose. You can find it from a google search with "Ultra Smider Tøjet" and then a link from dr.dk.
EDIT: Just watched a few episodes of "Ultra Smider Tøjet" and it was actually really good and interesting.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 21 2021, 06:40 AM

I found it very creative and a fun show for kids. I didn't see it as "perverse" at all. Sadly, my country is VERY VERY VERY repressed and it comes out in some very negative ways. sometimes it even expresses itself in horrible violence towards people who are different. I do wish we had a bit more liberated society here were we could be body positive in a fun way, like this show is doing, without folks getting so judgemental. we are really good at being overly judgemental as a culture and rejecting, out of hand, anything we don't agree with or like. I hope our future is a better one.

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 21 2021, 07:20 AM

Every article I have found about it states that there is a great deal of backlash in Denmark concerning the show. So it's surely not just Americans who might think it's inappropriate, which of course it is.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 21 2021, 07:39 AM

Without having checked it seems a bit 50/50. However you can buy John Dillerman cakes and they're usually sold out, so it can't be completely bad for everything I suppose. Read through a couple of articles about how it was recieved and it seems its not all that bad. Sure, controversial and not a home run, but not so bad they decided to stop producing it. I think they did more episodes than the original 13.



Also from Danish newspapers (you will have to run them through I translator):

https://www.zetland.dk/historie/s81EM1EG-aO0E1wr0-ef4ca

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdning/filmogtv/seere-tordner-over-dr-boerneprogram-hvor-er-det-klamt/8418540

https://underholdning.tv2.dk/2021-01-07-udenlandske-medier-skriver-om-john-dillermand-og-det-er-ikke-foerste-gang-at-dansk-boerne


As a response to those who are critical DR said this
https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/kultur/sjovt-eller-over-graensen-boerne-tv-om-verdens-laengste-tissemand-deler-vandene

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 21 2021, 08:27 AM

Having baked goods like that is a prime example. I can't see that happening here. but I'm glad it can happen somewhere

It seems like a positive show that has been well thought out by experts. However, everyone is entitled to their own view. Im glad that we have the forum so we can share views and get different perspectives

Posted by: klasaine Jul 21 2021, 08:30 AM

Ha, ha! This is great.
As an American who has traveled and worked abroad a lot, I can say that we are the most provincial and prudish nation I've ever been too. I haven't visited Saudi Arabia so yeah, we're probably in second place. My 12 year old boy has spent about a month every summer on beaches in Italy and France (I know, life is tough). Naked boobs everywhere. Tons of kids of all ages. Nobody stares, nobody comments - even privately. It's no big deal. It's analogous to their alcohol consumption; it's always available and cheap. And yet both Italy and France have some of the lowest levels of alcoholism and alcohol abuse on the planet, not too mention pretty low mortality rates too.

It's a goofy, striped and ridiculously long cartoon penis. Any normal 6 year old knows it's not 'real'.

PS, I also let my kid play 1st person shooter video games and big surprise ... he doesn't really want to actually kill anybody or any thing.

Cartoon dick, cartoon gun - they're the same.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 21 2021, 08:31 AM

I've added some links to my last post about the reception here in Denmark. You will have to run them through a translator of course.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 21 2021, 08:54 AM

Well said It never occurred to me that this short trailer might be this controversial. Then again, I probably should have expected it to some degree. It's good to have different views on things and Im glad we can share them.

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 21 2021, 07:44 PM

After translating and reading the articles and response from DR. I see that there is indeed a great deal of backlash from Danish parents AND other experts for various reasons. That says alot considering how liberated Denmark is supposed to be. Again, there are far better ways to teach acceptance without being perverted and desensitizing children.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 21 2021, 08:11 PM

There are plenty positive comments about it too. Depends what you mean with "great deal", I suppose. There are plenty positives too - in comment sections and other places, also in the articles. Sure, some backlash, but that's what a controversial and progressive show (even cartoon) gets you.

But what is the perversion exactly though? Is that seeing it through the eyes of a 4-8 year old (who I don't think sees anything as perverted) or through the eyes of an adult who knows and experiences things in a different way. Can it be used by adults to do bad things? Maybe, but so can many things though, be that candy or cartoons from the 90's. I don't really see it as perversion, as there's nothing sexualising in it in the show.

Now, I'm not saying the program can't have bad effects in different areas, as I've mentioned, but that children see different bodies (and in this case a clothed body part that is not sexualised in the program) I see no problem with in regards to accepting themselves and their differences. If it's the best way? I don't know. I think it's beneficial to see that not everyone is the same but that we're all equal (more so related to the Ultra Smider Tøjet (Ultra Strips Down) show though), that we're not teaching picture perfectness through Instagram and Facebook and so on. Again nothing sexualising in it, but rather just creating some good talks, questions etc.

Obviously it's a sensitive topic no matter what, but kids see different types of naked bodies in the showers at the public indoor swimming pool and likely in many other places. Whether TV is the best place for it? Who knows, but it reaches a broader audience for better or worse.

So yes, there are issues, but for me nudity is not a problem. And I don't even like nudity unless I'm in the shower, but that's my personal problem!

Here's a link to a cartoon from Denmark from probably the 90's, also airing on DR. 9 minute mark is the "interesting" part in relation to this discussion: https://youtu.be/LowYG0OArj4?t=512

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 21 2021, 11:35 PM

You said yourself you thought it was 50/50. That's a great deal of people, enough to get a show canceled. If not, I am sure that many parents will not allow their children to see it.

A children's show where a man does tricks with enormous genitalia is perverted the way I see it and can easily be misunderstood by 4 to 8 yr Olds. That's my view and it looks like I am far from alone, even in Denmark.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 22 2021, 01:28 AM

as someone that works with kids and needs to yearly take a refresher course about abuse and it's signs, these are classic grooming signs to sexualize children. Get them used to it, a man walks out of the shower and lets his towels 'accidentally' slip or walks out naked and has the excuse ' he did not know' anyone was home. So when 'Children's shows' start the grooming process and society says nothing .. Hold on to your seats

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 22 2021, 04:17 AM

I don't think ayone here is in favor of anything that would harm children in any way. I am certainly against harming innocents in any way. This is just a kids show in another country. It's not shown here. It seemed well done and thoughtful and Id read that it was approved by a host of child psychologists. I'm glad we can all express our thoughts in the forum but I think we are on the same page in terms of not wanting any harm to come to children.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 22 2021, 05:11 PM

full article from the Americanbar https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_interest/child_law/resources/child_law_practiceonline/child_law_practice/vol-34/november-2015/understanding-sexual-grooming-in-child-abuse-cases/
The purpose of grooming is:

to manipulate the perceptions of other adults around the child.
to manipulate the child into becoming a co-operating participant which reduces the likelihood of a disclosure and increases the likelihood that the child will repeatedly return to the offender.
to reduce the likelihood of the child being believed if they do disclose.
to reduce the likelihood of the abuse being detected.8
Grooming behaviors
Key to understanding the concept of sexual grooming is recognizing common behaviors that predators use while grooming victims for sexual abuse. Common sexual grooming behaviors are often subtle and may not appear inappropriate. These behaviors include:

“An adult seems overly interested in a child.
An adult frequently initiates or creates opportunities to be alone with a child (or multiple children).
An adult becomes fixated on a child.
An adult gives special privileges to a child (e.g., rides to and from practices, etc.).
An adult befriends a family and shows more interest in building a relationship with the child than with the adults
An adult displays favoritism towards one child within a family.
An adult finds opportunities to buy a child gifts.
An adult caters to the interests of the child, so a child or the parent may initiate contact with the offender.
An adult who displays age and gender preferences.”9
Other behaviors predators may use during the grooming process are “[a]ctivities that can be sexually arousing to adults who have a sexual interest in children.”10 These behaviors include:
“bathing a child.
walking in on a child changing.
deliberately walking in on a child toileting.
asking a child to watch the adult toileting.
tickling and “accidentally” touching genitalia.
activities that involve removing clothes (massage, swimming).
wrestling in underwear.
playing games that include touching genitalia (playing doctor).
telling a child sexually explicit jokes.
teasing a child about breast and genital development.
discussing sexually explicit information under the guise of
education.
showing the child sexually explicit images.
taking pictures of children in underwear, bathing suits, dance wear, etc.”11

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 22 2021, 06:14 PM

I think most of us know what grooming entails and is, but I'm not sure which ones of those are present in this show (feel free to enlighten me, then I'll gladly accept it, but please watch a full episode and understand the dialogue first), and more so proclaiming half the population of Denmark (if we go by the notion that 50% likes the show or is okay with it), Denmark's National public TV station and GMC'ers as condoning grooming seems a stretch to me. I think experts also point to the difference between the sexualised and non-sexualised.

There are no sexual explicit images or even hints in either of these two shows I've mentioned the most from Denmark (Ultra Smider Tøjet and John Dillermand). There are body parts being shown and talked about in Ultra Smider Tøjet, but in a VERY non-sexualised way. No kids are touched, without clothes in any way or form, nothing like that at all. Adults talking about their own body image and showing young people how different (but still equal) we all are. Yes, controversial TV, sure, but in a very non-sexualised way and not different to showers at a public pool etc. if you ask me, except that of course would be everyone without clothes, which this is not.

Posted by: klasaine Jul 22 2021, 07:09 PM

The USA is a massive consumer of pornography. Possibly the biggest per capita in the world ... https://www.indiatimes.com/news/world/india-3rd-most-porn-watching-country-in-the-world-up-from-4th-last-year-249212.html ... and yet we love to moralize to everybody else.
Cartoon guns - good.
Cartoon dicks - bad.
WTF.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 22 2021, 07:11 PM

tickling and “accidentally” touching genitalia.

playing games that include touching genitalia (playing doctor)or a long penis that you can slap santa off the roof with


discussing sexually explicit information under the guise of
education.

the first step is not to have sexualization but normalcy of ones ' equipment '.as someone that does not have kids I can not ask you to understand, but as this father of nine has watched countless couples with your point of view, Have kids and change their minds very quickly ( my brother being One ). just because there is not an exact match to the American bar link does not negate anything . grooming , getting a child use to touching and talking and normalizing it it the start of every abuse situation. Individual circumstances does not negate the rule and if you ever have kids it will do you well to stay as far from the cliff rather than seeing how close to the edge you can get in the name of education. Having a child not get abused because we set some ground rules is well worth the effort. if 50 percent don't have a problem with it , I would like to know their status/ single/no kids or what about those in the 'study" before I would have any validity in that claim , not to mention how the question was asked, but down votes on a video speak louder than anything else

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jul 22 2021, 07:40 PM

I'll have to watch the episodes again, but I don't remember anything about tickling or accidental touching. And no discussion of sexual information either from what I remember - in either show. But I could be wrong, and I will have to watch it again.

I've been trying to find information of child abuse around the world, but it's been difficult to find a list, percentages etc., but a few links state that the US has one of the highest rates of child abuse (what that completely entails in these stats are probably a few different things. https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-statistics/
Looking at statista.com (I don't know how well that is as a source), which unfortunately seems to limit my access as I'm not a premium member, it does seem as if the US has more reported cases in percentages, but it's kinda difficult to navigate, so I'm not concluding anything on that.

And of course you might argue that kids are not reporting anything as they've gotten "used to it". I don't know, maybe, but it's difficult to conclude.

Now I'm not saying that makes Denmark great, I'm not saying we're necesarily doing the correct thing here, and I hate to have gone into whataboutisms,

The 50/50 I mentioned earlier was just quickly judging from negative/positive comments. It wasn't a precise number by any mean. I hear parents say that they've gotten a good talk and chat with their children after having watched these shows and most of the negative are "my kids will never be allowed to watch this!". But I'm writing statistics based on nothing but reading through a few hundred comments.

I wish my parents (and society) had been more open about accepting body differences etc., not experiencing body shaming etc when I was younger. Without making this a completely personal matter I'm not keen on nudity myself and I never was. I don't like being nude unless I'm in the shower. I don't even walk around my house nude though no one can see me. But that's my personal problem and in some way linked to that (un)acceptance of differences and my own body.

I must admit I dislike being told I condone grooming, that Denmark does this etc, that experts are wrong, child psychologists need their education money back and so on. That seems a bit personal and not good for any discussion. That said, I don't think this topic is worth delving into much more if it's about to become too personal in that way. Not here at GMC of all places. So I will probably leave it be here. Feel free to reply, but I likely won't reply back

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 22 2021, 08:00 PM

Im all for a healthy discussion on differing views but this seems to have gone off the rails. It's safe to say that nobody here condones anything harmful to others in any way. In fact I dare say we are all opposed. This was just a share of a unique animated program and has really turned in to something else entirely. Perhaps we should just let it drop? I'm certainly going to.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 22 2021, 08:03 PM

I never came close to saying you condone it , but I do believe you are unaware of the early signs, if you can make the distinction from touching instead of tickling and forget it is not the exact verbiage but rather the normalization to the child is the point I am trying to make . As far as Denmark is worse or better is irrelevant , if we can see the signs and prevent them in our own places/towns .

Here is england doing the same thing

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 23 2021, 07:07 AM

Second place? Hardly.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Index_of_Moral_Freedom

Posted by: klasaine Jul 23 2021, 01:05 PM

"Legal" has little correlation to actual "attitude" and like I said, as a pretty well traveled guy, the USA is quite provincial comparatively regardless of what is allowed legally.

Posted by: AK Rich Jul 23 2021, 02:11 PM

Actually, it has plenty of correlation. And putting the USA as the the 2nd most prudish nation in the world is quite ridiculous compared to pretty much every nation in the Middle East and many in Asia.
And there really isn't a hell of a lot of difference to what you might see on the beaches of this country compared to Italy and France either. There are nude beaches here too.