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GMC Forum _ MTP (Pedja) _ Caelumamittendum's Mtp Thread
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 4 2009, 06:26 PM
Hi Ben!
This is place where I will give you assignments and upload videos. You will do the same starting tonight. Bookmark it, subscribe to it as it will be easier to follow when I post new things in!
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 5 2009, 01:40 PM
Ben I will post your assignment when I receive your guitar CV!
From what we talked before on MSN, you are looking to improve your arranging and songwriting. Assignments will be directed towards that no worries. Shoot me a message when you get internet. I will also send you PM right now to keep you updated with MTP!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 8 2009, 10:29 AM
Hey Pedja,
I just got internet again here, but I haven't had time to write the Guitar CV. I will do so tonight after I've had my classes at university today. Expect it up around 6 or 7.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 8 2009, 09:40 PM
I just got internet again here, but I haven't had time to write the Guitar CV. I will do so tonight after I've had my classes at university today. Expect it up around 6 or 7.
Got it all Ben, excellent stuff !
We will start tomorrow with your first assignment if you don't mind
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 8 2009, 10:10 PM
Sure thing, Pedja. Looking forward to it. I hope you can in some way incorporate bringing back my motivation and inspiration. At times I've felt that I've actually needed a more "personal" teacher than just GMC all in all. Someone that will want me to do certain exercises and get "dissapointed" if I don't do so. I can't really find better words now, but you might know what I mean 
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 8 2009, 10:11 PM
Believe it or not, I know exactly what you mean
I will push you and make you feel bad for not practicing so you will practice and eventually realize that awesome things happen when you spend some time with your guitar, but more on that tomorrow...
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 8 2009, 10:20 PM
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with, Pedja. From what I've seen at the other users' MTP threads it's looking very good!
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 8 2009, 10:27 PM
Thanks a lot Ben, really appreciate it. You know I will put my best effort so it should be great and lots of fun!
We have been waiting for this for a while, remember? Now we can finally use this new MTP system and do wonders. I will start tomorrow because I am tired from trip and can't post assignment right now. I could but I could leave things out and thats just not right! So its best to wait until tomorrow, will shot you PM and one on MSN as soon as I post it!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 8 2009, 10:35 PM
We have been waiting for this for a while, remember? Now we can finally use this new MTP system and do wonders. I will start tomorrow because I am tired from trip and can't post assignment right now. I could but I could leave things out and thats just not right! So its best to wait until tomorrow, will shot you PM and one on MSN as soon as I post it!
Yeah, no problem at all. I don't have time to look at anything untill tomorrow at least. I have a few or more chapters in books to read etc. in the next days due to university.
Interesting books none the less, so it's not really that bad Can you at least share some details of what you have in mind with the MTP here?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 8 2009, 10:45 PM
Interesting books none the less, so it's not really that bad Can you at least share some details of what you have in mind with the MTP here?
Sure thing Ben...
Composing, arranging, repertoire, improvising, theory and harmony, technique and repertoire for starters!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 8 2009, 10:48 PM
That sounds very nice!
Regarding theory and harmony (and arranging) is it possible to have a look at chord progressions and how one would go about making something less predictable than just your regular 7th, 9th, 11th etc. chords? I would also like to know a bit more about key changes and how to approach these in the best manner without making it sound totally out of order...
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 8 2009, 10:49 PM
Regarding theory and harmony (and arranging) is it possible to have a look at chord progressions and how one would go about making something less predictable than just your regular 7th, 9th, 11th etc. chords? I would also like to know a bit more about key changes and how to approach these in the best manner without making it sound totally out of order...
This is exactly what we are going to do as you need all these tips and tricks in order to improve your songwriting and arranging
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 9 2009, 12:40 PM
Lets get started Ben!
I decided to put emphasis on theory and harmony in your 1st assignment. The reason why I am doing this is because this will help you a lot with composing and arranging, especially reharmonizing which you mentioned as something you aim to learn.
Your 1st assignment is Theory reading. You will have a test on these 2 posts of mine.
Theory reading :
- I would like you to read my posts from links provided below.
- Once you read it all, memorize 3 and 4 part harmony in C major scale.
- Learn to apply scale degrees rather then numbers ( I in C major is C, IV in C is F etc).
- Write out in this thread all notes for 3 and 4 part harmony in C major scale.
Here are the links :
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=30193
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=30271
Let me know if you have any questions Ben. Very soon after you finish this one, we will start with some standard reharmonization techniques!
Pedja
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 9 2009, 05:51 PM
I'm just gonna do these theory exercises whenever I have the time during the evening, Pedja. So here's a little of it...
C major harmonization
3 part harmonization
I = C = C E G = 1 3 5
ii = Dm = D F A = 1 b3 5
iii = Em = E G B = 1 b3 5
IV = F = F A C = 1 3 5
V = G = G B D = 1 3 5
vi = Am = A C E = 1 b3 5
vii = Bminb5 (Bdim) = B D F = 1 b3 b5
I usually write Bminb5, but it looks kinda weird here. I cannot lower the b in b5, I think.
EDIT: looks like I can.
4 part harmonization
I7 = Cmaj7 = C E G B = 1 3 5 7
ii7 = Dm7 = D F A C = 1 b3 5 b7
iii7 = Em7 = E G B D = 1 b3 5 b7
IV7 = Fmaj7 = F A C E = 1 3 5 7
V7 = G7 = G B D F = 1 3 5 7
vi7 = Amin7 = A C E G = 1 b3 5 b7
vii7 = Bmin7b5 = B D F A = 1 b3 b5 bb7
If you're asking for half-diminished on the last chord, it would only be b7 (thus Bb). The mentioned bb7 would also just be a 6th (and in this case A).
I don't usually write whether the chords are major, minor or diminished when writing the degrees. (etc. Imaj7 vs. I7), but I think I've seen both used, and I don't really know what would be considered correct.
I hope that is some of what you wanted, otherwise feel free to correct me. There might be some errors (either "real" errors or typing errors), as it was just from the top of my head.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 9 2009, 06:33 PM
All great Ben except on the last chord !
Bmin7b5 is the correct way of writing it. We also call it half diminished because it has minor instead of diminshed 7th Everything else (triad) is original to diminished 7th chord.
If you take Bmin7 chord, you will see its B D F# A. Since C major scale has no F# but rather F, we practically lowered the perfect 5th down a half step, which makes it Diminished 5th. This is why we add to Bmin7 b5 in the and (as the 5th of the chord is flatted).
There is no double flatted 7th or any reason to write b7. If we just write Min7, it goes without saying that its a minor triad with minor 7th. If we wanted to use Harmonic and Melodic minor I chord which is minor triad with major 7th, we would write it as Min/Maj7 with root in front of it (C min/maj7 ).
Hope that makes sense?
Have you read about diatonic reharmonization?
What can you tell me about that? How would you go about it to reharmonize something diatonically ?
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 9 2009, 06:53 PM
Bmin7b5 is the correct way of writing it. We also call it half diminished because it has minor instead of diminshed 7th
Everything else (triad) is original to diminished 7th chord. If you take Bmin7 chord, you will see its B D F# A. Since C major scale has no F# but rather F, we practically lowered the perfect 5th down a half step, which makes it Diminished 5th. This is why we add to Bmin7 b5 in the and (as the 5th of the chord is flatted).
There is no double flatted 7th or any reason to write b7. If we just write Min7, it goes without saying that its a minor triad with minor 7th. If we wanted to use Harmonic and Melodic minor I chord which is minor triad with major 7th, we would write it as Min/Maj7 with root in front of it (C min/maj7 ).
Hope that makes sense?
Have you read about diatonic reharmonization?
What can you tell me about that? How would you go about it to reharmonize something diatonically ?
Yeah, I know about the half diminished, but suddenly got a bit confused whether you were asking for half diminished or diminished.
Makes perfect sense. I was just trying to get as much information down as possible
I'm not too sure about reharmonization, let alone diatonic reharmonization, and I'm not sure I've read about it before. Was it in one of the two links you gave me? I must admit that I skipped a bit through them.
Now I'm just taking a wild geuss though:
If we have a I IV V I progression C, would diatonic reharmonization involve changing the tonic, subdominant and dominant to something besides C, F and G? When thinking diatonically, I can't really help but thinking in moving up in diatonic steps, but I'm not sure if we're just talking 1 step or more steps. Say I would become iii, IV would become vi and V would become vii.
I'll google it now before lecturing myself something wrong...
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 9 2009, 06:57 PM
These are all good guesses !
You missed II as being sub dominant functioning chord ans VI being tonic function chord
So here is the lay out
Tonic functioning chords : I, III and VI
Sub dominant functioning chords : II and IV
Dominant functioning chords : V and VII
That sums up diatonic reharmonization in major scale. It would be nice to see you do one piece with regular harmony and reharmonize it diatonically. Consider that your assignment !
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 9 2009, 07:07 PM
I'm still a bit confused about it though. Are these considered good choices for reharmonization because of their shared notes with the I chord?
Example: C
I = C = C E G
iii = Em = E G B
vi = Am = A C E
E.g. there's both C E in I and vi?
Another question - when we're talking re-harmonization in a piece, are we RE-harmonizing the entire piece into something "different" or are we merely placing the iii or vi chords as harmony upon the I-chord? (I geuss this would in the I + iii case would give us a I7 chord...)
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 9 2009, 07:26 PM
Good questions Ben!
Yes these are good choices because they contain some sort of combination of 1 3 or 3 5 of the I chord.
When we talk about reharmonizing, we can do both things: reharmonize whole piece, or just change some original harmony and change it with diatonic reharmonization (for time being).
Let me think of a good piece for you, in the meanwhile you should do the same. Think very famous pop songs, like Titanic song (My heart will go on) or Mariah Carey , Britney Spears stuff. This is all strong melodies with diatonic harmonies that could be reharmonized, and this is what we need to do right now!
Posted by: lcsdds Sep 9 2009, 07:42 PM
Yes these are good choices because they contain some sort of combination of 1 3 or 3 5 of the I chord.
When we talk about reharmonizing, we can do both things: reharmonize whole piece, or just change some original harmony and change it with diatonic reharmonization (for time being).
Let me think of a good piece for you, in the meanwhile you should do the same. Think very famous pop songs, like Titanic song (My heart will go on) or Mariah Carey , Britney Spears stuff. This is all strong melodies with diatonic harmonies that could be reharmonized, and this is what we need to do right now!
Sorry to hijack your thread guys but I had a question for Pedja......When you say reharmonize do you mean use chord substitution??
So if I had I-IV-V progression I could reharmonize it with say a iii-ii-VII instead???
Thanks and sorry again for hijacking your thread....
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 9 2009, 08:09 PM
So if I had I-IV-V progression I could reharmonize it with say a iii-ii-VII instead???
Thanks and sorry again for hijacking your thread....
Thanks for asking that. I actually think that is what I meant before. I see two possibilities:
1. Harmonize I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii played by another instrument.
2. Substitute I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii.
I'm still not 100% sure which one I am supposed to do.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 9 2009, 08:37 PM
I actually have another question...
In the following example I first wrote the Guitar part in the first four bars and I then added the synth to the same part. Moving on to the last 8 bars in the piece, I added the harmonized parts from the two next guitars. These two guitars move up in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths and 6ths in each bar. First four 16th notes in 3rds, then five 16th notes in 4ths, then three in 5ths and finally four in 6ths.
What would that kind of approach be called - first writing a part and then adding that kind of harmony. Is that re-harmonization?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 9 2009, 10:41 PM
1. Harmonize I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii played by another instrument.
2. Substitute I, IV and V with iii, vi and vii.
I'm still not 100% sure which one I am supposed to do.
Ben remember you can harmonize I with III and VI note just III. Depending on what melody allows you! IV can be substituted with II so keep that in mind as well.
In the following example I first wrote the Guitar part in the first four bars and I then added the synth to the same part. Moving on to the last 8 bars in the piece, I added the harmonized parts from the two next guitars. These two guitars move up in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths and 6ths in each bar. First four 16th notes in 3rds, then five 16th notes in 4ths, then three in 5ths and finally four in 6ths.
What would that kind of approach be called - first writing a part and then adding that kind of harmony. Is that re-harmonization?
That is just guitar harmony Ben. Harmonizing melody using various interval harmonizations. Here we are talking about changing whole harmony underneath while keeping the actual melody of the piece.
I like the way you are thinking, this is good, we are moving forward a lot, love it!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 9 2009, 10:48 PM
Yeah, of course. It was just examples. I didn't write out every possibility.
Anyway...
Do you want me to find a song (e.g. "My Heart Will go on" from Titanic) and reharmonize using for example iii chord INSTEAD of I chord (substitute I with iii or vi) or do you want me to actually harmonize the I chord using the iii chord? (or vi for that matter...)
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 07:19 AM
Anyway...
Do you want me to find a song (e.g. "My Heart Will go on" from Titanic) and reharmonize using for example iii chord INSTEAD of I chord (substitute I with iii or vi) or do you want me to actually harmonize the I chord using the iii chord? (or vi for that matter...)
I want you to find song and reharmonize as much as you can in it using diatonic reharmonization for tonic, subdominant and dominant chords.
You can pick "My Heart Will go on" or as I said Mariah Carey or Britney Spears songs
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 11:53 AM
Alright, I'll have a look at it later tonight after Uni.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 01:26 PM
Ok Ben, pick a song today and we can perhaps start working on it tonight.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 07:24 PM
I don't really know any pop songs, to be honest... I have found the chords to My Heart Will go on. Should I write the re-harmonization chords here?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 08:02 PM
Okay give it a go Ben, lets see what you got
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 10:09 PM
Intro:
C#m B A B C#m B A B
In here we already see some sort of re-harmonization from the I IV V progression, which would have been E B A. Instead we have C#m, which is the vi chord. The key is E major, and the chord progression vi, V, IV, V.
If we were to re-harmonize the C#m, which is the vi chord, we could reharmonize it with E chord, which is I or IV chord, which is A. E shares the 3rd, 5th of C#m, while A shares 1st and 3rd.
The B chord of the intro is the V and can be re-harmonized with the vii, which is Ebminb5. These two chords share the 7th degree of the E major scale, which resolves into the 1st degree and I chord, which is E. The V chord could also be reharmonized with iii-chord G#m, which shares the 1st and 3rd.
As for the IV-chord A, it could be re-harmonized using the vi-chord C#m. This chord has the 3rd and 5th of the A chord. It could also be re-harmonized using ii-chord F#m, which has the 1st and 3rd of the A chord.
-----------------------------
I hope that is some of what you wanted out of me. I don't really have much more time now, but just want to add, that it's far more interesting when adding 7ths to the chords, I think. E.g.
Dmin7 and Fmaj7.
-----------------------------
I hope I've understood a little of this correctly, otherwise please say so
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 10:16 PM
Ben just make sure that if Root is in the melody not to reharmonize with III chord but rather with VI chord!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 10:43 PM
Can you explain that a bit further in a few sentences and maybe with a short example?
I mean "if root is in the melody". When you say root here, do you mean as in the key of E? Or do you mean the root of the chord (e.g. C#m)? In the latter case I would say that the root of the chord...is always in the chord?
I'm not quite sure I get what you are saying here.
If you mean root is in the melody (e.g. I IV V) as in E major in that, why can I not harmonize with iii-chord G#m? They share some notes in B and G#?
As I see it, if you're not substituting the chords, G#m adds to E major so that it becomes maj7, where as C#m makes it E6. If we were to substitute the chords this is of course somewhat irrelevant?
Oh, and another kinda cool thing:
There's a guy in my class at university, who is also a Tottenham fan, who has been teaching guitar for many years. He's also a graduate from LA Guitar Institute. He's 36 by the way, which is a bit older than me, but he is very cool. He has offered me and another guitarist from my class free guitar lessons. Hahaha. I think that's quite awesome.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 10:50 PM
Sure thing Ben!
If you are in key of E major, and you have E in the melody and E major originally playing in the background, you should reharmonize it with C# minor (VI) instead of G# minor (III). G# minor has G# B (3 5 of E) and D# (7). Since III chord has major 7th of the key, and melody is a root, we get clashing type of sound (b6 or b13th interval in comparison from G# to E). This is why we avoid it and reharmonize with VI chord which has more stable sound if root of the I chord is in the melody. I hope that makes sense now. Let me know if you have any more questions.
Very cool to hear about GI Spurs guy Let me know how lessons go with him
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 10:52 PM
If you are in key of E major, and you have E in the melody and E major originally playing in the background, you should reharmonize it with C# minor (VI) instead of G# minor (III). G# minor has G# B (3 5 of E) and D# (7). Since III chord has major 7th of the key, and melody is a root, we get clashing type of sound (b6 or b13th interval in comparison from G# to E). This is why we avoid it and reharmonize with VI chord which has more stable sound if root of the I chord is in the melody. I hope that makes sense now. Let me know if you have any more questions.
Very cool to hear about GI Spurs guy
Let me know how lessons go with him Oh, then I understand it. I thought you meant "melody" as in general "song" and not as "melody line with underlying chords". No problem understanding it then
Yeah, I'm not sure how he'll be approaching it, but we're going to bring out our guitars some day all three and jam for a bit. I haven't heard him playing, but a graduate from a guitar school can't be all that bad
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 10:57 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure how he'll be approaching it, but we're going to bring out our guitars some day all three and jam for a bit. I haven't heard him playing, but a graduate from a guitar school can't be all that bad
Awesome!
You guys will have a blast, watch a Spurs game before and after jamming
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 11:00 PM
Am I done with the assignment or do you want me to correct or do something else besides that?
By the way, even though you say there's a clash between notes in the above example, it could theoretically be used anyway (freedom of being creative). And I geuss the clash would sound less clash-y if the E note was played an octave or more above the G#m?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 11:03 PM
By the way, even though you say there's a clash between notes in the above example, it could theoretically be used anyway (freedom of being creative). And I geuss the clash would sound less clash-y if the E note was played an octave or more above the G#m?
You are not done yet
I want you to lay out the arrangement for the song and put original harmony once through then do your reharmonization. Melody should always stay the same no matter what!
It is ok to use G# minor with E as the melody note but that works when E is passing note (eight note value or so).
Between VI and III, VI chord is more tonic stable chord because it contains actual root of the chord in it!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 11:04 PM
I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you want me to record the chord progression and then record the re-harmonization as well?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 11:05 PM
I was thinking more of doing it in Guitar pro because you are very good at that. If you feel like recording it, go ahead, it can only benefit you !
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 11:07 PM
I don't even know the melody line of My heart will go on. Hahahaha. But I'll have a look at it anyway
EDIT:
I think this is some of what is going on. I'm just gonna try and do some re-harmonization quickly and then I'm off
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 11:25 PM
I am going to bed now, work on it and submit it fully by Sunday !
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 10 2009, 11:47 PM
Sleep well, Pedja.
I've tried something. I'm not sure it is exactly how you wanted it, but I definately already got something out of it.
The change from the first part to the second part (C#m B A B vs. E G#m F#m G#m) is quite evident. But I geuss this is also a matter of changing modes.
I've kept the melody line playing the same, but changed the chords to the reharmonized ones. In the last part both sets of chords are played underneath the melody line.
I chose to reharmonize C#m with E, because of the start note of E and resting note of G#. Those two prominent notes in the melody line are in both chords. Had I chosen A, there would have been a clash between the G# in the melody line and the A chord.
In the next bar I chose to reharmonize B with G#m because of the resting note B which is in both chords. This note is not in the vii chord and therefore I felt G#m was the better choice.
In the next bar I have reharmonized A with C#m because of the note C#. I could have also chosen F#m. The note C# is in both F#m and C#m, but to me C#m felt more natural as C# is the root of the chord.
In the same bar we move on to a resting note B. I have chosen G#m here, as the note B is not in Ebminb5 (though there are two b's in the name ).
It's really the same in the 3-4 next bars, except the melody changes, but the landing notes are the same. I don't see any reason to explain that.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 09:20 AM
Ben this is excellent, just what I wanted you to do! I am very glad to hear you already learned some things from this assignment. I will pick a next tune for you and lets see what you can do with that one
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 11 2009, 11:45 AM
Hahaha. Cool. I'll wait and see.
I'll be very busy next week by the way. I'm going to be at work Monday from 14:15 to 23:15, university Tuesday from 13:00 to 17:00, university Wednesday from 13:00 17:00, Thursday university 15:00 to 17:00 and work from 17:00 to 23:15 and Friday I'll be away between 14:00 to 16:00 and 16:00 to 21:15.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 11:58 AM
Ok Ben, I will give you assignment for this weekend then so we can make up lost time in next week
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 11 2009, 12:28 PM
Yeah, do that. I'll be out for the Spurs game though, as well as having to look at the collab. But go for it, Pedja. I'll find the time!
By the way... what would the term for "re-mode-ifying" be? 
Like... If you have a certain melody and chord progression and you within a song change that from let's just say aeolian to phrygian?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 12:51 PM
But go for it, Pedja. I'll find the time! By the way... what would the term for "re-mode-ifying" be?
Like... If you have a certain melody and chord progression and you within a song change that from let's just say aeolian to phrygian?Enjoy the game, Arsenal is playing Man City, that will be a great game as well
First time I heard of that term Ben but explanation you give sounds right
Adjusting melody and its notes by mode you are in.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 11 2009, 06:43 PM
It was actually just something I came to think of. I don't know if it makes sense. I have never used it before though. I'm not sure how one would go about pulling it off smoothly.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 07:17 PM
A lot of jazz improvisers use this trick. Listen to Coltrane, he loves to start on one pitch and do voice leading from it, just altering the rest of the notes to fit the mode that supports chord.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 11 2009, 07:21 PM
Cool. I'll definately listen to him.
I love those small tricks. I like melodies that are simple and minimalistic, which only progress in slight changes such as key or modes
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 07:42 PM
Yeah he is awesome! He didn't play minimalistic though Well if you think about melodic ideas, they were simple but all grouped together at fast tempos so it sounded like really long flowing lines on sax. Very cool stuff!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 11 2009, 08:14 PM
Another thing that has always trouble me is how to incorporate lots of chords as is seen in Giant Steps as an example. We have both E7, F#7, Fmaj7 and lots of other chords which are very "close" to eachother and note related in terms of being in the same key. I've always had trouble writing like that without having it sound weird.
What I meant with minimalistic though was that one can create simple melody lines and keep them interesting through changing mode, key etc. and still keeping the "same" melody.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 08:23 PM
Well its all about common notes between chords or voice leading. In Jazz music you will find great examples of voice leading, sequences, repetition, quotations etc. So once you understand how they do it in Harmony, all you have to do is sit down and practice these things melodically. This is what Coltrane did, he read tons of books on reharmonizing and chord progressions, even classical harmonies, and took 3 tonic system, practiced it like mad, started improvising over simple II V I superimposing with 3 tonic system, and then eventually that became his thing! Today everybody knows who John Coltrane is and jazz musicians all around world are thankful to revolution he brought to jazz music
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 11 2009, 08:32 PM
Yeah, of course. So basically you are saying that, of course, it will sound less "awkward" (but still jazz-y) to have two chords from seperate keys in the same chord progression if they have a leading note between them? Quite obvious actually.
Funny thing actually... when I first started out writing my own songs, I would always make sure that chord following the previous chord in the chord progression shared at least 1 note with the previous chord. Always staying in a certain key though. So... from Em I had the choice of going to G, Bm etc. maybe even Dsus2 or other such chords. Hehehe.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 08:35 PM
Yes Ben, you definitely got the talent for it. I look forward to hear your work after 3 months of MTP
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 11 2009, 08:41 PM
I have never actually analyzed my own songs or looked at how I approached it when writing them. But I've definately already caught on to some ideas (even though I may have used them before, but haven't been aware of it) for when composing. I'll pay more attention to re-harmonization in the future for sure.
Another thing I've recently found myself inspired by is just looking at some old Beethoven and Mozart books I have. They have a lot of transcribed concertos etc., and some of the runs and harmonies are quite interesting. I've sent you Prologue before, and the arpeggios that start at bar 74 are kinda inspired by some of those books.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 12 2009, 12:54 PM
When is my next assignment going to be up?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 12 2009, 03:06 PM
Some time later tonight Ben!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 12 2009, 03:36 PM
Cool
I'm just done mixing my collab together. I'm not sure whether to record a take myself as well.
I decided not to record anything for my own collab for now, but maybe make an SI lesson out of it some day.
What would you suggest that I focus on in my comments?
Melodic approach/build up
Technique
Timing
What more?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 12 2009, 09:30 PM
I'm just done mixing my collab together. I'm not sure whether to record a take myself as well.
I decided not to record anything for my own collab for now, but maybe make an SI lesson out of it some day.
What would you suggest that I focus on in my comments?
Melodic approach/build up
Technique
Timing
What more?
Hey Ben,
You could use sound, phrasing/rhythm placement, melodic approach, development, intro and ending for example.
I would like you to take same song (from Titanic) and try to use secondary dominant chords wherever possible! This would mean dominant chords approaching target chord. So if you have F# minor as target chord, try to use C#7. Keep in mind that melody should sound diatonic to secondary dominant chord.
Experiment, do it in guitar pro and post your work in this thread!
P.S. Manchester by 2 goal margin ha?
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 12 2009, 11:12 PM
I'm having a difficult time actually doing it on this specific song.
In "round 1" (with original chords) in the melody line just before we arrive back at I-chord C#m, we have a B note lasting for a half note. That kind of blocks for a G#7.
I did however use it in my collaboration, I think, where the progression was something along the line of Em, D11, Cmaj7, Bmadd*coughcough*, Em, D11, Cmaj7, B7 and then repeat it all.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 13 2009, 11:56 AM
In "round 1" (with original chords) in the melody line just before we arrive back at I-chord C#m, we have a B note lasting for a half note. That kind of blocks for a G#7.
I did however use it in my collaboration, I think, where the progression was something along the line of Em, D11, Cmaj7, Bmadd*coughcough*, Em, D11, Cmaj7, B7 and then repeat it all.
Have you considered making it G#7#9 ? Melodic minor 7th degree chord, key of A melodic minor?
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 13 2009, 12:06 PM
I have not considered that, but doesn't it still have the C in it from it's regular G# major? Or should I "skip" the 3rd then, which then means no major feel to it? And that third would also be the lead note, I geuss.
See, my problem is that we have a B in the melody line, which blocks what I would say is the leading note C into C#m.
As I see it, there will always be a clash between the B in the melody line and the C in whatever G# dominant chord we use?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 13 2009, 12:31 PM
See, my problem is that we have a B in the melody line, which blocks what I would say is the leading note C into C#m.
As I see it, there will always be a clash between the B in the melody line and the C in whatever G# dominant chord we use?
Good questions Ben!
The beauty about secondary dominant chords is they actually allow you to have those types of tensions. All you have to consider is :
1) Relate dominant chord to the target key of approach chord
2) Add tensions to dominant chord to fit the arrangement
First case is, C# minor comes from E major or A major or B major. So now if you have G#7 chord in any of these 3 keys, what would the chord scale for G#7 (notes of that scale starting from G#) look like? Remember, you have to alter notes to keep the chord tones 1 3 5 b7 in each of 3 keys.
Second case is rather easier... G#7 has B# or C (enharmonically) but in melody we have a B note. This note by definition is minor 3rd or b3, but up and octave this becomes #9 tension. On major and minor chords this tension is not that great, but for dominant 7th chords it could work great!
So try voicing from bottom to top going like G# F# C D#(or E as #5 or b13) and B on top.
Strings are 6th 4th 3rd 2nd and 1st. Very jazzy voicing. Try it out!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 13 2009, 12:42 PM
My main problem is that unless I move the chord up to higher positions on the neck, there will be a class between the B and C, as the latter will be right above the B, as they are both in the same octave, if I play it 4th position.
I'm not really sure how to go about doing it, unless it's just to be a swift visit at the C.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 13 2009, 12:44 PM
I'm not really sure how to go about doing it, unless it's just to be a swift visit at the C.
Upload guitar pro with voicings and lets hear how it sounds. I am not sure I can help you like this now
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 13 2009, 12:47 PM
If I arpeggiated the chord it sounded kinda weird, so I did it this way:
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 13 2009, 01:19 PM
The problem is melody is in the middle! If melody is in the higher range then actual chord voicing, then it would be doable!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 13 2009, 01:19 PM
Yeah, exactly. That was really what I was trying to say.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 13 2009, 01:47 PM
You could do that same voicing but in some other midi editor, or to drop it down an octave with some transposition tool
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 14 2009, 12:43 AM
What's next Pedja, where do I go from here? I fully understand and appreciate the alteration to dominant 7 and its functions. I could move the melody up and just actually write it out, but I must admit that I don't really see the "lesson" in that, rather than the fact that it adds some experience of doing so.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 14 2009, 01:04 AM
The purpose of this assignment is to teach you new reharmonizing technique. You already learned over one famous tune how to do diatonic reharmonization. If I wanted to be very strict, I could ask you to do it over at least 4 more different tunes to make sure you got it all right. Since I have only 3 months for each MTP student for starters, I am trying to cover as much new topics with you as possible. This particular I am trying to get you to do is secondary dominant chords. They are extremely useful in music and are great to set up new modes, modulation or simply resolve unexpectedly. Basically, I am trying to build your reharmonization composing arranging songwriting technique from diatonic reharmonization with some secondary dominants. Later on we will do modal interchange, II V I's, constant structure, cadences, modal harmony etc.
Hope all this makes sense. I do have plan for you, don't want you to think I am just randomly giving you things out. It may appear like we are just talking things out, but I prefer to work in that sort of atmosphere with you as I know it relaxes you and you do assignments well.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 14 2009, 01:13 AM
Hope all this makes sense. I do have plan for you, don't want you to think I am just randomly giving you things out. It may appear like we are just talking things out, but I prefer to work in that sort of atmosphere with you as I know it relaxes you and you do assignments well.
Yeah, I wasn't intending to say it like it probably sounded. Hahaha.
I can definately see a red line through just these two things you just shown me. I can also definately see the meaning of dominant chords. Could you explain to my why there has been put a "secondary" into "secondary dominant chords"?
For me it's just a matter of realizing that the "technique" and theory is there, then it's a matter of using it in my own songwriting. As said, I've already used the dominant function before, I think. In the Em, D11, Cmaj7, Bm, Em, D11, Cmaj7, B7 progression.
Since we've only got three months, I don't want to dwell too long on a topic that I feel I understand. I definately get the use of dominant chords as you were showing me with this example, the problem was only that the melody line was in the same octave. Once I moved the melody line up an octave, there was no problem at all. I don't think I saved the file though.
As said, we have 3 months, and all of these things I know now I can gradually use more and more in my own writing, so I don't want to dwell too long on topics that I understand anyway. I can create my own examples and work with these things in my own writing outside of the MTP as well and after the MTP.
I hope that makes sense, as I wrote it pretty quickly
I'm eager to learn lots of new things, and especially these writing techniques and terms (secondary dominant chords, reharmonization). Some I might have used before but haven't been 100% aware of. Being aware of it helps a whole lot and adds a new dimension to ones writing, instead of just doing it because it felt like a good idea. Now I can do it because I know how to use it
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 14 2009, 01:32 AM
This is great to hear Ben. I like your response a lot
Just to be clear, I mentioned a 3 month period because that was initial idea - everybody should get a chance to study with instructor of their choice. Now as you see, I have 17 of you guys, so they let me have you all This idea was there when we were supposed to have maximum of 5 students! My point is, I think even after 3 months period we will continue to work together, if you apply and want to stay with me
With all that being said, I will go a little bit more into Secondary Dominant theory as you haven't used it yet (not from the example you mentioned anyway).
Ok, in major scale, where do we have dominant chord, on which scale degree?
Dominant chord is always on 5th scale degree in any major scale!
What about harmonic and melodic minor? Again, on 5th scale degree!
What about natural minor? On b7th (or minor 7th) scale degree!
What do these dominant chords on 5th scale resolve to!? Mostly (more then 99%) to I chord!
So we get G7 to C major or G7 to C minor or G7 to A minor etc.
Now here is a cool thing... All these dominant chords I just mentioned already exist in the scales above naturally. We didn't have to raise or lower any notes of the scale, they are there simply because they belong there.
With secondary dominant chords, we create dominant chords for all the other scales degree's but the ones where we have unstable chord (diminished or min7b5 chord!).
We create secondary dominant chord by taking certain scale degree, going up a perfect 5th from it and making it a dominant chord. That dominant chord now resolves to that scale degree and is called secondary dominant chord. Why secondary ? Because primary dominant chord is the one that already exist within the actual scale (V scale degree!).
Here is example of C major chords and their secondary dominant chords.
I II III IV V VI VII VIII
C maj D min E min F maj (G7) A min B dim C maj
Secondary dominants for scale degrees above
V7 V7/II V7/III V7/IV V7/V V7/VI
*G7 A7 B7 C7 D7 E7
*primary dominant!
I hope this theory and harmony information I just gave you clears a lot of things.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 14 2009, 01:36 AM
Just to be clear, I mentioned a 3 month period because that was initial idea - everybody should get a chance to study with instructor of their choice. Now as you see, I have 17 of you guys, so they let me have you all
This idea was there when we were supposed to have maximum of 5 students! My point is, I think even after 3 months period we will continue to work together, if you apply and want to stay with me With all that being said, I will go a little bit more into Secondary Dominant theory as you haven't used it yet (not from the example you mentioned anyway).
Ok, in major scale, where do we have dominant chord, on which scale degree?
Dominant chord is always on 5th scale degree in any major scale!
What about harmonic and melodic minor? Again, on 5th scale degree!
What about natural minor? On b7th (or minor 7th) scale degree!
What do these dominant chords on 5th scale resolve to!? Mostly (more then 99%) to I chord!
So we get G7 to C major or G7 to C minor or G7 to A minor etc.
Now here is a cool thing... All these dominant chords I just mentioned already exist in the scales above naturally. We didn't have to raise or lower any notes of the scale, they are there simply because they belong there.
With secondary dominant chords, we create dominant chords for all the other scales degree's but the ones where we have unstable chord (diminished or min7b5 chord!).
We create secondary dominant chord by taking certain scale degree, going up a perfect 5th from it and making it a dominant chord. That dominant chord now resolves to that scale degree and is called secondary dominant chord. Why secondary ? Because primary dominant chord is the one that already exist within the actual scale (V scale degree!).
Here is example of C major chords and their secondary dominant chords.
I II III IV V VI VII VIII
C maj D min E min F maj (G7) A min B dim C maj
Secondary dominants for scale degrees above
V7 V7/II V7/III V7/IV V7/V V7/VI
*G7 A7 B7 C7 D7 E7
V7/II
primary
dominant!
I hope this theory and harmony information I just gave you clears a lot of things.
Let me know if you have any questions!
It definately makes sense, Pedja. Thanks for elaborating on it. I was just a bit confused about that "secondary" thing.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 14 2009, 01:40 AM
Awesome Ben!
One thing that goes without saying is, for every secondary dominant chord, we had to change some original notes from the scale!
So V7 of II or V7/II in C major is A7 because it resolves to D minor or D minor 7 chord. Now A7 has A C# E G ! So from the original scale we had to raise the root of the scale !
Keep that in mind always, this is why secondary dominant harmony opens a lot of possibilities for reharmonization
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 14 2009, 01:42 AM
One thing that goes without saying is, for every secondary dominant chord, we had to change some original notes from the scale!
So V7 of II or V7/II in C major is A7 because it resolves to D minor or D minor 7 chord. Now A7 has A C# E G ! So from the original scale we had to raise the root of the scale !
Keep that in mind always, this is why secondary dominant harmony opens a lot of possibilities for reharmonization
Yeah, I totally see the purpose of that
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 14 2009, 11:39 PM
How's it going, Pedja? Are you able to keep track of all us eager for learning guitarists at GMC?
I do not have work the next two days, but I have a lot of catching up to do at University (I haven't really been studying at all ), so I'll have to find time for that too, but I also will have time for some MTPing.
That said, I liked the lessons I've had so far. They were very valuable, yet easy to access and approach and gain from. They didn't take days to practice etc., but immediately gave me new tools for my composing. Actually, lesson might be a wrong word - assignment would be better
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 15 2009, 10:04 AM
I do not have work the next two days, but I have a lot of catching up to do at University (I haven't really been studying at all
), so I'll have to find time for that too, but I also will have time for some MTPing.That said, I liked the lessons I've had so far. They were very valuable, yet easy to access and approach and gain from. They didn't take days to practice etc., but immediately gave me new tools for my composing. Actually, lesson might be a wrong word - assignment would be better
It is going great so far Ben. One week since MTP started and I am happy to see progress with most students.
Were you able to do something with secondary dominant chords in Titanic song?
Would you like another assignment, new song and new applications?
Let me know!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 15 2009, 01:36 PM
Were you able to do something with secondary dominant chords in Titanic song?
Would you like another assignment, new song and new applications?
Let me know!
Yeah, after I raised the melody to the octave above, it wasn't that big a problem. It had a very different feel to it than the original tune in a very jazzy way. I could've written more and made key changes within though. I didn't do that, but I didn't save the file for some reason.
I wouldn't mind some new applications, assignments etc
By the way, I just tried a few things in the GP file. They may not have been all too succesful, and I may have overdone it using it 3 times withing 16 bars, but still!
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 15 2009, 01:39 PM
Excellent Ben!
This is exactly type of things I was talking about when we talked about MTP. Perfect. Transitions could be smother but I love the fact that you tried out things I taught you and were very creative with them. You are onto something great, I love when I see that in people. Well done. Don't fly to high now with this praise, you will get more assignments to push you further!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 15 2009, 01:46 PM
This is exactly type of things I was talking about when we talked about MTP. Perfect. Transitions could be smother but I love the fact that you tried out things I taught you and were very creative with them. You are onto something great, I love when I see that in people. Well done. Don't fly to high now with this praise, you will get more assignments to push you further!
I know the transitions weren't too smooth, which was what my "it's not too succesful" was aimed at. But afterall, I only just changed it in 2 minutes, so I geuss it could've used a bit more work. But I can definately see how it can be applied to change key etc.
One thing that has always bothered me a bit is how to make a key change without making it sound too key-change-ish! I think that's the best word I have now.
One lesson that springs to mind is Muris' lydian beginner, where he changes key from E lydian to Bb lydian/B major to C major. It doesn't sound too off here and I do wonder why. I know the last note in the last E lydian bar is a A#, with an E11+ beneath, I think. Next chord is Bb major.
Could you explain a little about why this is working and if it is possible to make an equally smooth transition to any other key?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 15 2009, 01:53 PM
Sure thing Ben!
When changing keys you have to consider couple of important things. You should try to find :
- Common note that belongs to both keys
- Chord that works in both keys
- Prepared modulation (with some sort of cadence, II V I or V to I)
- or simply use Direct/unprepared modulation.
All these methods have their way of working, you just have to do them right. In your case, you had a long note, and a resting point, which made the transition (somewhat) smoother. This is another trick that can work. I will give you some assignments for this, but before that we will cover Modal interchange harmony which will help you to modulate very easy.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 15 2009, 01:59 PM
When changing keys you have to consider couple of important things. You should try to find :
- Common note that belongs to both keys
- Chord that works in both keys
- Prepared modulation (with some sort of cadence, II V I or V to I)
- or simply use Direct/unprepared modulation.
All these methods have their way of working, you just have to do them right. In your case, you had a long note, and a resting point, which made the transition (somewhat) smoother. This is another trick that can work. I will give you some assignments for this, but before that we will cover Modal interchange harmony which will help you to modulate very easy.
Cool. Thanks, Pedja
Looking forward to it.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 15 2009, 02:06 PM
Looking forward to it.
Great Ben, I am looking forward to it as well. Today I will post backing for Frederik and couple of assignments for other guys, will try to do yours as well. I will be out of town on Thursday (Partizan Belgrade game versus French side Touluse in Belgrade) so I will be back home sometime on Friday. Will do my best to assign you everything today and tomorrow so you can do the work while I am away on Thursday and Friday!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 15 2009, 03:14 PM
Yeah, sure thing. I won't have much time those two days either though, as I have uni + work those days, so I'll be off pretty much all day both days.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 16 2009, 05:04 PM
Funny thing, Pedja.
The guy from my class that I've talked about, who studied at LA Guitar Institute and offered me and another guitarist free lessons, he plays a lot of jazz and we talked today, and he was very impressed that I knew what re-harmonization and secondary dominant chords were!
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 16 2009, 06:08 PM
The guy from my class that I've talked about, who studied at LA Guitar Institute and offered me and another guitarist free lessons, he plays a lot of jazz and we talked today, and he was very impressed that I knew what re-harmonization and secondary dominant chords were!
That is awesome, I am thrilled to hear that Ben!
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 17 2009, 11:52 AM
Ben,
Hope your university studying is going well!
I have decided to give you some extra work because you are doing great so far with the work load I am providing you.
Here are your assignments :
- Take one whole tune with AABA song form (verse verse chorus verse) and reharmonize it using techniques you learned so far (secondary dominants, cadences and diatonic substitution). Keep in mind that melody has to be strong in relation with harmony. So I don't want perfect 4th over Major chord (major 3rd clashes with perfect 4th), the same goes for dominant chord.
- Read my theory post on Cycle 4 and Cycle 5. I will give you short test on it in couple of days.
- Do your assignment in Guitar pro and upload it in this thread.
I hope this is enough work load for you Ben. I will be back tomorrow and will respond to all your questions then!
Pedja
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 17 2009, 01:35 PM
Thanks for the assignment, Pedja. I will be a bit busy for the next few days, but I'll try to get it done as soon as possible. The biggest problem will be finding a song with a AABA structure! Hahaha. I don't know a whole lot of "classical" structured songs per se.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 19 2009, 10:04 AM
You welcome Ben!
I can assign a song to you but I would prefer if you picked song that you like as you will have to spend time experimenting with these reharmonization tools. Check out Beatles
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 19 2009, 10:11 AM
I can assign a song to you but I would prefer if you picked song that you like as you will have to spend time experimenting with these reharmonization tools. Check out Beatles
I haven't had time yet, and I'm going to be visiting my girlfriend's family for the next couple of days. I'll bring my laptop, but I'll also have to get the comments for my collab done.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 19 2009, 10:25 AM
No rush Ben, do what you have to do first. I know you will do the assignment soon
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 24 2009, 01:25 PM
Hey Pedja,
Is there a possibility that we can push this assignment a couple of weeks and go at something a little easier to comprehend now? I simply won't get this done right now, as there's too much going on besides this MTP. I will have a week off in a couple weeks though, but I don't want this assignment to stand in the way of others.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 24 2009, 02:30 PM
Is there a possibility that we can push this assignment a couple of weeks and go at something a little easier to comprehend now? I simply won't get this done right now, as there's too much going on besides this MTP. I will have a week off in a couple weeks though, but I don't want this assignment to stand in the way of others.
Hey Ben,
Sounds good to me. Give me a day to reconstruct your assignment and give you a new one.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 24 2009, 03:43 PM
Thanks, Pedja.
I don't want to neglect this assignment completely though, but if you have something that is a bit easier to go at and doesn't take too much time, it would be wonderful. I'm going to be at work all night today and most of tomorrow.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 24 2009, 03:46 PM
I don't want to neglect this assignment completely though, but if you have something that is a bit easier to go at and doesn't take too much time, it would be wonderful. I'm going to be at work all night today and most of tomorrow.
Sure thing Ben.
I might assign you chord progression with melody or give you a lead sheet and ask you to analyze melody vs harmony relationship. This will be very useful for reharmonization purposes I am just thinking of easier tune to start this off with
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 27 2009, 01:36 AM
Ok Ben,
Since you don't have too much time for previous assignment, lets do some more studying
What can you tell me about Modal Interchange? What is it, how do we apply it in harmony?
Could you give me an example of a chord progression where modal interchange is applied?
Let me know if you need any help with this, I will give you all the answers you need!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 27 2009, 01:38 AM
Thanks for the assignment, Pedja! I like these kind of things. Having me explain them, find out about these things and such makes me more aware of the use of them and makes it easier to incorporate in my own writings. I much prefer these kinda tasks than "slavery" tasks of acting it out in 3 songs or similar, though I can see the benefit of that.
It's late here now, so I'm gonna write a bit about it tomorrow.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 27 2009, 01:41 AM
It's late here now, so I'm gonna write a bit about it tomorrow.
You welcome Ben. I am very glad to hear you enjoy these types of assignments. I enjoy them as well. Like you said, they are very beneficial and make you become self aware of these things and how to use them.
I am hoping to get answers from you in next couple of days. If you get things wrong don't worry because I will give you a lesson on it with examples.
Thanks Ben !
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 27 2009, 01:52 AM
I am hoping to get answers from you in next couple of days. If you get things wrong don't worry because I will give you a lesson on it with examples.
Thanks Ben !
100 posts in my MTP thread! (Just wanted that before going to bed! Hahaha.)
I have some ideas and have read a bit about it before, but I'm not 100 % sure I have it down correctly, but I'll write it out tomorrow
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 27 2009, 08:20 PM
Alright.
From what I understand it is about borrowing chords from other modes with the same root. E.g. playing in C Ionian and then borrowing a chord from C dorian.
It could be you having a I, IV, V progression, maybe with a 7th, being Cmaj7, Fmaj7, G7. You could then extend that chord progression or change chords by adding from another C-mode. Maybe being:
| Cmaj7, Ebmaj7, Dmin7, Fmaj7, B7, Emin7, Dmin7, G7 |
Ebmaj7 being borrowed from C dorian or C phrygian, and B7 being from C lydian #2 (which is...the 6th mode of E harmonic minor). You still have C ionian chords surrounding your tonic and your standard cadence of V to I in C ionian. You are just borrowing chords from modes with the same root as your starting point.
That's what I would think anyway. I'm not sure of how to notate it with numbers though:
Imaj7, (bIIImaj7), iimin7, IVmaj7, (VII7), iiimin7, iimin7, V7 ?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 27 2009, 08:30 PM
Very good job Ben!
You described everything pretty much. I will just mention that when we analyze modal interchange chord, we would just write above it M.I and then put in bracket what function it has bIII maj7 and such.
The example you provided is good and it uses modal interchange as passing chords. In other words we don't use modal interchange chord to modulate for longer period.
I would like you to give me chord progression that uses modal interchange to set up new key and harmony for longer period.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 27 2009, 08:52 PM
I know the chord progression probably wasn't the best overall, but it was just from the top of my head.
When using it to change keys, would that mean that the last chord in the progression would be a modally interchanged one that leads into the new key?
Could be like this maybe:
Cmaj7, G7, Fmaj7, C7 -> Fmin7, Bbmin7, Cmin7, G#7 -> C#min7...
.............From C mixolydian...........from F phrygian.......
???
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 27 2009, 08:57 PM
When using it to change keys, would that mean that the last chord in the progression would be a modally interchanged one that leads into the new key?
Could be like this maybe:
Cmaj7, G7, Fmaj7, C7 -> Fmin7, Bbmin7, Cmin7, G#7 -> C#min7...
.............From C mixolydian...........from F phrygian.......
???
There are some problems with this chord progression. First of all, you have to distinguish the sound of the key/mode long enough before moving onto new one.
Cmaj7 G7 Fmaj7 = C Ionian
But then you went to C7 leading into Fmin7 .... That sounds like some sort of F minor type mode. When you later went into Bbmin7 and Cmin7 that all made it sound like F aeolian (F I Bb IV C V all minors). Then you modulated from that using G#7 or Ab7 enharmonically into C#min7...
What would you change in there?
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 27 2009, 09:05 PM
Making the chord progression longer would surely make it more distinguished. Sorry for rushing it a little. Hahaha. I'll come up with a better example soon
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 27 2009, 09:13 PM
No problem Ben, let me know when you get something together!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 27 2009, 09:30 PM
I keep getting to the G7 and having "nowhere" to go but to Cmaj7, then still being in C major or going to C minor, hahaha.
My mind isn't working now it seems.
Let's try it again
Say:
Cmaj7, Fmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Cmaj7, Am7, Dmin7, B7 -> E...?
I, IV, ii, iii, I, vi, ii, (VII7) -> I (of E Ionian)...
Of course the progression before the change could be longer and having repetitions before going to the B7.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 27 2009, 09:34 PM
Now you are doing great job Ben!
Remember that music happens in phrases. Usually phrases happen in 2 or 4 bars. Sections are actually 8 or 16 bars. So keep all this in mind when working with chord progressions.
Regarding G7... Remember that you can have expected resolution (up a perfect 4th to C) or down a half step (down to F#) or unexpected resolution to A minor for example.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 27 2009, 09:46 PM
I wasn't too sure whether I was allowed to use those kind of cadences... Hahaha. I've always considered them somewhat not as "perfect" as V to I or V to i, which is probably also a correct assumption, but to the ear they release the tension as well, which is what it is about.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 01:31 PM
They definitely make sense like you said. Sometimes you have to follow your ear and then seek for theory and harmony explanation for it.
I am expecting some chord progression from you, preferably with melody done in Guitar pro. Let me know when you have something for me Ben!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 28 2009, 03:24 PM
How's this? Should I have used more 7ths?
I forgot to type in the B7 chord name, I can see now.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 03:26 PM
It is ok Ben but it could be done better. Couple of pointers :
1) You changed harmonic rhythm which could be great but it didn't turn out so great (for a reason)
2) Your modulation was prepared and it worked but your harmony was too many things happen at the same time in E major.
Changing harmonic rhythm is great tool when composing new sections or changing things up. This would have worked great if you used static melody vs moving harmony. It didn't work well because your melody in E major was nowhere near the one you established in C major. If you kept original motives, did some repetition in E major it would have worked even better. So idea is to carefully think of both melody and harmony when changing key. I am happy you did this example as you can already learn from it.
Take everything I said above and try to correct it
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 28 2009, 03:39 PM
Better now?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 04:05 PM
Yes much better, perfect!
Now cool thing is B7 can lead into C maj7 because its a modal interchange chord of E harmonic minor 6th mode like you mentioned before.
Good trick here is C maj7 = E min triad with C in the bass. B7 resolves naturally to some sort of E so here instead of continuing with E major harmony you are back into E minor harmony.
Add this in the end and keep up the good work!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 28 2009, 04:13 PM
Like this?
I know the melody isn't the best out there. I didn't have my guitar with me when I wrote it, so I just pretty much took it singing it out in my head and trying to get it down as good as possible, adding and putting a bit here and there.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 04:32 PM
I know the melody isn't the best out there. I didn't have my guitar with me when I wrote it, so I just pretty much took it singing it out in my head and trying to get it down as good as possible, adding and putting a bit here and there.
Yes !
Love it
You are working non stop, I love when I see that. Great progress so far. As you said melody is not perfect It could be better as it is too repetitive and does the same thing over and over. Couple of suggestions for you !
- When you did G altered 2nd time through (8th bar) you could have modulated there to something different as well!
- Why don't you put a bass line, it will definitely enrich this piece?
- Why don't you use diatonic substitution more? When you have C maj7 or A min7 why not use E min7 sometimes? Why not use B min7b5 instead of G7 ? Why not create Bmin7b5 E7 and modulate to A min A maj or F maj modal interchange?
- I don't like chord symbols you use to label chords, we must talk about this!!!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 28 2009, 04:38 PM
Love it
You are working non stop, I love when I see that. Great progress so far. As you said melody is not perfect It could be better as it is too repetitive and does the same thing over and over. Couple of suggestions for you !
- When you did G altered 2nd time through (8th bar) you could have modulated there to something different as well!
Yeah, it was just a copy/paste thingie. I could have altered it quite a bit. I would have done so had it been a "regular" composition that I would one day record and not a lesson. Sorry for that
I just added a bass in the first two bars, but it's not something I will do right now though. It has always been quite time consuming for me to come up with a good bass line in all pieces of music. I don't just want the bass to follow the root of the chords.
Great ideas! I was focusing too much on the key change to be honest. I will work on that when I put some time into the bass thingie as well.
Do you mean the E7M as an example? Actually, I would, here in GMC and wherever else I write it, write: Emaj7. I don't know why Guitar Pro has the layout in chords that it has. It has always bothered me a bit. I geuss I could just manually write it the regular way, but it's easier to just click the mouse and know both ways.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 04:44 PM
Great Ben. I will put up a text for you soon with all the chord symbols. I don't have an answer why Guitar pro uses that sort of labeling. I can tell you about classes I had at Berklee with numerous professors where we covered all possible chord symbols. Idea is to make reading music as simple as possible (especially for musicians who perform unprepared things like in orchestras or sit in sessions, gigs etc). This is why we avoid E with zero and line through it but rather E min7b5 for example. It is also important to do C maj instead of CM and C min instead of Cm. This is just confusing stuff for musicians, but we will talk about it soon I promise.
Don't worry about bass line right now, we haven't covered anything for that yet. For time being use just roots. If you are "bored" with roots, use 3rds and 5ths, but I don't expect you to do a walking bass line yet. Idea is to just enrich this arrangement as much as possible.
See what you can do with modal interchange ideas I have given you. I am waiting for more uploads when you get a chance !
P.S. When we finish with modal interchange, we will get back to our main assignment
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 28 2009, 04:56 PM
Don't worry about bass line right now, we haven't covered anything for that yet. For time being use just roots. If you are "bored" with roots, use 3rds and 5ths, but I don't expect you to do a walking bass line yet. Idea is to just enrich this arrangement as much as possible.
See what you can do with modal interchange ideas I have given you. I am waiting for more uploads when you get a chance !
P.S. When we finish with modal interchange, we will get back to our main assignment
As said, chord symbols and such are really no problem. I know the way to write them so that they are the easiest to read, I would think. We learned that in school 5 years back or so. As said, I would never, if I were to play things with other musicians and give them sheets, write EM instead of E major. I went to a music kinda school for a year, though we didn't learn that much, this is one of the topics I remember. Many of the music teachers there and here in Denmark in general use E for E major chord and Em for E minor etc. I think that's fairly easy to understand though. If I were to specifically explain something to someone without too much knowledge of this, I would write it E major and E minor though. We also went through a bit of different ways in class: EM7, Emaj7, Emajor7, E7M. Em7, Emin7, E7m. etc etc. It all depends on the situation for me.
I don't use the chord naming feature that much in Guitar Pro in general, but I can see that you can manually name the chords Cmaj7, Dmin7 etc.
Regarding bass:
I've always like the bass lines in Alice in Chains acoustic songs. Like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3px0m1Y9Tuc&fmt=22 -
I've always considered a bass that plays a melody as well... very melodic. Sure, they land on root notes, 3rds, 5ths etc, but have a nice melody in between at places.
I will try and write some less jazzy stuff and more of my own style with modal interchange etc. if that is alright?
What is the main assignment again?
ADD: and regarding bass lines. I've always like having the bass play something in higher octaves than just your low brutal metal bass.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 05:10 PM
Ok Ben, all sounds good man. I am expecting some new things from you when you get the time. Make sure you improve arrangement, include more modal interchange variety and perhaps change the melody a bit.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 28 2009, 05:57 PM
And it's alright if it's not in a jazzy environment?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 06:00 PM
Sure thing!
I encourage you to take all this material and use it for your original music. We are not doing this for you to play jazz , that was not my intention anyway, I hope you don't think that
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 28 2009, 06:28 PM
I encourage you to take all this material and use it for your original music. We are not doing this for you to play jazz , that was not my intention anyway, I hope you don't think that
Not at all, man, I don't think that! I just find it's easier to implement in a foreign style for me (such as jazz) rather than prog metal.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 06:34 PM
Cool Ben, go with Progressive Metal
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 29 2009, 04:46 PM
Will try and use it in one of my current compositions.
I was wondering if we can put a little side-assignments in here too, Pedja? I know the priority is composing and all these things, but I wouldn't mind having a few exercises (tapping, alternate picking, whatever...) to do and record too and a deadline to keep me at it.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 30 2009, 05:27 PM
I was wondering if we can put a little side-assignments in here too, Pedja? I know the priority is composing and all these things, but I wouldn't mind having a few exercises (tapping, alternate picking, whatever...) to do and record too and a deadline to keep me at it.
Great to hear this Ben. Most people try to get out of work but you seem to request more and more always
I am up for it, hope you are too.
What technique would you like to focus? I can give you 11 exercises for Alternate picking and you will get assignment to record them in 3 tempos. Will that work or do you need something more?
Let me know!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 30 2009, 05:35 PM
That will be alright. I need to focus on my alternate picking too to get that up to par. I would also like some arpeggio stuff to practice at a point. It's not so much what to practice as to rather do it and have some deadline and focus on getting to where both I and you expect me to be after a certain amount of time and practicing. I don't know if that makes sense.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 30 2009, 05:41 PM
It makes perfect sense! It will get you to organize and aim for something particular, I totally support that
Ok here are the 11 alternate picking exercises. Learn them all and go for 3 tempos that are at least 20bpm gap between them. Idea is to have slow (warm up) medium (slight effort) and fast (maximum effort) tempos. For you it may be 60 100 160bpm. We won't know until you try them all. You will also notice that exercises are different in rhythm as well as approach. Some are played on 1 string, some use 2 , some 3 or more strings but alternate picking always happens no matter what. When you do all of these and record them, we can do arpeggios as well
Deadline for your assignment is one week from today (October 7th). I want you to push yourself as much as you can with technical exercises and same goes for Alternate picking ones.
Let me know if you have any questions Ben !
Exercise_1_Alternate.pdf ( 103.34K )
: 56
Exercise_2_Alternate.pdf ( 104.72K )
: 53
Exercise_3_Alternate.pdf ( 106.53K )
: 51
Exercise_4_Alternate.pdf ( 66.74K )
: 43
Exercise_5_Alternate.pdf ( 70.31K )
: 47
Exercise_6_Alternate.pdf ( 90.17K )
: 56
Exercise_7_Alternate.pdf ( 84.09K )
: 49
Exercise_8_Alternate.pdf ( 110.14K )
: 48
Exercise_9.pdf ( 67.05K )
: 55
Exercise_10_Alternate.pdf ( 80.52K )
: 59
Exercise_11_Alternate.pdf ( 74.46K )
: 59Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 30 2009, 06:00 PM
Excellent, Pedja. I'm feeling in a more technical mood tonight, so I might look at a few and record some.
My alternate picking starts to get wobbly at 140 bpm with 16th notes though, but I'll be pushing that fore sure. I'll try them out at 80, 100 and 120 bpm first and see how that goes though. It's been a while since I practiced such things.
Do you want a video of me doing these?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 30 2009, 06:01 PM
Video would be perfect Ben!
See if you can do something tonight already. I will check the thread after champions league matches (watching game with my best friend and brother as usually)
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 30 2009, 06:14 PM
Nice! Which games tonight? Always enjoy a good bit of CL football.
You know what I dislike very much? When you've recorded a take at something and afterwards realize that the input was set to microphone and not line in!
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 30 2009, 06:50 PM
Tonight there is a derby game between Bayern Munich and Juventus Torin Man Utd will play Wolfsburg, Real against Marseille, Chelsea against APOEL (team that kicked out Partizan Belgrade...) So plenty of good games
Did you just do that? I somehow though you were recording using digital effects as output source
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 30 2009, 07:12 PM
I use my pandora PX4D for recording, but my webcam automatically sets the "microphone" to "microphone" instead of "line in".
Here's the first exercises. I only played through it a few times before recording though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJnPdt8hsI&fmt=22
I was also just recording exercise 2 when my cat decided to jump in and sit in front of the camera.... Stupid cat!
I actually think there's a bit of a timing problem with the 120 bpm takes.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 30 2009, 07:35 PM
Good work for very little to none preparation. I think you can do better of course. Keep in mind that 1st exercise uses only one string, it serves as a warm up of a sort
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 30 2009, 08:00 PM
The sound is not so good, as I'm just using the drums from the Pandora and everything goes through the same from that, so it might not be perfect, but for it is, I think it'll do.
I'll try and record all exercises in a similar way though and maybe put them all in one video.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 30 2009, 10:42 PM
I just made a youtube file with several takes of every exercise. from Exercise 4 and onwards was pretty much first time I played those. Some shapes are more familiar than others though. I played all exercises at 80 bpm. Some are better than others, of course. I struggled quite a bit with exercise 10, as you will see. My fingers and mind kept wanting to play something else, so I moved on to 11. Will work more on it to the next time though.
I will have the youtube link up soon.
Oh... and the faces when playing something in the wrong weren't are just my "ARGH"-faces, but not in a very serious way though. So if I look really sad at not having played it the right way, it's not that bad really.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Sep 30 2009, 11:44 PM
Sound quality degraded a bit through having to split the file. Don't know what happened. There are some not so good things in between, but hopefully we'll see a lot of progress in the next few days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC4PBUmbz0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZxBR4ISvU
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 1 2009, 08:30 AM
I am sure we will see a lot of progress in next few days. I like how you practiced things in those videos. It is very clear when you make a mistake and then you try to correct it. I think overall you will have to spend more time on specific things within exercises (string skipping one for example).
One more thing Ben... I don't expect you to post videos every day,but if you can record your practice session (like what you did last night) then I would like to keep an eye on your progress that way too!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 2 2009, 10:40 PM
Funny problem... My little finger starts to cramp up when doing the exercises at 130 bpm. Hahaha. Can't bend it then. What's the best solution to this?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 3 2009, 08:56 AM
Gradual increase of tempos. It may take you couple of days or a week to do 130bpm comfortably. I suggest you start at 100bpm and increase every day by 6bpm.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 3 2009, 12:46 PM
Hahaha. Alright. It's no problem playing it if I start out at that tempo though. Might have to do some warming up first too. Stretching and such.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 3 2009, 12:47 PM
Exactly Ben, warming up you shall and must do
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 3 2009, 12:56 PM
It's overrated, I tell you! Overrated! Hahahahaha.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 3 2009, 12:59 PM
Haha no, Spurs are overrated
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 3 2009, 01:05 PM
OOOOOHH! You didn' just say that!
I'm going to the pub in a few hours to watch todays match against Bolton at Reebok. Always a tough game, but I hope we win this year.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 3 2009, 01:14 PM
I'm going to the pub in a few hours to watch todays match against Bolton at Reebok. Always a tough game, but I hope we win this year.
Hehe, you know I like Spurs, but I just like Arsenal more
Enjoy the game, it is going to be a great one. I will also watch it with my best friend via satellite
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 8 2009, 12:39 PM
Hey Pedja, I've been away a bit from GMC, and the internet in general. What is the status of MTP? How does the re-organization affect this thread? I didn't fully understand, I think. Something about a new thread each month?
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 8 2009, 01:03 PM
Hey Ben,
I will open today new threads for all of you guys. You will get one assignment per week that you will need to complete. In November there will be total of 4 weekly assignments along with REC submission. Hope that makes sense.
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 8 2009, 01:03 PM
I will open today new threads for all of you guys. You will get one assignment per week that you will need to complete. In November there will be total of 4 weekly assignments along with REC submission. Hope that makes sense.
It does make sense. Very structured. Looking forward to it, Pedja
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 8 2009, 01:06 PM
It will be, I just hope everybody will make it with assignments!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 8 2009, 01:07 PM
Woah! I had totally forgot the deadline for the alt exercises... speaking of deadlines 
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 8 2009, 01:09 PM
That is exactly what I meant
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 8 2009, 01:11 PM
Hahahaha. Anyways. It's no problem recording a video and pulling them off at 75 bpm, 100, bpm and 120-125 bpm, and maybe even 130-135 bpm, but I'm going to the university very soon (in 40 minutes), need some breakfast first etc.
Girlfriend is away tonight though, so I might just do a video then.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 8 2009, 01:13 PM
I will probably close this thread by tonight and post your assignment in new thread. If I don't do that, feel free to upload it here tonight
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 8 2009, 01:13 PM
Arh, that is perfectly fine, Pedja. I'd like it in the new thread actually, I think. But I can do the video anyway.
Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 8 2009, 01:15 PM
I will definitely post 1st assignment for all of you guys to be something easier - like alternate picking exercises. You already (most of you anyways) covered that, so this will be perfect to set things in place and move on from there.
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