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Posted by: Jackson64 Jan 23 2010, 12:16 AM

Hey Everyone,

I just joined the site a few days ago and I'm really enjoying the community and all the lessons on here. I've really cleared up many of the things I've had trouble understanding in theory and with technique.

One thing I've really had trouble gaining a grasp on are odd note groupings such as "quintuplets." I understand triplets and use them often, but triplets are easy for me because the second note of the three note grouping is simply off beat. I also use little counting phrases such as saying "1-e-and-a" for 16th notes or "tri-pl-et" during triplet rhythms. Being able to have some kind of guide line like that helps me when first learning a new type of grouping. Quintuplets and "tuplets" in general have caused me confusion because of how they have to be played evenly inside of a smaller note grouping.

My question is does anyone here use a counting method during quintuplets? I've tried the concept of just listening to music that uses quintuplets to just get a feel for them, but I'm not really consistent on my timings and I like to have some method I can fall back on to make sure I'm staying in time such as a way of counting them in my head. I'm trying to learn them because there comes in a time in writing music when using eight note triplets is too slow and sixteenth note triplets are too fast (same goes for 16th and 32nd notes). Plus the more tricks you know the more interesting the music right



Any help would be great and I'd like to know any methods anyone has used to learn these irregular groupings.


Thanks

Posted by: Staffy Jan 23 2010, 12:28 AM

I terms of learning quintuplets (or other tuplets), try to make sequences descending or ascending and play them to metronome. 5 & 7 is not so hard, but when You come to 9 and eleven.....
In the matter of transcribing, I don't really have seen many cases where tuplets have been played in a "thinking" manner - it's rather so that the player had aimed for a certain note, and in order to land on the beat, he just have to play some little faster... but of course there are some exceptions (for instance in tapping sequences).... to transcribe this though, it must be slowed down to a very slow speed...
I think a good practice will also be to practice odd meters, eg. 5/4, 7/4 etc.

//Staffay

Posted by: Tolek Jan 23 2010, 12:53 AM

Staffy is very right, I agree with him, but I´d like to add that you can count the notes that you play. Starty slowly and get progressively faster. Don´t forget to have the note, which is on the first beat, in mind. Example:

  >
-12------------------
-----15p13p12--------
------------------14-
---------------------
---------------------
---------------------

Practise this lick slowly while accentuating the 12 fret on the e string.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 23 2010, 12:59 AM

There are lots of runs that can be cool with quintuplets and easy places to start, which is easy for the fingers. One pretty similar to Tolek's example I've included below.

I would usually just count: "one-two-three-four-five-one-two-three etc..."

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 23 2010, 02:05 AM

I just count them as irregular groupings, in 5 or 7 groups. However I always counted them when walking, since I was kid, so it came natural in some way

Posted by: Jackson64 Jan 25 2010, 12:40 AM

Thanks for all the tips

Posted by: djohnneay Jan 25 2010, 01:21 PM

Is it okay if I give you just 1 more ?
You can try playing the 5-note lick slowly and tapping your foot on the first note.
Then try to get a steady metronome beat with you foot, when you succeed, your ready to play with metronome

Posted by: Artemus Jan 25 2010, 05:35 PM

I wholly appreciate the difficulties in getting ones head around note groupings beyond the standard subdivisions. I think mainly because it's so customary to use symmetrical rhythmic patterns and melodies are easier to create with intuitive crotchetts, quavers and triplets thereof..etc What I'm saying is that on some level I think it's a psychological perspective - that odd meter times and groupings don't come naturally.. or do they?? Polyrhythms and odd meters abound in all sorts of tribal beats and native music across the world. IMHO it the accustomisation to popular western music and conventions that makes "odd" rhythms less intuitive.
This point is could be debated I'm sure; it's just my opinion.
Anyhow, I think it's all well and good counting an even 5 or 7 or n number of beats but I personally found a much greater understanding by playing around with polyrhythmic patterns. For instance, playing a 5:2 pattern will help you understand where exactly the quintuplet beats reside and where accents could emphasise the pattern, much much more than just playing 5:1
Even though guitar playing is usually monophonically emphasised, leads/riffs etc (generally speaking of course), polyrhythms are best understood by playing against a contrary rhythm, i.e. drum beat, foot tap etc.
Interestingly, Steve Vai wrote a little article on the matter. It's on his webpage and it's well written:
http://www.vai.com/LittleBlackDots/tempomental.html
Hope it helps.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jan 26 2010, 04:04 PM

Think about word University

Divide it now as a quintuplet

U-ni-ver-si-ty
1 2 3 4 5

I find this to be very easy and probably best way to count quintuplet

Posted by: Daniel Realpe Feb 5 2010, 05:07 PM

I found this lesson on it



what I do in my head is count:

Ta doo ta doo doo - Ta doo ta doo doo -Ta doo ta doo doo

Posted by: Damir Puh Feb 5 2010, 06:08 PM

Gotta love them drummers.