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> 2/3 Of Millenials Have No Idea What This Image Means, Sadly.
klasaine
post Jun 3 2019, 02:40 PM
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It's why we Jews say "never forget".

Maybe that band Sabaton needs to make a Holocaust album. Don't worry, they won't make a 'profit' off of it as no buys music anymore.
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Mertay
post Jun 3 2019, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jun 3 2019, 01:40 PM) *
Maybe that band Sabaton needs to make a Holocaust album. Don't worry, they won't make a 'profit' off of it as no buys music anymore.


biggrin.gif



My cousin's band covered a song which was written about it (original song also in Turkish), yeah it didn't sell well but the fans did like it.

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jun 3 2019, 05:37 AM) *
If we can forget about what might be the most organised evil act in modern times, I assume everything else, including the Armenian Genocide, US slavery - etc will be totally lost.


off topic; It won't be sincere if it comes from me but do make atleast a websearch on why Turkey refers the event as a tragedy instead of a holocaust and why some countries don't accept it as holocaust. I'll share a quick info which Armenians also agree on; very few actually died cause of a person or a weapon...

This post has been edited by Mertay: Jun 3 2019, 04:01 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Jun 4 2019, 03:50 AM
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I was just reading about Turkey and Denial of the Armenian Genocide. It's evidently a thing in Turkey to just deny that 1.5 million people were killed by the ottomans. Who knew? Everywhere else in the world it's just a historical fact. It's actually against the law in some countries to call it anything but Genocide.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/03...XgZM/story.html
There are wads of sources on this. It's become nearly part of Turkish culture to just deny it almost ever happened.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/world/eu...n-genocide.html

And speaking of profiting...Many of the leaders of the new Turkish republic — but not Ataturk — were primary architects of the genocide, and some grew rich off the confiscation of Armenian properties.
Same way the Nazis funded themselves by confiscating all Jewish money/property/etc. when Jews were declared no longer to be Citizens and bereft of any rights under statehood.
My Dad never mentioned this as I don't think he knew about it. I didn't
know much about it til I googled it. We have blood on our hands as well.We don't call it a "genocide" but we did wipe out nearly 10 million Native Americanswhen we sorta showed up and declared this "our land", then we started making laws about who could legally enter "our land". Geesh. So there is plenty of blame to go around.Nobody here calls this a 'genocide", we just refer to it as our "Manifest Destiny". It sounds much more palatable.
QUOTE (Mertay @ Jun 3 2019, 10:10 AM) *
biggrin.gif



My cousin's band covered a song which was written about it (original song also in Turkish), yeah it didn't sell well but the fans did like it.



off topic; It won't be sincere if it comes from me but do make atleast a websearch on why Turkey refers the event as a tragedy instead of a holocaust and why some countries don't accept it as holocaust. I'll share a quick info which Armenians also agree on; very few actually died cause of a person or a weapon...


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 4 2019, 04:42 AM
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Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 4 2019, 07:55 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jun 3 2019, 03:40 PM) *
It's why we Jews say "never forget".

Maybe that band Sabaton needs to make a Holocaust album. Don't worry, they won't make a 'profit' off of it as no buys music anymore.


Yes that's a very good idea - it wouldn't surprise me since they are constantly touching upon the topic. For example they do have the track "Inmate 4859" which talks about Auschwitz.

I have also done one myself. It took me more than a month to get mentally stable after researching for the video - so I don't see myself to doing it again in the near future:



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Mertay
post Jun 4 2019, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 4 2019, 02:50 AM) *
Nobody here calls this a 'genocide", we just refer to it as our "Manifest Destiny". It sounds much more palatable.


Term Genoside legally was established during (or after, must check) WW2. The Holocaust was simply too extreme to be considered to justify as a "mass killing" so a term had to be determined universally so it would never happen again. If a country commits genocide today, they would have to compensate much more than simply losing a war they started.

So if you confuse the term "genocide" as "mass killing", then pretty much every nation in the world would be responsible historically for something they did. It must be strictly aimed to eliminate a race or specific group of people (not about a number either) to cause a genocide, which can bring an argument to the table if that was really the motivation of the killers (Americans vs native Indians or Ottoman vs Armenians).

The most recent example of Genocide I know of; When isis progressed further into Syria, they deliberately captured a group of people calling themselves "yezidi" (I don't know the english name of them) not allowing them to reach the Turkish boarder when trying to escape.

Yezidi's are comparable to a typical tribe, they have their own language, religion and population not greater than 1000's. They probably hated them the most, even more than Americans cause they didn't believe in 1 of the 3 great religions. Elderes were killed immediatly, young were killed if they didn't accept to change religion+identity, children/woman were either married or found an alternate family to live with...So it wasn't "civilian massacre" either which is a different level of war crime, isis goal was to exterminate a culture complete from history.

edit;
QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 4 2019, 02:50 AM) *
I was just reading about Turkey and Denial of the Armenian Genocide. It's evidently a thing in Turkey to just deny that 1.5 million people were killed by the ottomans. It's become nearly part of Turkish culture to just deny it almost ever happened.


This for example is plain wrong, of-course Turkey recognizes their death. This is why I recommend reading something that reflects both sides of opinions objectively, cause its easy to bump into the smell of anti-turk/muslim ideology behind too...

This post has been edited by Mertay: Jun 4 2019, 02:28 PM


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PosterBoy
post Jun 4 2019, 01:23 PM
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I'm 45 andI have never seen that picture before, that I can recall. That doesn't mean I don't know about/ read Auschwitz, the holocaust and the horrors that went on there.


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Adam
post Jun 4 2019, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 1 2019, 08:17 PM) *
I saw this on facebook and it made me think of Ken. I saw ken posted something similar on facebook and now another friend posted something that I found shocking. 2/3 of Millenials have no idea what this picture means. Before we blame the "indoctrination of the liberal elite through public school", let's realize that something this important should be shared by parents. It's not the job of the state to tell kids everything they need to know. Parents are doing a CRAP job of educating their own children evidently. If this image means nothing to most Millenials, it's a travesty of parenting imho.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2019/05/06/a...u3vwZZJ0iG1vlek
[attachment=48735:nazi.jpeg]

We were taken there on a school trip. Once in primary school and once in middle school. Half of the class felt uneasy walking there and 4 kids, me included, nearly fainted seeing horrors of that place.

In my opinion, it's about forgiving but not forgetting. And about learning lesson from others' mistakes. Those who committed these atrocities are long gone and can't be put to justice in any way. Same goes for Poland who suffered from WWII the most, since we were the reason it broke out in the first place. The Nazi Germans demolished our land, most notably beautiful Warsaw city and right after the war the Soviets stole whatever valuable was still left. Yet radical right wing people are still yapping about how the Germany owes us the war reparations, apparently never paid. Looking back at the history, the armies often destroyed the lands they invaded. Ancient Greece, Macedonia, Egypt, Persia, Rome, Attila, Cortes, Karl XII, the Europe's invasions in Northern America or the Soviets' genocide of the military and academics of Poland. WWII is no different and it's natural for the invaders to oppress and destroy the people they consider troublesome. Auschwitz is relatively modern and because the Third Reich lost the war, they had no chance to remove its traces from existence, so it's a genocide that could be recorded in great detail but it certainly wasn't the first one. The USA ruined Japan with just 2 nukes and that hit everyone in range, instead of hitting a specific group of people (like the military or industrial zones).

In my opinion, we should keep in mind what happened and learn our lesson. My friend's grandfather survived in Auschwitz and moved to Serbia to start a family. He kept saying that we can't change the past but we can shape our future. Personally I believe in the dialogue and diplomacy because holding grudges and seeking vengeance won't get us anywhere but will lead to repeating the mistakes of the past. Talking to each other causes us to understand each other's point of view, culture, etc. War chooses no nation. Conflict comes from misunderstanding and lack of mutual communication. My mom used to say when I and my brother were younger and had quarrels that the wiser one should give up. Now that I'm older I know that this can be applied to more than just regular siblings' fights.

Sabaton made a song about Auschwitz if anyone's interesting:



One of the reasons the world heard about it was Witold Pilecki, a soldier that agreed to get sent there, gather detailed intel on the proceedings and organize the resistance within the camp.
A Polish patriotic band made a song about WWII and among other topics, Cavalry Captain Pilecki. I couldn't find a version with English subs but maybe you'll like it nonetheless smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jun 6 2019, 02:06 AM
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I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) . It's not anti musilim or anti turk. It's just a news paper. Here is a clip.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/world/eu...n-genocide.html
Worried that the Christian Armenian population was planning to align with Russia, a primary enemy of the Ottoman Turks, officials embarked on what historians have called the first genocide of the 20th century: Nearly 1.5 million Armenians were killed, some in massacres like the one here, others in forced marches to the Syrian desert that left them starved to death.

The genocide was the greatest atrocity of the Great War. It also remains that conflict’s most bitterly contested legacy, having been met by the Turkish authorities with 100 years of silence and denial. For surviving Armenians and their descendants, the genocide became a central marker of their identity, the psychic wounds passed through generations.

It's just a matter of historical record and yet for some reason, parts of the Turkish Government and even Turkish educational system sorta act like those people just died by themselves. It's somewhat similar to Southerners trying to deny that we killed scores upon scores of Slaves or denying that we killed millions of indians. Some people still deny all of it for various reasons. Some people deny that nazis killed 6 million jews. There is plenty of Denial to go around smile.gif

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jun 4 2019, 05:05 AM) *
Term Genoside legally was established during (or after, must check) WW2. The Holocaust was simply too extreme to be considered to justify as a "mass killing" so a term had to be determined universally so it would never happen again. If a country commits genocide today, they would have to compensate much more than simply losing a war they started.

So if you confuse the term "genocide" as "mass killing", then pretty much every nation in the world would be responsible historically for something they did. It must be strictly aimed to eliminate a race or specific group of people (not about a number either) to cause a genocide, which can bring an argument to the table if that was really the motivation of the killers (Americans vs native Indians or Ottoman vs Armenians).

The most recent example of Genocide I know of; When isis progressed further into Syria, they deliberately captured a group of people calling themselves "yezidi" (I don't know the english name of them) not allowing them to reach the Turkish boarder when trying to escape.

Yezidi's are comparable to a typical tribe, they have their own language, religion and population not greater than 1000's. They probably hated them the most, even more than Americans cause they didn't believe in 1 of the 3 great religions. Elderes were killed immediatly, young were killed if they didn't accept to change religion+identity, children/woman were either married or found an alternate family to live with...So it wasn't "civilian massacre" either which is a different level of war crime, isis goal was to exterminate a culture complete from history.

edit;

This for example is plain wrong, of-course Turkey recognizes their death. This is why I recommend reading something that reflects both sides of opinions objectively, cause its easy to bump into the smell of anti-turk/muslim ideology behind too...


I agree. We should be aware of our history as the human race. Even when that history is repulsive. I'm a white, southern, male. My great grandparents lived in a time when blatant racism and homophobia were just normal. Even today the scars of hate are still with us here in the south. Many here feel that the Civil war is not over and that blacks should be kept separate and not allowed to marry whites. It's sad. sad.gif

I guess the term "attempted Genocide" fits Mertays definition more closely as the Nazis didn't succeed in killing every jew in Europe, just most of them. It's a sickening part of our past as citizens of this little planet. Slavery is also sickening. But we should teach our young people about these things in the home IMHO. They are part of who we are.

QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 4 2019, 10:50 AM) *
We were taken there on a school trip. Once in primary school and once in middle school. Half of the class felt uneasy walking there and 4 kids, me included, nearly fainted seeing horrors of that place.

In my opinion, it's about forgiving but not forgetting. And about learning lesson from others' mistakes. Those who committed these atrocities are long gone and can't be put to justice in any way. Same goes for Poland who suffered from WWII the most, since we were the reason it broke out in the first place. The Nazi Germans demolished our land, most notably beautiful Warsaw city and right after the war the Soviets stole whatever valuable was still left. Yet radical right wing people are still yapping about how the Germany owes us the war reparations, apparently never paid. Looking back at the history, the armies often destroyed the lands they invaded. Ancient Greece, Macedonia, Egypt, Persia, Rome, Attila, Cortes, Karl XII, the Europe's invasions in Northern America or the Soviets' genocide of the military and academics of Poland. WWII is no different and it's natural for the invaders to oppress and destroy the people they consider troublesome. Auschwitz is relatively modern and because the Third Reich lost the war, they had no chance to remove its traces from existence, so it's a genocide that could be recorded in great detail but it certainly wasn't the first one. The USA ruined Japan with just 2 nukes and that hit everyone in range, instead of hitting a specific group of people (like the military or industrial zones).

In my opinion, we should keep in mind what happened and learn our lesson. My friend's grandfather survived in Auschwitz and moved to Serbia to start a family. He kept saying that we can't change the past but we can shape our future. Personally I believe in the dialogue and diplomacy because holding grudges and seeking vengeance won't get us anywhere but will lead to repeating the mistakes of the past. Talking to each other causes us to understand each other's point of view, culture, etc. War chooses no nation. Conflict comes from misunderstanding and lack of mutual communication. My mom used to say when I and my brother were younger and had quarrels that the wiser one should give up. Now that I'm older I know that this can be applied to more than just regular siblings' fights.

Sabaton made a song about Auschwitz if anyone's interesting:



One of the reasons the world heard about it was Witold Pilecki, a soldier that agreed to get sent there, gather detailed intel on the proceedings and organize the resistance within the camp.
A Polish patriotic band made a song about WWII and among other topics, Cavalry Captain Pilecki. I couldn't find a version with English subs but maybe you'll like it nonetheless smile.gif


Wow! Never seen this one before and it's great!! Im sorry to hear that creating it was so uspetting but I can understand it. I was going to suggest we all work on some sort of musical project that could raise awareness of imporant things in history like the Holocaust, Slavery, etc. There is so much un truth on youtube about these issues. It would be good to put some real truth forward. If you ever think you are up for it, please elet me know
QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jun 4 2019, 02:55 AM) *
Yes that's a very good idea - it wouldn't surprise me since they are constantly touching upon the topic. For example they do have the track "Inmate 4859" which talks about Auschwitz.

I have also done one myself. It took me more than a month to get mentally stable after researching for the video - so I don't see myself to doing it again in the near future:



This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 6 2019, 02:01 AM
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jstcrsn
post Jun 6 2019, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 6 2019, 02:06 AM) *
I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) .

you Know you pushed to keep political discussion of this website , you should stop saying on thing and doing another, about throwing in a cheap little dig about fox being antisemitic when they were one of the few news organization that stood with Trump's decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem even though the three presidents before trump said they would , when Trump actually moved it
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Mertay
post Jun 6 2019, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 6 2019, 01:06 AM) *
...


I'll write something here on the Turkish view of the incident from my knowledge. It's more complicated (historically) than most assumes.

To keep things interesting for now; Did you know the first prime minister of Armenia Kacaznuni refused (proven through Russian archives) the incident of being a Genocide? or; Turkey is ready to compensate for anything (mass killing, civilian crime...) other than genocide, because only if accepted genocide then the Armenians will not only get compensation but a possibility of getting land from Turkey too.

By the way, yesterday on youtube blog https://youtube.googleblog.com

Removing more hateful and supremacist content from YouTube
YouTube has always had rules of the road, including a longstanding policy against hate speech. In 2017, we introduced a tougher stance towards videos with supremacist content, including limiting recommendations and features like comments and the ability to share the video. This step dramatically reduced views to these videos (on average 80%). Today, we're taking another step in our hate speech policy by specifically prohibiting videos alleging that a group is superior in order to justify discrimination, segregation or exclusion based on qualities like age, gender, race, caste, religion, sexual orientation or veteran status. This would include, for example, videos that promote or glorify Nazi ideology, which is inherently discriminatory. Finally, we will remove content denying that well-documented violent events, like the Holocaust or the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary, took place.
We recognize some of this content has value to researchers and NGOs looking to understand hate in order to combat it, and we are exploring options to make it available to them in the future. And as always, context matters, so some videos could remain up because they discuss topics like pending legislation, aim to condemn or expose hate, or provide analysis of current events. We will begin enforcing this updated policy today; however, it will take time for our systems to fully ramp up and we’ll be gradually expanding coverage over the next several months.

This post has been edited by Mertay: Jun 6 2019, 09:34 AM


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klasaine
post Jun 6 2019, 02:41 PM
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Regarding Jerusalem.

West Jerusalem has been the official 'governmental' capital of Israel since 1948.
Most countries of the world have their embassies in Tel Aviv-Yafo; the de-facto capital since 1948 because Jerusalem has been disputed as that capitol since 1948 by the UN and 90% of the world's countries as well as various Israeli Prime Ministers over the last 70+ years.

The U.S. embassy in Israel is located in Tel Aviv, but less well known is that the U.S. consulate-general is in Jerusalem, just around the corner from the Prime Minister’s residence (Talpiot neighborhood), and it handles diplomatic relations with the Palestinian Authority. It is one of nine consulates-general in Jerusalem, all of which serve the same purpose. Five of them: the UK, Turkey, Belgium, Spain and Sweden are in eastern Jerusalem. The consulates-general of the US, France, Italy, and Greece are in western Jerusalem. The European Union also has a representative office in eastern Jerusalem, and the Holy See has an Apostolic Nunciature there.

None of the countries that have consulates in Jerusalem recognize Israeli or Palestinian sovereignty over the city. Consequently, their official embassies remain in Tel Aviv. Their consulates in Jerusalem are, almost uniquely, accredited to no state.

It's a very very nuanced situation.
As of last year, the US merged it's embassy with it's consulate-general office in Jerusalem. This has effectively cut off much of the Israeli/Palestinian/US diplomacy and political interaction, naturally fomenting more frustration and strife. Gee, who'd a thunk it.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jun 6 2019, 03:26 PM
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AK Rich
post Jun 6 2019, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 5 2019, 05:06 PM) *
I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) . It's not anti musilim or anti turk. It's just a news paper. Here is a clip.[b][i]

Just for some balance because I really don't want to enter into another big political debate here.
Maybe the NYT is respected by some, but to others, like half the country or more, they are considered a propaganda mill not fit to line the bottom of a bird cage. And in fact, the NYT has a history of antisemitism both real and obvious, or perceived.
As recently as April this year. The NYT published a cartoon that was widely condemned as antisemitic, and was apologized for but then turned around within the span of a week or two published another that received the same backlash as the first. Those are just 2 real examples and I believe I could dig up more.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/28/business...ic-cartoon.html
https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/04/30/new-...emitic-cartoon/

The perceived examples go back to the time when the Holocaust was actually occurring. and although they did report on it, the NYT was allegedly either under reporting, downplaying or omitting important details about what was actually happening at the time, suppressing information that the NYT most certainly would have had considering the size and scope of the news organization.

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/10903
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/14/news/150...-holocaust.html

As far as Fox news goes. I do not believe they can be associated in any way with antisemitism or a far right ideology and I also don't believe you can show examples of either.
If you follow any news from Fox you would find that their coverage is actually quite balanced, and I am not talking about op/eds which are indistinguishable from news on most other news outlets in the country that have also become propaganda mills for progressives and the Democrat party, which by the way has at least two members of congress that have expressed antisemitic views recently.
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Todd Simpson
post Jun 6 2019, 09:45 PM
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Easy there, I did NOT say Fox was Anti Semitic. Please re read the post I was talking about people who slam the New York Times. It's quite simply the best paper we have in print. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). Yet I hear Fox complaining about them, and I hear anti semitic smears against the times such as "jews run the press". I'm not conflating the two.

This post is about history. Not politics. It's true that it's political history, but it's not talking politics. No mention of policy, no mention of trump, dems, repubs, etc. Started talking about concentration camps and genocide. Not talking policy and politics.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jun 5 2019, 10:56 PM) *
you Know you pushed to keep political discussion of this website , you should stop saying on thing and doing another, about throwing in a cheap little dig about fox being antisemitic when they were one of the few news organization that stood with Trump's decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem even though the three presidents before trump said they would , when Trump actually moved it


I was trying not to get in to politics. This thread was about history. But since you asked for an example... I am taken aback that you don't think FOX is Far Right wing. They define Far Right wing. here is an artiicle on each point for ya. The New York Times is still the most respected newspaper in the country. Always has been. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). People who don't like the times usually don't like it because they do actual journalism. Unlike say, Fox, who does punditry.I do follow fox news and it's the most unbalanced, biased, propogandized news source currently available on a cable or broadcast. It's little more than our version of Russia Today. To wit....
Anti semitism and Fox newshttps://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/04/1...-shooter/223423
Far Right Wing Propaganda and Fox newshttps://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-...-tom-rosenstiel

None of the sources I mention will have much impact though as I've noticed folks that like Fox just like it for what it is and that's fine.

But again, this thread was about HISTORY. About the picture of a notorious concentration camp and the fact that 2/3 of young folks could not recognize the image. I found that disturbing. It's that headline that got me to read the article in the first place The thread has been taken far afield from the original post which was just about millenials not knowing what a certain historical image represented.


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jun 6 2019, 02:15 PM) *
Just for some balance because I really don't want to enter into another big political debate here.

As far as Fox news goes. I do not believe they can be associated in any way with antisemitism or a far right ideology and I also don't believe you can show examples of either.
If you follow any news from Fox you would find that their coverage is actually quite balanced, and I am not talking about op/eds which are indistinguishable from news on most other news outlets in the country that have also become propaganda mills for progressives and the Democrat party, which by the way has at least two members of congress that have expressed antisemitic views recently.


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post Jun 6 2019, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 6 2019, 09:45 PM) *
Easy there, I did NOT say Fox was Anti Semitic. Please re read the post I was talking about people who slam the New York Times. It's quite simply the best paper we have in print. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). Yet I hear Fox complaining about them, and I hear anti semitic smears against the times such as "jews run the press". I'm not conflating the two.

This post is about history. Not politics. It's true that it's political history, but it's not talking politics. No mention of policy, no mention of trump, dems, repubs, etc. Started talking about concentration camps and genocide. Not talking policy and politics.



I was trying not to get in to politics. This thread was about history. But since you asked for an example... I am taken aback that you don't think FOX is Far Right wing. They define Far Right wing. here is an artiicle on each point for ya. The New York Times is still the most respected newspaper in the country. Always has been. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). People who don't like the times usually don't like it because they do actual journalism. Unlike say, Fox, who does punditry.Anti semitism and Fox news
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/04/1...-shooter/223423
Far Right Wing Propaganda and Fox newshttps://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-...-tom-rosenstiel

Fox news is about as far right wing as it gets without going straight to INFO WARS.



But again, this thread was about HISTORY. About the picture of a notorious concentration camp and the fact that 2/3 of young folks could not recognize the image. I found that disturbing. It's that headline that got me to read the article in the first place The thread has been taken far afield from the original post which was just about millenials not knowing what a certain historical image represented.

I think the left ( NYT) and such have as much propaganda as fox , Racheal madaw and CNN have practically held trial on Russia gate and yet mueleer's report said there was No colluding with Russia to swing the election,

and bvy the way tucker carlson agreed with some of the plans of Pocahontas
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Todd Simpson
post Jun 6 2019, 11:21 PM
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The NYT is not "The Left". Its' just the best newspaper in the united states. Simple as that. It is critical of those on "The Left" and "The Right". That's what balanced Journalism does. It doesn't favor one over the other. The Pulitzer prize is NOT given out to publications of propaganda. Only to the best Journalistic publications in print. The facts speak for themselves. It's that simple. I'm not going to get sucked in to a political romp about issues that have nothing to do with this threads OP. I didn't mention Mueller/Collusion. You did. I'm not diving in to that.


But we are off topic here. Let's get back to History.
QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jun 6 2019, 05:05 PM) *
I think the left ( NYT) and such have as much propaganda as fox , Racheal madaw and CNN have practically held trial on Russia gate and yet mueleer's report said there was No colluding with Russia to swing the election,

and bvy the way tucker carlson agreed with some of the plans of Pocahontas
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AK Rich
post Jun 7 2019, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 6 2019, 12:45 PM) *
I was trying not to get in to politics. This thread was about history. But since you asked for an example... I am taken aback that you don't think FOX is Far Right wing. They define Far Right wing. here is an artiicle on each point for ya. The New York Times is still the most respected newspaper in the country. Always has been. the New York times has won 127 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper (the highest award in journalism, period). People who don't like the times usually don't like it because they do actual journalism. Unlike say, Fox, who does punditry.I do follow fox news and it's the most unbalanced, biased, propogandized news source currently available on a cable or broadcast. It's little more than our version of Russia Today. To wit....
Anti semitism and Fox newshttps://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/04/1...-shooter/223423
Far Right Wing Propaganda and Fox newshttps://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-...-tom-rosenstiel

None of the sources I mention will have much impact though as I've noticed folks that like Fox just like it for what it is and that's fine.

But again, this thread was about HISTORY. About the picture of a notorious concentration camp and the fact that 2/3 of young folks could not recognize the image. I found that disturbing. It's that headline that got me to read the article in the first place The thread has been taken far afield from the original post which was just about millenials not knowing what a certain historical image represented.

Not sure how you get to Fox news being antisemitic because Hannity and Beck, who aren't journalists by the way, have speculated about 1 man, George Soros, who just happens to be Jewish, may be funding these migrant caravans. That's the best you've got? Lou Dobbs is a commentator as well and not a journalist but again, he is speculating about 1 man being behind the funding of these caravans and not the Jewish people as a whole. This theory is entirely plausible since Soros has stirred stuff like this up before in other countries.
It's completely obvious that someone or group is funding and organizing these caravans.
One more thing speaking of propaganda, you are correct about your sources. Media Matters and Vox have absolutely no credibility as reputable journalism but they are consistent. Consistently wrong at the end of the day if you look at their track record, especially over the last few years.
By the way. I don't watch Lou Dobbs or Hannity or even Fox news. I only read news articles online from not only Fox but many other news outlets, as much as I can stand anyways.
Fox news may have a slant to the right but if anyone truly believes that Fox news is somehow far right, it is only because of how far out in left field they are standing. Simply being conservative does not make anyone far right. It is a ridiculous notion.
Sorry to go off topic but your claims couldn't be left unchallenged.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Jun 7 2019, 01:44 AM
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jstcrsn
post Jun 7 2019, 02:29 AM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jun 7 2019, 01:40 AM) *
Not sure how you get to Fox news being antisemitic because Hannity and Beck, who aren't journalists by the way, have speculated about 1 man, George Soros, who just happens to be Jewish, may be funding these migrant caravans. That's the best you've got? Lou Dobbs is a commentator as well and not a journalist but again, he is speculating about 1 man being behind the funding of these caravans and not the Jewish people as a whole. This theory is entirely plausible since Soros has stirred stuff like this up before in other countries.
It's completely obvious that someone or group is funding and organizing these caravans.
One more thing speaking of propaganda, you are correct about your sources. Media Matters and Vox have absolutely no credibility as reputable journalism but they are consistent. Consistently wrong at the end of the day if you look at their track record, especially over the last few years.
By the way. I don't watch Lou Dobbs or Hannity or even Fox news. I only read news articles online from not only Fox but many other news outlets, as much as I can stand anyways.
Fox news may have a slant to the right but if anyone truly believes that Fox news is somehow far right, it is only because of how far out in left field they are standing. Simply being conservative does not make anyone far right. It is a ridiculous notion.
Sorry to go off topic but your claims couldn't be left unchallenged.

here is a list of that wonderful pulitzers , they used to do a good job , but with a list like this it is no wonder they were bought a few years back and have constantly been in the red . It has become a joke there are enough categories so almost everymajor news walks away with one and if this is the best they have done in the last 20 years , well ?
2001:The New York Times, for national reporting, for its compelling and memorable series exploring racial experiences and attitudes across contemporary America. David Cay Johnston, beat reporting, for his penetrating and enterprising reporting that exposed loopholes and inequities in the U.S. tax code, which was instrumental in bringing about reforms.
2002: The New York Times, for public service, for "A Nation Challenged," a daily special section covering the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, the war in Afghanistan and America's campaign against terrorism. The section, which included biographical sketches of the victims, also appeared online; The New York Times, for its informed and detailed reporting that profiled the global terrorism network and the threats it posed, a distinguished example of explanatory reporting; The New York Times, for its photographs chronicling the pain and the perseverance of people enduring protracted conflict in Afghanistan and Pakistan, a distinguished example of feature photography; The New York Times, for its consistently outstanding photographic coverage of the terrorist attack on New York City and its aftermath, a distinguished example of breaking news photography; Gretchen Morgenson, for her trenchant and incisive Wall Street coverage, a distinguished example of beat reporting; Barry Bearak, for his deeply affecting and illuminating coverage of daily life in war-torn Afghanistan, a distinguished example of reporting on international affairs; Thomas Friedman, for his clarity of vision, based on extensive reporting, in commenting on the worldwide impact of the terrorist threat.
2003: Clifford J. Levy, for investigative reporting, for his "Broken Homes" series that exposed the abuse of mentally ill adults in state-regulated homes.
2004: The New York Times, for public service, for its series written by David Barstow and Lowell Bergman that examined death and injury among American workers and exposed employers who break basic safety rules.
2005: Walt Bogdanich, for national reporting, for his investigative series about the corporate cover-up of responsibility for fatal accidents at railway crossings.
2006: Nicholas D. Kristof for commentary on bringing the genocide in Darfur to the world's attention; Joseph Kahn and Jim Yardley for international reporting for their examination of China's legal system; James Risen and Eric Lichtblau for national reporting for their coverage of the United States' government's secret eavesdropping program.
2007: Andrea Elliott for feature writing for coverage of an immigrant imam striving to serve his faithful in America.
2008: Amy Harmon for explanatory reporting on the social impact of genetic tests; Walt Bogdanich and Jake Hooker for investigative reporting on how contaminated ingredients from China make their way into consumer goods, including medicine.
2009: David Barstow for his tenacious reporting that revealed how some retired generals, working as radio and television analysts, had been co-opted by the Pentagon to make its case for the war in Iraq, and how many of them also had undisclosed ties to companies that benefited from policies they defended.
2010s
2010: Michael Moss, in Explanatory Reporting, for an investigative feature on food safety (e.g., contaminated meat); Matt Richtel, in National Reporting, for a series on the dangers of distracted driving; Sheri Fink of ProPublica in collaboration with The New York Times Magazine, in Investigative Reporting, for “The Deadly Choices At Memorial” about Hurricane Katrina survivors (award shared with the Philadelphia Daily News).[4][5]
2011: Clifford J. Levy and Ellen Barry, in International Reporting, for their “Above the Law” series, which examined abuse of power in Russia, showing how authorities had jailed, beaten or harassed citizens who opposed them; and David Leonhardt, in Commentary, for his weekly column “Economic Scene” which offered perspectives on the formidable problems confronting America, from creating jobs to recalibrating tax rates.[6]
2012: David Kocieniewski, in Explanatory Reporting, for his series on tax avoidance; and Jeffrey Gettleman, in International Reporting, for his reports on famine and conflict in East Africa.[7][8]
2013: David Barstow and Alejandra Xanic von Bertrab, in Investigative Reporting, for describing bribery by Walmart in Mexico; New York Times staff, in Explanatory Reporting, for examining global business practices of Apple Inc. and other technology companies; David Barboza, in International Reporting, for exposing corruption in the Chinese government; and John Branch, in Feature Writing, for "Snow Fall," a multimedia presentation about avalanches.[9]
2014: Tyler Hicks, in Breaking News Photography, for his compelling pictures that showed skill and bravery in documenting the unfolding terrorist attack at Westgate mall in Kenya; Josh Haner, in Feature Photography, for his moving essay on a Boston Marathon bomb blast victim who lost most of both legs and now is painfully rebuilding his life[10]
2015: Eric Lipton, in Investigative Reporting, for reporting that showed how the influence of lobbyists can sway congressional leaders and state attorneys general, slanting justice toward the wealthy and connected; New York Times staff, in International Reporting, for courageous front-line reporting and vivid human stories on Ebola in Africa, engaging the public with the scope and details of the outbreak while holding authorities accountable; Daniel Berehulak, in Feature Photography, for his gripping, courageous photographs of the Ebola epidemic in West Africa[11]
2016: Tyler Hicks, Mauricio Lima, Sergey Ponomarev and Daniel Etter for breaking news photography for coverage of the ongoing migrant crisis in Europe and the Middle East, and Alissa Rubin for international reporting for her coverage of the lives of women and girls in Afghanistan including the horrific murder of young Afghan woman who was beaten to death by a mob after being falsely accused of burning a Quran. John Woo and Adam Ellick produced a powerful accompanying video about the murder.[12]
2017: C.J. Chivers, in Feature Writing, for showing, through an artful accumulation of fact and detail, that a Marine’s postwar descent into violence reflected neither the actions of a simple criminal nor a stereotypical case of PTSD.
2017: The New York Times staff, in International Reporting, for agenda-setting reporting on Vladimir Putin’s efforts to project Russia’s power abroad, revealing techniques that included assassination, online harassment and the planting of incriminating evidence on opponents.
2017: Daniel Berehulak, in Breaking News Photography, for powerful storytelling through images published in The New York Times showing the callous disregard for human life in the Philippines brought about by a government assault on drug dealers and users. (Moved into this category from Feature Photography by the nominating jury.)
2018: Jodi Kantor, Megan Twohey, Emily Steel, and Michael S. Schmidt in Public Service, for "explosive, impactful journalism that exposed powerful and wealthy sexual predators, including allegations against one of Hollywood’s most influential producers, bringing them to account for long-suppressed allegations of coercion, brutality and victim silencing, thus spurring a worldwide reckoning about sexual abuse of women." (Received jointly with Ronan Farrow of "The New Yorker".) [13]
2018: Staff, in National Reporting, for "deeply sourced, relentlessly reported coverage in the public interest that dramatically furthered the nation’s understanding of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election and its connections to the Trump campaign, the President-elect’s transition team and his eventual administration." (Received jointly with the Washington Post.)[13]
2018: Jake Halpern and Michael Sloan, in Editorial Cartooning, for "an emotionally powerful series, told in graphic narrative form, that chronicled the daily struggles of a real-life family of refugees and its fear of deportation."[13]
2019: David Barstow, Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner, in Explanatory Reporting, for "an exhaustive 18-month investigation of President Donald Trump’s finances that debunked his claims of self-made wealth and revealed a business empire riddled with tax dodges."[14]
2019: Brent Staples, in Editorial Writing, for "editorials written with extraordinary moral clarity that charted the racial fault lines in the United States at a polarizing moment in the nation’s history."[14]
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Todd Simpson
post Jun 7 2019, 04:46 AM
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Sigh. Again. Never said fox news is Anti semitic. I'll say it again
I NEVER SAID FOX NEWS IS ANTI SEMITIC. Please go back and re read the post. Here is the text from said post just so you can read it.

I did reference an article in the New York Times which is the most respectable news paper we have in this country (unless one is a fan of Fox News, Far Right Propoganda, or Anti Semitic) . It's not anti musilim or anti turk. It's just a news paper. Here is a clip.


Notice that I didn't say that Fox is anti semitic. One a request was made to show an example of Fox Behaving in an anti semitic manner, I simply provided a link to such an example. There are plenty of them. I'm not going to keep sharing examples because there's no point. If you can't recognize the New York Times (Has won more Pulitzer Prizes than any Paper ever) as an authoritative source, then there is no source I can provide you with that you'd accept. That's on you though. Not me. But again that was NEVER my point never my assertion. That's something that you and carson accused me of saying which I never actually said. Now we have a string of posts of you two accusing me of saying something which I never said and we are way off topic. Hopefully this wraps that up.
Sadly, yes Fox news is far right by any standard or measure.Here is a handy chart by the university of Michigan which breaks it down. Fox is about as far right MSNBC is far left. This is a breakdown by a highly respected research institution, but if you can reject NYT as a source, then you probably will reject U Mich as well, and I guess only take Fox News as Gospel?
Attached Image



QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jun 6 2019, 08:40 PM) *
Not sure how you get to Fox news being antisemitic because Hannity and Beck, who aren't journalists by the way, have speculated about 1 man, George Soros, who just happens to be Jewish, may be funding these migrant caravans. That's the best you've got? Lou Dobbs is a commentator as well and not a .ay have a slant to the right but if anyone truly believes that Fox news is somehow far right, it is only because of how fa.n.
Sorry to go off topic but your clai.e left unchallenged.


Attacking the credibility of the Pulitzer prize is a new one. It's a weak argument to be sure, but it's new to me to see that argument. Despite what you may think the Pulitzer is still the highest award in the field of Journalism. Always has been such. So yeah, that's just not gonna hold water. It's still the highest award given for journalism. Simple as that.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jun 6 2019, 09:29 PM) *
here is a list of that wonderful pulitzers , they used to do a good job , but with a list like this it is no wo, in Editorial Writing, for "editorials written with extraordinary moral clarity that charted the racial fault lines in the United States at a polarizing moment in the nation’s history."[14]


IN BRIEF:

~No I never said fox was anti semitic. See above.
~Yes the Pulitzer Prize is the highest award in the field of Journalism. If you don't like the NYT, you have to blame Pulitizer I guess smile.gif It's weak, but it's all that's left.
~Yes Fox news is a Far right propaganda outlet just as much as MSNBC is a left wing propaganda outlet It's not legitimate news. It's punditry.


Having said that, if you wanna watch fox, great. if you wanna watch MSNBC great. Doesn't matter. They are what they are. I watch both.
Can we refocus back to History now?

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klasaine
post Jun 7 2019, 05:22 AM
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Wow, you all buy into the Soros thing.

OK.
Back to gear and soloing.
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Todd Simpson
post Jun 7 2019, 05:45 AM
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just shared a link smile.gif I don't buy in though. Agreed back to soloing!!! Still say parents should talk to kids about the holocaust.
Some folks think the earth is flat, some folks think the moon landing was fake. Some folks think the Holocaust never happened. It takes all kinds to fill up a bus.

QUOTE (klasaine @ Jun 7 2019, 12:22 AM) *
Wow, you all buy into the Soros thing.

OK.
Back to gear and soloing.


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