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Posted by: shellshock1911 Jan 4 2008, 05:22 AM

Yea so I've been looking around the collaborations lately I just want to know? How do yall come up with this stuff? I know it is a pretty broad question but I just don't get it. I can recite theory from a textbook 24 hours a day, I knowledge ridiculous amounts but don't know how to put it to use?

Posted by: FretDancer69 Jan 4 2008, 05:30 AM

maybe you should dedicate more time to playing than styding theory, not that its not important, but in the end, what will matter is how good your playing is. I find that a very strange question, i mean, if you practice and learn any lesson from here, you learn tons of licks and if you apply the theory knowledge you have, those licks can even be multpilied...

Posted by: shellshock1911 Jan 4 2008, 05:32 AM

Yea I've been thinking that too..but how do you just "learn licks" because then you are copying someone. I don't understand how that works.

EDIT: I hear someone people that say they "play what is in their head." Is that what the primary way is? Because for some reason when I think improv I picture someone thinking, ok they are playing Dm7, let me start on D, hit F, D, some more notes, land on D, next chord Fmaj, ok same process.

Posted by: Robin Jan 4 2008, 05:36 AM

Improvisation needs just as much practice as anything else. Learn new licks, make variations of those licks, create your very own licks and then use them for your improvisation. Jam an hour or two every day inside a scale.

Posted by: JVM Jan 4 2008, 05:36 AM

You just do whatever sounds good to you. You're not copying someone when you take a lick from them, it's almost expected in the beginning that you learn what other people do, then make it your own. Take any lick you think sounds good, play around with it, maybe change the rhythm of it, add a note here and subtract one there, etc. In time you just learn to come up with cool sounding stuff on the fly - I'm not there yet but I can tell I'm approaching it. Learning to improvise is my #1 goal right now.

Posted by: shellshock1911 Jan 4 2008, 05:41 AM

Thats the thing though I don't understand how to "jam inside a scale" without just playing the scale or making up random crap to the point to where it is obvious that you are purposely trying to avoid playing the scale note for note.

Posted by: The Uncreator Jan 4 2008, 05:45 AM

When i improv i take in to advice what the great Billy Sheehan told me

"When i Improv, All i do is know the key im in, and think patterns, i dont think of notes, just patterns"

Try that, you know a few fingering pattern that form cool licks, as long as you know the key youre in, try to apply it to that, mess around just play what you feel, sounds stupid, but just play almost like....Organized Randomization.

Posted by: Zephyr Jan 4 2008, 05:45 AM

Hmm... maybe you are spending too much time on theory? Theory is important, but no where near as important as the music itself... that sounds strange, but it's true, in my opinion!

You don't need to know music theory to play amazing music. Having soul and creativity in your music doesn't come from knowledge, but just from you. Theory is a tool that can help you understand why music works and sounds the way it does, but knowing hows it works isn't the same as knowing how to play it!

I would advise that you just try to not worry so much about theory for a while, just sit with your guitar and play what comes to you. See what happens. I don't mean that you can't think about theory at all, but, for example, find a backing track/song, find what key it's in, and just mess around. See what sounds good and what doesn't. The rules of music are just made to be broken, anyways, in my opinion... And, most importantly, have fun, and play what you're feeling!

Posted by: Robin Jan 4 2008, 05:50 AM

I recommend starting with GMC's blues lessons. Even if you don't like blues it's a great way of starting out with improvising. Use those licks and jam. Later you can make your own licks and get better at phrasing etc.
But in the start I think copying licks is important, gotta start somewhere.
It takes months/years to get good at it.


Of course.

Posted by: FretDancer69 Jan 4 2008, 05:57 AM

Ok, to jam inside a scale is to stay inside the key of the scale, i mean, if you're playing over a backing and you want improvise with the G Major scale, what you're gonna do, is , use the notes of the G Major scale, not in a Box pattern (like you do when you practice the scales up and down) but simply making licks out of those noets, maybe some arpeggios, tappings, some speedpicking runs, vibratos on root notes, stuff like that, phrasing that will just spice up your improvisation.

Posted by: shellshock1911 Jan 4 2008, 05:59 AM

Shouldn't have said improv, I meant just soloing, whether pre-planned or improvised.

My guitar heros are Michael Romeo and John Petrucci I watched Romeo's instructional video and he is like "Ok now we are gonna use HW Dimished over Emadd9, then play F#11 arpeggio over this Phrygian Dominant cycle of 4ths progression, etc, etc, etc." So after seeing that it really inspired me to learn theory all day, because I want to play like him. Blues, jazz, and funk soloing is cool and all but it just doesn't do it for me sometimes. I like progressive and neo-classical soloing mainly, so when I make my first attempt at making a solo or something, that is sort of the sound that I want to come out.

Kinda got off topic but yea, I don't see how you can just mess around and come up with progressive and neo-classical style licks, they always end up sounding pentatonic and bluesy to me, which is the sound I am trying to aviod.

EDIT: Actually the post I just wrote kinda reminded me of David Walliman's lessons, maybe those will help me understand how to "jam."

EDIT again: And, forgot to say, the main reason I like to read about theory stuff all day because I can instantly see progress. For example I read something that says Major chord= 1-3-5. There in 2 seconds I just learned a huge thing instantly. When I try to go back to actual playing that "instant" progress that comes in learning isn't there in playing so I tend to just drag back into more theory stuff.

Posted by: Robin Jan 4 2008, 06:03 AM

Pick a scale you like, find the root note and play Others might want to make it theoretically correct though(I personally don't see the point as long as it sounds good).

Posted by: JVM Jan 4 2008, 06:20 AM

The thing about patterns is totally right. If you think in playing scalar notes, you'll just end up plunking around playing something that has no direction. I've done my share of this

What thinking in patterns is useful for is that when you see a pattern and play it, you can then do a variation on it. You don't have to play it twice - say you're playing in triplets, you might do a quick run through a pattern you like, then do it again but in a different arrangement and when you're done with that it sounds like one cohesive thing.

Use the scale to know the strong notes (at least to start with) and build patterns around them, like chord changes and such.

[edit]

And robin is right that improv takes practice like anything else.. it's kind of a mental practice. For the love of god, don't shred when you're trying to learn to improv. Play slowly, if you play too fast you won't be able to think why what you're doing sounds bad. Thats why the blues is a great place to start. Eventually you'll be able to make "patterns" and licks up quickly and you can start improvising at your maximum speed. But until then take it slow.

Posted by: Jerry Arcidiacono Jan 4 2008, 11:12 AM

Mmmm... Think to patterns can be useful but the ultimate step for me is to have the notes in your head before you play them.
If someone turn off your amp you should sing the rest of the impro.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Jan 4 2008, 11:16 AM

agreed. I'll go as far as to think up a melody/over-arching pattern before I even pick up a guitar, then just try to play what was in my head. I think a good sense of intervals is important too.

Btw Jerry, love your new profile pic

Posted by: Dejan Jan 4 2008, 11:33 AM

You need to develop your 'imagination' skills, to hear the melody in your head. The theory will help you to 'copy' the melody from your head to music that all others can hear. Try to listen to backing and to 'imagine' your melody over it, and then to improvize the melody.

Of course, you can learn various licks in varios keys and scales, but that is something similar to LEGO BRICKS, you don't make the melody, you actually assemble it

Improvization is nothing more than creating a melody on-the-fly

Posted by: Spiderusalem Jan 4 2008, 11:41 AM

very well said Dejan. I'm going to steal your metaphor about the lego bricks =P

Posted by: mattacuk Jan 4 2008, 11:47 AM

For me when I started It was all about patterns! But recently ive noticed I just pick up my guitar and play!! My fretboard knowledge is alot more "intimate" since i learnt all of the pitches on the fretboard. Typically I can find a scale/key *alot* quicker than I used to

I agree with what Dejan has said about imagination, I find it very usefull in creating melodys

Posted by: Smells Jan 4 2008, 12:03 PM

agree with Matt here, if you can learn your patterns and box shapes, find the key and play around within those boxes, it takes practice like everything else, for me theory doesnt play a major part of the solo, more a "feel" of what fits and what sounds good, however a knowledge of theory for what scales/patterens etc you can play within the keys is of course helpful, sometimes melodies will come into your head that you can transpose to the fretboard,I usually improvise around with the collab backings until I come up with a "set" solo that fits and hopefully flows.

Posted by: mattacuk Jan 4 2008, 12:09 PM

Good advice smells !!

I belive theory is very important to suppliment your guitar playing !! But actual composition should come through the creativity in your mind and on the fretboard. (just my humble veiw though )

You can then use all things youve learnt theory wise to spice things up. If im jamming in a key I then see what techniques I can fit in with it, like sweep arpeggios or tapping etc.

Posted by: KloCkWorXx Jan 4 2008, 12:51 PM

i actually no nothing about theory at all and ive improv ed alot of my solos (when i found out what an octave was id start by adding 12 frets from the lowest chord note!!) kinda sad.. haha so if it was something with an open E id start on the 12 fret n do something there.. sounds stupid but worked being a beginner... im actually learnin the theory now which is boring but im just hoping it makes me better.. your ear will tell u if it fits or not.. if u get stuck just bend the note till it sounds good , or retreat with a quick fade out haha.

Posted by: mattacuk Jan 4 2008, 12:53 PM

Nice avatar by the way

Posted by: KloCkWorXx Jan 4 2008, 01:01 PM

haha who wouldnt like a masked nun-chucking techno dancing sweep picking 8 fingertapping guitarist for there avatar?? haha i like your signature !! "huh huh u like it?, yeah i like it, its good"

Posted by: Muris Jan 4 2008, 03:03 PM

Patterns are really nice way of thinking while jamming or improvising.
But you shall also think of notes imho,
specially when you have more chords in progression,
just to avoid laying down on "wrong" notes.

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Jan 4 2008, 03:12 PM

I believe that improvisation is a very complex mental process. It all starts with the melody inside your head. And it finishes off with the same melody on your guitar. There are a whole array of skills needed to do an impro but the most important one is to know your freatboard and have developed you ear to that extent that you can translate the notes from your head to the ones on the fretboard. This goes something like this:

Note in your head -------- note on the fretboard

so it is obvious that you need to know where are the notes on the fretboard that you hear in your head. For example think of just two notes and try to play them on the neck. repeat it a number of times and you'll see that you can play the notes with more ease.

The other thing is that during your playing and learning process you acquire some licks and skill needed to play certain melodies. So you already have some premade melodies in your head learned form other musicians and you r own playing. Combine that together and melodies of your own and make you own impros easier and easier as playing becomes second nature. And remember all of this comes after a lifetime of hard work and practice.

Posted by: shellshock1911 Jan 4 2008, 04:46 PM

Alright thx for all the informative posts. I've already learned a lot just from this. I had never even heard of the idea of recreating a melody you hear in your head until now.

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 4 2008, 05:18 PM

I agree that - ideally - an improvisation should be something coming from your imagination. And that it should be something which can be sung.

However, it takes a long, long time to get there - if you ever get there, that is..

Play your scales to death all over the neck.
Then start playing those scale boxes in different patterns and rythms.
Both the diatonic and the pentatonic stuff.

Each time I get a new pattern written into my finger memory, my improvising sounds less like playing scales up and down.

Know enough patterns and you'll start to get really intimate with your guitar fretboard.

A lot of these patterns are used a lot in music, especially as fast runs from one *big* note to another - just listen to Page and Clapton and Slash and Hammett, and..
That's not stealing - ask any great guitarists.

Posted by: at lights end Jan 4 2008, 05:34 PM

im not brilliant at improvising on a guitar.

but im about grade 6 on sax and can improvise ok. i just think what key or scale im in, and remember what notes would sound bad (the ones that aren't in that key.), then just play, anything up high, down low, middle, low again jump to high...e.t.c. and add trills and things. It would be more difficult to do on guitar though as there are a lot more frets, and strings than there are keys on a sax and you'd have to remember the fretboard. it depends how you've learnt the guitar, i've been using tabs for guitar, wheareas i learnt the sax in standard notation.

Posted by: jacmoe Jan 4 2008, 05:41 PM

Forgot to say that arpeggios is a great way to start sound more melodic!

Posted by: mattacuk Jan 4 2008, 06:54 PM

I find this thread one of the most interesting ones ive come across !! Its really good to get an insight into how each of us go through this process

Posted by: shellshock1911 Jan 5 2008, 06:46 AM

Alright guys I did the "jamming" things yall talked about yesterday and I just wanted to show you guys something I came up over a backing track with since it is like my first day trying this out.

The key I thought was cool was F minor and the chord progression I came up with was F5-Eb5-F5-Db5. Well since this is minor chord progression it is basically Fm-Ebmaj-Fm-Dbmaj. Tempo was about 154. The scales I used were Natural Minor and Harmonic Major so I could keep the same pattern but over a major chord. I came up with some licks but the main one I thought was cool was this one, I'll write in tab because I don't have a recording machine. All of these are sixteenth notes so it is pretty fast.

Fm
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------13-11-13-14-13-11-------------13-11-13-14-13-11-------------|
|-10---------------------------13---10--------------------------13--------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Ebmaj
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-----11-9-11-12-11-9-----------11-9-11-12-11-9-----------------------|
|-8------------------------12--8------------------------12------------------|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Then same thing as first pattern because the chord goes back to Fm, then the same pattern but starting on Db.

Yep so thats it, I came up with some other random stuff but that is the one I wanted to show because it was my favorite and I wanted to make sure I'm on the right tarck. I thought it sounded kinda like an melodic interlude that progressive guitarists like Michael Romeo like to do before launching into an insane solo.

Posted by: Kosei Kubota Jan 5 2008, 06:56 AM

I am a bad example of a classical guy, who can't really improvise well, and this thread is very interesting.

I agree with idea of "melody in your head".
When I play any piece someone else composed (like Bach), I am singing it in my head while playing.

I think all musical ideas come from singing and/or dancing.

I can't sing aloud or dance while I'm playing, so I sing in my head at least.

Posted by: mattacuk Jan 5 2008, 09:42 AM

I just had this fantastic image of you singing, playing and danceing around the room alltogether Kosei !

Posted by: Muris Jan 9 2008, 12:19 AM

Looks interesting indeed

Posted by: Smells Jan 15 2008, 02:23 PM

This is a little late in coming Shellshock, I planned to have it posted a week (ish) ago, its just a rough guide, but hopefully will help with your original questions too check it out http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=10669

Posted by: Rhoads To Madness Jan 18 2008, 10:16 PM

If you can record your improv sessions and save them. This is very important for a couple of reasons. First you can go back and to them and be able to hear the improvements you have made after a few weeks, months or years of practice. Second when you play something really cool while improving youll have a record of it. Maybe you meant to throw in one of Romero's licks but the timing was a little different or you landed on a different note, but it sounded great. You can go back and duplicate "your" new lick! This will really help you develop your own style. Hope this helps

Posted by: JasoninOhio Jan 19 2008, 02:25 AM

The easiest way to improv is to record everything you play. Then, sit with your guitar and play over the lead/rythmn licks while listening to what you've already recorded. Sooner than later, you will find notes that will sound better to you than just the scale notes you've already played. Believe me, it really works. It takes time but, it does 2 things for you. It teaches you notes and phrasings as well as training your fingers to hit certain spots while playing.

Posted by: jammer91 Jan 19 2008, 10:52 AM

Hi shellshock,

Ive got EXACTLY the same problem.
1- How to put scales to use?
2- How to put licks into scales?


Butyoure better off than me because you know your chord progressions and stuff and how to use them, while i just consider them more for a acoustic chordy song.

I know im being close minded, but i think im doing fine till now.

Here are some real troubleing questions because ive got the scales bit down but now i need to know how to put licks into them.

Firstly when a the backing track is set to a key (say B ), do i have to use a certain scale in the key of B or just any scale or mode in the key of B?

Secondly, Can licks be used in any key or any scale or are they limited to certain scales or keys? (For example if you look at the lick of the day, you usually notice that Kris specifies what key and scale you can use the lick. Why cant we just put in the lick into any key or even any scale)?

How do you seperate licks from a ton of notes? For example im now wroking on this lesson:
http://guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/blues-saraceno-rock-licks/
If you take a look at the tab of vid one you see loads of notes and tak to me doesnt seem like a single lick (more like many licks). How do i spot out a single lick i want to improvise with?

My final problem is moving licks around. I dont exactly under stand you to move a lick up and down the fretboard because the intervals change. What i do i simply put the lick anywhere in the fretboard and try and figure out where the notes go.


Is there any lesson on GMC to help me with my problem? How did you guys overcome these issues.

Posted by: Smells Jan 19 2008, 12:45 PM

Hey jammer

following up your PM and this post, this is exactly what I`m following up on, its hard to explain into text (well I find it is) I`ll try and do something as soon as poss that may help you, the idea is taking licks from lessons and putting them into your improv`s, some of the advise above is well worth reading through, a lot of it comes with time tho mate

Posted by: zoom Jan 19 2008, 02:17 PM

Hi Guys

Just thought I throw in my 2 bob's worth. Man this question about what to play is so relavant to me.
I feel though that I've just turned the corner and I'm just starting to get some good idea's.
GMC has taught me so much.
I like melodic sounding stuff alot and alot of these sounding lessons I have found are arpeggios/chords like 1st 3rd and 5th maybe with a 7th or 9th. So I've found heaps of places on the neck to play these arpeggios and I'm really injoying it.
then maybe after an appeggio I'll play a straight scale type pattern then maybe a blues lick and some bends.
I've still got a long way to go but for me appeggios have been a great breakthrough. I can see light at the end of the tunnel.
One of the things Kris said which helped me sign up was he thought he would never be a great player because he wasn't gifted but he can play
and this place has tools and great people to help me and you.
I've been hare for almost a year now and I am stoked.
Don't give up. Get addicted and practice hard.

Posted by: jammer91 Jan 19 2008, 02:21 PM

Thanks Smells. After viewing one of your improvisational lessons i did get some understanding how its done. Right now my improvisation is sorta empty (im picking notes between pentatonic boxes). I want to be able to use licks that i learnt in GMC (that is the only way anyone can put what they learnt to use). Thanks again Smells for taking so much initiative.

Posted by: Gus Jan 22 2008, 06:43 PM

Hey, I am also trying to figure out how I can improvise better (or create cool solos in general) and even put my own signature on them.

Well, one of the most relieving things about soloing I ever read was David Gilmour talking about the way he created the comfortably numb solo:
"I just went out into the studio and banged out five or six solos. From there I just followed my usual procedure, which is to listen back to each solo and mark out bar lines, noting which bits are good. In other words, I make a chart, putting ticks and crosses on different bars as I count through - two ticks if it's really good, one if it's good, and a cross if it's no go. Then I just follow the chart, whipping one fader up, then another fader, jumping from phrase to phrase and trying to make a really nice solo all the way through"

From http://guitar.about.com/cs/guitartab/qt/solo_com_numb.htm

I always thought that cool solos were created by gifted people who magically came up with cool melodies . The way he described it looked more of the work of a craftsmanship seeking for perfection when turning raw diamonds into a cut gemstone.

I felt that one day i can also create a masterpiece such as comfortably numb