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Posted by: Mark. May 11 2009, 04:31 PM

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Posted by: Muris Varajic May 11 2009, 04:50 PM

Minor6 would be root inside of a Dorian mode, well spotted.
Min7b5 would be root in Locrian but as you know
it's pretty unstable mode be used as a root.
There are MANY chords that have same notes
and it's only root or note in bass that makes them different, good research!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion May 11 2009, 05:05 PM

Well you've both lost me lol. Maybe I have a lot more reading to do. I'm too busy reading about Quantum Physics

Posted by: Muris Varajic May 11 2009, 05:10 PM

I would be more than lost in Quantum Physics, we're even.

Posted by: Mark. May 11 2009, 05:11 PM

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Posted by: Muris Varajic May 11 2009, 05:23 PM

Correct, you can put Cm6 instead of Cm7 to get more of Dorian sound
and of course Cm6 (or Cmaj6) isn't 7th chord but triad with added 6
so it' not made like regular 7th chord by adding 3rds up.

And yeah, you can play many of those chords using same shape or some inversion,
you just need to ask your bass player for help with root and there you go.

Posted by: Mark. May 11 2009, 05:45 PM

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Posted by: Muris Varajic May 11 2009, 05:46 PM

Yeah, if you lay them down like that the whole formula
just shifts one spot as you move through modes, pure logic.

Posted by: Oxac May 11 2009, 05:58 PM

Also a soloing tip

Over min6 chords you could use the melodic minor from the same root.

And since min6 often is used in minor blues where a modulation a fourth up (ex. Cmin6 - Fmin6) is very common, I find it very enthralling to modulate into the Harmonic minor scale of the first chord (otherwise you'd be playing the major third over the minor chord... not very appreciated by many).

Example: C melodic minor
© D Eb F G A B C

Cmin6

C Eb G A

C Harmonic Minor:
C D Eb (F) G Ab B C

Fmin6
F Ab C D


With F as root this would be something like Lydian minor I think.

Posted by: Muris Varajic May 11 2009, 06:03 PM

Melodic minor works over min6 chord indeed,
just watch out for rest of the progression and you're good.

Posted by: Mark. May 11 2009, 06:09 PM

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Posted by: Pedja Simovic May 12 2009, 02:53 AM

Let me add just two things here...

Minor 6th chord is not only for Dorian but can be Melodic Minor root chord. C Eb G A = C minor 6 = belongs to both C dorian and melodic minor.

Minor 7b5 is actually used as 6th mode of Melodic minor !!!
Aeolian b5 is the name of the mode.

I will not get too much now into theory but lets just say that Aeolian b5 mode offers way more possibilities for resolution and soloing then Locryian mode.
Hope that makes sense !

Posted by: Mark. May 12 2009, 12:21 PM

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Posted by: Emir Hot May 12 2009, 12:37 PM

I love min6 chord. I use it non stop. Gipsy jazz guitarists play that chord most of the time. Imagine Dm7, Gm and A7. They almost always play Gm6 instead of Gm. You can also substitute it with Em7b5 as this chord has exactly the same notes as Gm6. You get really interesting sound color when mixing two of these in the chord progression.

Posted by: Mark. May 12 2009, 12:45 PM

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Posted by: Emir Hot May 12 2009, 12:53 PM

I think it is correct. The only thing is how you pronounce that first chord I think this is the correct way of saying: min/maj7

And these are Melodic Minor modes:

1. Ionian b3 (Melodic Minor)
2. Dorian b2
3. Phrygian "b1" (Lydian #5)
4. Lydian b7
5. Mixolydian b6
6. Aeolian b5
7. Locrian b4 (super Locrian)

You can find some different names. People call these many different ways. The formula is always used in a way that you don't end up with 2 same numbers in the formula. It always has to be somehow 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and now some is raised and some flattened but no both sharp and flat in one formula. Only 1 kind of accidental can be used.

Posted by: Mark. May 12 2009, 01:00 PM

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Posted by: Pedja Simovic May 12 2009, 01:34 PM

There are couple of things you missed buddy...


V scale degree in Melodic minor is actually Dominant 7th chord !

G7 = G B D F

C melodic minor = C D Eb F G A B C
G mixolydian b13 = G A B C D Eb F G

So scale degrees IV and V are BOTH dominant 7th chords.

Another thing that you can notice is VII Scale degree.

Lets look at a Super Locryian or ALTERED scale/mode from C melodic minor.

B C D Eb F G A B

Possible triads here are :

- B D F = B diminished
- B Eb(D#) G = B augmented

Possible 4 note chords here are

- B D F A = Minor 7b5
- B Eb G A = Dominant 7#5 or Aug 7th chord


A lot of people use chord Dominant 7#9. Hendrix was one of the first who over used it in almost all of his songs !

What many people dont know is this chord with guitar voicing provided actually comes from VII scale degree of melodic minor !!!

Lets take a look at guitar voicing from bottom up using B7#9 as example:

B D#(Eb) A D !

B is played on A , D# on D A on G and D on B string !


You all know this voicing and move it around as many times as you want.

Whats interesting is that this Dom7#9 voicing is missing some sort of 5th in it. There is only Root 3rd and b7 (guide tones) + #9 tension !
Many times guitar and piano player will leave out ROOT and FIFTH of the chord since bass player will fill that in.


So to draw a conclusion here, Dom7#9 chord is VII scale degree of Melodic minor.
If you want to be too picky and exact and add some sort of 5th it would be G note which is #5 or you can call it b6 or 13 even.

So your final chord would be B7#5#9 or B7#9b13 etc


Hope that helps.

Posted by: Emir Hot May 12 2009, 01:58 PM

Great post Pedja

I would just add that every altered chord fits within Super Locrian mode. There are 24 possible combinations of those if I remember correctly.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic May 12 2009, 02:00 PM

Thanks Emir

There is b9 #9 , b5 (#11) #5(b13) so I guess you can get 24 different variations out of it. I didn't count it all - yet ! Haha

Posted by: Mark. May 12 2009, 02:08 PM

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Posted by: enforcer May 12 2009, 02:19 PM

It's a relatively simple but alien concept. It's very easy to learn if you open your mind and try to forget realities from everyday life and surely if you don't dig very deep in quantum mechanics. You just have to read is as if it was a childs tale...

Posted by: Pedja Simovic May 12 2009, 02:39 PM

You welcome Mark.

In my last collaboration I was encouraging usage of Altered mode over E7#9 chord (F melodic minor). Nobody did it but there will be more ways to use it, perhaps in some future collaborations. Keep an eye for them and participate if you are available. It will definitely help you put all this theory to practical use and make music with it.

Thanks man

Posted by: Mark. May 12 2009, 02:47 PM

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Posted by: Pedja Simovic May 12 2009, 03:26 PM

Great to hear that Mark.
Lesson is live on main page , here is a link http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/time_feel_collaboration_solo_/

Posted by: Mark. May 12 2009, 03:39 PM

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Posted by: Pedja Simovic May 12 2009, 03:40 PM

Thanks Mark, I posted you link here because of looped backing !