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Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 5 2007, 02:11 AM

Introduction

In this lesson we are going to look at our first scale, the Minor Pentatonic scale (more on the blues part later). In the introduction to scales we went over a few reasons that you might want to learn scales and how important they are to you as a musician. Well particularly for guitar, the Pentatonic is a great scale to learn. It is usually the first scale taught with good reason. It is pretty simple, and it works really well over simple chord progressions, and is a great place to start practicing improvisation for soloing.

Introducing the Minor Pentatonic Scale

The first thing to note about the Pentatonic scale is that it only has 5 notes (hence the Penta- in its name). Now since this is the first scale we have looked at in depth that migh not seem like a big deal, but in fact it is interesting because most scales you will learn inthe future have 7 notes in them. Among other things, this makes the pentatonic scale easier to play and finger because it only has 2 notes on each string. The Pentatonic comes in both major and minor - we will concentrate on the Minor Pentatonic scale in this lesson.

In the scales introduction we found out that any scale can be described by a simple numeric formula, and the Pentatonic scale is no exception to this.

Its formula is: 3 2 2 3 2

Lets see how this works in an example, for instance G Minor Pentatonic.

We start with G as our root note, and add each step of the formula to get the next note:

G + 3 semitones is Bb
Bb + 2 semitones is C
C + 2 semitones is D
D + 3 semitones is F
F + 2 semitones is G

So there you have it - G minor pentatonic is the notes G, Bb, C, D, F, G. You can apply this formula with any other root note to get the exact scale that you want.


On The Fretboard


So how does this look on the guitar? Well, since we have 5 notes, we also have 5 possible boxes or patterns for each key of the Minor Pentatonic, here they all are fr G Minor:












Remember that you can move these patterns up and down the neck to get the exact scale you want. For instance, if you want A minor Pentatonic, then you work it out as follows:

The root note A is 2 semitones up from G, so just move each of these patterns up 2 frets and voila, you have patterns for A minor pentatonic.

Also, the patterns repeat up the neck after the first five - so if you want to go up higher, start again with the first pattern played with the G root note played on the 15th fret instead of the 3rd fret.

The Blues Scale

The blues scale is very closely related to the minor pentatonic scale, and is used unsurprisingly in blues. The blues players often ad an attitional passing note to the pentatonic scale which is technically known as a flattened 5th - that means an extra note in between notes 3 and 4 of the pentatonic scale. This note is called the blue note, and when you add it to the minor pentatonic scale you get the blues scale. Since they are so closely related, I thought I'd mention it here!

Adding in that extra note changes the formula to look like this : 3 2 1 1 3 2, and our example G minor Pentatonic becomes G, Bb, C, Db, D, F, G when rewritten as the blues scale.

Lets look at our boxes again with the blue note included (shown in green just to be awkward!)












The Minor Pentatonic Scale in Action

Ok, now we know how to play the Minor Pentatonic and the Blues scale, lets talk about how we can put them into action. Both the Pentatonic and the Blues scales are particularly suitable for playing Rock and 12 bar blues with. Lets focus on 12 bar blues - a very pretty simple concept that has produced some amazing music over the years. Its elements are simple - a repeating chord sequence, and use of the pentatonic scale.

The chords you use are a type of I, IV, V progression - what that means isn't really important at this stage, but the chords you would use with a G minor or Pentatonic scale would be as follows (One chord represents 1 measure):

G - G - G - G - C - C - G - G - D - C - G - D

With this chord sequence as a backing, you can play sequences of notes from any of the pentatonic boxes and you will get a bluesy kind of improvisation going. For additional blues inspiration, take a look at the Blues section of the Video lessons - Gabriel has out together some awesome blues lessons to get you started!

Thats it - questions and comments in the forum!

 Pentatonic.mp3 ( 151.72K ) : 7786


 Blues.mp3 ( 152.44K ) : 6810

Posted by: Gen Jul 5 2007, 02:17 AM

Awsome lesson Andrew, its really helpful!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 5 2007, 02:19 AM

Wow, it was only up for 6 minutes Glad you liked it!

Posted by: Gen Jul 5 2007, 02:31 AM

i can read really fast Im a mutant!!
And i also refresh the forums like 20 times in one minute(i think that s the reason) lol
GMC addict!

Posted by: blindwillie Jul 5 2007, 07:52 AM

Excellent.
Thanks Andrew

Posted by: Ryan Jul 5 2007, 08:04 AM

Ive always wanted to learn the minor penta. scale, but I have a really big question. Ok, the major scale. has the same boxes. With a few extra added notes. Correct??

Well if so. Whats the point, of just using the minor penta. scale when you have less notes than the major scale??
I think its just that they have different root notes. So it makes the minor, feel more differnet than the major. Correct??

I think im getting htis minor thing totally wrong!!

I know its a good easy beginner scale. To learn, and to start improv. and making your own licks, and all. And i also know. Its a very important scale. But i cant figure out why!!!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 5 2007, 04:19 PM

Almost - you need to compare the Minor Penta with the Minor scale and the Major Penta with the Major scale.



No, the root notes would be the same if ytou stick to the rule I mentioned above. I can see where your confusion comes from though, because if you move up one pattern in the Minor Pentatonic boxes, you are actually playing Major pentatonic if you shift the root note to the E string - this is because Major Pentatonic is a mode of Minor Pentatonic

Basically a scale is a list of notes you use for playing. If you change the list, the song will sound different, and that's about it. Pentatonic has some advantages - it is simpler (less notes) and is playable 2 notes per string. Its sparse note set means you can get away with playing what is essentially a minor scale over majoe chords (as in the Blues).

Major Pentatonic if you make a tune out of it can sound almost Japanese - its all about the notes you use and scales control that.


Regards,

Andrew

Posted by: kahall Jul 5 2007, 11:43 PM

Andrew, your lessons are always very detailed, so much so that I will only check them out when my brain is in full college mode. They're great. That said they (Kris) really should give you your own area to post them. The forum is not the right place to get the proper formating. Horizontal scrolling is just a pet peeve of mine. When do you have time to play the guitar anyway?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 6 2007, 12:05 AM

LOL - I sometimes wonder if this theory stuff is inhibiting my development, I certainly could use the practice!

Regarding formatting and moving lesons out of the Forum - I totally agree, it has been on my mind for a while now - I want these lessons to be the best they can.

Fortunately, Kris agrees (he's not such a bad chap!) and we are working on a scheme to move the lessons lock stock and barrel to a new area of the site similar to the video lessons, along with some extra stuff from Kaneda. Stay tuned, the only way is up!

Posted by: Ryan Jul 7 2007, 08:44 AM

Hey sounds like fun, and seems like it would help with theory a lot better!!. I can always learn better when someone talks to me about it, and show me. Rather than just reading it!!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 7 2007, 12:56 PM

Well they'll still be text lessons initially, but I do plan to start on some vide lessons eventually, seems like they would be popular.

Posted by: Ryan Jul 9 2007, 04:02 AM

Yeah, very popluar . I suggest maybe on the video lessons. Hit the bigger theory lessons. That people have more harder of a time understanding!! Just a suggestion!!

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 14 2007, 07:40 AM

Omg andrew I couldnt be happier I understand theory , Well the basics at least ! The formula of the scale has me stuck at one point. So the formula is

and well that applies to making up the notes of a scale. And at first I was thinking " Well that cant be, there is 12 notes in a scale", but is that because some notes in the scale are the same ?


Omg this is just great I cant thank you enough


If only my sister wasnt crying after the tragic break-up with her boyfriend .....

Girls


- John

Posted by: Owen Jul 14 2007, 12:24 PM

Which roughly translates as:
"Screw sympathy I've got theory"

Good lesson Andrew!

Posted by: Kaneda Jul 14 2007, 01:20 PM

Not quite sure if you mean you do understand it now... If not, here's a thorough explanation...

I'm also not sure where you got "there is 12 notes in a scale" from. Well, there are - in one single type of scale (pretty much) - the chromatic, which includes every single note on the fretboard. As a formula, that would be written:

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 (1)

One semitone step between each note. (I put the last number in parantheses, because it just tells the interval back to the starting note/root note/tonic of the scale - more on that a bit further down).

In other words, you have 12 different notes to pick from, but you'll mostly pick out a set (a scale), which can be any number of notes. The pentatonic scales have 5 (which gives them their name), most of the other scales used in 98% of western music, from classical to metal (major, minor and their modes) have 7. The (variety of the) blues scale (that Andrew goes through here) has 6.

The notes of the scale can be repeated (theoretically) infinitely up and down through different pitches (they repeat at the interval of an octave, which is... 12 semitones).

I.e., you don't just have one E - a normal human being can hear 9-10 different notes that are all called E. Two of them are heard when you pick the 1st and 6th open strings in standard tuning on the guitar

Therefore, the notes in a scale are also called "pitch classes" (i.e., "E" is not one pitch of sound, it's a class of pitches that are all called "E"). While they're different pitches, they have the same function, and sound to our ears roughly the same (except brighter into the treble or deeper into the bass).

So, your formula - 3 2 2 3 (2) - describes 5 pitch classes. The tonic/root note of the scale + 4 notes, for which the formula describes the intervals - the last number describes the interval to get "back" to the next tonic/root note, where the formula starts over.

But the formula describes a lot more actual notes than that - in different octaves. Which is why you can build up patterns of boxes with many more notes than just the 5.

If you start from E for a minor pentatonic scale, for example, and give each octave a number:

E0 (that's about as deep as a human being can hear - approximately 20.6 Hz)
G0
A0
B0
D1

E1 (this is the note of the deepest string on an electric bass or double bass - approximately 41.2 Hz)
G1
A1
B1
D2

E2 (this is the note of the 6th guitar string played open - approximately 82.4 Hz)
G2
A2
B2
D3

E3 (this is the note of the 4th (D) guitar string played at the 2nd fret - approximately 164.8 Hz)
G3
A3
B3
D4

E4 (this is the note of the 1st guitar string played open - approximately 329.6 Hz)
G4
A4
B4
D5

E5 (this is the note of the 1st guitar string played at the 12th fret - approximately 698.4 Hz)
G5
A5
B5
D6

E6 (this is the highest note you can play - not counting harmonics - on a 24 fret guitar - approx. 1396.9 Hz)
G6
A6
B6
D7

E7 (approx. 2793.8 Hz)
G7
A7
B7
D7

etc.

Note how the frequency of the sound of each note doubles for each octave (20.6 x 2 = 41.2 etc.) - that's what makes them sound "equal" to us

In other words, while the pentatonic scale has 5 "notes" (pitch classes, really), a 24 fret standard tuned guitar can play 21 notes belonging to that scale - from E2 to E6. And many of those notes can be played in different ways - for example, A2 can be played on the 6th string 5th fret, or on the 5th open string - they're the same note, same pitch (that's how we tune the guitar after all ).



Sisters are a mess - even when you're 29 and they're 34

Posted by: Hemlok Jul 14 2007, 01:35 PM

Very good explanation Kaneda. I think you should join forces with the Andrewmeister and then we can pump out these theory lessons even faster

Or possibly do you plan on doing a guitar lesson? I'm sure you have some great things to offer us! That we can soak up and learn.

- Hemlok

Posted by: Kaneda Jul 14 2007, 02:03 PM

Guitar lesson? As in practical? Maybe in 2 years - or 5 All stuff I write here is based on 20 years of playing classical piano - on guitar, I'm barely past the first pentatonic box - if it weren't for the fact that I don't use boxes Only started out on guitar when I joined here less than three months ago. Because at some point, our band will want a second guitarist, and so that I can make myself more useful than playing piano when we need it - and singing.

Working with Andrew and Kris on some visual/interactive aids for learning theory, though - but that will be a while, since it has to be stuffed in between a rather demanding day job, gigs, lady friend and the plethora of other interests that I seem to pick up every week

Posted by: mattacuk Jul 14 2007, 04:53 PM

God i Love the Key of G minor, it makes me feel like a rock legend

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 14 2007, 06:28 PM

I see what your saying. There are lots of different notes all over the fretboard that would correspond with what your playing in the scale. But just because it sounds the same to are ears, doesnt mean its the same notes that we played in are orignal scale , is that right ?

And also what I was asking about the formula of a scale is that lets take the G Minor Pentatonic

Does the formula apply to finding all the notes of the scale. Ex. 3rd fret ,6th fret etc. etc. Or is it just a bases of tones used in the scale ? Thats kind of what Im trying to understand. And great post that helped SOOO MUCH. Ive learned more theory in 2 days then I ever have before!.


- John

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 14 2007, 06:42 PM

Don't confuse patterns on the guitar with notes in the scale - they are very different.

The scale gives you a list of possible notes, and bear in mind as Kaneda says you can use those notes in any octave the guitar can play. The next step is to move those notes to a physical realization by mapping them onto the guitar so you can play them, this is where patterns come in, and boxes (although ultimately its better to think in terms of all the possible notes on the entire fretboard so you dont 'box' yourself in.

So, the scale is a list of notes, then you can play those notes in any octave anywhere on the guitar and they will be in the scale.

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 14 2007, 09:48 PM

Ok so Scale= Guideline to play within through improv. ?



- John

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 14 2007, 10:40 PM

Yes, you can look at it that way though that is not all it is used for. Think of a scale as the artists palette of colours for a painting. What you make of it is up to you, but you choose the colors in the palette (or the scale) ahead of time.

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 14 2007, 11:00 PM

ok thank you, I just love theory so much right now. Should I but practicing all these minor scales and what not or some of the lessons here at Gmc ?



- John

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 14 2007, 11:14 PM

Both!

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Jul 14 2007, 11:38 PM

^ My Brain


What lessons would you recomend here Andrew that would correspond well with what im doing theory wise ?



- John

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jul 15 2007, 12:09 AM

To go with the pentatonic and blues scales, I can suggest no finer lessons than Gabriels Blues series

Posted by: rokchik Sep 5 2007, 11:31 PM

Hey Andrew,

This may have been explained already but I can't seem to wrap my head around this concept at all. Root notes and the scale boxes...I know it's been explained to death...sorry . I kind of did things bass ackwards and had learned the Am pentatonic scale and boxes without really knowing the theory behind it or the actual notes I was playing....I know bad me, slap! Anyways now that I've recognized the error of my ways and have been trying to backtrack I sorta have myself all confused Not sure if i'm really understanding the concept behind how the boxes are derived....or if what I think is going on is actually right. I'll try my best to explain.

Ok I know the formula is 32232 and regarless of what my root note is this will always be the formula for the minor Pentatonic scale but I'll use the G minor scale as my example.

G,Bb, C, D, F, G are the notes in this scale. So when going through the scale boxes, even though I don't always start or finish on G (root note) when moving through them, as long as I am using those notes, following the formula, I'm still in the G minor scale is that correct? (or whatever I choose as the root note for the scale I want to play)

And with regards to the boxes and working out the patterns,(again using G minor Pentatonic) is it fair for me to say that when you move to say the second scale box starting at Bb will the formula then become 22323? By this I mean the next note is still going to be C and then D so on and so forth so your still following the same formula just your starting point moved up one and that this will be true as you move throught the boxes and start on a different note from that scale? not sure if I explained that well or not.....hopefully you'll get what I'm trying to say

thanks

rok

Posted by: steve25 Sep 6 2007, 12:26 AM

The root note defines which key you're in. So where you've given an example of G minor pentatonic you're root note when starting the scale should be a G note. So for example if you were starting the scale on the E string you would start on the 3rd fret, because that's a G note. When you change keys it's a good idea to make sure that whatever you changing to that you hit that root note at first. There are 5 different boxes and all of them will have root notes. Find out where they are and concentrate on learning them so that you can start and land on the root notes. Andrew correct me if i am wrong here

Posted by: rokchik Sep 6 2007, 12:57 AM

Thanks for the reply steve25.

I think I understand the root note business in that if your doing the G minor pentatonic scale for example you start with G then work through the formula 32232 to get the rest of the scale.

My big problem is understanding the boxes/patterns and how they are derived. I know the shapes but I'm trying to understand them. Like the second box shape for the G minor pentatonic scale startes on Bb...unless I have that mistaken too So your still going to follow the scale of G minor in that your next note will be C then D and so on. So what I guess I'm trying to get at....and I know my explaining isn't very good... is that do you adjust the formula within the scale your playing ie: G minor pentatonic, to the note the next box shape starts with? Again I hope that makes sense.....this is why I have myself so confused

Or are you saying just learn where G is in the next box and work from there?....this seems easier. I think I'm turning a simple issue into a not so simple one

By the way Andrew sorry I probably should have just posted this as a question on the board instead of the lesson.

Posted by: steve25 Sep 6 2007, 01:25 AM

They all start on G in the G minor pentaonic scale. So for example lets take 1 box:

E--------------------------------3--6--3--------------------------------
B--------------------------3--6----------6--3---------------------------
G--------------------3--5----------------------5--3---------------------
D--------------3--5----------------------------------5--3---------------
A--------3--5-----------------------------------------------5--3--------
E--3--6------------------------------------------------------------6--3-

Here we start on the E string 3rd fret, that's the G note. Another root note would be on the 5th fret D string, you could also start there as that would still be in the key of G. However another box we have:

E----------------------6--8--6----------------------------------
B---------------6--8------------8--6---------------------------
G--------5--7-------------------------7--5---------------------
D--5--8-------------------------------------8--5---------------
A---------------------------------------------------8--5--------
E----------------------------------------------------------8--6-


Here we start on the 5th fret D for the next box. This is because that is where the root is. There's also a root note on the 8th fret B string. Hope this helps

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 6 2007, 01:43 AM

Steve explained it well ...

What you are talking about with the formulae is essentially correct but may run you into difficulties later both when looking at modes, and also when looking at major scale boxes.

The best way of looking at it is that the formula is always the same. But, different boxes start at different places in the formula. The root note of a box will always be the first note of the formula, no matter where you play it. This is essentially what you were saying but with a slightly different emphasis.

In general, boxes are derived by picking a string (bottom E is good) and moving up one note in the scale for each box. This works fine for pentatonic, and you get 5 boxes. When you look at major and minor however, it gets a little wierd. You probably kow there are 5 boxes for major and minor - but this is a simplification, therer are really 7. Since we step through the scale when making boxes, though, a couple of boxes will be only 1 fret apart which is kind of overkill, so those 2 bopxes are dropped leaving 5 boxes that differe by 2 or 3 frets. Now, given that boxes are left out you can see why your approach might have been confusing when you went into major and minor. In that case, as always, you would figure out where in the box the root note was and always use your formula from that point.

The way you discussed using the formula by the way looks very similar to how modes are derived. I know you didn;t mean it that way, which is why I think this might confuse things later on, so very firmly, always think of the formula as starting on the roiot note, then figure out which position within the formula your pattern starts. If you do this with pentatonic you will get the same result, but for the right reason this time .

Posted by: rokchik Sep 6 2007, 08:41 AM

Thanks Steve and Andrew very much!

I had myself all messed up with this and couldn't find my way back I was giving myself a headache. I completely understand now....I sorta had it but just in a very round about way. Thanks again for all your help you guys.

Posted by: bart m Sep 17 2007, 05:07 AM

does it matter what fingerings one uses for the minor pentatonic boxes...for instance, box 3 of the minor pent scale...what fingering should i use...

Posted by: JVM Sep 17 2007, 05:12 AM

In general I'd say obviously start with the index, then if it's one fret away either slide the index or use the middle, if it's two use the ring, and if it's 3 use the pinky. 3nps scales are cool.

Posted by: bart m Sep 17 2007, 05:25 AM

well, for box 3 of the minor pentatonic, i've been starting with the middle finger(finger #2)...that way, I don't have to slide one way or the other to reach a note...but I'm just not sure if this is the best way to do for an overall approach, the main problem being is that i'm not getting my hand use to stretching beyond 4 strings....I have small hands so i've always played this box this way, i'm just not sure if it's the best way though.
bart

Posted by: JVM Sep 17 2007, 05:27 AM

I'm not the expert but I've always done boxes starting with the index - it might feel awkward sometimes but you get used to it.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 17 2007, 04:16 PM

Whateer works - I have tried both ways in the past and settled on sliding, and in fact sliding is more important for 3 notes per string scale which you might want to use later on, however, if it works and you are comfortble with it, stick with it!

Posted by: Spyle Oct 9 2007, 11:30 AM

So when practicing scales I should always start on a root note? I've always just started on the E string regardless of which box I'm in.

I assume it doesn't matter which note I switch boxes on? In one of Kristofer's pentatonic lessons he talks about being able to change boxes on every string.

Posted by: muris Oct 9 2007, 07:31 PM

Best way is to practice boxes while switching them on different spots or strings.
Starting from E string is fine but try from another strings as well,
just to avoid common sounding of each box.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 9 2007, 07:36 PM

Regarding root notes, there is an explanation of this in my introduction to scales lesson http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=3967.

Posted by: OneWingdAngel Oct 11 2007, 09:47 PM

just so its in a more suitable place i will repeat my question here sry for the spaming andrew.
this seems to have a little to do with the minor pentatonic scale so here goes


ok i have played tabs for 2 years and was starved for the theory you are dishing out i am enjoying it all and i thank you. but for the past 2 nights at work i have racked my brain on this.

does the key of a piece equal the root of the main scale used in the piece ?

my brain now hurts i was ready to start my minor pentatonic scale practice when i noticed that if i use say a scale of B major (B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#,
2212221 the root is B. the key would have 5 sharps in it using the circle of fifths i can see A# is 7th or the last sharp 1 dagree up is B. KEY OF B EQUALS the B scale meaning that the scale of B major is the heart of our piece
here is the confusion
say i now use the same B scale only in minor pentatonic. (B,D,E,F#,A, 32232
now this key according to what i have learned should only have 1 sharp F# 1 dagree up is G !!!!!
WHAT key of G? shouldn't it still be KEY OF B I used a B scale?
how do i know that im supposed to use a B minor pentatonic scale for the most part if the key is G?
back to my question shouldnt the key equal my root note B?
please put my mind at ease thanks
WING.

Posted by: PlayAllDay Oct 12 2007, 09:46 AM

OK Wing - I'll have a go and see if I can help.
A major scale is quite a lot different from a minor pentatonic.
The last note in a generic major scale is one HALF step away from the tonic (or Root note) therefore the A# does lead you to B.
The last note in a generic pentatonic minor scale is one WHOLE step away from the tonic (or Root note) therefore the last note in Bm pent is A which leads you on to B.
It's only in Major scales that the last # note in the order of #'s is always the last note of the scale. The same is not true for minor pentatonics so I think that's where you method of determining root note is letting you down.

Now a Key is an interesting construct of chords and the scales that define or imply those chord progressions are used within the Key. Hmmm. I've read so many definitions of KEY in my life and none really help till you have a grasp of chord and scale theory but I'll try...
A Key is a tonal centre that identifies the Tonic Triad (or Root Triad) - just 3 little notes! - if you like, it's a symbolic Sun around which all sorts of chords revolve (like planets) and all have harmonic functions within the Key. So you can use many scales within the one Key.
Isn't theory fun!
I hope I've helped a little but I've probably caused more questions - which is really a good thing so feel free to keep going with this discussion - lots of people have the same questions when it comes to these things.

Oh I've just realised I'm in Andrew's Theory Lessons thread - sorry if I've trod on your toes Andrew Whoops!

Posted by: OneWingdAngel Oct 12 2007, 09:02 PM

thanks that almost helps maybe i jumped the gun. the problem is that i believe from what i have learned that yes u can use different scales in a piece but the key tells us were we return to. for example a key of B tells me that the piece uses a B major scale as its main scale (and u can use a few licks from other scales as fill). so if the key is B i am thinkin u can use as a main body the B major scale,the B minor scale, the B minor pentatonic scale and so on. this question is directed to the root equals the key as u see there B B B B key of B all works. i am thinking this cuz using the circle of fifths rule Andrew taught me and all the major scales i have tried it does work root equals key (circle of fiths using the last sharp in key go up 1 dagree and u have the key which is ALSO the ROOT of the scale used as main body) so scale of C major the last sharp would be D# 1 dagree up is C all works out) . the main scale used is the C major scale and that Equals the key C.
i tried to use the same rule circle of fifths to find the key when using a minor pentatonic scale. so here i went and laid down a B minor pentatonic scale assuming that the rule would yeild a Key of B to my horror i found 1 sharp in that scale F# the rule 1 dagree up key of G. there is my confusion key of G for a B minor pentatonic scale that doesnt equal my root at all. so if i were to use the key to tell me what scale is the main body i would now think . G major scale, G minor Scale, G minor pentatonic scale and so on and i have no clue why its not key of B the rule doesnt work. i started thinking maybe the key is like a door and only certain scales unlock that door. yes u can use many scales for a lil bit but you must return to the main body or main scale. i figured that the key would tell me if key of B then the main body is all B scaling. so am i wrong some were? does the key give me all notes possible and really u could list apropreite scales under like key of G:main body, G major,B minor pentatonic and what ever other scale use those notes . OR am i so far off u all are waiting for me to go to sleep so u can put a pillow over my face cuz i would be better off? hahaha i hope this clears up my question

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 12 2007, 09:58 PM

I tried to answer this on my board ...

Posted by: Mrblomme Oct 22 2007, 02:41 AM

Hi Andrew, very nice lesson but I have a question.
Maybe you've answered this question allready but I didn't find the answer.

So you have the patterns, the first starts with the root note so I know where to play them if I play them in A G F ... etc etc

But if we go to the other 4 patterns I see that we dont start with the root note.

Now Is my question, how do I know in which key the patterns are? If I want to play the same patterns from page 1 in another key lets say A in stead of G. Where do I need to play them then?

Grtz

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 22 2007, 02:44 AM

Each pattern has the root notes marked - all you have to do is move each pattern until the root note corresponds to the key you want. The root notes will be in different places in different paterns.

Posted by: Mrblomme Oct 22 2007, 02:47 AM

Oh so if the root note is the second note you play on the A string then you only need to move your hand till the second note on A string is lets say a B to play the B pattern ?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 22 2007, 04:29 AM

Exactly!

Posted by: Mrblomme Oct 22 2007, 06:26 AM

Ok tyvm matey.

Keep up your good work.

Posted by: Lester Oct 26 2007, 06:47 PM

finally i understand what i am actually doing
Great Work Andrew!!!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 26 2007, 08:01 PM

Excellent

Posted by: Pierre Dec 8 2007, 03:51 PM

Why do Major and Minor scales have modes and pentatonics do not?

Posted by: shammy Dec 16 2007, 06:40 AM

Finally went ahead and learned all the blue notes, something I should of done 10 years ago. I really sware by the theory Andrew, wish I was this strict with myself when i was a tad younger. Lovin the theory lessons!!! I was one of those guys that learned a ton of things half way through and now I am paying for it, it's like having to learn to replay, cause my fingers are so used to my old tired licks and not all of these great notes. For new players I would take Andrew's advice when it comes to learning theory and scales etc... it will pay off. My playing has come so far in the month or 2 I have been here. Peace

Posted by: kjutte Dec 16 2007, 07:12 PM

That formulae starts off with the Ionian mode, ergo Major.
What you're talking about is minor pentatonic, which is taken from the Aeolian (minor) pattern. you will see its similiarities if you look up a pattern on allguitarchords.com

also, Minor B pentatonics pattern is only the start of the 5 different patterns covering the octave. it only defines where, and how to start.

hope I understood the question, and hope that I made sense



If you compare the 5 pentatonic "modes", you'll see that they are taken from the major scale.

difference is that a major/minor has 7 notes per octave and the penta (penta means 5) has 5 notes per octave in each scale.

SO, to make it short, the pentatonic scales are really the major scale, just with 2 less characterizing notes per octave.

hope that helped

Posted by: Khaos Keith Dec 17 2007, 06:13 PM

i FINALLY understand how scale formulas work from this thread!!! oh man its so simple now haha. once you know the formula of any type of scale, you then know how to find the scale you want to use to any key note. just gotta brush up on my math skills now hahah

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jan 13 2008, 11:19 AM

I have a little silly quistion:

Is E minor pentatonic the same as E petatonic minor?
Because some say the first and some say the second...

Posted by: DeepRoots Jan 13 2008, 11:22 AM

yeh they're the same

Posted by: Muris Jan 13 2008, 05:09 PM

Yeah,more than the same

Posted by: Shawn Feb 7 2008, 05:24 PM

Hello Andrew,

First I wanted to say that I've started reading through all your theory lessons, and I find them fantasic. Thank you for all the work you've put in to these.

On to my question, which basically falls into this lesson.

When using scales and/or improvising over a chord progression, say for example the 12 bar blues progression you gave of:

G - G - G - G - C - C - G - G - D - C - G - D

Do you match the Minor Pentatonic Blues scale to the specific chord at any given point (ie G minor Pent Blues for the first 4 measues, then switch to C Minor for the 5th and 6th measure, etc) or do you stay with G Minor for the entire progression through the I, IV, V chord progressions?

Looking at the strictly theory perspective, I know that the rules can be broken to create often interesting/unique sounding sequences, etc.

Posted by: [email protected] May 15 2008, 02:57 AM

Don't know how long ive been sitting here with my guitar in my hands playing the mPentatonics and mBlue Scales for.. but ive finally memorized them all I love how when you improvise they can fit like a jigsaw

Posted by: audiopaal May 15 2008, 07:12 AM

Now this is what I call great
Thanks Andrew

Posted by: Rain Jun 12 2008, 03:17 AM

Wow - this is really helpful! I finally get how the minor Pentatonic scale works. I knew the scale for so long yet had no idea what I was playing nor how it worked mathematically.

Posted by: Rain Jun 15 2008, 03:26 AM

So the point of knowing the scales is to get a list of possible notes, yes. Where I get confused and lost is when we start moving into other scales and modes and breaking out of scales and jumping from one scale to another and back, etc, etc. It doesn't seem like a solid way of knowing what the music is going to do. It seems more like a style of notation - am I way off here or..?

Also, do artists simply say "okay, for this part of the song, I want something dark and eerie, with an oriental twist" - and pick a scale / key to go along with it?

Finally, is it practical to analyze someones playing in terms of what scales a band used while making a song - or are the scales best used when moving forwards and making a song? (to clarify - used to create, not to analyze)



PS: How do you delete posts?

Posted by: Nazgul Jul 12 2008, 06:00 PM

Some short questions to Andrew: I'm practicing the Minor Pentatonic and Blues Scale since two months. Now I'm quite good at jamming around by connecting the boxes etc. But is it normal that it takes so long to be completely comfortable with a scale? For example, when I finished the Pentatonic and the Blues Scale, will it take an equal amount of time to learn for example the harmonic minor?

And is it necessary to learn the pentatonic in all keys, or let's say just in E, A and G?

Thanks, of course anyone can answer.

Edit: Ivan? Andrew?

Posted by: Nazgul Aug 24 2008, 01:08 PM

???

Posted by: kyldeee Aug 24 2008, 01:12 PM

I'm also learning the pentatonics now, and I'm getting rather comfortable with them I think it personal, how long you have to study them, and I would say in my case that as long as you have to

If you learn the pentatonic (minor or major) in one key, you can play it in any key...

Cheers

Posted by: kaznie_NL Aug 24 2008, 01:16 PM

True, knowing the boxes is enough to be able to play them in every key. It is a good practice to do some uncommon keys every once in a while, like in Bb. I have known this scale for almost half a year now, and it's still not totaly fluid. boxes 5,1 and 2 are very fluid with the mixing, 4 a bit and 3 not very fluid

Posted by: Nazgul Aug 24 2008, 02:31 PM

Thank you for answering.

Well, I don't know if I should now start to learn the Major Scale or trying to perfect my improvisation-skills on the minor pentatonic. I'm sure in a while I will need the Major and Minor Scale, but I just don't know if I'm good enough at the pentatonic.And maybe it's only in my case but for me it's not THAT easy to just move the shapes along the neck. For example I learned the G minor pentatonic quite well and I kept in mind that most of the notes of the first box lie on a "point" (3rd and 5th fret), but if I attempted to learn the g sharp pentatonic the "right" notes wouldn't be there anymore.

Posted by: kyldeee Aug 24 2008, 02:45 PM

Well, just keep on learning those patterns, and try moving those patterns all around the fretboard, not just staying on one key, and also connecting them... And as for the major pentatonic, it's pretty much the same as the minor, so no difficulties there

Posted by: Nazgul Aug 24 2008, 04:03 PM

Thank you very much, first question answered.

And the second would be, are there any rules or suggestions of how good one should be in improvisation and scale knowledge before learning the next new scale? I'm really struggling with that problem at the moment, because I would love to start learning the Major Scale for writing Punk-Songs but I don't think I'm good enough at the Minor Pentatonic now.

Posted by: kyldeee Aug 24 2008, 04:46 PM

I don't think there are such rules concerning scale learning, so I say by all means look into the Major scale, cause the minor and major pentatonic scales gives you a strong basics on learning the Major and minor scales

Cheers

Posted by: Nazgul Aug 24 2008, 04:51 PM

?

Posted by: kyldeee Aug 24 2008, 04:51 PM

haha, I'm tired

Posted by: Nazgul Aug 24 2008, 08:18 PM

Haha, because of me? *Spam Extreme*

Thanks for answering I'll have a look at the Major Scale now.

Posted by: Vaialation1232 Jan 4 2009, 09:32 AM

I'm loving your lessons, but i just had one question...in this lesson you call the 6th fret on the E string Bb, is there any reason for this instead of A#? i know its probably a technicality but i was just wondering

Thanks again!

Posted by: Tolek Jan 4 2009, 11:16 AM

It is a theorical matter. If you take the G minor Pentatonic scale, you have the following pattern: root / minor 3rd/ perfect 4th / perfect 5th / minor 7th. G to Bb is a minor 3rd and G to A# is an augmented 2nd. That´s why we take Bb.

Posted by: Mrblomme Jan 28 2009, 12:16 PM

I have a question, in the 5th box of Aminor Pentatonic I'm starting at the 15th fret Estring (G).
Because it's the 5th box I'm playing it that far but cant I play it an octave higher? Or doesn't that belong anymore to the Aminor Pentatonic Scale?

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jan 30 2009, 02:57 PM

the boxes can be repeated, meaning after the fifth box, you get the first one again. So you can go on even further, until your fretboard runs out of frets

Posted by: Mrblomme Feb 2 2009, 12:21 PM

Aight thanks a bunch!