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Posted by: Phil66 Jan 22 2020, 07:39 PM

Hello folks,

Back in the day I could tell a country track instantly, I don't mean country and western, just country, it had a certain twang, something I couldn't put my finger on but I knew it was country. I was listening to a "country hour" on the radio the other day, I seriously wouldn't have known it was country of the presenter hadn't said "and that was blah blah riding high in the country charts at the moment". It must sounded like pop music to me, it's it me or is country getting diluted? I'm not a huge country fan, I like Little Big Church and John Prine and a few others but this new stuff is so feeble IMHO.

What you reckon?

Posted by: Mertay Jan 22 2020, 10:31 PM

When this video started I was expecting a pop song...or porn lol!

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 22 2020, 10:52 PM

Country has changed a LOT in recent years. It has a lot more breadth than it used to. Some of it sounds pop, almost hip hop, some sounds like classic rock, some sounds like classic pop. Hootie and the Blowfish recreated themselves as a country band for example. One thing about country music is that it still makes use of guitar. Modern pop, may have no actual instruments of any kind. Lady Gagas producer used to create entire tracks using nothing but LOGIC X, his mouse and her voice.

Posted by: AK Rich Jan 23 2020, 12:27 AM

I think quite a bit of country music these days can be considered as the new rock and roll. There is quite a bit of blues based songs and some of it with some pretty ripping guitar solos.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 23 2020, 05:49 AM

But what actually defines it as "country music". In my mind, one shouldn't need to be told by a radio presenter that a certain track is country, one should know straight away, or do they just call it country if a country artist creates a disco song?

A local presenter played a new "country" song to fellow presenter Pete Waterman, now Pete knows a thing or two about music, after hearing it, Pete said, "That ain't country, it's a pop song but a country artist" he didn't go into detail but he ended up saying that it could be played to any audience and nobody would recognise it as a country track.

So, bottom line, how does the industry, these days, define country music and if there are any country fans here, are there any "country" tracks that they've heard recently that they would not class as country?

Posted by: Mertay Jan 23 2020, 09:28 AM

When improvising and trying to catch a feel accompanying a backing track, the "beat" usually gives me the most of the basic flow. So elements like metronome, drum style and how other instruments accompany may be the most important key (for me) to classify what the genre is. But sure there are likely other elements.

Country singers has a certain vocal style/coloration to them, I guess a throat thing which makes them identifiable even sometimes they try to hide it. As someone who hasn't listened many county songs thats at least how I identify.

Would be nice though if you catch that song again and share its name or a video. Would be much easier to get into specifics.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 23 2020, 09:52 AM

Yeah I wish I could remember it. I bet if you listen to any current "top 20 country" list, there would be some you wouldn't identify as having that country sound. There was always something, like the slide guitar, the slight yodel in the voice, that certain something that made you just know it was country.

I'll try to find something when I get chance.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 23 2020, 10:01 PM

In terms of saying what sort of music a given track is, the industry uses a very simple metric. Would people who usually buy a given sort of music buy this sort as well. Is it close enough that we can call it a given "genre" without landing in the fudge over it.

E.G. Can we call this given track, "Country", even though it really doesn't sound very country? well, if the record label thinks it will appeal to a "Country" audience, or people that have bought country records previously, then yeah, they might call it that. Even though it barely qualifies. Also, a given track may 'cross over" and land in other charts as well. For example, a song can chart in the Country chart and also chart in Top 40 which is considered "Pop" though a lot of it is R&B and Hip Hop.


Here is a Justin Bieber tune (along with another artist, it's a collab) that is charting under "Country" though it sounds like a blend of Hip Hop/Pop/R&B with a bit of "Country" flavor.
https://www.billboard.com/charts/country-songs



.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 28 2020, 08:59 PM

Okay, here's one that just doesn't sound country to me. Educate me please.

https://youtu.be/gvPMVKUI9go

Posted by: AK Rich Jan 28 2020, 09:28 PM

Over the years, what is considered country music has expanded quite a bit but has always also encompassed popular music as well. You find many of the same songs on both charts. One thing about country music is that while what is considered country music has expanded, there really hasn't been any sub genre's added like there has like for example metal which has multiple sub genre's. One song (Old Town Road) that topped the country charts recently for quite a while and caused quite a stir was written by rap artist Lil Nas X. All it really takes for something to be considered country and end up on country charts is that people that listen to country music stations and country music like it or not and if it is popular among those listeners.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 29 2020, 06:43 AM

Well said the big word now is "Crossover". Music that crosses over from one genre to another. Here is LIL NAS who just won a grammy for his crossover country/rap song with Billy ray cyrus. Yes, this song was played on country stations here in the states. Korean band BTS joins the live performance. So have korean boy band, country pop guy and rap guy all going for it and it's somehow still called "Country"

Todd

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 29 2020, 08:17 AM

So technically Cemetery Gates could be classed as country if enough country fans liked it? This is what I don't like about the music industry, any way they can spin something to get money. It's like when I was teenager, the indie charts had any type of music in but the label had to be independent, often running from someone's back room at home, ie, just a label, so you'd have reggae, punk, rock etc all in the same indie chart, then indie somehow became a style of music.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for evolution but sometimes the boundaries get pushed too far.

Posted by: PosterBoy Jan 29 2020, 11:12 AM

Country Music has always changed with the times more than many other genres. There is a good book called Are You Ready For The Country that tracks it from the beginnings of The Carter Family through Hank Williams, the Chet Atkins produced years in the 60s, touching on the country rock and outlaw country of the 70s, the New Traditionalists of the 80s, and the Garth Brooks style country and the rebelling Alternative Country of the 90s.

We now seem to be in a very pop or 80s rock with a twang era with some rapping thrown in, and a lot less pedal steel and chicken picking.

There is still good stuff around if you dig about and don't just listen to what is just put on show.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 29 2020, 03:14 PM

It's the kind of music I'd buy a "best of country" album but I wouldn't risk it now. Don't get me wrong, I do like some of the modern "country", I just don't identify it as country.

One of my favourite "country" tracks is this, which I guess is pushing the boundary but it does have a country vibe.

https://youtu.be/BpQTqF8Xs3E


CHeers

Posted by: PosterBoy Jan 29 2020, 03:59 PM

Try out
John Moreland (singer songwriter type)
Willy Clay band (these guys are Swedish, I'd never have guessed)
The Wild Feathers (a little more country rock)

If you want more traditional sounding country let me know

Posted by: AK Rich Jan 29 2020, 09:23 PM

Well yes, I suppose so. Let the fans decide. At least that is what many believe it should be like but some folks disagree. I guess you could call them purists. Getting back to the example of Lil Nas X and his hit "Old Town Road." As I said before, it created quite a stir in the country music world and with Billboard. The version with Billy Ray Cyrus is actually a remix and was a response to Billboards removal of the song from the country charts because they felt that the song did not have enough of the necessary elements to be considered "Country Music".
Billy Ray spoke out and said that he believed that the song did indeed have the elements that make it country and then went a step further and contacted Lil Nas X and offered to remix the song with him to make it more country so to speak (maybe just because it would now feature a known country artist) which they did and released it on a major label.
Consequently, that song set a record for the longest run in history on Billboards top 100 chart which was 19 weeks. Not the country charts, but still, not too shabby.
Anyway, it seems that sometimes there are elements required to fit a certain genre and sometimes it's more about popularity with the listeners. At any rate, whether or not the song stayed on the country charts, it has received quite a bit of airplay on country music radio. Maybe as much or more play there than on stations that play pop music.

Original mix


Remix with Billy Ray Cyrus


Story here
https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/billboard-defends-lil-nas-xs-old-town-road-country-removal.html

And more here
https://www.complex.com/music/2019/04/lil-nas-x-old-town-road-appears-country-radio-music-chart

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 29 2020, 11:32 PM

I didn't know it was pulled off chart and didn't know the cyrus version was a remix. Great move by billy ray to get on the charts again and then be featured in the Grammy performance as well. Gotta hand it to him for having the wit for seeing it. The original track does have a bit of a country vibe but not much. It charted well as the same folks that buy country music also like Rap which would have seemed odd not so long ago. Billboard seems to have had more of an issue than the average listener did.

I must admit I didn't see the korean boy band joining in until the vid. BTS has very very very little to do with country music. But as has been mentioned, anything country fans like can chart, at least for a while, in the country charts. The barriers between genres have gotten very blurred as the music industry tries to survive the switch to streaming. The biz itself is only a fraction of what it was during the crazy CD days when folks would pay almost $20 for a piece of plastic with music on it


Value Added Plastic! These days it's value added Data/stream. Most folks have a spotify account and that's about it for spending. Not everybody of course. But a lot.

Posted by: klasaine Jan 30 2020, 12:02 AM

The media audience for ANY market or genre always skews young. Kids, all kids, are into the "trap" beat thing. A lot of pop country hits in the last couple of years employ a bunch of electronics and hip hop grooves - even if it's under the main drum beat. It was only a matter of time before it made it front and center with Lil' Nas X. It demonstrates just how much African American culture permeates and dominates the socio/cultural and artistic landscape here in the States.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 30 2020, 07:11 AM

Well this is turning into a great discussion. It's seems that one can't really define country nowadays by saying what you will hear or recognise in a country track before it's even been heard.

I wonder if the same is holding out in jazz and blues charts.

Personally, and I'm willing to have my mind changed, genres should be defined by the sound of the music not by its audience. If country fans start listening to Discharge, it will never make Discharge a country band unless Discharge themselves start to sing with a slight yodel and use a bit of slide guitar

Thanks all, for making this an interesting thread

Phil

Posted by: AK Rich Jan 30 2020, 07:42 AM

Yeah, I would say that's true, at least up until some point. I think things get a little stuffier if you start talking about "Country and Western" or traditional country music may be the better description.
I wouldn't expect Lil' Nas X to be invited to the Grand Ole Opry anytime soon, but who knows, stranger things have happened, right?

Just out of curiosity, I wonder if you might consider this to be a country song. It has a banjo and lyrics that could arguably be considered in a country style or country blues maybe, and some slide guitar. What do ya say?

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 30 2020, 12:40 PM

That's my favourite kind of country music, it's that good you can listen with the sound off She pays homage to Shania Twain in that video, can't see Ms Twain ever doing anything like that, also Lady Godiva is given a nod.




I never really thought of it as country but I did think bluegrass or something like that. It also always remands me of One The Road Again by Canned Heat. Funny that.

Posted by: klasaine Jan 30 2020, 06:15 PM

Country funk prog ...





Country southern rock jazz fusion ...



When this all first came out it was in the "country" section of the record stores.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 30 2020, 09:21 PM

Crazy that that was in the country charts imho



Just listening to John Moreland "When My Fever Breaks", now the opening chord picking has that country sound, there must be some order of notes that sounds "country".

Of course there's always Lightweight Louie Danvers:
https://youtu.be/qdvXlxRAK1M

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 31 2020, 01:24 AM

There are certain licks that always bring a "country" vibe to music. E.g clean acoustic guitar doing chord then note chord, octave of that note, repeat. Just as in rock there certain bits that just scream "country". Jazz has always been fairly niche so even as broad as the genre is, there are many purists who are fans that keep it from going toooo far afield. Same is true in Black Metal oddly, which began as a genre against genre, and has become one of the most restrictive genres in music complete with face pain requirements. There are exceptions to every rule or we wouldn't have any rules, of course.

My folks were way in to country music. Mostly vocal stuff like the Judds and such. Country is pretty open to crossover influence as long as the folks buying tix/music/listening to country radio are happy with it, it will drift a given way. There are still "traditional" country artists, which seems odd that we have to qualify Country music with the label of "Traditional" since it represented a traditional folk form of music for soooo long. Things change THen again RAP is also a form of Folk Music, just Urban instead of rural. It does attract a rural audience as most rap/hip hop music is purhcased by white kids, not black kids simply due to there being so many more white kids in our country as a function of population.

Todd