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GMC Forum _ Theory (Muris) _ What Chord Is This

Posted by: DRBguitar09 Aug 18 2007, 12:13 AM

i found this chord at the end of one of the GMC lesson and wasnt sure what it was
C-B flat- E-A-D

Posted by: muris Aug 18 2007, 12:26 AM

QUOTE (DRBguitar09 @ Aug 18 2007, 01:13 AM)

i found this chord at the end of one of the GMC lesson and wasnt sure what it was
C-B flat- E-A-D

Is that notes order from lowest to highest?
If it is,then you have C 7/6/9 or C13 (5th is missing by the way)

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 18 2007, 12:27 AM

QUOTE (DRBguitar09 @ Aug 17 2007, 07:13 PM)

i found this chord at the end of one of the GMC lesson and wasnt sure what it was
C-B flat- E-A-D

Are you sure those were the notes? The A and Bb are very dissonant if they are that close together in that order which isn't usual in chords.

Without the Bb it could be C6 +9, without the A it would be C9 (although in both cases missing a G).

With the A higher than the others it could be a C13 as Muris says.

Posted by: DRBguitar09 Aug 18 2007, 12:30 AM

E||-----10--------------|
B||-----10--------------|
G||-----9---------------|
D||-----8---------------|
A||-----x---------------|
E||-----8---------------|

i think its c13 but not sure how that is constructed

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 18 2007, 12:35 AM

QUOTE (DRBguitar09 @ Aug 17 2007, 07:30 PM)

Yeah, C13

Posted by: DRBguitar09 Aug 18 2007, 12:39 AM

how is a c13 constructed?

Posted by: muris Aug 18 2007, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (DRBguitar09 @ Aug 18 2007, 01:30 AM)

it goes like this:
chords are basicly constructed by upgrade in thirds.
C root note
E 3rd
G 5th
Bb 7th
D 9th
F 11th
A 13th

It's called 13 cause we use highest step of upgrade.
We are missing 5th and 11th here,just because not being able to take them all with one hand on the fingerboard

Posted by: DRBguitar09 Aug 18 2007, 12:43 AM

so all we need is the first, third, and thirteenth to make a 13 chord?

Posted by: muris Aug 18 2007, 12:47 AM

QUOTE (DRBguitar09 @ Aug 18 2007, 01:43 AM)

so all we need is the first, third, and thirteenth to make a 13 chord?

Almost.
Sometimes you have root,5th,11th and 13th and it's called 13 still.
It's like all you need is root and 13th...but 2 notes aren't chord.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 18 2007, 12:47 AM

QUOTE (DRBguitar09 @ Aug 17 2007, 07:39 PM)

how is a c13 constructed?

In interval terms it is:

1,(3),5,b7,(9),(11),13

(Optional notes in brackets)

Its a fairly standard stacked type of chord starting with a major triad :

1 3 5
C E G
Adding a b7 to make it as 7th

1 3 5 b7
C E G Bb

Add a 9th (same as a 2nd) to get C9:

1 3 5 b7 9
C E G Bb D

Add an 11th (same as a 4th)to get C11

1 3 5 b7 9 11
C E G Bb D F

And finally the 13th (same as a 6th) to get the fll C13

1 3 5 b7 9 11 13
C E G Bb D F A

Or you could consider it a polychord made up of C7 (C E G Bb) and d minor (D F A).

EDIT : Muris beat me to it

Posted by: DRBguitar09 Aug 18 2007, 12:49 AM

ok thanks andrew makes sense now

Posted by: muris Aug 18 2007, 12:50 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Aug 18 2007, 01:47 AM)

Or you could consider it a polychord made up of C7 (C E G Bb) and d minor (D F A).

EDIT : Muris beat me to it

Yeah,Andrew is right.
It's like having 2 chords in one,with totally different notes...C major and D minor.

Posted by: DRBguitar09 Aug 18 2007, 11:29 AM

thats cool

Posted by: tonymiro Aug 18 2007, 08:01 PM

A little differently, if you include the 11th it's a dominant 11th/13th (1, 3,5, b7, 9, 11, 13); for dominant 13th chords the 11th is often omitted (1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 13). As polytonal triads C dominant 11/13 is Dm/C7(3rd and 5th omitted) whereas 13th is D (3rd omitted)/C7(3rd omitted). If you include the 3rd of C here you should raise the 11th btw and then its a dom13 sharp11th (or dom13b5) or polytonally a d/c that includes the 3rd in the d triad - which is a very lydian type sound.

---10------------------------- -------10-----------------------------
---10------------------------ ---------10----------------------------
---10------------------------- --------9-----------------------------
---8------------------------- ---------8----------------------------
---x------------------------- ---------x----------------------------
---8------------------------- ---------8----------------------------

C dom11/13 C13

------------------------------
----7--------------------------
----7--------------------------
----7--------------------------
----7-------------------------
----8--------------------------

C13b5

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: muris Aug 18 2007, 08:08 PM

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Aug 18 2007, 09:01 PM)

A little differently, if you include the 11th it's a dominant 11th/13th (1, 3,5, b7, 9, 11, 13); for dominant 13th chords the 11th is often omitted (1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 13). As polytonal triads C dominant 11/13 is Dm/C7(3rd and 5th omitted) whereas 13th is D (3rd omitted)/C7(3rd omitted). If you include the 3rd of C here you should raise the 11th btw and then its a dom13 sharp11th (or dom13b5) or polytonally a d/c that includes the 3rd in the d triad - which is a very lydian type sound.
---10------------------------- -------10-----------------------------
---10------------------------ ---------10----------------------------
---10------------------------- --------9-----------------------------
---8------------------------- ---------8----------------------------
---x------------------------- ---------x----------------------------
---8------------------------- ---------8----------------------------

C dom11/13 C13
------------------------------
----7--------------------------
----7--------------------------
----7--------------------------
----7-------------------------
----8--------------------------

C13b5

Cheers,
Tony

Very good noticing Tony!!

Yes,there are few versions of this 13 chord.
7th might be major or minor.
Minor 7 gives it dominant sound as you said,while major 7 attempts to hold it in some tonic role.
And #11 has really nice lydian sound indeed.

Which means,chord that includes maj7,9th,#11 and 13 can be found on 4th degree each major scale
(diatonic speaking).

Posted by: tonymiro Aug 18 2007, 08:38 PM

Spot on Muris - and gives a great deal of scope for some nice chord substitutions .

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Aug 18 2007, 08:56 PM

Well, looking at this, there's more to learn

Posted by: muris Aug 18 2007, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Aug 18 2007, 09:56 PM)

Well, looking at this, there's more to learn

Feel free to ask anytime!!

Posted by: Hammerfest Mar 13 2008, 09:28 AM

Thats getting complicated now:p I was curious about the Polychord though. If I have C maj and D min in ONE chord, what scale wold fit with that? Either of them? or only the notes that overlap?
Its maybe a stupid question but theory was always my greatest flaw, I dont seem to get my head around it.

Max

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Mar 13 2008, 01:05 PM

Thats a tough combination because with the exception of B, it has every note in the C major scale:

Cmaj -> C E G
Dmin -> D F A

to give -> C D E F G A

If you played them together on 2 guitars in the same register it would probably sound awful, but if you played the Dm an octave above it would give you a flavour of 13th chord.

But yes, they both belong in a C major scale.

Posted by: Muris Mar 13 2008, 01:17 PM

Yeah,both are in C major scale,
kind of 13 chord if you use them together,with Dm in octave higher.