Copy Kills Music Options

[Schumi Jr]

Well I am the first who thinks never to record an album again because of this. My 2 years of hard work is not made for torrents and other P2P things. Those songs didn't come from the clouds just like that. Someone had to sit and make all that. Not to mention money spent in the whole project. (I am even scared to talk about the exact number). If you think that copying is not killing music then I can't agree with that. I am sure many people are not happy about it. Firstly it killed the way of listening music. No more feelings about it. Marcus did a great comparison (this became like a fast food). How do you think we (artists/songwriters) can be motivated to continue if we're spending money for nothing. This should be like any other job. When you invest in something then it is logical that you wait for something to come back to you from sales, royalties, publishing etc... If everyone is downloading things for free, then this job becomes pointless. I really see no reason why I would do another album.

To play devil's advocate, what about revenue from touring/live shows, other merchandise sales (t-shirts, stickers, DVD's, etc), and equipment sponsorship (albeit tiny compared to show revenue, etc)??

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame the music itself has become so undervalued, but there are still many good reasons to release albums even if they are heavily pirated.

Here's a direct example: I can listen to a lot of stuff legally without "purchasing it" through my monthly Zune pass. So until recently Muse and Kamelot have only gotten my money through whatever pittance they receive through their distribution deals (I have no idea how much that is, but I'm guessing very little). However, this gave me exposure to them I wouldn't have had otherwise, and now Muse has made a lot more money off of me in the way of two t-shirts (wife is now a big fan), two concert tickets, and HAARP cd/dvd, and will be actively seeking future nearby shows. Same thing with Kamelot.

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[Koopid]

To play devil's advocate, what about revenue from touring/live shows, other merchandise sales (t-shirts, stickers, DVD's, etc), and equipment sponsorship (albeit tiny compared to show revenue, etc)??

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame the music itself has become so undervalued, but there are still many good reasons to release albums even if they are heavily pirated.

Here's a direct example: I can listen to a lot of stuff legally without "purchasing it" through my monthly Zune pass. So until recently Muse and Kamelot have only gotten my money through whatever pittance they receive through their distribution deals (I have no idea how much that is, but I'm guessing very little). However, this gave me exposure to them I wouldn't have had otherwise, and now Muse has made a lot more money off of me in the way of two t-shirts (wife is now a big fan), two concert tickets, and HAARP cd/dvd, and will be actively seeking future nearby shows. Same thing with Kamelot.

You have to make a name before selling merchendise. CD's or separate mp3's you can sell but merch takes a much bigger name than music.

I read yesterday that "Music should be free" and that was really stupid but to say that copy kills music is just not true. We have all copied music. It used to be tapes then CD's and mp3's. We recorded on taperecorders from radio and so on and we played it to our friends and then we bought the records. I buy records but I listen to them first illegaly, if I like 'em I buy 'em, if not I wont. I do buy more records now than before I could listen on youtube or download but that could also be because I make more money now than I did when I was younger. I am not justifying listening illegally to music, I am saying why I do it. I never buy anything without trying it first.

To be honest I think that it was the music industry that made the copying as big as it is today. When the CD first came it was cheaper to produce from day 1 than vinyls. Music industry still sold them for quite a lot more money than vinyls or tapes and CD's became very easy to copy and spread through computers and internet. If CD's were cheaper people would not have put so much time and effort into easy programs to copy and spread music. It would still happen but to a lot lesser extent than today. And today people have learned and made it so "accepted" so it is really no use stepping back and lower the prices now.

(Just for the comparasy in Sweden a couple of years ago the government raised the taxes on tobacco a LOT making the prices too high for normal people to buy hoping that they would stop smoking. People learned to import and buy illegal tobacco for much less and government earnings went down a lot but people still smoked nearly as much as before. The government backed and lowered the taxes but now people already learned to import.)

What I am mean is that hadnt the music industry gotten greedy people wouldnt had put as much effort into making copying so easy. People would still do it ofcourse (just like people used to import or buy illegal tobacco before the taxraise) but not to the same extent.

The sad thing is that it is the actual musicians that suffers and I am certain that it wasnt *them* that decided what prices CD's would sell for.

That said I almost completelly stopped downloading music since Spotify. I haven't gotten around to paying for premium yet but I will. For me it is perfect, I can listen to the records legally and know that the artists get some payment for their effort and it wont cost me extra the more i listen. The records I like I will buy. Unfortunatly some greedy artists (Metallica) and greedy record companies think that they will loose recordsales to Spotify and wont allow their records or songs on there. They don't understand that it is the downloaders that will use Spotify (or last.fm or similar) instead, the record buyers will still buy records.

Musicians should get payed for music, of course. But listeners should have a chance to know what they are buying.

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[Emir Hot]

To play devil's advocate, what about revenue from touring/live shows, other merchandise sales (t-shirts, stickers, DVD's, etc), and equipment sponsorship (albeit tiny compared to show revenue, etc)??

Sorry but I have to say that the last thing I was thinking about when I was making my record was that I'm gonna be selling t-shirts.

I really thought I would sell some CDs

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[Frederik]

I thing what needs to be done is a completly new approach to the music industry. Where people chooses to donate to the musicians they like. Because theres already so much music for free (youtube, etc) this way music manufactures and soulless producers will get cut out, and the musicians will be free to compose whatever they feel like


-Frederik

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[Pedja Simovic]

We live in digital world and age where there is virtually not set standards and laws yet.

If there were harsh laws and penalties, and police would prosecute people who download things for free, it would be a different story I imagine.
I am not just talking about people downloading music and albums, I am talking about movies, tv shows, software etc. All this costs money and effort was put into it.
Police has to do a better job, form online piracy units and start shutting down website, prosecuting people who spread piracy etc

Do you think regular person would download music for free if they hear every other day that somebody from their country city or area was fined 20 or more thousand dollars and was given jail time ? I don't think so !



So to sum things up, there is lack of law in place in terms of internet freedom. This is why we as artists, musicians, guitar players should take advantage of this !

Sell your album online on your website. Make everything available for download. Put your album on famous selling machines like Itunes that will do the work for you. Promote your album via social networking sites - myspace facebook tweeter, music websites and blogs. Offer donation button on your website to support the album - let users put as much money as they feel they can for your product.
Million other ideas like this come to my mind, I could type a book about it probably now

Instead of feeling sorry for way things are, take action and make things right.
You should also know (if you didn't before) that when you make an album, unless you have really great marketing and record deal behind you - don't expect to make money in fact you are most likely going to loose money !
Thats the reality of unrecognized artists. Also, think about style of music you are doing ? If you are not mainstream and marketable for record companies, there is no space for you to earn good money of it.


In conclusion, next time when you make album approach things wisely and wage your options. Don't put money into project you can't afford as it might put you in more depth . However, if you use advantage of internet marketing and find right audience by ways I described above, you will be surprised how much money you will make - people from all over the world would buy your album.


I am sorry to hear that you didn't make money on your album Emir. You are great guitarists and as you know in life things don't always work out as you expect them to do. You have believe in something 100% and put a lot of effort and passion. I am absolutely positive if you try out marketing your album yourself that you could sell in one year at least 1000 copies - thats less then 3 albums a day.

Hope things work out, and I definitely think you should keep doing albums man

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[Emir Hot]

I am sorry to hear that you didn't make money on your album Emir. You are great guitarists and as you know in life things don't always work out as you expect them to do. You have believe in something 100% and put a lot of effort and passion. I am absolutely positive if you try out marketing your album yourself that you could sell in one year at least 1000 copies - thats less then 3 albums a day.

Hope things work out, and I definitely think you should keep doing albums man

Pedja, I have everything you mentioned that an artist should have. I have great label, record deal, great marketing, 4 official releases (Japanese, Russian, Finnish and Serbian). I have distribution in 60 countries in normal stores plus iTunes, Amazon, CDbaby and all other major internet shops. Besides I have hundreds of great reviews and the most important I have two of the biggest names in metal on my record.

In the first 6 months I have managed to get 25% of the money invested. I don't think I will ever get it all back but that doesn't matter as I wanted to have this product anyway because of personal reasons. My label told me about statistic regarding the illegal downloads. Their analysis shows that if people didn't download it illegaly, I would have had 3 times money back in just first 6 months. Don't you think that's a big impact? There are some interesting oppinions in this thread like - we should hear something before we buy it. I agree with that but not to be able to get the whole thing for free and then decide if you want to buy it. I would be happy with 1 min song samples (which everyone does anyway) plus reviews. That is enough for me to understand if an album is worth buying. The way things are looking now, I don't think I am ready for another serious project. The only thing I would accept is if some popular established band calls me to play and I don't need to think of anything else.

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[Pedja Simovic]

Pedja, I have everything you mentioned that an artist should have. I have great label, record deal, great marketing, 4 official releases (Japanese, Russian, Finnish and Serbian). I have distribution in 60 countries in normal stores plus iTunes, Amazon, CDbaby and all other major internet shops. Besides I have hundreds of great reviews and the most important I have two of the biggest names in metal on my record.

In the first 6 months I have managed to get 25% of the money invested. I don't think I will ever get it all back but that doesn't matter as I wanted to have this product anyway because of personal reasons. My label told me about statistic regarding the illegal downloads. Their analysis shows that if people didn't download it illegaly, I would have had 3 times money back in just first 6 months. Don't you think that's a big impact? There are some interesting oppinions in this thread like - we should hear something before we buy it. I agree with that but not to be able to get the whole thing for free and then decide if you want to buy it. I would be happy with 1 min song samples (which everyone does anyway) plus reviews. That is enough for me to understand if an album is worth buying. The way things are looking now, I don't think I am ready for another serious project. The only thing I would accept is if some popular established band calls me to play and I don't need to think of anything else.

In that case man offer donation type downloads on all those sites you have your album. Its better to make 1$ straight from sales then to make no money at all. I think you would agree with me here

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[wrk]

We live in digital world and age where there is virtually not set standards and laws yet.

If there were harsh laws and penalties, and police would prosecute people who download things for free, it would be a different story I imagine.
I am not just talking about people downloading music and albums, I am talking about movies, tv shows, software etc. All this costs money and effort was put into it.
Police has to do a better job, form online piracy units and start shutting down website, prosecuting people who spread piracy etc

Do you think regular person would download music for free if they hear every other day that somebody from their country city or area was fined 20 or more thousand dollars and was given jail time ? I don't think so !

Don't know .. i find it difficult to put the customers that much into criminality and let them pay for what the music industry initially has mess up.

I agree with what has been said before that this is a transition time. New solutions have to be found. To put huge efforts and investments into a systems to prevent, track and judge piracy, only for to keep an old business plan alive can not be the solution.

Maybe you are right and the income from records will rise again, but i find the idea a bit funny that for a period of time, up to this system is settled and changed customer habits, the biggest supporter for an artist will be the ones who payed their fines and not the one who bought the record. A bit sarcastic of course ...

Business has to be adjusted to developments on the market and their customers ... and not the other way around through laws and penalties.

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[Pedja Simovic]

Don't know .. i find it difficult to put the customers that much into criminality and let them pay for what the music industry initially has mess up.

I agree with what has been said before that this is a transition time. New solutions have to be found. To put huge efforts and investments into a systems to prevent, track and judge piracy, only for to keep an old business plan alive can not be the solution.

Maybe you are right and the income from records will rise again, but i find the idea a bit funny that for a period of time, up to this system is settled and changed customer habits, the biggest supporter for an artist will be the ones who payed their fines and not the one who bought the record. A bit sarcastic of course ...

Business has to be adjusted to developments on the market and their customers ... and not the other way around through laws and penalties.

Check this out Andy

The industry is trying to adjust by putting everything on Itunes and sites like that, sharing profits with musicians and record companies as well as third party involved.

Now here is the biggest problem !

If you fine people for downloading and make a case out of it, people will start to slowly fade out download and rather by CD's in store or online legally.

Think about it - I can just type Greg Howe and find him online for free for example.
But, in my town I don't know anybody who listens to Greg Howe, so if there wasn't ability to download it from internet, I would go to store and buy a CD 100% !!!

I hope this clears things out a bit

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[Schumi Jr]

Sorry but I have to say that the last thing I was thinking about when I was making my record was that I'm gonna be selling t-shirts.

I really thought I would sell some CDs

Fair enough on the t-shirts - but what about the touring/live shows revenue?

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[Emir Hot]

Fair enough on the t-shirts - but what about the touring/live shows revenue?

On the last tour I earned $0

We could just cover all the expenses and had some great fun. Metal business is not what it used to be like 10 or more years ago. Very difficult.

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[Koopid]

I just want to make it clear

I defenitly do *not* think it is my "right" to listen before buying. It is illegal, period.

I will still not buy a record without listening first, unless it is a record from a band I want to support regardless of the music (friends and such).

Sure, give me the opportunity to listen to 1 min and read reviews. For me that is not enough, I'll just not buy the record. I will however pay for a service that lets me listen to songs before buying, like Spotify.

I *want* to pay for music, I *do* pay for music, I just don't want to pay for music I don't want

The only thing I will buy untested is movies and books since the whole idea is to not know what you are getting..

And I also think that for very big bands the downloads are eating a large percentage of the total sales, but for smaller bands I don't think it is as much. Smaller bands need the extra percent more though...

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[wrk]

Check this out Andy

The industry is trying to adjust by putting everything on Itunes and sites like that, sharing profits with musicians and record companies as well as third party involved.

Now here is the biggest problem !

If you fine people for downloading and make a case out of it, people will start to slowly fade out download and rather by CD's in store or online legally.

Think about it - I can just type Greg Howe and find him online for free for example.
But, in my town I don't know anybody who listens to Greg Howe, so if there wasn't ability to download it from internet, I would go to store and buy a CD 100% !!!

I hope this clears things out a bit

Pedja, my only point is that fines and laws can not be the solution. I doubt that people will stop to download music and start paying again by setting strong penalties. The music industry abused customers too much and too obvious and is now confronted with the problem to make them sensible again for what exactly they have to pay and that this price is reasonable.

iTunes and other online stores are a good ideas, but the price strategy is as unclear as before. Maybe you can explain me for example the price of 0.99 $ for an digital file? ... I'm not saying it's too cheap or too expensive, but on what this price is based? Logistic, packaging (etc.) costs are reduced by delivering the product in digital form, but the price is the same as if i buy a physical product imported from the other side of the world.

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[Pedja Simovic]

Pedja, my only point is that fines and laws can not be the solution. I doubt that people will stop to download music and start paying again by setting strong penalties. The music industry abused customers too much and too obvious and is now confronted with the problem to make them sensible again for what exactly they have to pay and that this price is reasonable.

iTunes and other online stores are a good ideas, but the price strategy is as unclear as before. Maybe you can explain me for example the price of 0.99 $ for an digital file? ... I'm not saying it's too cheap or too expensive, but on what this price is based? Logistic, packaging (etc.) costs are reduced by delivering the product in digital form, but the price is the same as if i buy a physical product imported from the other side of the world.

I am not fan of just fines either Andy, but combination of law at work and strong marketing can make things right.

0.99$ is typical American system of pricing. Its not 1$ its less then 1$ !
That sounds appealing and is highly likely to do good and sell. Anybody who has computer and internet should have 1$ somewhere. I think that was the idea they were going for

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[29a]

Well I am the first who thinks never to record an album again because of this. My 2 years of hard work is not made for torrents and other P2P things. Those songs didn't come from the clouds just like that. Someone had to sit and make all that. Not to mention money spent in the whole project. (I am even scared to talk about the exact number). If you think that copying is not killing music then I can't agree with that. I am sure many people are not happy about it.

Sure there are people who are not happy about the status quo. But it won't kill it. There was music long before there was copyright. Hell I'm sure there was music before there was money!

Firstly it killed the way of listening music. No more feelings about it. Marcus did a great comparison (this became like a fast food).

Can you show any evidence that this trend is caused by copying?

How do you think we (artists/songwriters) can be motivated to continue if we're spending money for nothing. This should be like any other job. When you invest in something then it is logical that you wait for something to come back to you from sales, royalties, publishing etc... If everyone is downloading things for free, then this job becomes pointless. I really see no reason why I would do another album.

I think there is some misunderstanding. Is the point of your job to charge people money or to make a living from creating music. If it is the first one is the case (which I seriously doubt) you should work as sales man and not as musician. Which would be very sad because you are a great muscian.

If it is the later is the case, then I don't see how "downloading things for free" makes your job pointless. Then your problem is not that people are "downloading things for free" but that you don't make any money from it.

Sorry but I have to say that the last thing I was thinking about when I was making my record was that I'm gonna be selling t-shirts.

I really thought I would sell some CDs

I think musicians should think about alternative ways to make money. But I'm sure it's not easy in every case.

If there were harsh laws and penalties, and police would prosecute people who download things for free, it would be a different story I imagine.
I am not just talking about people downloading music and albums, I am talking about movies, tv shows, software etc. All this costs money and effort was put into it.
Police has to do a better job, form online piracy units and start shutting down website, prosecuting people who spread piracy etc

Do you think regular person would download music for free if they hear every other day that somebody from their country city or area was fined 20 or more thousand dollars and was given jail time ? I don't think so !

To enforce this would kill privacy and require censorship. Wrong way.

Also how would you justify such high penalties or jail times? If I steal a CD from a music store I'd probably end up getting a relatively small fine. By stealing the cd I caused actually measurable direct damage to the music store. Now if I copy something I don't do any direct harm or measurable harm but I should go to jail for it? That's not the jurisdiction I'd like to live in.

In the first 6 months I have managed to get 25% of the money invested. I don't think I will ever get it all back but that doesn't matter as I wanted to have this product anyway because of personal reasons. My label told me about statistic regarding the illegal downloads. Their analysis shows that if people didn't download it illegaly, I would have had 3 times money back in just first 6 months. Don't you think that's a big impact?

How did they come up with this number?

There are some interesting oppinions in this thread like - we should hear something before we buy it. I agree with that but not to be able to get the whole thing for free and then decide if you want to buy it. I would be happy with 1 min song samples (which everyone does anyway) plus reviews. That is enough for me to understand if an album is worth buying.

Would you as a musician care about the fact that I got your music for free when you'd get a fair amount of money for producing your music?

I've got some more questions for you which really interest me. How much money do you make when I walk in the store and buy a copy of a cd? And do you think you would make more money with your music without the internet?

Now an idea how established bands could make money form their songs:
Set up a website where you write that you'll record a new album after receiving X$. Oh and everybody who donates more than 10$ will be able to download the album right after the release from the official website. Everbody who donats more than 30$ (or 50$) will receive a promotional package containing a CD and a tshirt or what ever.

Now I'm not sure if this would work (I guess if manowar, or metallica did it it would it would work). I guess it would not work for small Bands.

But then again, was it easier for unknown bands to make money 30 years ago? 20 years ago? I don't know. But it would interest me.

Jonas

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[Pedja Simovic]

To enforce this would kill privacy and require censorship. Wrong way.

Also how would you justify such high penalties or jail times? If I steal a CD from a music store I'd probably end up getting a relatively small fine. By stealing the cd I caused actually measurable direct damage to the music store. Now if I copy something I don't do any direct harm or measurable harm but I should go to jail for it? That's not the jurisdiction I'd like to live in.

Jonas if you steal in store or online its still a crime.

If you feel you will get less punishment from stealing live then doing it from internet then you are absolutely wrong.
Right now we have a situation where millions are downloading instead of buying and that trend is increasing. Are they being punished in any way ? No, of course not. Should there be something done about it to prevent it ?
Absolutely yes !
I don't want to go to far and say jail time but significant fine would do the work for starters.

Its funny that you mention privacy, I laughed a bit when I read it. Usually people who have something to hide in their computer always stick with privacy law. Its like those American movies where you are not guilty until proven otherwise

Final thing

- Steal from the store, security cameras catch you, might get beaten up by store owner, and police will find you no doubt
- Steal from online - absolutely no consequences - only theoretical possibility that somewhere in this world some cops will knock on your door for music you downloaded illegally.

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[Emir Hot]

I would like to have time to reply to all this but right now I am busy with the comments for my collab. I have to admit that I had pretty much similar oppinion as yours before I entered the music industry. Now when I see how things are not worth doing and are not that easy as they look (or used to be 15 and more years ago) I am really not interested in making music available for free just like that. Yes I am trying to make a living of music but it is still very hard. I haven't given up but I will try different ways. Maybe just a session work or teaching. I am not a sales man. My sales are sorted just the way it should be but people are just talking about some great music and nobody is buying it. The only way I could explain this is if you experience it yourself. Spend 2 years making music. Be lucky enough to get signed by a proper label and do 5 jobs at the same time to pay for the studio, musicians and all other expenses. I am really talking about some serious money. After that you obviously want to have something back from it. I didn't do this because I didn't have anything else to do in my life. I wanted this to be my job for which I am officialy qualified and which I enjoy doing but it showed that it is not worth.

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[29a]

Jonas if you steal in store or online its still a crime.

Copying is not stealing. By copying you don't take away anything. But the definition of stealing is legally taking away property from another person. And yes, I think that noncommercial copy right infringement is not as bad as theft. I'm not even sure if it is a crime by definition. IIRC it's a matter of private law rather than criminal law - at least in Switzerland.

If you feel you will get less punishment from stealing live then doing it from internet then you are absolutely wrong.
Right now we have a situation where millions are downloading instead of buying and that trend is increasing. Are they being punished in any way ? No, of course not. Should there be something done about it to prevent it ?
Absolutely yes !
I don't want to go to far and say jail time but significant fine would do the work for starters.

Like in the US where the Music Industry sues teenager for hundreds of thousands of dollars PER COPY OF A SONG? I think current copyright law is by far strict enough. The problem is that it's hard to impossible to enforce them. Tell me, how would you proof I gave a copy of a CD to a friend?

Its funny that you mention privacy, I laughed a bit when I read it. Usually people who have something to hide in their computer always stick with privacy law. Its like those American movies where you are not guilty until proven otherwise

Privacy is an important basis of a democracy. I'm now not going into the whole "If you've got nothing to hide then you don't need privacy" debate. But yes I've got tons of things on my computer I'd like to keep private. And no, not because they are illegal.

I am really not interested in making music available for free just like that.

So if I would pay you all the expenses it takes to produce an album (including your wage) but you'd have to release your album for free you'd deny that offer?

- Jonas

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[Pedja Simovic]

Jonas your very first answer made me laugh man.
I don't think that we can discuss nor debate this further.
You clearly don't think that its not much of a crime to copy music but it is to steal from the store.
In my mind this is completely wrong so I will just stop talking to you about this issue here as we have totally separate opinion of what crime and law is and should be regarding this whole matter.

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[Marek Rojewski]

Two things worth remembering:
1. copying i.e. downloading something is different than stealing a CD from the store, because virtually You gained something ( the files on Your computer ), but no one lost his files/cd's so the difference can be clearly seen.

2. so when someone downloads the music, the artist/industry loses only the profit, that MAYBE it would earn otherwise. This surely is true, but I for one know, that without the internet I wouldn't buy many many cd's that I have bought because of the possibility to listen to them before buying. For example Your cd Emir. It is very hard/almost impossible to buy Your cd in Poland. No shop in my town has the CD, same goes to the people I know. I have certain amount of cash to spend, and I am 100% sure, that I wouldn't order it without hearing it first. What is more, I really don't like 1 minute song samples. I won't know after hearing it, if I heard the best fragment, the average one or the worst. Some songs are great because of few seconds in it... One full song, some kind of a single maybe would be more helpful, although the song would have to be very good, to convince me to buy a full album. Especially as there are to many bands that have 1-2 good songs on an album, and the rest is there to "fill the space"..
Besides I treat music as something that I will "use" for a long period of time, like a car or clothing. I don't like the idea of buying a CD like a box of cookies, and thinking "hmm if they are tasty than great, if not maybe someone else from my family will eat it".
So in my case, the internet made me to buy more cd's than I would buy without it. And I am sure there are many people that act the same way.

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