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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Vibrato Bends Question

Posted by: liveOASISforever Mar 15 2014, 09:07 AM

Hi

I am practicing a lot on my bends at the moment and adding vibrato. My question is when applying vibrato to a bend do you let the bend go flat and bend back up to pitch or bend the not sharp and let it come down to pitch.I think bending the note sharp would require more strength in the fingers but I feel that I have more control doing it this way

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 15 2014, 11:45 AM

Hey mate smile.gif usually, when I think of visualizing this technique, I imagine that the string is in pitch on the note which you have reached with the bend and you have to vibrate around that point as if the string would be in its normal 'unbent state. You need to shift your focus on the new note, as that's where you are now. This is the basic approach, as there are a lot of possibilities, but first you need to become aware of this idea smile.gif If you could post a vid with you executing a few of these bends in slow motion, I could help further for certain wink.gif

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Mar 15 2014, 02:57 PM

Hi friend! Cosmin illustrated it perfectly. It's not exactly going flat and sharp because it just happens when the vibrato are very wide and nervous (you won't want to make every bend sound like that). But it's truth that you move around the note and go a big higher and a bit lower the note when you do vibrato. As it happens with vibrato without bending. And yes, you're right about having to do more strength when you want to add vibrato to a bend.

Also, check this video:



and of course this lesson:

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Bens-Vibrato-Odyssey-5/

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 15 2014, 04:54 PM

In my case:

1. Vibrato alone (NOT the classical vibrato!) - pitch up and release to right pitch (no matter which direction - up or donw You always make string go up with the pitch
2. While bending - bend, little release (down pitch), come back to right pitch.

That's how I'm doing it

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 16 2014, 10:38 AM

For me, the articulation techniques - vibrato or bending or slides, have been built up with a lot of actual ear training. In short words - I always aimed to mimic everything I heard smile.gif Be it a sax squeal or a violin phrase, anyway, you should always aim for non-guitar stuff when you want to mimic things. In that way, you will not be tempted to try and find tabs or look at the way that thing is actually played. You have to figure out how to play it and then get it to sound as close to the original thing as possible. With a lot of exercise, this will become a VERY valuable skill smile.gif

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 16 2014, 11:16 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 15 2014, 04:54 PM) *
1. Vibrato alone (NOT the classical vibrato!) - pitch up and release to right pitch (no matter which direction - up or down You always make string go up with the pitch

Yes and I think this is a 'problem' with the guitar - it is very hard to do standard vibrato without playing too sharp (and thereby hurting your listeners' ears). Like Darius says no matter if you bend your string up or down you are still going up in pitch (because string tension increases when you bend, up or down).

Of course there are some circumstances where that aggressive sharp vibrato works well. But for softer melodies for example - I would prefer to use the whammy bar for vibrato, or bend up to the notes you plan to let ring (then you can use the second method Darius described - which is much more ear-friendly):

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 15 2014, 04:54 PM) *
2. While bending - bend, little release (down pitch), come back to right pitch.


Posted by: liveOASISforever Mar 16 2014, 01:35 PM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 15 2014, 10:45 AM) *
Hey mate smile.gif usually, when I think of visualizing this technique, I imagine that the string is in pitch on the note which you have reached with the bend and you have to vibrate around that point as if the string would be in its normal 'unbent state. You need to shift your focus on the new note, as that's where you are now. This is the basic approach, as there are a lot of possibilities, but first you need to become aware of this idea smile.gif If you could post a vid with you executing a few of these bends in slow motion, I could help further for certain wink.gif


Cosmin will give it some more practice and get a video up for you tomorrow. I love listening to bends with vibrato and really into Zakk Wylde,s aggressive vibrato

I could listen to this one all day smile.gif


QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Mar 15 2014, 01:57 PM) *
Hi friend! Cosmin illustrated it perfectly. It's not exactly going flat and sharp because it just happens when the vibrato are very wide and nervous (you won't want to make every bend sound like that). But it's truth that you move around the note and go a big higher and a bit lower the note when you do vibrato. As it happens with vibrato without bending. And yes, you're right about having to do more strength when you want to add vibrato to a bend.

Also, check this video:



and of course this lesson:

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Bens-Vibrato-Odyssey-5/


Thanks Gabriel for posting the video. smile.gif

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 16 2014, 01:47 PM

Ok mate wink.gif Looking forward to see your vid and that makes two of us biggrin.gif I also like Zakk's vibrato and playing in general!

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 17 2014, 02:23 PM

Waiting for some vids of Your vibrato workshop. It's great that You can provide such a detailed analysis. It's a very first and very important step to master particular techniques

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Mar 17 2014, 02:43 PM

I know this video isn't about bending, but it has some very nice tips anyway:


Posted by: liveOASISforever Mar 17 2014, 09:14 PM

I have being watching a few different videos and looking at different peoples techniques. On one of Guthrie Govan's videos. He says to make the bend a little sharp before starting the vibrato this way it won't sound flat.

Then I was amazed to find out that B.B King doesn't use his thumb on the back of the neck when he does his vibrato.This seems very hard.

My bends are really poor. I am working on them but they never seem to be consistent in reaching the correct pitch.Then my vibrato sounds terrible in this video.I think that its mostly due to not having the finger strength to be able to control everything I will get better faster by showing you all where I am at with it and get your advice smile.gif

I will need to give my fingers a rest now because they are becoming very ache laugh.gif





QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Mar 17 2014, 01:43 PM) *
I know this video isn't about bending, but it has some very nice tips anyway:



Thanks for sharing mate.Its always good watching different peoples approach to things.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 18 2014, 09:04 AM

Hey mate! It looks ok to me - your thumb is anchored and the movement occurs from the wrist smile.gif Now it's pretty much a question of:

- gathering experience by playing as much as possible in contexts that have articulation as a main goal
- working out your ears in order to be able to aim for the desired notes fast and precise

Keep up the good work here!

QUOTE (liveOASISforever @ Mar 17 2014, 08:14 PM) *
I have being watching a few different videos and looking at different peoples techniques. On one of Guthrie Govan's videos. He says to make the bend a little sharp before starting the vibrato this way it won't sound flat.

Then I was amazed to find out that B.B King doesn't use his thumb on the back of the neck when he does his vibrato.This seems very hard.

My bends are really poor. I am working on them but they never seem to be consistent in reaching the correct pitch.Then my vibrato sounds terrible in this video.I think that its mostly due to not having the finger strength to be able to control everything I will get better faster by showing you all where I am at with it and get your advice smile.gif

I will need to give my fingers a rest now because they are becoming very ache laugh.gif



Posted by: liveOASISforever Mar 18 2014, 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 18 2014, 08:04 AM) *
Hey mate! It looks ok to me - your thumb is anchored and the movement occurs from the wrist smile.gif Now it's pretty much a question of:

- gathering experience by playing as much as possible in contexts that have articulation as a main goal
- working out your ears in order to be able to aim for the desired notes fast and precise

Keep up the good work here!


Cheers Cosmin

I totally agree with your points.I am trying to work with my ear training a lot more and really focus on the sound of notes,chords and scales ect. To try and process this into my head. To be honest I have neglected this in the past and really need to change things by working hard at it now smile.gif

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 19 2014, 08:51 AM

QUOTE (liveOASISforever @ Mar 18 2014, 05:37 PM) *
Cheers Cosmin

I totally agree with your points.I am trying to work with my ear training a lot more and really focus on the sound of notes,chords and scales ect. To try and process this into my head. To be honest I have neglected this in the past and really need to change things by working hard at it now smile.gif


It's never too late to become conscious of a situation and work on improving wink.gif It would only shameful if you realize it, you can do it, but you won't smile.gif Share some progress here with us and I'll be happy to share my thoughts on how you can improve bends and articulation in general wink.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 20 2014, 10:01 AM

Your left hand look good even if it's still visible that You hesitate between wrist and fingers muscles while vibrating. The good news is the video shows You know how the vibrating mechanism works and it's only a matter of time when it will start to feel very natural and consistent. Keep us updated. You're doing well with this smile.gif

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Mar 20 2014, 02:54 PM

QUOTE (liveOASISforever @ Mar 17 2014, 05:14 PM) *
I have being watching a few different videos and looking at different peoples techniques. On one of Guthrie Govan's videos. He says to make the bend a little sharp before starting the vibrato this way it won't sound flat.

Then I was amazed to find out that B.B King doesn't use his thumb on the back of the neck when he does his vibrato.This seems very hard.

My bends are really poor. I am working on them but they never seem to be consistent in reaching the correct pitch.Then my vibrato sounds terrible in this video.I think that its mostly due to not having the finger strength to be able to control everything I will get better faster by showing you all where I am at with it and get your advice smile.gif

I will need to give my fingers a rest now because they are becoming very ache laugh.gif







Thanks for sharing mate.Its always good watching different peoples approach to things.



As Cosmin and Darius said, everything looks good on your video. You are playing the bends with the right motion and adding vibrato correctly. You aren't still comfortable with both techniques because you need practice to train your year and gain more strength with your left hand. If it's possible practice bending over backing tracks to be sure that you are reaching the correct pitches.

Posted by: liveOASISforever Mar 20 2014, 07:21 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 20 2014, 09:01 AM) *
Your left hand look good even if it's still visible that You hesitate between wrist and fingers muscles while vibrating. The good news is the video shows You know how the vibrating mechanism works and it's only a matter of time when it will start to feel very natural and consistent. Keep us updated. You're doing well with this smile.gif


Thanks a lot Darius.I am dedicating a good amount of practice time each day to this.So hopefully it does become more natural to me smile.gif

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Mar 20 2014, 01:54 PM) *
As Cosmin and Darius said, everything looks good on your video. You are playing the bends with the right motion and adding vibrato correctly. You aren't still comfortable with both techniques because you need practice to train your year and gain more strength with your left hand. If it's possible practice bending over backing tracks to be sure that you are reaching the correct pitches.


I think thats a good idea Gabriel to practice over a backing track. I will start doing this.You are right about it still not being comfortable but after giving some focused practice on it over the last few days I can feel it becoming more comfortable.

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 19 2014, 07:51 AM) *
It's never too late to become conscious of a situation and work on improving wink.gif It would only shameful if you realize it, you can do it, but you won't smile.gif Share some progress here with us and I'll be happy to share my thoughts on how you can improve bends and articulation in general wink.gif


Very true Cosmin. I used to play bends not knowing whether they were too the correct pitch or not because I was a lazy player. Now I have a different and more positive way of thinking and going over all these important details to improve my guitar playing.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 21 2014, 09:41 AM

QUOTE (liveOASISforever @ Mar 20 2014, 06:21 PM) *
Very true Cosmin. I used to play bends not knowing whether they were too the correct pitch or not because I was a lazy player. Now I have a different and more positive way of thinking and going over all these important details to improve my guitar playing.


It may sound a bit weird, but I was always very scared of the idea of sounding a bit under pitched or over pitched and since I began realizing the importance of good articulation, I was obsessing over bending and vibrato. It ended up as a good thing as I've been training my ears unconsciously and that gave me good results smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Mar 21 2014, 11:56 AM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 21 2014, 09:41 AM) *
It may sound a bit weird, but I was always very scared of the idea of sounding a bit under pitched or over pitched and since I began realizing the importance of good articulation, I was obsessing over bending and vibrato. It ended up as a good thing as I've been training my ears unconsciously and that gave me good results smile.gif

Oh man, i have a love/hate relationship with bends. It’s imo what makes guitar playing so beautiful and unique as you can really “shape” the notes the way you want, but it can destroy everything if the pitch is wrong.

Nearly on every recording i do, i stay left with some doubts if the pitch is correct and i’m always unsure about it. Often on my normal headphones/monitors it sounds correct, but listening to it on internal speakers of my laptop or low quality headphones the doubts come back. The reduced frequency range of these speakers seem to make some overtones more auditable.


Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 22 2014, 09:02 AM

QUOTE (wrk @ Mar 21 2014, 10:56 AM) *
Oh man, i have a love/hate relationship with bends. It’s imo what makes guitar playing so beautiful and unique as you can really “shape” the notes the way you want, but it can destroy everything if the pitch is wrong.

Nearly on every recording i do, i stay left with some doubts if the pitch is correct and i’m always unsure about it. Often on my normal headphones/monitors it sounds correct, but listening to it on internal speakers of my laptop or low quality headphones the doubts come back. The reduced frequency range of these speakers seem to make some overtones more auditable.


Mate, pitch is pitch smile.gif I don't think that i was ever put in the situation of recording something within pitch and then hearing it badly because of tech issues. It was usually just my playing. Now, a good exercise that will always show you how to stay in pitch, would be to play along the lessons you are learning and try to imitate the everything note for note. It's one of the best ear training exercises EVER!

Posted by: wrk Mar 22 2014, 11:00 AM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 22 2014, 09:02 AM) *
Mate, pitch is pitch smile.gif I don't think that i was ever put in the situation of recording something within pitch and then hearing it badly because of tech issues. It was usually just my playing. Now, a good exercise that will always show you how to stay in pitch, would be to play along the lessons you are learning and try to imitate the everything note for note. It's one of the best ear training exercises EVER!

Sorry, i was not really clear i guess … of course it’s my playing and not technical issues if the pitch is wrong! I just have the impression i can hear and verify pitch errors easier on low qualify speakers (more high frequencies balanced speakers) as on my normal speakers/headphones.

The pitch on simple bends is quite easy to check, but a bend with all kinds of variations like pre-bend, fast or slow bend or release, vibrato, and what not … i find it difficult to be sure. I thought my ears are normally not too bad, but maybe there are doing funny things with me sometimes smile.gif







Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 22 2014, 12:50 PM

WRK - to be honest I don't know what to think about it smile.gif I do use different speaker for mixing purpose and there is a reason for this but in deed...never consider any speaker type affect my hearing in the field of pitch. Hard to tell what's exaclty happening in Your case...sounds very interesting smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Mar 22 2014, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 22 2014, 12:50 PM) *
WRK - to be honest I don't know what to think about it smile.gif I do use different speaker for mixing purpose and there is a reason for this but in deed...never consider any speaker type affect my hearing in the field of pitch. Hard to tell what's exaclty happening in Your case...sounds very interesting smile.gif

Oh oh, i thought it’s a common issue, but now i start to get scared laugh.gif

Seems i can evaluate pitch easier in higher frequencies ranges. For example, if i tune my guitar without a tuner, i often check as well the tuning with harmonics (7th fret E string, 5th fret A string, etc ..)

For recording i use an iMac with AKG K271 Headphones or Yamaha HS50 speaker. The complete frequency range on both are quite balanced. If i listen to the same take on the internal speaker of my Mac Air or the standard apple in ear headphones, the frequency spectrum is a bit limited and high orientated … not sure if this is completely correct, but this is how i hear it.

It’s not really a “pitch check strategy” to use different speakers, but often a bad surprise where i start to have doubts if the pitch is correct or not.

Hope my explanation is not completely senseless smile.gif




Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 22 2014, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (wrk @ Mar 22 2014, 10:00 AM) *
Sorry, i was not really clear i guess … of course it’s my playing and not technical issues if the pitch is wrong! I just have the impression i can hear and verify pitch errors easier on low qualify speakers (more high frequencies balanced speakers) as on my normal speakers/headphones.

The pitch on simple bends is quite easy to check, but a bend with all kinds of variations like pre-bend, fast or slow bend or release, vibrato, and what not … i find it difficult to be sure. I thought my ears are normally not too bad, but maybe there are doing funny things with me sometimes smile.gif


Mate, usually, when your ears get really well accustomed with things you will be able to hear stuff in the roughest of environments. Start working with your ears more and you will definitely feel the benefits wink.gif

Posted by: wrk Mar 23 2014, 11:14 AM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Mar 22 2014, 03:29 PM) *
Mate, usually, when your ears get really well accustomed with things you will be able to hear stuff in the roughest of environments. Start working with your ears more and you will definitely feel the benefits wink.gif

Hm, i guess you are right. Thanks Cosmin !! .. smile.gif


Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 23 2014, 11:33 AM

Nothing to it mate! Glad to help wink.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 25 2014, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (wrk @ Mar 22 2014, 02:57 PM) *
Oh oh, i thought it’s a common issue, but now i start to get scared laugh.gif

Seems i can evaluate pitch easier in higher frequencies ranges. For example, if i tune my guitar without a tuner, i often check as well the tuning with harmonics (7th fret E string, 5th fret A string, etc ..)

For recording i use an iMac with AKG K271 Headphones or Yamaha HS50 speaker. The complete frequency range on both are quite balanced. If i listen to the same take on the internal speaker of my Mac Air or the standard apple in ear headphones, the frequency spectrum is a bit limited and high orientated … not sure if this is completely correct, but this is how i hear it.

It’s not really a “pitch check strategy” to use different speakers, but often a bad surprise where i start to have doubts if the pitch is correct or not.

Hope my explanation is not completely senseless smile.gif



You're explanation is well written and clear smile.gif I think it's very good to talk about thoughts like Your's. Being curious is what make us discover and understand things. I'm afraid that this issue is much more complicated. Consider all of us have a bit different hearing. It refers to mixing as well.

I hope it's just something that Cosmin mentioned - maybe a matter of workout smile.gif

I wish You solve the problem.. honestly smile.gif

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 26 2014, 09:02 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 25 2014, 02:47 PM) *
You're explanation is well written and clear smile.gif I think it's very good to talk about thoughts like Your's. Being curious is what make us discover and understand things. I'm afraid that this issue is much more complicated. Consider all of us have a bit different hearing. It refers to mixing as well.

I hope it's just something that Cosmin mentioned - maybe a matter of workout smile.gif

I wish You solve the problem.. honestly smile.gif


Darius is right and I would suggest a little test smile.gif Try listening to things early in the morning, when the ears are at their best wink.gif You will see then if there are some differences, way better than in other situations.

Posted by: wrk Mar 26 2014, 09:32 AM

I might even add more to it as there really is of an issue. True, listening with fresh ears after a break often helps. On normal recordings those things can be easily fixed, but it’s quite annoying when i record a video and play the whole tune/solo and then realise later that some bends are not perfect. It’s like an obsession at the moment and my technique seems not be 100% as well.

Thanks again Darius and Cosmin !!

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 26 2014, 10:27 AM

Well....guitar is a nasty instrument in case of tuning anyway smile.gif Bends are only one aspect...we also have issues caused by different pressure on the fret tongue.gif Also...tune getting messed by the temperature on stage...those are just a few examples. How poor we are tongue.gif

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Mar 27 2014, 09:46 AM

Glad to have been able to help out mate - Darius is right smile.gif The guitar is like a moody woman, beautiful and sweet, but extremely moody.

I always place my guitars onstage at least 30 minutes before the show so that they will get used to the stage temperature and then before starting, our tech gives them a final tuning.

Posted by: guitarsennin Dec 19 2014, 07:16 AM

I was trying to make my vibrato similar to that of a vocalist, so what I did was slow down a track and I listened to how the singer put their vibrato (I listened to a few singers), and what I noticed was common between all of them was that they would hit the note, and then go slightly SHARP, and then back to the note, when they did vibrato.


When I bend, I naturally make my vibrato go flat, then back to target note, then back, etc. and I found it very hard to do my bend vibratos sharp. (I'll have to work on that). So I tend to do target note-flat - target note when I do a vibrato on a bend, but sharp when I do it on a regular fretted note.

I don't know why it's like that for me, and I find that I really like how my normal vibrato sounds (which, on a guitar, is always sharp), but not so much my bend vibrato.

I don't think there really is a correct way, but to me, it sounds nicer to slightly sharpen the note during vibrato.

Try finding a guitarist whose vibrato you really like (or any instrument) and slow down a track and see if you can figure out what they're doing.

Posted by: fkalich Dec 19 2014, 07:35 AM

A singer's vibrato is a sort of quirky physiological thing, It is more akin to pick tapping, opposing muscle sets are held constricted and alternatively each side is relaxed, typically about 7 cycles a second or so.

This is the vocal vibrato that I personally try to emulate when playing guitar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwHWbsvgQUE

QUOTE (guitarsennin @ Dec 19 2014, 01:16 AM) *
I was trying to make my vibrato similar to that of a vocalist, so what I

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 19 2014, 07:12 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 19 2014, 06:35 AM) *
A singer's vibrato is a sort of quirky physiological thing, It is more akin to pick tapping, opposing muscle sets are held constricted and alternatively each side is relaxed, typically about 7 cycles a second or so.

This is the vocal vibrato that I personally try to emulate when playing guitar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwHWbsvgQUE


Ohohooo - this one is pretty violent I'd say biggrin.gif In the last reply, our friend - guitarsennin - has made the best point. Try to imitate the vibrato/bending/expression of the artist you enjoy listening to and I would add that you don't and should definitely not resume to guitarists - try saxophone players, violinists, vocalists of course. Pick up your favorite lines played by the type of instruments I have mentioned and try to sort them out with the guitar - your ears and hands will thank you, as soon as you get as close to the original expression of those instruments.

Posted by: fkalich Dec 19 2014, 08:43 PM

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Dec 19 2014, 01:12 PM) *
Ohohooo - this one is pretty violent I'd say biggrin.gif In the last reply, our friend - guitarsennin - has made the best point. Try to imitate the vibrato/bending/expression of the artist you enjoy listening to and I would add that you don't and should definitely not resume to guitarists - try saxophone players, violinists, vocalists of course. Pick up your favorite lines played by the type of instruments I have mentioned and try to sort them out with the guitar - your ears and hands will thank you, as soon as you get as close to the original expression of those instruments.


I've heard violinists who had a great vibrato. But to tell you the truth, I have never heard a guitarist that I thought had a really great vibrato. I'm working on it though.

Posted by: Rhida Dec 19 2014, 11:34 PM

Listen to Yngwie Malmsteen or Gary Moore!

Posted by: Bossie Dec 20 2014, 01:06 AM

When it comes to bending and vibrato i'm always glad when i get some fresh strings on the guitar ...always a world of difference when you get the smoothness of fresh strings

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 20 2014, 09:01 AM

QUOTE (Rhida @ Dec 19 2014, 10:34 PM) *
Listen to Yngwie Malmsteen or Gary Moore!


Good point - or Andy Timmons/Satriani/Guthrie Govan or Dimebag Darrel biggrin.gif Every one of them has a trademark touch on the guitar which makes them extremely recognizable!

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