Musical Prodigy And Natural Talent. Options

[Kristofer Dahl]

Kris, common are you messing with us?, you obviously knew what you were playing here, for this you need to keep count, this is not as simple as trooper.

hehe no I am not messing with you. The way we wrote "Green Robot" was that I had an arpeggio sequence which suited my fingers (but took no consideration to the beat), I showed this to the drummer and he certainly had to know what he was doing because no standard beats would work.

In retrospect I like we did wtih Artifex - but the grooviest tunes/riffs were the ones in 4/4. If I had to do another such album - I would rather go for the groove than the "weirdness".

Now I have to ask, what are you doing at around 0:44 on The Green Robot, it sounds different, is it economy picking?, it sounds like alternate but has a different feel.

Good spotting! Yes it's economy picking - at the time I only used economy picking!

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[Prantare]

You guys have some great ideas about musicality.

I have always been listening to music.. and when I started to write my own songs it all just came flowing; I haven't been practicing anything at all really. Still; I don't feel like it's a skill or a natural talent.. it feels like it comes from feelings I've experienced.. and as long there are feelings the music also exists. In that way; I've been practicing feelings.

However, I think that technical virtuosity only comes from practicing dexterity, which can be practiced in many different ways. Perhaps by writing on a computer-keyboard, playing guitar or perhaps playing TV-games.

Those are just my two cents.. and to be honest I don't know sh*t about anything - so I might change my thoughts in the next hour or two. :-)

Cheers.

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This post has been edited by Prantare: Oct 7 2008, 08:45 PM

[Ivan Milenkovic]

Talent is a very subjective and relative topic in general, so I think I can only give my opinion on the matter, and cannot really say anything about any others opinion, because these opinions are not really comparable.

I think some people do have talent, and that means that they are born with a certain ability, that is superior to most other humans, so they have predisposition to succeed in certain things. On top of that talent means only just that - a predisposition - something that can only be developed through hard work, so if somebody has a talent, he still has to prove that talent through hard work. Only then talent can be seen or heard in its true greatness.

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[Kristofer Dahl]

I think some people do have talent, and that means that they are born with a certain ability, that is superior to most other humans, so they have predisposition to succeed in certain things. On top of that talent means only just that - a predisposition - something that can only be developed through hard work, so if somebody has a talent, he still has to prove that talent through hard work. Only then talent can be seen or heard in its true greatness.

I know this is a common way of looking at it - basically saying that you can come a long way without talent - but in the end it's the natural ability that will determine whether you get up to that absolute top-notch-standard.

I believe that what will determine that, is whether you think of every nuance on the way, or have you just stressed through those exercises for a couple of years. That is for the technical aspects playing guitar, for instance.

Now as for the musical/composing aspect - I believe that what comes out in the end is a mix of all the inputs you have had, what you choose to do with that depends on your analytical skills. In other when and how you choose to use what you have learned.

I still don't want to describe that as natural talent - I think it's a skill you get through constantly analyzing the inputs you get. I think you do need lots of brains - but I refuse to believe it lies in some natural given gene.

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[sigma7]

hey do what i do, think that u do have natural talent. it helps a lot

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[Kristofer Dahl]

hey do what i do, think that u do have natural talent. it helps a lot

Well you see - one of the reason why I am excited about this discussion, I because I don't believe that the "natural talent" thing is helpful at all!

What if I, when I was 23 - had told myself that "the only thing I can do is play guitar I can't learn about computers" (at the time I didn't know anything about web development etc). Then I would not have bought my first pc and started learning about the web (=no GMC).

Or what if you think "the only thing I can do is play guitar and write songs - I can't learn about marketing" - perhaps that will be the only reason why you don't make it big?!

We need to think "outside the box": you can do whatever you devote yourself to!

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[IDontWantMyUsern...]

Well you see - one of the reason why I am excited about this discussion, I because I don't believe that the "natural talent" thing is helpful at all!

What if I, when I was 23 - had told myself that "the only thing I can do is play guitar I can't learn about computers" (at the time I didn't know anything about web development etc). Then I would not have bought my first pc and started learning about the web (=no GMC).

Or what if you think "the only thing I can do is play guitar and write songs - I can't learn about marketing" - perhaps that will be the only reason why you don't make it big?!

We need to think "outside the box": you can do whatever you devote yourself to!

Wow, that made a lot of sense to me!

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[Bogdan Radovic]

We need to think "outside the box": you can do whatever you devote yourself to!

This is how I see it too...

Now I think of "talent" as natural predisposition to start doing something - playing instrument , basketball or fixing cars..Its a thing that gets you motivated/interested to start developing certain skill...So if you are playing the instrument - you are talented (In my opinion), and you can achieve anything..Your success rate will depend on millions of factors because we are all different human beings...Have you ever thought why you started playing guitar or developing any other skill ?? Why that particular skill ?? What driven you to a such idea ?

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[Gerardo Siere]

There is a lot of musical stuff that is done by intuition, and even the things we play we are not so aware what are we exactly doing, that is way is so difficult to teach (often better teachers are people who has to work their way throught it like Abel Carlevaro in the classical guitar world?, as personale experience there is this local guitar hero Marcelo Villegas that doesnt know any theory, his 17 year old son plays classical piano and has wan every piano contest he was in and now is studying abroad, but even he is a genius he locked in his teacher house for practicing 6 hrs a day minimun. So you wanna get to top regardless any talent you have you-ll have to practice.

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[Marek Rojewski]

For me if You are talented You learn faster. Nothing will replace practice, but I remember that I had a friend and I always learned more in the same time, even when we were doing the same thing. Another thing is, that his other friends learned even faster:P

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[berko]

I'm afraid i'm simply going to sum up what has already been written in this thread, but here you go:

Taking technique into consideration, imo it is simply a matter of self-discipline and amount of time practicing. I would prefer it being measured in minutes of concentrated practicing. Does not matter how many years you have been practicing, the point is how many minutes, hours you have spent with the instrument you are playing, and how many of this time is spent with concentrating on your improvement, on your skill you lack but would like to attain. This requires "brains" to do it intelligently, with metronome, in a relaxed manner, full of motivation, with GMC, sometime trying to achive a tricky yet fully desired lick or run.

I'm not so sure whether the composing-musical aspect should be that much independent than one's technical playing. Opportunities on an istrument gained with technique certainly opens a great deal of new approaches. However without extreme abilities fine music can be accessed.

From now on, dealing with musicality, talent for me is the inspiritation and affinity towards music. It isn't even necessary to tell a note's perfect pitch, or tell wheter its a 6th or a 7th interval. Even though this is useful and even though the ear can be properly trained, everyone will hear what he or she likes, and with a wide musical experience (that is: input, input processed along the long road of practicin and creating music) music referred to as "wow, very nice melodies" will shift from neoclassical to for example blues or fushion. A good sense of rythm can be trained also.

Personally, i pick up things quickly, but i guess this is just because i use my brains, i mean i concentrate on feeling the music. This may sound as bull*** , anyway, this way i discover so much in less time.

Anyway, my personal experience was that a non-musical friend of mine who started to play the bass without any sense of music (first he claimed he couldn't clearly distinguish notes !), now reached a decent skill in only 1,5 years, plays in a band, and improvises a tapping session without thinking, still, he does not refer to himself as a prodigy being discovered by me...He became a good musician and would like to be a professional later on.

Music is a great thing to do, i don't really know why people refer to it as a realm in the clouds where only prodigious, natural talents gain access. If someone picks up an instrument just for the heck of it, because he or she had listened to a cool song and wants to play it but later on dives into this magnificent world, then imo music is a great world to hang around.

cheers, now back to practicing

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[Koopid]

It all depends on your defenition of talent. I would say that talent does exist and that is a very important part of learning anything.

I would say natural talent is the ability to learn or understand something without or with very little instruction.

I have a natural ability for math. I hated math in school and I never payed it much attention. I could see an answer without having to calculate it. I could just see the number 11 beeing the answer for example, then I had to find some kind of formula to put on paper to get that number. I was usually right. I could also solve problems in ways my teacher never knew they could (often the normal way was better and easier but still heh).

I have no natural ability for music. Before internet and tabs I could not learn. I couldnt hear I was playing the wrong notes and I couldnt pick out anything by ear. I can (to some extent) now, but that is because someone (in this case tabs) tought me. I have now by the use of tabs learned so many songs that I have started to learn "how to listen" so that I can put it to use when picking out songs.

That said, talent can only take you so far. The same goes for practice. Talent without practice will not get you to the top. Unfortunatly you cant get to the top with practice without talent. I disagree with those people that say that you only have to practice more to become the best. The thing is that "the best" are also practicing as much as they can *and* they have easier to learn.

My opinion...

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[Rousseau Mannan]

To me, it is either used as a synonymy to "skilled" or by someone who does not understand the mechanics of self improvement.

Well said Kris. And an excellent topic. I have argued over this topic several times with a lot of people and every time I came across newer believes and insights. I personally don't believe in so called talent. Like Kris said, it's actually the skill that people see to misunderstand as talent.

Just for an example, lets say Mr. John Doe is a son of a extremely talented guitarist and successful guitarist. He grew up all his life around music. Many would assume that he is naturally talented, but what if he has no interest in playing guitar or music in general and never practiced his entire life. Do you think he has any chances of being a good guitar player if he starts to play all on a sudden. Well, he only will if dedicates him self completely to playing guitar.

This dilemma of talent is somewhat of a concept found in the ancient traditions, where people where judged by their birth. Like if you are born a king then you have the highest respect in society even though now we know that its completely meaningless. Scientists have proven that all human are born with the same amount of brain and therefore, equally capable of everything except for a few unlucky people who had birth difficulties.

The reason behind the belief of "talent" is actually altered by certain variables rather than your birth. How you grew up and the circumstances greatly affects ones ability to do something. Like as I mentioned earlier, Mr. John Doe has all the positive variables on his side to achieve success as a musician. His father was a musician so grew up around music and got all the facilities to develop and he also might have better reach to the business people in the field which will sure help him to be successful as a professional musician. On the other hand, a kid that grew up in the poverty of Africa and barely gets enough food to eat three times a day let alone getting music lessons or buying an instruments. Do you think he has any chances of being a successful musician?

I believe in one thing that is, "if there is a will, there is a way." If you can believe and dream of being a good and successful musician and you are motivated, then nothing can stop you.

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