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GMC Forum _ GEAR & PRODUCTION _ Tone Issues
Posted by: bleez Jul 7 2014, 10:53 PM
Tone issues or maybe just my 'touch' 
* disclaimer... Im not so great at getting tones, I just blindly alter pre-sets until they kinda sound okay to me.
Its either my fingers ( which is fair enough ) or its my tone / software. For the record Im using a ux1 with pod farm 1 ( old stuff, I know )
Im about ready to bin it and get something newer maybe overloud or something but I wanted to get opinions first, just incase this is something Im doing, which Id probably end up doing again with new software!
I dont think Im getting any kind of sustain. Above the 12th and especially on the G string. Ive used 2 guitars here and although the LP gives me a bit more..... I think its still not right although it gets a little better lower down the neck.
Why would the notes be dying on me so badly here?
Posted by: SixStringSamurai Jul 7 2014, 11:16 PM
Sounds like your guitar might need a setup or a fret dress or something.
Posted by: Mertay Jul 8 2014, 12:55 AM
You're sure there is no gate in the chain right?
Posted by: SixStringSamurai Jul 8 2014, 02:32 AM
I think the old POD Farm stuff (might be wrong, it's been a few years) has a built in gate, but I would have thought it would cut off the lower notes quickly as well, whereas the problem that's occurring seems to be localised to a part of the fretboard.
But yeah, good idea - find the gate and turn it off if you can, and see how much difference that makes.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 8 2014, 02:49 AM
Sounds like a NOISE GATE is killing your sustain. There is a default gate built in to the interface even if you don't put a gate pedal in the chain, see screen grab attached. It's default setting is perhaps a bit strong perhaps. Maybe turn it OFF to see how much it's cutting off?
* disclaimer... Im not so great at getting tones, I just blindly alter pre-sets until they kinda sound okay to me.
Its either my fingers ( which is fair enough ) or its my tone / software. For the record Im using a ux1 with pod farm 1 ( old stuff, I know )
Im about ready to bin it and get something newer maybe overloud or something but I wanted to get opinions first, just incase this is something Im doing, which Id probably end up doing again with new software!
I dont think Im getting any kind of sustain. Above the 12th and especially on the G string. Ive used 2 guitars here and although the LP gives me a bit more..... I think its still not right although it gets a little better lower down the neck.
Why would the notes be dying on me so badly here?
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 8 2014, 05:11 AM
Hi mate! I agree with Todd's comment. This usually happens when you have a gate activated and the threshold is very low. This means that once your sound achieves the threshold level, your guitar is muted. The effect sounds like a fast fade out because gates usually have a "release" setting.
Please check that, and it there isn't a gate, another thing that I would try is another guitar cable. This could be another reason why you do't have good sustain, but I think that the gate should be the problem.
Let us know if you can solve it!
Posted by: bleez Jul 8 2014, 08:20 AM
I had a quick try this morning, I do have a gate in the chain so I switched it off. There was a little improvement. I'll record it tonight after work. I wouldnt say it was a huge difference, a little bit for sure, but I'll let you guys hear it tonight.
I couldnt find a built in gate, I'll need to have another look tonight hopefully there is one there I can kill.
I ordered some new leads a few days ago, so they should be with me any day, so I'll be able to try that very soon.
this is the current effects Ive got just now :
[attachment=37870:1.jpg]
I tried switching off each pedal in turn but there wasnt much improvement in the sustain above the 12th fret.
Posted by: klasaine Jul 8 2014, 02:23 PM
That does not sound like a guitar or cable issue to me at all. If it was a guitar set-up issue you'd (usually) hear a buzz before the note died. *I'd have to physically play your axe to be 100% sure though.
There's something weird going on in the chain somewhere.
The reverb 'may' have a gate or a frequency cut off built into it too.
Posted by: bleez Jul 8 2014, 03:52 PM
There's something weird going on in the chain somewhere.
The reverb 'may' have a gate or a frequency cut off built into it too.
Thats good because I thought maybe with the ibby being new there may be an issue which is why I fired up my Paul because I recently had that refretted and professionally setup, the guy who done it is really good.
Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Jul 8 2014, 05:47 PM
It shouldn't be an issue with your guitar if this also happens with another guitar. Have you tried using a totally different patch? maybe some presets or downloaded patches?
Posted by: Spock Jul 8 2014, 06:05 PM
100% that is Noise Gate in there somewhere - you can hear it killing out the note at a steep decline. I see it in your chain but like someone else said it could be one of the other effects.
Have you ever gone to any of the Line 6 community forums and download user patches? There are some really good ones, do a search by the artist name you are trying to emulate and many times there are multiple options.
Posted by: Ben Higgins Jul 8 2014, 07:20 PM
Yeah I also think it sounds like the software.. I always had the same issue with guitar plugins. No sustain. But altering the noise gate, trying to add a compressor / distortion pedal into the chain before the amp head will make a difference.
Most of those amp head simulators sound weak on their own so you need to add some stomp box simulator to the chain before the amp head to give it some BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLS
Took me ages before I figured that one out. For ages I couldn't understand why people were able to make those free VST amps sound great. When I used them they sounded like cack.
Then I realised you put the pedal before the amp. Duh. Oh well, it's good I'm not in nuclear physics innit ?
Posted by: klasaine Jul 8 2014, 07:35 PM
They had stopped using tube amps and distortion pedals in the physics community by 1962
*Good call ... OD pedal model before (or in to) amp model.
Posted by: Mertay Jul 8 2014, 07:43 PM
Side note for possible guitar related sustain problems incase needed;
-frets dirty
-pickups too close to strings (on older S series, mid. pickup caused a huge problem some 10 years ago and they changed the pickup)
-strings old (or the ones with new guitar, they use the cheapest strings out of factory), also thicker strings tend to have less sustain like 0.11 etc.
-bad setup like neck angle and strings too close to frets cause of trem. height (even if it doesn't buzz)
-cheap floyd type bridge
As for software gate, I really like the one built in guitar rig. For hardware, haven't tried but everybody I know advises ISP Decimator.
Posted by: Spock Jul 8 2014, 07:44 PM
Excellent advice Ben and I had forgotten about that.
Try a tube screamer in front of the amp, i used that in my chain.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 8 2014, 11:49 PM
What about the gate NOT in the chain that I mentioned in my post? The one built in to the app? IS that one off?
I tried switching off each pedal in turn but there wasnt much improvement in the sustain above the 12th fret.
BINGO!!! Just like in the real world, putting an overdrive before the amp (primary gain stage) is a great idea!
I always put an overdrive (and two expanders and a compressor, and sometimes a stomp eq!) before my gain/amp stage. It provides more boost, drives the amp better, makes it easier to play, and increases sustain
HERE IS AN OVERLOUD TH2 PATCH TO DEMONSTRATE!
TH2_247_ActivePickupPresets.xml.zip ( 1.99K )
: 60
Most of those amp head simulators sound weak on their own so you need to add some stomp box simulator to the chain before the amp head to give it some BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLS
Took me ages before I figured that one out. For ages I couldn't understand why people were able to make those free VST amps sound great. When I used them they sounded like cack.
Then I realised you put the pedal before the amp. Duh. Oh well, it's good I'm not in nuclear physics innit ?
Posted by: bleez Jul 9 2014, 08:25 AM
LOL! this is brand new information to me I would not make a very good nuclear type dude either.
Hey Todd, I totally cant find a built in gate. I looked around but I just cant see one. I looked at the free amplituibe and seen their built in gate but I cant see one in the pod farm 1 Im using.
HERE IS AN OVERLOUD TH2 PATCH TO DEMONSTRATE!
I removed the (in chain) gate and reverb, helped a little but I'll try putting pedals in front of the amp tonight
thanks guys.
Posted by: Ben Higgins Jul 9 2014, 08:27 AM
thanks guys.Good, I look forward to hearing how it went - it did the trick for me.
Posted by: bleez Jul 9 2014, 10:56 PM
So I tried adding in a tube screamer before the amp. This is the full chain :
[attachment=37891:patch.jpg]
I played with the 3 different settings :
1. Noise gate - Amp - pedals - reverb ( basically my old patch for reference )
2. Gate - tube screamer - amp - pedals - reverb
3 - tube screamer - amp - pedals - reverb
I used my Paul first, ran through the 3 configurations above and then done the same with the ibby.
seems no gate and a tube screamer first in the chain is giving loads more sustain. Also my Paul seems to be much better than my ibby for sustain using this patch.
what d'ya think?
Posted by: Spock Jul 9 2014, 11:03 PM
Almost there man - sounding great
I like the effect with the noise gate in it, (#2 setting) except you need to tweak the settings on the noise gate so it doesn't cut you out so quickly. You will get almost the full effect of the tube screamer but it will knock out a lot of back ground noise (palm hitting strings and stuff).
Also - try the noise gate behind the tube screamer - or even behind the amp.
But I think your #2 setting with a little backing off on the gate is going to give you what you are looking for, unless you just want balls to the wall - then take the gate out all together.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 10 2014, 12:53 AM
Yup #2 is probably your best best! Ill take a screen grab of the built in gate:( If that's still on it's cutting off your sustain 
But yeah, gates should go before your pedals/amps typically Also, you can combine hardware/software, just like pros do! You can get an actual overdrive pedal, of pretty much any kind (overdrive, not distortion) and run your guitar in to it, then in to the pod. Turn level to 7 or so, keep drive near zero and tone about 6 then tweak to taste. This is akin to putting a preamp in your chain an will drive everything a bit harder and better and raise your signal level a bit so it's hotter when it hits your gain stage
I like the effect with the noise gate in it, (#2 setting) except you need to tweak the settings on the noise gate so it doesn't cut you out so quickly. You will get almost the full effect of the tube screamer but it will knock out a lot of back ground noise (palm hitting strings and stuff).
Also - try the noise gate behind the tube screamer - or even behind the amp.
But I think your #2 setting with a little backing off on the gate is going to give you what you are looking for, unless you just want balls to the wall - then take the gate out all together.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 10 2014, 02:06 AM
AND HERE IT IS!!!!! This is a screen grab of the ENTIRE interface. Notice the section that is highlighted brighter in the upper left. See where it says GATE? Click that button to turn off the built in gate. I"m guessing that may be killing some of your sustain?
Posted by: Mertay Jul 10 2014, 02:40 AM
Gate issue seems to be solved but can't exactly figure out from video why S guitars sustain still not there...
To be fair LP's are sustain machines by weight, bridge and even pickup advantages (mid-high favored pickups have an advantage but on extreme gain the highs from pickup are bad for a clear distorted sound) so in theory it should be better than the S anyway.
Makes me think its a setup issue specially since sustain decreases fast when you bend rather than hold the note. First thing comes to mind if the strings are too low that the radius is interrupting vibration without any buzzing. Further is more about clean frets/new strings and maybe even an inspection by a pro luthier.
Its not terrible or have something to worry but if that guitar is a keeper (I saw the sticker is still on the humbucker, keeping it incase of refund?) a pro treatment should have benefits (as every new guitar needs no matter the price imho).
Posted by: klasaine Jul 10 2014, 02:48 AM
I still feel that some type of gate somewhere is 'on'.
With that much gain you should be able to get a note to sustain forever and flip into harmonic feedback.
Posted by: bleez Jul 10 2014, 12:46 PM
I dont think my version of pod farm has the built in gate, if it does.... it's a ninja gate, I cant see it!
[attachment=37904:pf1.jpg]
I agree with you guys about the second tone, I like that much better than no gate at all. I'll play with the threshold and decay on the gate, see if it helps some more. I might just get myself an actual overdrive pedal at the weekend to plug into the ux1.
Its not terrible or have something to worry but if that guitar is a keeper (I saw the sticker is still on the humbucker, keeping it incase of refund?) a pro treatment should have benefits (as every new guitar needs no matter the price imho).
its a keeper for sure. I think I'll take it to the local guitar guy at the weekend, at least he can play it and tell me for sure how the setup is because I really wouldnt know. If he thinks it needs a setup I'll get it done. Other than this sustain issue, the guitar is amazing.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 10 2014, 01:43 PM
Egad!!! I though you said you were using POD FARM 2? It looks like you are using POD FARM Version 1? Sadly I started using pod farm at version 2. But the good news is I think you are correct! I dont see a gate either
[attachment=37904:pf1.jpg]
I agree with you guys about the second tone, I like that much better than no gate at all. I'll play with the threshold and decay on the gate, see if it helps some more. I might just get myself an actual overdrive pedal at the weekend to plug into the ux1.
its a keeper for sure. I think I'll take it to the local guitar guy at the weekend, at least he can play it and tell me for sure how the setup is because I really wouldnt know. If he thinks it needs a setup I'll get it done. Other than this sustain issue, the guitar is amazing.
Posted by: Todd Simpson Sep 16 2014, 02:21 AM
So did you decide to upgrade your software? The PODFARM stuff is a great way to get started as it's one of the least complicated to use overall. Guitar Rig and Amplitude are good packages as well. Both make a FREE version which I'd say is worth downloading no matter what.
I still have to say that I'd fully suggest TH2 which you can download as a demo. Before buying always download the demo If you do get TH2 I'd be happy to work with you on setting up some patches. It's sorta fun once you get the hang of it!
Then again, my idea of relaxation is trying to program my ancient Digitech 2112 to sound DJENT
Posted by: bleez Sep 16 2014, 06:33 AM
I downloaded the TH2 full demo. I was actually following your thread about building a tone, it was really interesting but the demo has since run out. tbh I would have liked a bit longer with it. There was only a couple of things I had issues with, firstly - the tones I got with TH2 seemed to lack a bit of balls, they kinda sounded 'thin', very nice but thin. secondly - I could only get TH2 working within reaper as a VST. when I had it in standalone mode it kept crashing reaper.
That said both of these issues may well have been fixable with a bit more time and basically learning a bit more about it so I wasnt too worried about them but I would like to run the demo again. I could either buy TH2 or buy the extra model packs from pod farm. I need to give it a bit more thought 
I still have to say that I'd fully suggest TH2 which you can download as a demo. Before buying always download the demo
If you do get TH2 I'd be happy to work with you on setting up some patches. It's sorta fun once you get the hang of it!Then again, my idea of relaxation is trying to program my ancient Digitech 2112 to sound DJENT
Posted by: Sensible Jones Sep 16 2014, 03:40 PM
That's how you need to do it, as a VST. 'Stand alone' means you can open it on your desktop and just play through it without needing to open it in Reaper!
Posted by: bleez Sep 16 2014, 03:48 PM
fair enough
I thought it would be like my pod farm because I open that on the desktop and it still goes through reaper while in standalone mode. Still its good to know that th2 would be opened as a vst, next time I wont need to mess around trying to 'fix' it
Posted by: Sensible Jones Sep 17 2014, 04:13 PM
I thought it would be like my pod farm because I open that on the desktop and it still goes through reaper while in standalone mode. Still its good to know that th2 would be opened as a vst, next time I wont need to mess around trying to 'fix' it
I had the exact same thing with GR4!
Posted by: SirJamsalot Sep 22 2014, 06:15 PM
Seems like everyone has touched all the possibilities on this one!
My initial thought was your action/neck adjustment is killing you early, and secondly, magnets too close to the strings. I guess the best way to test that theory is to plug into an actual amp, and hit the note and let it ring til it dies - seem premature? if so, then one of those two is the cause - most likely neck setup. Another good guague, is to hit the note, and bend it - does the bend kill the note? if so, definitely a setup issue.
But, more knowledgeable people than I have already chimed in, so goooood luckkkkk!
Posted by: Todd Simpson Sep 23 2014, 10:31 PM
Did you use TWO guitar cabs or one? If you only use one, it's a bit to bright Also, did you use my posted preset as a starting point or build from scratch? The stack of parametric eq at the end are a bit part of the tone so tweaking there is key
I'd say get TH2. I had the POD XT with every model pack they ever released. The clean tones were great!! The high gain tones were CRAP imho. Too much FIZZ.
I'm not sure if you can use my custom patches on the DEMO but I'm sure you can use them on the full version. Let us know what you decide If you have any questions about TH2 please feel free to shoot me a PM so I'm sure to see it!! They don't pay me anything, neither does IBANEZ!! But I'm a big fan of both and I share the things that work well as I spent wands of time trying everything before I stick on a product
That said both of these issues may well have been fixable with a bit more time and basically learning a bit more about it so I wasnt too worried about them but I would like to run the demo again. I could either buy TH2 or buy the extra model packs from pod farm. I need to give it a bit more thought
Posted by: bleez Sep 23 2014, 11:25 PM
you can use custom patches with the demo, its actually quite a good demo. I downloaded your mega metal bank and your VH patch, they imported fine.
I think I was using 2 cabs when following your 'build a tone' thread, It did feel like I was missing 'something' to beef it up. Im sure with a bit more experience I would know what to tweak to get it.
If I can stop spending my money on guitars I may well just buy TH2 because I did like the amount of scope it offered. I'll definitely be bugging you for tone info when I get it
Also, did you use my posted preset as a starting point or build from scratch? The stack of parametric eq at the end are a bit part of the tone so tweaking there is key I'd say get TH2. I had the POD XT with every model pack they ever released. The clean tones were great!! The high gain tones were CRAP imho. Too much FIZZ.
I'm not sure if you can use my custom patches on the DEMO but I'm sure you can use them on the full version. Let us know what you decide
If you have any questions about TH2 please feel free to shoot me a PM so I'm sure to see it!! They don't pay me anything, neither does IBANEZ!! But I'm a big fan of both and I share the things that work well as I spent wands of time trying everything before I stick on a product Posted by: Todd Simpson Sep 24 2014, 02:43 AM
Bug away Did you stack the four parametric eqs at the end? They are the secret sauce. I use each one to do something specific. They will let you put as much beef as you want on just about any patch but you gotta understand EQ just a bit to make it work. Also, TH2 supports TWO signal paths. I typically only use one. But you can use one path just for lower freq signals and then blend it in using the mixer at the end of the chain.
I think I was using 2 cabs when following your 'build a tone' thread, It did feel like I was missing 'something' to beef it up. Im sure with a bit more experience I would know what to tweak to get it.
If I can stop spending my money on guitars I may well just buy TH2 because I did like the amount of scope it offered. I'll definitely be bugging you for tone info when I get it
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