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Symphonic Choirs
David Wallimann
Aug 3 2007, 03:37 PM
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Hi there!
I was wondering if anyone of you ever used Easwest Quantum Leap Symphonic choirs?
Thinking about getting it, but it's very expensive...
Just wanted to know if you have any experience on it...

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Pavel
Aug 3 2007, 03:47 PM
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I only tried Miroslav Philarmonik choir. To be honest i don't think any samples can reproduce the real choir. And also you can't actually make a sample choir sing lyrics so basically it's all "ohhs" "ahhs" "uhhs" "mmmm" and similar stuff!

EDIT: just looked up on some website - it looks like these samples can actually sing words you want them too! Cool! But they are very expensive!

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This post has been edited by Pavel: Aug 3 2007, 03:50 PM


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David Wallimann
Aug 3 2007, 03:56 PM
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Yeah, I know...
Quantum Leap has been doing very high quality samples and is used in modst movies now..
But yeah.. Very expensive!
I'd love to have a "demo" of that... hehe...


QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 3 2007, 10:47 AM) *
I only tried Miroslav Philarmonik choir. To be honest i don't think any samples can reproduce the real choir. And also you can't actually make a sample choir sing lyrics so basically it's all "ohhs" "ahhs" "uhhs" "mmmm" and similar stuff!

EDIT: just looked up on some website - it looks like these samples can actually sing words you want them too! Cool! But they are very expensive!

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Saoirse O'Shea
Aug 3 2007, 04:03 PM
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Not tried the symphonic choir Walliman but Eastwest are usually pretty good.

If you want an alternate (which I use) have a look at Bela D.

I use the Diva and Giovani samples along with their articulation/phrase builder software (which either came free with Diva or is downloadable can't remember which) with NI Kontakt - with some effort you can build articulated phrases and stuff. (OK a lot effort but that's probably more to do with my lack of ability with samplers and the like rolleyes.gif ).

Also I believe that Vienna are making a choir sample set. Probably will be expensive but glorious.

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Gabriel Leopardi
Aug 3 2007, 05:16 PM
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Excelent topic! I also would like to have a good symphonic sampler... anyone knows which one is the best, and the most real? I know the one you named but I didn't try them.

gabriel.-

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David Wallimann
Aug 3 2007, 05:31 PM
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I wish these things were less expensive!

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Saoirse O'Shea
Aug 3 2007, 05:36 PM
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For accuracy and quality of the sample and recording Vienna (cube range) are generally taken to be top of the pile. Big but is the cube is very expensive and the entire orchestral library is something like 500G of data. So you would probably need to buy a new pc and stream the samples. Vienna generally tend to like Giga sampler and Kontakt. Cube is standalone and vst however.

Wonderful software but at a (huge) price.

Cheers,
Tony

if you can afford it and can wait for VSL to release it then I'd go for their symphonic choir when it's ready.

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Pavel
Aug 3 2007, 06:20 PM
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Don't take Vienna! I have it and it is totally useless because samples sound totally weird, they have some sound glitches, take enormous amount of RAM to run and Giga Studio crashes every 15 minutes.

I now use Miroslav Philarmonik - only 7.5GB of data and sounds are awesome. To me it's the most user friendly software out there with awesome sounding orchestra samples!

Here - check the samples:
http://www.philharmonik.com/Main.html?prod_MP
You can even download a demo of this and try!
Hope this helps!

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This post has been edited by Pavel: Aug 3 2007, 06:24 PM


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Kaneda
Aug 3 2007, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 3 2007, 07:20 PM) *
Don't take Vienna! I have it and it is totally useless because samples sound totally weird, they have some sound glitches, take enormous amount of RAM to run and Giga Studio crashes every 15 minutes.


Don't agree. Any glitches I have found have mostly been due to GigaStudio, which has always been a piece of crap - ever since version 1.

As soon as I'm done experimenting, I mostly use a set of samples converted to Kontakt format (currently, I always change it because I find something nicer) to do the final mix, because I don't trust GigaStudio. Never had any sound glitches.

Noone, to my mind, has surpassed VSL for brass (when complemented by SAM), percussion and especially symphonic strings and woodwinds. There are some techniques missing - there always are - but the sound quality, tone and presence, can't be beaten IMO. And I tried Miroslav, Garritan (although I do combine VSL with Garritan strings at times), Sonic Implants, EWQL etc.

Also be aware that VSL will require more work than many of the others in terms of mixing - reverb, equalization etc. They're made to be accurate and flexible, so they're very dry and unmixed by themselves.

On topic, I must say I'm not entirely convinced by the EWQL choirs, but it sounds quite good. For some pieces, where the choir doesn't play a really significant role but are more adding texture, and especially if it's called for to be dramatic (think film trailer choir), it sounds better than anything else I've heard, and could fool many a listener. But as soon as the choir gets a front stage appearance, in-phrase attacks are so inhuman and unmusical that it might as well be a Choir Ooh/Aah GM patch playing. And you can't tell your choir to sing each syllable clearly - i.e. don't expect the lyrics to be actually comprehensible smile.gif

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Pavel
Aug 3 2007, 09:08 PM
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Kaneda: you know it's like - a guy buys an Ibanez, comes home and finds out that the tremolo is faulty and he'll never buy Ibanez again and no one in the world will be able to prove him wrong!

I had Vienna samples and i tried to make them work for me for around a month but i just couldn't stand that shitty samples organization, naming of sample groups, names of techniques. Giga Studio made using of those even worse. I must say i really had sound glitches in samples.

So i found out about Miroslav, heard the samples and i totally liked it. I played the samples to my father - who is orchestra conductor, and he liked them also so i got them and i never saw better organized samples. Really easy to find all you need, easy to use EQ, effects...

I guess it's all about self-experience! I had shitty experience with Vienna and i didn't like them! But i love Miroslav! smile.gif

Nice discussion btw. smile.gif

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This post has been edited by Pavel: Aug 3 2007, 09:09 PM


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David Wallimann
Aug 3 2007, 09:14 PM
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Very cool discussion..
I tried a demo of Miroslav but the choir isn't gopnna work for me...
I already have an orchestral set that I like...
All I need is some good choirs..
I heard that Eastwest (www.soundsonline.com) are gonna launch soon a system to let you buy only the sounds you want..
That would be really cool.
Imagine being able to buy only teh stuff you need..
If you guys hear of anything cheaper and good let me know!
I need it to finish my album...

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Pavel
Aug 3 2007, 09:19 PM
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Yeah Miroslav doesn't have a customizable choir! But orchestra samples fit me good!

I don't think you'll find cheaper samples with customizable choir! But anyway - good luck finding it! smile.gif

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Kaneda
Aug 3 2007, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (Pavel @ Aug 3 2007, 10:08 PM) *
Kaneda: you know it's like - a guy buys an Ibanez, comes home and finds out that the tremolo is faulty and he'll never buy Ibanez again and no one in the world will be able to prove him wrong!


Yeah, I know smile.gif Just adding the opposite experience to the spectrum, not trying to convince you they're good wink.gif

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Saoirse O'Shea
Aug 4 2007, 01:17 AM
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As I remember Pavel is right that there was an issue between VSL and Giga a while back. I think it was when Giga V3 was released - issue apparently lay with Tascam though rather than VSL - might be what caused the problem for you Pavel.

With all big sample libraries the file structure is always an issue and to some extent it can come down to what you get used to and/or how you relate to the directory structure, file naming and so on. With VSL even a relatively small library will contain multiple samples for different articulations and so on. It's one of the things I like in Kontakt is that I find the whole database set up etc easier to use then say Halion - don't know about Giga as I've never used it. Also in Kontakt if you stuff up writing the samples to the correct file its possible to rebuild the database tree reasonably easily. What I'd seen of the Miroslav is that the front end is much better/easier to get around than VSL etc. Also, though I might be wrong, the Miroslav isn't recorded entirely dry - there is some concert hall ambiance which adds to the samples sound nice and lush.

For the price of the full libraries (orchestral or choir) check out any demo's and if you can go and play with the alternatives in a music shop. Ultimately though you do tend to get what you pay for. EWQL Platinum and VSL Cube are expensive for a reason - it costs to record to this level.

Trivial bit (perhpas tongue.gif ) - like Kaneda I prefer VSL as the samples are not eq'ed/reverbed or chorused etc. Just recorded dry so that you can add reverb or whatever as you want. (Think SAM/Truestrike do the same as VSL here, Garritan don't and nor does, to my knowledge, Chris Stein.)

Cheers,
Tony

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lycanite
Aug 4 2007, 02:12 AM
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Hi, Ive had symphonic choirs for 2 years now and composed/recorded many songs using it.

It has a program called word builder with it, where you can type in what you want the choirs to sing and they will sing it.
This works phonetically by typing a word as you would pronounce it like "SYMPHONIC" would be typed like "Sim Fon iK"
Capital letters enhance the pronouniation of the letter and you would play each syllable with each seperate strike of the keyboard so overall you have full control over what the choirs sing through your songs.

This opened up a world of possibilties for me and my song writing but obviously does take a while to get used to and once your bored of getting the boys choir to say every rude word under the sun (which actually never gets boring) it proves to be a great workhorse in your studio.

I totally agree that this software is expensive and I ummed and arrred for many months, but the quality of the samples ( all close miked - stage miked - and ambient miked) and the possibilities of word builder makes it worth the payout.

Bear in mind that this will only be worth its money if you are to use it in your songs because other than that it is a very expensive giggle!

Hope this helps

By the way Hi GMCers my name is Lycanite

Thanks
Lycanite

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Andrew Cockburn
Aug 4 2007, 04:16 AM
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Hi Lycanite, thanks for the info smile.gif

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Pavel
Aug 4 2007, 10:07 AM
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Welcome Lycanite! Nice post! And definitely it's not a software for fooling around! I think you only need it if you are like Wallimann - recording a selling album! smile.gif

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Saoirse O'Shea
Aug 4 2007, 11:34 AM
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Thanks for the info Lycanite - and welcome.

I use my choirs and orchestra more to supply background ambience/texture as, as yet, I don't find them quite realistic enough to provide vocals that are forward in a mix. Mixes I use them on though are more to do with short recorded pieces for ads/incidental background music (not elevator though) and stuff like that rather than full albums smile.gif .

Now I believe that Celemony have made a choir/vocal sample set for use with Melodyne 139Euros each volume. If you already have Melodyne Studio or Cre8 could be well worth looking at - or if you are thinking about getting the rather wonderful Studio biggrin.gif .

For anyone who doesn't want to go the multi-sample route there are a couple of synths based on formant technology that can do vocal type patches, ie Formant technology; vocaloid and Concretefx.

I tried one (vocaloid) several years ago and to be honest found it pretty hard to get anything that didn't sound like a mad sci-fi robot. Then again I'm not great at programming synths anyway sad.gif and the software has probably improved a lot by now. Could be worth a look but probably more single vocalists rather than choirs...

Cheers,
Tony

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David Wallimann
Aug 4 2007, 03:33 PM
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Thanks for all your great suggestions..
I think it all comes down to this:
Pay a high price for high quality...
Anyone wants to make a donatin?
Haha!

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Caelumamittendum
Mar 30 2009, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Kaneda @ Aug 3 2007, 07:04 PM) *
On topic, I must say I'm not entirely convinced by the EWQL choirs, but it sounds quite good. For some pieces, where the choir doesn't play a really significant role but are more adding texture, and especially if it's called for to be dramatic (think film trailer choir), it sounds better than anything else I've heard, and could fool many a listener. But as soon as the choir gets a front stage appearance, in-phrase attacks are so inhuman and unmusical that it might as well be a Choir Ooh/Aah GM patch playing. And you can't tell your choir to sing each syllable clearly - i.e. don't expect the lyrics to be actually comprehensible smile.gif


I just searched for this topic, and to my knowledge, this is a bit incorrect, Kaneda, though I'm no expert. You can get your choir to sing very precisily pronounced words with the word builder and Votox language. But it's a matter of really knowing this. There's a youtube video that explains some of this. Really worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr_4Ov3jAq4&fmt=18

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Mar 30 2009, 01:00 AM


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