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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Determining How Fast You Play?

Posted by: SirJamsalot May 10 2010, 02:43 AM

What's a good way to determine how fast you are in terms of picking speed? Set a metrinome to a certain speed and then do chromatic scales - 4 notes per string? or 3 note per string scales? If someone were to ask me how fast my playing is, I wouldn't know how to reply that answer :/

Posted by: lcsdds May 10 2010, 03:01 AM

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 10 2010, 02:43 AM) *
What's a good way to determine how fast you are in terms of picking speed? Set a metrinome to a certain speed and then do chromatic scales - 4 notes per string? or 3 note per string scales? If someone were to ask me how fast my playing is, I wouldn't know how to reply that answer :/

Thats a tough question......depends on the lick IMO. I can pick fast on one string. Not so fast on a six string run using AP with 3nps scales and even slower using 2nps scales and AP. IMO if you can handle 16th notes at 200 bpm no matter the lick you will be able to pretty much play whatever you want. That's my 2 cents anyways....... smile.gif

Posted by: SirJamsalot May 10 2010, 03:13 AM

Perhaps there is a lesson that serves as a good indicator whereby you can you set your metrinome and if you can play it at that speed, that's a good indicator of how fast in general you can play?

Posted by: Gitarrero May 10 2010, 07:34 AM

I'd go for an alternate picking exercise with scales like this one from Lian:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Metal_Patterns_1/

Or you can try to master this lesson...:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/extreme-neo-classic/

Posted by: Staffy May 10 2010, 07:39 AM

Who cares? Speed has nothing to do with music. I guess that if You can play like this guy, the answer would be: "Fast enough...."

//Staffay


Posted by: SirJamsalot May 10 2010, 07:51 AM

QUOTE (Staffy @ May 9 2010, 11:39 PM) *
Who cares? Speed has nothing to do with music. I guess that if You can play like this guy, the answer would be: "Fast enough...."

//Staffay



I'm not trying to equate speed with musicality - but as long as there are 1/4 notes, there will always be 1/8 notes tucked between them, so I'd like to be able to play the 1/8 notes as well.

Besides, I'm curious where I'm at. Just wondering what a good way is to find out.

And that guy - 300 bpm - the action on that guitar must be touching the frets - you can't see the strings move, let a lone his fingers rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl May 10 2010, 08:02 AM

So many factors come into play here - anyone (even without practicing ) can do something extremely fast. Depending on how much you have prepared yourself it is going to sound more or less good (if you haven't practiced it will obviously sound horrible) - but who is to say when it sounds "good enough" to qualify as a speed which you master?

I think your best bet is to record a shred lick which you are comfortable with, upload it here so people can say if they like the sound of your technique or not:

* If you upload something and people think it's not clean enough you can probably not deem yourself as fast

* If you upload something which people consider clean and somewhat shreddy...then you are fast, but how fast you are will always depend on who you ask. Unless we establish a speed committee at GMC of course! cool.gif


Posted by: Staffy May 10 2010, 08:06 AM

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 10 2010, 08:51 AM) *
I'm not trying to equate speed with musicality - but as long as there are 1/4 notes, there will always be 1/8 notes tucked between them, so I'd like to be able to play the 1/8 notes as well.

Besides, I'm curious where I'm at. Just wondering what a good way is to find out.

And that guy - 300 bpm - the action on that guitar must be touching the frets - you can't see the strings move, let a lone his fingers rolleyes.gif


I dont really know how to measure it, the right hand is easy to "Guitar Speed Trainer", where You can measure Your actual speed and progress by playing the exercises included.

Nah, this guy is insane. But I havent heard him play anything musical.... (yet)

//Staffay

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 10 2010, 08:51 AM) *
I'm not trying to equate speed with musicality - but as long as there are 1/4 notes, there will always be 1/8 notes tucked between them, so I'd like to be able to play the 1/8 notes as well.

Besides, I'm curious where I'm at. Just wondering what a good way is to find out.

And that guy - 300 bpm - the action on that guitar must be touching the frets - you can't see the strings move, let a lone his fingers rolleyes.gif


I dont really know how to measure it, the right hand is easy to measure with a metronome though. Another way to measure will be to do the lessons here and see what level You are on according the 10-point system. There is also a proggie called "Guitar Speed Trainer", where You can measure Your actual speed and progress by playing the exercises included.

Nah, this guy is insane. But I havent heard him play anything musical.... (yet)

//Staffay


EDIT: I pressed the wrong buttons in the first post....

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ May 10 2010, 09:02 AM) *
Unless we establish a speed committee at GMC of course! cool.gif


Good idea Kris. I'm voting You for director!!!! biggrin.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: SirJamsalot May 10 2010, 09:12 AM

ok, thanks for the replies. why do I feel like it was a stupid question? dry.gif


Posted by: Kristofer Dahl May 10 2010, 09:16 AM

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 10 2010, 10:12 AM) *
ok, thanks for the replies. why do I feel like it was a stupid question? dry.gif


I think it was a very good question - many people probably wonder about this. It's a natural thing to think about as you are working on improving your chops/speed.

Guitarists who have already gone through their chops-building period will often say "focus on the music instead" - but to play music you need chops. How much chops you need depends on your musical preferences.

Posted by: maharzan May 10 2010, 10:22 AM

Just trying chromatic really sucks. i wouldn't do that. For me musicality is more of scale variations with few chromatic notes. As a starter, I would just try a major scale and set up a beat and try all 4th, 8th, 16ths, triplets to 32nds.. or just set up a metronome and try 16ths. It sounds more melodious than chromatic. Its more practical as well.

Posted by: lcsdds May 10 2010, 03:33 PM

I think it was a very good question. I still say that if you can play 16ths @ 200bpm thats all the speed you'll need. My goals have been like this.

16ths@ 200bpm any technique

quintuplets (5 notes per beat) @ 160bpm any technique

16th triplets (six notes per beat) @ 130bpm any technique

This is a goal I will probably never obtain but it is something to shoot for and a good gauge of where you are technically. I'm looking forward to the day where I can play the exact same lick using legato, AP, Tapping, or a combo of these at the exact same tempo. Now if I am playing a fast lick I usually have to pick a technique that I can play the lick at that speed. So my technique or lack thereof is dictating what technique to use. The goal is to let your ears determine what the music needs and then pick a technique to obtain the sound you are going for.

That was probably all jibberish but its early.......... smile.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn May 10 2010, 04:29 PM

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 10 2010, 02:43 AM) *
What's a good way to determine how fast you are in terms of picking speed? Set a metrinome to a certain speed and then do chromatic scales - 4 notes per string? or 3 note per string scales? If someone were to ask me how fast my playing is, I wouldn't know how to reply that answer :/

This has been my nemesis-A.P.
so i've developed a three note per string scale-The notes inside the phrase are =16
set your metronome at a gentle pace for you -the click will be every note you play
every fourth note will be a beat-(A different sounding click)
The different sound will be the start of your counting/playing
you will count1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4
you will be counting 4 but playing three and hearing a click on every note you play
so every thing together has to line up perfectly to restart the phrase
I think this has retrained my ear to hear a perfect timing between each note
Before I would play with a slight fluctuation when playing and it has never been close to perfect until i came up with this
hope it helps
Speed comes with perfection ,but perfection does not come with speed
I also think that i'm only as fast as i play my most difficult peice -cleanly

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic May 10 2010, 04:32 PM

Its a really good question. Now what can come handy is writing a practice log.
For example : Been practicing ex. 1 at 120bpm in 16th notes. If you do that for all exercises not only you will have a clear indicator how your speed has increased over period of time, but you'll know how fast-which things your can play approximately.

Now question : Am I fast enough?

That is really individual, my guess would be if you feel you can't play things you WANT to play because of technique (you can't do it fast enough) then you are not there. But if you feel comfortable and not hindered by technique for executing music that is inside you (even if playing is really slow) then you are indeed fast enough! smile.gif


Posted by: Todd Simpson May 19 2010, 01:40 AM

It's a really valid question actually smile.gif Great replies from Kris. It's all relative of course in terms of "fast". But if you are just wanting to clock yourself to determine your progress. Pick a given scale or pattern and clock yourself with a metronome. Video yourself doing it. Post it to youtube and here and you can get some great feedback. Also, you can see how you are progressing over time.

Todd

Posted by: SirJamsalot May 19 2010, 04:06 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ May 18 2010, 05:40 PM) *
It's a really valid question actually smile.gif Great replies from Kris. It's all relative of course in terms of "fast". But if you are just wanting to clock yourself to determine your progress. Pick a given scale or pattern and clock yourself with a metronome. Video yourself doing it. Post it to youtube and here and you can get some great feedback. Also, you can see how you are progressing over time.

Todd


By "fast" I was trying to get a personal mathematical metric - I know fast is subjective - it's more of a curiosity about my own speed in terms of bpm. Perhaps you can help me with the math. Let's say I play the following scale up and down to a metrinome set at 120 bpm, with the 4th note landing on each beat, would that be considered playing a scale at 120 bpm? Is there a mathematical equation to apply to just put a number to? In that video of the guy doing 240 bpm of the butterfly thingy, how'd they come up with the 240 bpm is all I was asking.

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-2

groovy.

Posted by: Azzaboi May 19 2010, 04:55 AM

That video at 320BPM is insane, but doesn't look as amazing as it should. He makes it look too easy!

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jun 6 2010, 11:46 AM

I like this question very very much. If someone plays 4-tones-per strings chromatic patterns at 200 bps, that is NOT 200!
If you play tremolo picking on one string on 200bps, that is not 200bps.
However, it would be good to include various types of picking in this question.
How fast do you play pentatonics, diatonic, sweep picking, alternate picking arpeggios?
For each of these question answers should be given, and then, by some strange mathematical equation we could determine average speed.
Maybe we should pick one classical piece as a reference point?

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Jun 6 2010, 12:18 PM

I agree with practically everyone here. As said, it really depends on the lick. smile.gif In my opinion, some basic patterns can give a quite good image on how fast one plays, for example two-notes-per-string pentatonic patterns (pentatonic workshop) or three-notes-per-string church modes patterns (modal madness). But I don't think that's the whole truth. Horizontal paterns, vertical patterns - let alone string skipping, hybrid picking...

A complete image on speed is practically impossible to give. But certain techniques, ceartain patterns... they can and actually should be measured if one relies on speed. This is a fun discussion, but since it is such a difficult question, I'm glad everyone still focuses on the music and not the speed. biggrin.gif

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jun 6 2010, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jun 6 2010, 03:46 AM) *
I like this question very very much. If someone plays 4-tones-per strings chromatic patterns at 200 bps, that is NOT 200!


Then what is it?
I'm scratching my head here wondering why no one wants to touch this topic with a ten foot pole.

I think I stated the question clearly -
QUOTE
Let's say I play the following scale up and down to a metrinome set at 120 bpm, with the 4th note landing on each beat, would that be considered playing a scale at 120 bpm?


It seems the conclusion of this thread is that there is no mathematical equation that can tell us this because it's music man and we're not interested in speed - only music!

I give up. I love you guys, but this is too touchy of a topic to continue.
biggrin.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jun 6 2010, 05:56 PM

Who cares, as long as it is good music biggrin.gif

If you are a fast player it will show in your slowest licks just how good you are. But speed is very good, it's always good to have fast runs and licks at your disposal. There is always a situation where you can pull it off and make it sound good. Of course, the overall playing quality will not depend on that particular lick, it will depend on the sum of all that's being played, how it's being played etc..

Posted by: Ben Higgins Jun 6 2010, 06:39 PM

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 19 2010, 04:06 AM) *
By "fast" I was trying to get a personal mathematical metric - I know fast is subjective - it's more of a curiosity about my own speed in terms of bpm. Perhaps you can help me with the math. Let's say I play the following scale up and down to a metrinome set at 120 bpm, with the 4th note landing on each beat, would that be considered playing a scale at 120 bpm? Is there a mathematical equation to apply to just put a number to? In that video of the guy doing 240 bpm of the butterfly thingy, how'd they come up with the 240 bpm is all I was asking.

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-2

groovy.


Hi, I think you're question is perfectly valid and I think I understand what you're trying to ask.

4 notes to 1 click of the metronome.. say it was at 120bpm.. then yes,I would say I was playing 16th notes at 120bpm. If I played that same lick to my limit and say it was somehere like 180bpm.. then I'd say that's how fast I could play, 180bpm.

As you already know, playing 16th note triplets mean we end up with different metronome speeds and I don't know how to sub divide the metronome speeds correctly. For example, if I knew I could play 16th notes at 180bpm, I wouldn't know how to find the corresponding metronome setting to then play triplets (but picking at the same speed). Does anybody else know what I mean and how to work that out ?

But, the way I've come to understand speed, through reading countless testemonies of different players and guitar mags etc.. is this is a good ballpark figure.

16th notes: over 160bpm is getting good. 180bpm -200 is fast. The likes of John Petrucci, Zakk Wylde, Paul Gilbert all have their limit around 200, and just over. That's about as far as most 'normal' people's limit can get. But most of us would be happy with anything in the 185-195 area.

16th note triplets: anything from 130 -150bpm. 140bpm - 150bpm is really killer, but it is possible.. as Muris has shown us :-)

But that's the rough guidelines.. if you're doing 180-200bpm on 16th notes, that would translate at around 130-150bpm on triplets !

I hope that makes some sense ??? sad.gif

Take care

Ben

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Jun 6 2010, 09:50 PM

Ben, if you want to turn 16th notes to triplets, you just multiply the speed by 2/3. And vice versa, if you want to know how much is the 16th note tempo for your 16th note triplets, you just multiply the tempo by 3/2.

For example, we have 16th triplets at 120 bpm. We multiply it by 3/2 and get 16th notes at 180 bpm.
And so on and on.

Hope this helped. smile.gif

- Kristian

Posted by: Staffy Jun 6 2010, 10:15 PM

I've already commented some in this thread, but I just want to add some thoughts here about speed.
In my opinion (from a improvisers point of view) You have enough speed when You can play in a tempo freely, eg. without pre-defined licks or runs, You should just be able to play what the ear tells You to play without any complications.
For instance, I could probably play some 16'th note triplets in 130 BPM - but then I have to practice the phrase and kind of plan it several bars in advance to be able to use. In 115 BPM, I can play the most I want to, and in 90 BPM I can play anything I want to.

So the conclusion of this is really: Do You want to be a player fast as lightning with pre-defined chops or do You want to be a great improvisor?
Of course there is no sharp line between these ultimates, most players use both approaches.

Just my 2 cents.

//Staffay

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jun 7 2010, 01:02 AM

FINALLY - an answer! Thank you!!!!!!
You get the prize!
+10
award!
phew... I was beginning to think that math and the laws of physics no longer apply to music!

cool.gif

CAN WE GET A STICKY ON THIS ANSWER!? lol.



QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jun 6 2010, 10:39 AM) *
Hi, I think you're question is perfectly valid and I think I understand what you're trying to ask.

4 notes to 1 click of the metronome.. say it was at 120bpm.. then yes,I would say I was playing 16th notes at 120bpm. If I played that same lick to my limit and say it was somehere like 180bpm.. then I'd say that's how fast I could play, 180bpm.

As you already know, playing 16th note triplets mean we end up with different metronome speeds and I don't know how to sub divide the metronome speeds correctly. For example, if I knew I could play 16th notes at 180bpm, I wouldn't know how to find the corresponding metronome setting to then play triplets (but picking at the same speed). Does anybody else know what I mean and how to work that out ?

But, the way I've come to understand speed, through reading countless testemonies of different players and guitar mags etc.. is this is a good ballpark figure.

16th notes: over 160bpm is getting good. 180bpm -200 is fast. The likes of John Petrucci, Zakk Wylde, Paul Gilbert all have their limit around 200, and just over. That's about as far as most 'normal' people's limit can get. But most of us would be happy with anything in the 185-195 area.

16th note triplets: anything from 130 -150bpm. 140bpm - 150bpm is really killer, but it is possible.. as Muris has shown us :-)

But that's the rough guidelines.. if you're doing 180-200bpm on 16th notes, that would translate at around 130-150bpm on triplets !

I hope that makes some sense ??? sad.gif

Take care

Ben

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jun 7 2010, 08:21 AM

QUOTE (Kristian Hyvarinen @ Jun 6 2010, 01:50 PM) *
Ben, if you want to turn 16th notes to triplets, you just multiply the speed by 2/3. And vice versa, if you want to know how much is the 16th note tempo for your 16th note triplets, you just multiply the tempo by 3/2.

For example, we have 16th triplets at 120 bpm. We multiply it by 3/2 and get 16th notes at 180 bpm.
And so on and on.

Hope this helped. smile.gif

- Kristian


Thanks Kristian! I am going to learn this stuff one day!
Christian A.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Jun 7 2010, 09:13 AM

QUOTE (Kristian Hyvarinen @ Jun 6 2010, 09:50 PM) *
Ben, if you want to turn 16th notes to triplets, you just multiply the speed by 2/3. And vice versa, if you want to know how much is the 16th note tempo for your 16th note triplets, you just multiply the tempo by 3/2.

For example, we have 16th triplets at 120 bpm. We multiply it by 3/2 and get 16th notes at 180 bpm.
And so on and on.

Hope this helped. smile.gif

- Kristian


Kristian, thank you so much for telling me this... I've always wondered how to work it out ! smile.gif

Best regards,

Ben

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jun 7 2010, 09:59 AM

o.k. so I'm catching on, but I want to make sure I have this right. I stink at tabs, so I made a simple audio file with a drum backing set at 160 bpm and then did chromatic scales on 2 strings. Before the end of every bar (I think) I did a total of 8 notes then on the following bar I slid up 1/2 tone and started over.

Is this considered playing at 160bpm? Please don't flame me for going on about this. This is an honest question about understanding what picking at a given bpm sounds like - I understand a little theory - I'm memorizing my Keys and the notes on the staff by sight - I'm just trying to tie what I see on the staff to the metrinome in some sort of concrete - hands on way - I'm not trying to delve into a discussion whether or not speed matters!

 160bpm.mp3 ( 352.88K ) : 140


Thanks for being patient with me!
Christian A.


QUOTE (jstcrsn @ May 10 2010, 08:29 AM) *
This has been my nemesis-A.P.
so i've developed a three note per string scale-The notes inside the phrase are =16
set your metronome at a gentle pace for you -the click will be every note you play
every fourth note will be a beat-(A different sounding click)
The different sound will be the start of your counting/playing
you will count1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4
you will be counting 4 but playing three and hearing a click on every note you play
so every thing together has to line up perfectly to restart the phrase
I think this has retrained my ear to hear a perfect timing between each note
Before I would play with a slight fluctuation when playing and it has never been close to perfect until i came up with this
hope it helps
Speed comes with perfection ,but perfection does not come with speed
I also think that i'm only as fast as i play my most difficult peice -cleanly


jstcrsn - sorry I missed this... thread grew faster than I expected - thanks for this! I play with the metrinome (drum machine) regularly so I'm pretty good at sqeezing notes in, I'm just terrible at theory is all - I can tell you I have my metrinome set at blah blah - but I had no idea how fast that is in terms of notes played huh.gif So I'm trying to get my little pea brain wrapped around the concept is all. At this point, I've pretty much embarrassed myself so I figure why not go all the way and be the class moron so anyone else who doesn't know won't have the suffer pangs of embarrassment of asking since I did it here!

Christian A.

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jun 7 2010, 02:12 PM

@SirJamsalot.
I wanted to say that we cant' proclaim 4-tones-per-string at 200 as general speed, because it's easiest pattern. Same person can hardly play pentatonic 2-notes-per-string pattern at 200.
It is best to take piece that combines all picking styles and take it as reference point.
Chain is strong as its weakest link! smile.gif

Posted by: Ben Higgins Jun 7 2010, 02:44 PM

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Jun 7 2010, 09:59 AM) *
o.k. so I'm catching on, but I want to make sure I have this right. I stink at tabs, so I made a simple audio file with a drum backing set at 160 bpm and then did chromatic scales on 2 strings. Before the end of every bar (I think) I did a total of 8 notes then on the following bar I slid up 1/2 tone and started over.

Is this considered playing at 160bpm? Please don't flame me for going on about this. This is an honest question about understanding what picking at a given bpm sounds like - I understand a little theory - I'm memorizing my Keys and the notes on the staff by sight - I'm just trying to tie what I see on the staff to the metrinome in some sort of concrete - hands on way - I'm not trying to delve into a discussion whether or not speed matters!

 160bpm.mp3 ( 352.88K ) : 140


Thanks for being patient with me!
Christian A.




jstcrsn - sorry I missed this... thread grew faster than I expected - thanks for this! I play with the metrinome (drum machine) regularly so I'm pretty good at sqeezing notes in, I'm just terrible at theory is all - I can tell you I have my metrinome set at blah blah - but I had no idea how fast that is in terms of notes played huh.gif So I'm trying to get my little pea brain wrapped around the concept is all. At this point, I've pretty much embarrassed myself so I figure why not go all the way and be the class moron so anyone else who doesn't know won't have the suffer pangs of embarrassment of asking since I did it here!

Christian A.


Hi Christian,

To my ear, yes.. you're playing 16th notes at 160bpm. That's the way I, and every guitar mag I've ever read, would accept it. If you're playing 4 notes to every click.. that's generally accepted as the bpm. ( Of course you could also half the bpm from 160 to 80, but still be playing sixteenth notes.. and the click would occur every 8 notes then.. but people generally don't use that as the true bpm. )

The drum machine threw me off there as I was expecting a metronome, haha... the only difference is because it's an actual beat, the snare hit occurs on the 2nd beat, rather than hearing a metronome click on the 1st beat. But it makes no difference, it's still 160bpm... so yeah, you're getting there I think ! Hope we've been able to help in one way or another smile.gif

Ben

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jun 7 2010, 04:43 PM

QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jun 7 2010, 06:12 AM) *
@SirJamsalot.
I wanted to say that we cant' proclaim 4-tones-per-string at 200 as general speed, because it's easiest pattern. Same person can hardly play pentatonic 2-notes-per-string pattern at 200.
It is best to take piece that combines all picking styles and take it as reference point.
Chain is strong as its weakest link! smile.gif


understood - thanks. All l was asking was what does it sound like to the ear. It's more of a theory question.

grooovy,
Christian A.

QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jun 7 2010, 06:44 AM) *
Hi Christian,

To my ear, yes.. you're playing 16th notes at 160bpm. That's the way I, and every guitar mag I've ever read, would accept it. If you're playing 4 notes to every click.. that's generally accepted as the bpm. ( Of course you could also half the bpm from 160 to 80, but still be playing sixteenth notes.. and the click would occur every 8 notes then.. but people generally don't use that as the true bpm. )

The drum machine threw me off there as I was expecting a metronome, haha... the only difference is because it's an actual beat, the snare hit occurs on the 2nd beat, rather than hearing a metronome click on the 1st beat. But it makes no difference, it's still 160bpm... so yeah, you're getting there I think ! Hope we've been able to help in one way or another smile.gif

Ben


O.k - I understand it now. Thanks everyone for your input. I can now put this info under my belt of understanding.

Cheers!
Christian A.

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