Out Of Tune When Bending
gibsonmatte
Feb 1 2010, 12:01 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 152
Joined: 28-January 08
From: Malmö, Sweden
Hi,

I just recently bought a new guitar based on the low price and the fact that it looked really cool. I realize that the guitar is somewhat "budget" in terms of performance and whatnot. But it still looks cool and that's good enough for now smile.gif

However I have realized one thing that absolutely drives me crazy when playing it. When bending a tone it actually gets a little out of tune. I realize that this is due to the trem system but it's not ok in any way to get that out of tune while bending. I have seen several videos where this problem is highlighted and the solution seems to be to insert a small piece of wood preventing the trem to "compensate" when bending.

"out of tune" demo:
Hold the 12th fret on the 2nd string and the 15th fret on the 3rd string. bend the 15th fret on the 3rd string to like 17th and only pick the 12th fret on the 2nd string. While bending (the 15th to 17th) I hear that the 12th fret gets a little out of tune.

So, my question is are there anyone out there how has done this or have experienced the "out of tune" thing?

Thanks for any feedback!

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
My Last FM page
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sted
Feb 1 2010, 12:23 PM
Learning Rock Star
Posts: 1.758
Joined: 13-April 08
From: Merseyside, UK
yeah, dodgy trems are a nightmare for this, stretched trem spring or just badly set up could be the culprit, or it could just be a crap trem (Especially if its a no name FR copy or something).
You can either screw the trem screws right in to get the bridge flat against the body (Not workable with FR to be honest but works on my strat) or block it off completely using a block of wood or a bespoke unit such as a "Tremel-no" (Google it!).

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gibsonmatte
Feb 1 2010, 12:28 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 152
Joined: 28-January 08
From: Malmö, Sweden
Thanks sted!

The "Tremel-no" seems awesome! A bit easier than a piece of wood I guess smile.gif

The trem btw is an Edge III and the guitar is an Ibanez RG350DX.

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
My Last FM page
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Staffy
Feb 1 2010, 01:14 PM
Learning Tone Master
Posts: 2.294
Joined: 18-June 09
From: Genarp, Sweden
I agree to what You say here Sted, but imo. using a tremol-no or block the trem takes away some of the beauties with really having a trem. to grab whenever You need it. The combination light gauge/FR is not a good one imo. and therefore I'm using just standard strat trems or Wilkinsons at the moment. I think the trick here is to intonate the bends instead - eg. You must learn the instrument You play and adjust the bends by ear while You are playing....

//Staffay

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------


Guitars: Ibanez AM-200, Ibanez GB-10, Fender Stratocaster Classic Player, Warmouth Custom Built, Suhr Classic Strat, Gibson Les Paul Standard 2003, Ibanez steel-string
Amps: Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Marshall JMP 2103, AER 60
Effects: BOSS DD-20, Danelectro Trans. Overdrive, TC-Electronics G-Major, Dunlop Wah-wah, Original SansAmp, BOSS DD-2
Music by Staffy can be found at: Staffay at MySpace
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gibsonmatte
Feb 1 2010, 01:40 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 152
Joined: 28-January 08
From: Malmö, Sweden
QUOTE (Staffy @ Feb 1 2010, 01:14 PM) *
I agree to what You say here Sted, but imo. using a tremol-no or block the trem takes away some of the beauties with really having a trem. to grab whenever You need it. The combination light gauge/FR is not a good one imo. and therefore I'm using just standard strat trems or Wilkinsons at the moment. I think the trick here is to intonate the bends instead - eg. You must learn the instrument You play and adjust the bends by ear while You are playing....

//Staffay


Hi and thanks for the input!
However one thing that I don't fully understand is:
"You must learn the instrument You play and adjust the bends by ear while You are playing...."
It is not the actual tone that I'm bending that gets out of tune. It's the other tone (the 12th fret on the 2nd string in my first example). Since this tone isn't bended I'm a little unsure how to "play" or "learn" the instrument to avoid this. If I do/play the exact same on one of my Gibsons the tone is flawless and doesn't get out of tune, so the problem should be connected to the trem system, or not?

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
My Last FM page
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sensible Jones
Feb 1 2010, 02:49 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 7.277
Joined: 2-January 09
From: London-ish. UK.
QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Feb 1 2010, 11:28 AM) *
The trem btw is an Edge III and the guitar is an Ibanez RG350DX.

I also have one of these and initially had the same trouble.
The 'problem' is because it's a 'floating trem'. When you bend the string you are pulling the Trem and slackening the other strings, making them sound flat. What you need to do is this... when bending a string and wanting to play another in unison you must bend the other string you want to play to bring it up to correct pitch. It sounds complicated but you'll soon get used to doing it naturally!
I'm sure it's mentioned in one of Pavels old lessons somewhere!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
I'd rather have a full Bottle in front of me than a full Frontal Lobotomy!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jafomatic
Feb 1 2010, 02:59 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 1.049
Joined: 6-May 09
From: Austin, TX
Solution: hipshot tremsetter.

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
::jafomatic


http://jafomatic.net/tunes/ <-- Here lies the master collection of my collaboration and other improvisation recordings.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gibsonmatte
Feb 1 2010, 04:02 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 152
Joined: 28-January 08
From: Malmö, Sweden
QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 1 2010, 02:59 PM) *


Again thanks for all the input in this matter!

Since my skills in drilling, soldering and stuff like that is close to zero I think I will have to go with inserting a small piece of wood smile.gif

QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Feb 1 2010, 02:49 PM) *
I also have one of these and initially had the same trouble.
The 'problem' is because it's a 'floating trem'. When you bend the string you are pulling the Trem and slackening the other strings, making them sound flat. What you need to do is this... when bending a string and wanting to play another in unison you must bend the other string you want to play to bring it up to correct pitch. It sounds complicated but you'll soon get used to doing it naturally!
I'm sure it's mentioned in one of Pavels old lessons somewhere!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


I'll be sure to check Pavels lessons!

Let's say you want a open string to ring while bending, then you're lost smile.gif

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
My Last FM page
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sensible Jones
Feb 1 2010, 04:06 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 7.277
Joined: 2-January 09
From: London-ish. UK.
QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Feb 1 2010, 03:02 PM) *
I'll be sure to check Pavels lessons!

Let's say you want a open string to ring while bending, then you're lost smile.gif

The only way I can think of to achieve it with open strings would be to pull up on the Whammy Bar to raise the open strings accordingly!
smile.gif

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
I'd rather have a full Bottle in front of me than a full Frontal Lobotomy!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gibsonmatte
Feb 1 2010, 04:08 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 152
Joined: 28-January 08
From: Malmö, Sweden
QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Feb 1 2010, 04:06 PM) *
The only way I can think of to achieve it with open strings would be to pull up on the Whammy Bar to raise the open strings accordingly!
smile.gif


But that's close to impossible! smile.gif Can't wait to get home though and try this out

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
My Last FM page
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jafomatic
Feb 1 2010, 04:14 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 1.049
Joined: 6-May 09
From: Austin, TX
well, if you're palm muting anyway, seems you could influence the bridge in retaliation to the slackening. That would work for bends an open strings. As always, it would take practice and quite likely a LOT of that practice.

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
::jafomatic


http://jafomatic.net/tunes/ <-- Here lies the master collection of my collaboration and other improvisation recordings.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sensible Jones
Feb 1 2010, 04:27 PM
GMC:er
Posts: 7.277
Joined: 2-January 09
From: London-ish. UK.
QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 1 2010, 03:14 PM) *
well, if you're palm muting anyway, seems you could influence the bridge in retaliation to the slackening. That would work for bends an open strings.

I was just thinking that myself!!
biggrin.gif

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
I'd rather have a full Bottle in front of me than a full Frontal Lobotomy!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kahall
Feb 2 2010, 06:05 AM
Learning Roadie
Posts: 989
Joined: 21-March 07
From: Springfield Missouri USA
I have seen a YT vid that explains this (can't find it now). I believe it was a Van Halen type demo by someone and it is linked from this forum somewhere. What you have to do is push the trem back down with the palm of your picking hand so that the string you are not bending stays in tune. With all the other things I am trying to do it was just too much even though I did get better at it.
So I put a tremol-no on my cheesy Ibanez and I like it for just this reason.

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
Had a guitar hanging, just about waist high, and we are going to play these things until the day we die.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sted
Feb 2 2010, 07:01 AM
Learning Rock Star
Posts: 1.758
Joined: 13-April 08
From: Merseyside, UK
This is the whole reason ive ditched anything with a floating trem, trying to compensate for it through your playing just seems a whole lot of hassle for some whammy wiggles, especially if like me you're always going for guitar hero bends!

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hammerhead
Feb 2 2010, 07:21 AM
GMC:er
Posts: 426
Joined: 6-April 08
From: Maui
QUOTE (jafomatic @ Feb 1 2010, 03:59 AM) *



Yep! ... or this:

http://joe.emenaker.com/TremStabilizers/ESP.html

This works and I've installed one on my strat and love it cool.gif

Here is a vid that discusses the problems with the floating bridge...

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
When I look down at my hands... I see "FINGERS of DOOM"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
Feb 3 2010, 11:28 PM
Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
It's not that your guitar is a budget guitar, it's the common problem with tremolos. What you can do is block the tremolo and just do tune down movements.

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
thefireball
May 11 2010, 12:17 AM
Learning Roadie
Posts: 4.537
Joined: 9-March 10
From: United States, Arkansas
QUOTE (gibsonmatte @ Feb 1 2010, 06:28 AM) *
Thanks sted!

The "Tremel-no" seems awesome! A bit easier than a piece of wood I guess smile.gif

The trem btw is an Edge III and the guitar is an Ibanez RG350DX.



I have the exact same guitar and the exact same problem at times. Right now it's fine. I was instructed to put some oil in the pivot points to keep it loose in there. So when you do a dive bomb or a bend, the string won't go flat. And when you pull up on the bar the note won't go sharp. Make sure the trem system is completely horizontal with the body, and the locking nuts are tight (snug - not too tight - found that out the hard way). You'll want to make sure the guitar is in tune before you lock down the nuts though. Once you lock down the nuts, tune up some more with the fine tuner nobs. Of course, you'll want to do some string stretching before you lock down the nuts.

And if you need any help with the string change or setup: check out these videos:
(This guy helped me a lot!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjQ3p5Nh7-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5X7kAGP4o

Hope it all is well right now. smile.gif

QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Feb 1 2010, 08:49 AM) *
I also have one of these and initially had the same trouble.
The 'problem' is because it's a 'floating trem'. When you bend the string you are pulling the Trem and slackening the other strings, making them sound flat. What you need to do is this... when bending a string and wanting to play another in unison you must bend the other string you want to play to bring it up to correct pitch. It sounds complicated but you'll soon get used to doing it naturally!
I'm sure it's mentioned in one of Pavels old lessons somewhere!
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif



oh cool - thanks! This is what I was looking for (unison bends with trems). I figured that's what you had to do.

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
May 11 2010, 12:47 AM
GMC:er
Posts: 25.297
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Some great responses! The guys are right.

1.)Stretch your strings out after changing them. (Bend each one like crazy, dive bomb etc. then retune)
2.)Make sure your in tune before you lock your locking nuts.
3.)You could always set your trem not to float. I have done this on both my Ibanez.
4.)Make sure the locks are tight on the lock nuts but don't strip them.

Hope this helps.
Todd

You are at GuitarMasterClass.net


Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 




RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 08:07 PM