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Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 23 2009, 07:43 PM

Kris, Smells and I have been chatting this week about Dave Walliman's excellent idea of using lesson difficulties as some sort of progress or rank indication at GMC - we threw a few ideas around and have come up with a basic idea, but we wanted to throw this out to you, the members for some open discussion and brainstorming!

The basic idea is that GMC members can earn points by playing a lesson to a competent level - this could start out as a kind of honor thing, but eventually could be made into some sort of validated GMC diploma perhaps, with support in the site to handle this if it takes off.

We basically figured out that there are 2 separate important measures, both based on lesson levels, and completion of individual lessons to a satisfactory level. Adding the number of lessons completed over time will give an indication of keenness and also breadth of experience, whereas averaging them would give a good indication of skill level. We agreed that both were important, and would prevent someone getting to a high level by playing many low level lessons - if I learn 10 level 1 lessons I am not the same player who learns 1 level 10 lesson. The first is more diverse but less skilled - the second is more skilled, less diverse. With the 2 scores in place, this would be better reflected, as player one would have a score of 10 but an average of 1, the second would have a score of 1 but an average of 10. We could call the number of lessons completed the "Experience" and the Average difficulty the "Level"


Player 1 : Ex=10,Lvl=1
Player 2 ; Ex=1,Lvl=10

I actually think that gives a very useful track of what each player has achieved - what do you guys think?

The next step is to decide how to track this - initially we decided to start simply as we always do, with a thread that we could rollup the sores into so that everyone could see how it works out, or perhaps a wiki page. Ultimately this could be added as a part of the site. We would also want to reflect this somehow as a badge or level indication under each student's Avatar.

The next issue is how we adjudicate this - we kicked a couple of ideas around here - a panel of Seniors perhaps, but with some instructor input. I though it would make sense to allow the instructor who wrote the lesson to make a final determination but Kris pointed out that in some cases we no longer have access to the original instructors, so we discussed having an Instructor on the Panel who would perhaps have a veto or something similar. Since this was David's idea originally, perhaps he would help out here

Next we need a name for this initiative - so far I have drawn a blank but I haven't spent much time on this - "GMC Validation Program" was my first attempt, Smells came up with "GMC Endorsement Program" - any other ideas out there? Also, this would be a voluntary program as some members would enjoy and benefit from having a structure to work within, other members will dislike this approach, and shouldn't feel compelled to take part.

Finally we need to figure out what all the levels are called - this is the fun part! It would be cool if we could separate the experience and level scores somehow and have a 2 part title that reflects both. Here are some ideas, but I need help with this!

Level (Average Lesson Hardness):

1 - 2 Guitarist
3 - 4 Player
5 - 6 Rocker/Shredder
7 - 8 Guitar Hero
9 - 10 Guitar God

Experience (Number of Completed Lessons):

1 - 20 Learning
21 - 40 Experienced
41 - 60 Accomplished
61 - 80 Very Eclectic
81 - 100 Ultimate


So a guitarist with experience 30 and Level 5 would be an "Experienced Rocker" (or "Experienced Shredder") if they preferred

Experience 65 level, 9 would get you "Very Eclectic Guitar Hero"

Experience 10, level 3 would be "Learning Player"

You get the idea, we probably need to tweak the level ranges and titles but what do you all think overall?

We are looking forward to some good input and lively debate on this - as ever, it is the GMC community that shapes GMC so we want to hear from you!

Posted by: jer Jan 23 2009, 07:48 PM

GMC - the first guitar training MMORPG

Gonna grind on some lessons!!!!




Seriously I think its a cool idea. THough it does remind me of gaming stuff, Xbox achievements, etc....

And those are successful, so thats a good thing.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 23 2009, 07:53 PM

Yep, the levels and scores did remind me a little of AD&D

Posted by: Pavlov Jan 23 2009, 07:54 PM

I love this idea. If you work it out a bit more, I can see it becoming a great success. The idea behind it works well on so many different levels.

Posted by: Tolek Jan 23 2009, 07:55 PM

How can you come up with such an awesome idea? Something like this would never come to mind. This is just brilliant. I support you where I can!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jan 23 2009, 08:00 PM

Yes I think the idea of settingbot level & experience is excellent as well!

Any suggestions on how to fine tune / implement this is idea is very welcome!

Posted by: jer Jan 23 2009, 08:01 PM

Let's limit the number of Guitar Heros and Guitar Gods.

When you have enough points to be a Guitar Hero you must seek out another Guitar Hero and challenge them to a duel !!!!!!


And the Guitar God????

"THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!"

 highlander.bmp ( 318.71K ) : 215





I'd put Muris' face on it but all I have here at work is MS Paint.....

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 23 2009, 08:05 PM

Posted by: g-forcelover Jan 23 2009, 08:17 PM

Wow. I didn't know that I was an ultimate guitar god! Nahh, kust jokin. I'm a learning shredder. I like this idea!

Posted by: jdriver Jan 23 2009, 08:22 PM

Just a suggestion.. the words Validation and Endorsement don't seem to apply, possibly a different perception of those words in the US and EU.

Perhaps "Certification Program," as in "Certified by GMC," or something involving a diploma or degree program.

"Certified Guitar God, CGG-GMC,

Posted by: utak3r Jan 23 2009, 08:36 PM

Heh... I'll give you an example from myself - I can accomplish level 6 in rythming and I'm fighting hard with level 2-3 soloing

Posted by: Bondy Jan 23 2009, 08:41 PM

This idea sounds great too me, should help to get people more motivated.

Posted by: jer Jan 23 2009, 08:46 PM

This brings up an interesting thing.

1 rating or 2? Lead and rhythm?

Or just one balanced rating?

Posted by: fatb0t Jan 23 2009, 08:51 PM

Absolutely terrific idea...I would love to participate.

Posted by: skennington Jan 23 2009, 09:02 PM

First off, looks like the brainstorming has went well so far between you three. I can see a structure starting to develop.

As far as the grading concept, I think these two factors are a great way to find the average of one's abilities as a guitarist within the GMC community, so I think this will work. May need some tweaking here or there, but a good platform to start.

Tracking the progress; How about one board for this program like the SI board. Here, each member who wants to participate could post a link (from there practice agenda?) for their lesson to be graded. Once graded or a "yes or no" applied, then the appropriate score applied to that member. A "pinned" thread could be home to all who are participating and monitored to update the "badge" if one is used.

With the grading process, I really feel this should be done by a panel of Instructors. They are who we all learn from and I think their would be less controversy with their decisions. Just my opinion of course.

As for the name of the program, my first thought, since the grading is based off of the lessons would be "GMC Acknowledgment Program". You are being acknowledged for your accomplishments so...

Names of the different levels, hmm...this is going to require me to think a bit more before I can offer an opinion but I will put some thought into it and let you know any suggestions I can come up with.

I think this is a great idea and will also give the Instructor's more gratification for the effort that they put in. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out!

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jan 23 2009, 09:19 PM

Great idea! It will be difficult to organize/set up all this thing, but it will be worth of it. At the end, progress is what GMC is all about!

Posted by: enforcer Jan 23 2009, 09:19 PM

I want to be a level 8 Bard/Mage with Agent prestige class

That is a terrific idea, I really want to see it work!

Posted by: fatb0t Jan 23 2009, 09:22 PM

What about you post your take of a lesson with a poll. Only instructors can vote. You have a uniform ranking of your take from like 1 to 5
5 perfect
4 excellent
3 average
2 you need to work harder on it
1 unsatisfactory


this way it isnt bound to any particular instructor - they can vote as they will you know what I mean?

Posted by: lcsdds Jan 23 2009, 09:23 PM

I really like this idea. Hopefully the powers that be can figure out a way to make it work. Has a lot of potential I think.

Posted by: Ajmurrell Jan 23 2009, 09:24 PM

Love the idea guys This would be a huge reward based system for learning and improving. This may be an irrelavent comparison, but console games nowadays with the trophy based systems are a real hit. I think it would work very similar here

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Jan 23 2009, 09:33 PM

I posted my brainstorming thoughts in the thread where David left his idea.

Posted by: jer Jan 23 2009, 09:40 PM

I think a panel of instructors who vote PASS OR FAIL is all thats needed.

Posted by: Matt23 Jan 23 2009, 09:52 PM

I'd love to see this happen.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jan 23 2009, 10:06 PM

Using a poll sounds like a good idea! We could think set minimum percentage required to "pass".

edit - this got me thinking! Maybe we should just throw out these polls in the open on the "instructors only" board..!

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jan 23 2009, 10:11 PM

Just great, will track this very closely!

Posted by: Toni Suominen Jan 23 2009, 10:14 PM

This sounds awesome, I really want to see how this system is incorporated here. It will be fun!

Posted by: lcsdds Jan 23 2009, 10:16 PM

I think the best thing would be that it would encourage people to FINISH lessons up to speed rather than just stealing licks here and there.

Posted by: skennington Jan 23 2009, 10:17 PM

This would be a very good and simplistic approach. Once a grading system is in place, all they would need to do is vote!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jan 23 2009, 10:19 PM

Yes that is another reason to do this. If you almost nail a lesson - why not nail it completely and then get "visible" points for it?

Posted by: -Zion- Jan 23 2009, 10:25 PM

indeed.. if one got some kind of "reward" like this one might complete the lesson..

awesome idea..

edit: it would give people a sense of accomplishment, and might boost their confidense.. which is a bit plus..

also, to take it even further it would be cool if the completed lesson was added to the profile, so you could view all the lessons you'd completed (maybe even with links to own videos.. ie youtube)

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jan 23 2009, 10:34 PM

It will also work for GMC, as in order to prove that one has completed the lesson a video would most probably be needed, and video responses, placed for example on Youtube will bring the glory of GMC to the masses;)

Posted by: superize Jan 23 2009, 10:35 PM

This sounds very interesting

Posted by: JVM Jan 23 2009, 10:35 PM

Sounds really good. It seems to me though, that if someone went and did ALL the lessons on GMC, their average level of ability would be dragged down by all the lower level lessons they do. Of course, this would be offset by their diversity, but maybe some kind of system whereby lower levels of lessons aren't factored into the average level score. Just like the system you have in place:

1 - 2 Guitarist
3 - 4 Player
5 - 6 Rocker/Shredder
7 - 8 Guitar Hero
9 - 10 Guitar God

Except that if their "experience" consists of only level 1-2 lessons, only those will be factored into their level average. If their experience consisted of many levels though, especially if it's someone that has been learning a lot and improving, it will only average the lessons that are of the highest level they can do. There would need to be a few lessons shown to prove that they can play at this level though.

For example, if a 'player' has been playing level 3-4 lessons for a while, but can manage to show competence now doing some level 5 lessons, maybe even a level 6, they can submit those and they'll become a 'rocker/shredder' and their average 'level' will now only be average among the level 5-6 lessons they can complete. This way, their diversity keeps increasing but their level accurately reflects how good of a player they are.

It's like making a bunch of f's (not comparing low level lessons here to failures), and then a few A's. Obviously, you know the stuff because you made the A's, but you have a bunch of f's (completed low level lessons, in this case actually a good thing) that will drag your average down to something not accurate to your real level.

Posted by: DaniHel Jan 23 2009, 11:08 PM

Great idea!

Posted by: rokchik Jan 23 2009, 11:08 PM

This is so great Just another great initiative that puts GMC well above any other guitar site on the web.

I think using the practice agendas is one way to post your take of a lesson to be "graded". Maybe there could be a pinned topic in the main GMC board so when you have finished a lesson and want it graded, you can post in there with a link to your practice agenda. And maybe there can be a box put in your agenda for your points and level that the "graders" can amend as needed. Just an idea... no matter how it's done I can see the panel of "graders", whoever they are, being very busy (Although I like the idea of the panel being made up of instructors seems the most fair)

As for a name... I'll have to think a little more on that one.

rok

Posted by: David Wallimann Jan 23 2009, 11:09 PM

Wow!It's funny how an original idea can go so far!
I really like what I read so far.

Andrew, I like the distinction between experience and level, it will surely prevent students to just go for easy lessons to get credit. I think the general classification you suggested is a good starting point. We can always tweak a bit as we go, but for now I really like it.

I think having instructors credit points is great. Maybe have some kind of scoring grid such as this for example:

Rhythm placement -/20
(self explanatory)

Cleanness -/20
(How clean the notes are)

Feel -/20
(Does it feel like the student really appropriated the guitar part to himself or does it sound like he's just copying something..)

Posture -/20

Sound -/20
(Probably not a good example, as we don't want to penalize students with poor quality material...)

We probably need to discuss that grid. I don't think we should include things like technique in there as if a more advanced player tackles a beginner's lesson, there is no point in grading his technique. We need to find a general system applicable to any lesson and any level. Does that make sense?

Maybe have something like 5 categories, each worth 20 points which once graded by let's 5 instructors the student will get a 100 point score.

If a student gets a final score of 50, he will get 50 per cent of the lesson's point value. If a student completes a lesson of level 5, and gets 50 points, he will earn 50 percent of 5. That student will earn a total of 2.5 points.


We could maybe have prizes such as access to a secret lesson, or maybe a one on one 30 minute lesson with one of the instructors (that's for when GMC will allow us to have that kind of feature...)


Does that make sense?

Posted by: Canis Jan 23 2009, 11:18 PM

This is brilliant! As long as we stay polite and don't rub titles in other peoples faces in the unfriendly manner (as I guess there will be some good natured, friendly teasing )
As if becoming a badass guitarist wasn't enough motivation, this will absolutely make it even more fun to learn lessons ^^

A suggestion for the name could be "The Stairway".. As inspired from the Rock and Roll History Museum's "Guitarway to Heaven" (atleast the Pick of Destiny version of it), which is inspired from Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven? ^^

By the way, I like your system, David ^^

Posted by: utak3r Jan 24 2009, 12:03 AM

Yeah, that's a nice idea, more flexible IMHO

Posted by: Iluha Jan 24 2009, 02:41 AM

I actually love the idea just as it is, simple and very effective, will serve as yet another motivation tool for everyone!

Posted by: HAMWAGON Jan 24 2009, 02:58 AM

I actually quite like this idea but i think there should be a grand prize such as a ibanez Jem or a Mesa boogie Tripple Rectifer ... Maybe not but it does sound quite good

Posted by: UncleSkillet Jan 24 2009, 03:17 AM

Canis I really like your suggestion for a name but I think we need to maybe stay away from religious thoughts as it may offend some of are brothers and sister around the world that come here.

This is just "Guitar Hero" with a real guitar and real playing. So why don't we just call it what it is and that's "GMC Hero!"
Well that's my 2 cents

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Jan 24 2009, 04:07 AM

This all sounds great.
I will definitely keep an eye on this thread and future related ones

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Jan 24 2009, 04:12 AM

Cool idea, makes you wanna practice more to upgrade your rank... I like it

Posted by: kahall Jan 24 2009, 06:10 AM

Another great idea. I have been working on my camera and recording disasters. What a pain it is to record yourself. I had no idea who much work it is for the instructors who make all the vids. Hopefully it will get easier for me. So yeah I might have time to participate.

Posted by: Mandos Jan 24 2009, 07:08 AM

This is a brilliant idea. I agree that posting a video in your practice agenda is a good way to get it graded. We just need to find a good way to grade them. I think that a board of instructors would be the best way.

Posted by: Ramiro Delforte Jan 24 2009, 07:31 AM

I think this is a great idea!!!

The only thing that I didn't read about is regarding the styles...
Because one thing is to become a Guitar God of Metal that Lian could be the one who's judging that maybe but another very different is to become a Guitar God of Classical Guitar.
So we can make like a program were you have to achive a certain level of different styles let's say:

-Reach level 5 in classical guitar
-Reach level 4 in fusion guitar
-Reach level 6 in metal guitar

But in order to get the diploma you master in a specific style like...Rock.
So you have to achive level 10 in that style but you also know other styles and the judges in that style make the decitions. That would divide the job among the instructors too, and give a common background to the student of different styles in order to be "more professional" you might say.
It's just an idea...

I think this could be another topic to talk about (maybe there is a topic related to that and I missed, sorry if it already been talked).

Posted by: vampire14 Jan 24 2009, 10:34 AM

a great idea indeed but it has a couple of issues
first of all there are only 2 lvl 10 lessons. if you do like 3 other lessons you would never be able to make up for that

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jan 24 2009, 11:03 AM

The idea is nice, but we GMCers are so nice, no one will ever rate a number 1 or 2

Andrew, nice idea! My pice of engineering
1-2: GuitarZero
3-4: Guitarist
5-6: BedroomRocker
7-8: GuitarMaster
9-10: GuitarHero

and for the number of lessons:
1-2: Experimenting
3-4: Strong Based
5-6: Multi Talented
7-8: Badass (From Canis)
Level>8: Next Level

Something like that Cool work guys! I really want to be a multi talented Bedroom Rocker

BTW, I think a MP3 without BT should be enough, otherwise only ten people will really participate

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 24 2009, 11:44 AM

This is a more than a great initiative for GMC, as I mentioned before. Can't wait to see how it turns out!

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jan 24 2009, 11:51 AM

I just thought of something, what if someone plays different levels, like 4 and 5 or even 3,4 and 5?

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 24 2009, 12:31 PM

Heh.. this idea was actually posted by me like a year ago and I got said that there wont be enough instructors to apply this system:) http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=10232&hl=jakub+luptovec

Anyway I 1000000% support it and agree with those titles - they are the right encouragement IMO The only thing I would change would be the number of lessons 80-100 is faaaar to much. I would put it like:

1-5 Beginning (shredder...)
6-15 Experienced (player..)
15-25 Accomplished (guitar hero...)
25-50 Wise (player...) (he knows a lot of lessons - licks, scales etc...)
50+ Omniscient (guitar god)

And when he will manage to do 50 + with highest rating (guitar god), he would make some kind of exam to be allowed to choose the ultimate title for ex.:

Son of Steve Vai
Son of Michael Romeo
Son of Joe Satriani
Son of Yngwie J. Malmsteen
etc. etc. etc.
(or daughter ofc..)


Btw. those lvls will be determined by percentage of total amount of lessons (say 20%+) with highest rating.

In work:
20 lessons total,

10 on diff 3
5 on 4
4 on 6
1 on 7

he would have been Accomplished shredder - highest 20 % are 4 on lvl 6, so that would count.

Posted by: utak3r Jan 24 2009, 12:36 PM

Ha, what Ramiro said is good... about styles

Posted by: Toni Suominen Jan 24 2009, 12:48 PM

Interesting ideas dude

Posted by: Col Roberts Jan 24 2009, 01:05 PM

This is a great idea .

I think the process of certifying a lesson as being successfully completed should just be done by a panel (of Seniors and Instructors), and judged only on the technical aspects eg. timing, correct notes etc. After all, if a submitted lesson is technically correct should it be rejected for a lack of "feeling", for example. If it lacks "feeling" that could just be a side comment from the panel.

Anyway, I'd love to see this get off the ground ASAP.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 24 2009, 05:55 PM

Keep the ideas coming guys - this is some incredible feedback and areas that we hadnt even thought of!

So far I like the points about lower lessons dragging your average down, pols for instructors to rate, some more complex ideas about rating different aspects of the lesson ... and of course some of the naming ideas

We'll keep the ideas flowing for a while longer then we'll try and pick the best ideas and weave them into a program of epic proportions

Posted by: Emir Hot Jan 24 2009, 07:42 PM

Great thread and great response. I'll keep following this one.

Posted by: enforcer Jan 24 2009, 09:20 PM

Hey there, I had a brainstrom last night, and I tried to develop some ideas about that...
We can use experience points to unify that dual ranking system as this.
We can classify lessons under 4 catagories like:
Difficulty 1-2-3 -> Beginner; 4-5-6 -> Intermediate; 7-8-9->Advanced; 10->Insane
You could find one ranking system by multiplying every step by 1000 and add it to a general sum like:
Beginner x 1 + Intermediate x 1000 + Advanced x1000000 + Insanex1000000000
That gives you a number like this as experience:
1,014 => this player has played 1 Intermediate Lesson and 14 beginner lessons
3,017,003 => this player succeeded in completing 3 Advanced lessons 17 intermediate lessons and 3 beginner lessons
9,120,050,002 => this lovely alien succeeded in completing 9 insane lessons 120 advanced lesson 50 Intermediate lesson and 2 beginner lessons.
Yeah 1000 successiful lessons from the level below makes a +1 to the upper class, but lets face it one who accomplished 1000 beginner lessons is possibly able to play 1 intermediate lesson
So we can rank it like using this number like
Below 1000 -> Guitar Rookie
Between 1000 and 1000,000 -> (you name it)
Between 1000,000 and 1000,000,000 -> (you name it)
Above 1000,000,000 -> (you name it)
And also we have a problem here, as various difficulty lessons contain various techniques, you need another descriptor to imply that individuals capabilities. One can be excellent in A.P but may lack potential in Sweep picking or Legato runs. May Humble idea is to push in 7 descriptors like this:
Warrior, proficient with A.P, Tapping, Vibrato, Bends etc
Mage proficient with Legatos, Sweep Picking, Whammy etc
Rogue proficient with Hybrid Picking, Extreme Pentatonic Mastery, etc
Spellsinger, Warrior and Mage abilities
Illisionist, Rogue and Mage
Bard, Warrior and Rogue
Jack of All Trades, Warrior, Mage, Rogue
And also, one may also be ranked with everything he does in GMC, like uploads, collaborations etc...

Well hope you like this...

Can

Posted by: Canis Jan 24 2009, 09:28 PM

That's so awesome, I have to hug you if we ever meet in person

The "everything done on GMC" is also awesome... It can make everyone really stand out and advertise a bit on what he/she are doing musically

Posted by: jer Jan 24 2009, 09:35 PM

Awesome.

Esxcept I keep wanting the lowest level to be called "Roadie" for some reason....

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 24 2009, 11:46 PM

I'm for more than 5 categories, so we can insert some cool names in there just to keep things a bit more fun. Here are couple of suggestions:


chord basher
bedroom shredder
apprentice player
roadie
rock star
tone seeker
tone master
tone guru
guitar hero
guitar lord
guitar god

Posted by: Fran Jan 24 2009, 11:46 PM

This is just awesome. I'm thrilled about this whole thing!

GMC meets AD&D, the plan sounds amazing!. Plus the feedback in this thread is just great, so many cool ideas... Can't wait!

Posted by: opeth.db Jan 24 2009, 11:55 PM

Very cool ideas and can't wait to get this rolling..

Posted by: Col Roberts Jan 25 2009, 03:28 AM

How about something along these lines:

Beginner.......... Lesson Difficulty 1-2 ...... 7 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Beg/Int............ Lesson Difficulty 3-4 ...... 7 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Intermediate.... Lesson Difficulty 5-6 ...... 5 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Int/Adv............ Lesson Difficulty 7-8 ...... 4 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Advanced......... Lesson Difficulty 9-10..... 3 lessons......then 2 lessons chosen by the panel

The expectations for each level have to be made clear, and, of course, lessons selected would have to cover these expectations.

You can come in at any level and complete the lessons to achieve the ranking. Once you've submitted the required number of lessons the panel then chooses the final lessons. If you've chosen lessons mainly on the lower side of the difficulty level, the final lessons might be at the higher level. Also, the final lessons should include any techniques that may have been missed.

I don't think the process should be too complex. Achieving a ranking shouldn't be easy, nor should it be too daunting, especially for beginners. Some lessons could take months, especially if you have to master a new technique.

I think the first ranking (Beginner) should be known as Guitar Rookie.

In the future, collaborations could also be done according to the different rankings. A bonus for the instructors as they will know your playing abilities.

Anyway, I'm ready for any endorsement program .... bring it on!.

Posted by: Velvet Roger Jan 25 2009, 06:00 AM

Awesome idea, with very nice input already. Looking forward to it .

I like this suggestion as well

Posted by: Mandos Jan 25 2009, 08:33 AM

I really like your suggestion Col Roberts.

Posted by: Alex Lewis Jan 25 2009, 09:53 AM

This could work really well if you put a new tab under a lesson entitled student versions (where comments on lessons etc go) then people could upload their version underneath the lesson itself and the relevant instructor /board could approve the student version for credit (i.e experience and level) or make suggestions for improvement etc, then the instructor could update the relevant students level somehow on their profile.

Just an idea but I think it could work

Alex

Posted by: Canis Jan 25 2009, 10:09 AM

We have such a tab, only called "Community". Students can post their youtube version of the lesson there.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 25 2009, 10:35 AM

First of all, I think we should divide the categories, that are to be rated. For this post, lets call them difficulty and quantity.

in terms of difficulty - how promotions (on higher level) should be done (Sort of like Lineage 2 ):

- each month there will be (say) 4 different lessons (4 for each category..), you will have to complete (say) 3 of them, so you wont have to make one of them. If succesfuly completed, your title would be updated

And for all of the lessons:

- there would have been some "board of judges" - for sake of this post - with 10 members. For each your video, to be recognized as succesfuly completed, you would have to have 8 thumbs up out of 10.


Btw. what about playing just some part of some lessons? Was anyone thinking about that? Bcos I tend to rather learn just a few licks here and there. I cant really remember when I finished some whole lesson:P

Posted by: wrk Jan 25 2009, 11:48 AM

This is really an brilliant idea !!

This program could follow different directions and i think it is depending mainly on the scoring system.
GMC is a lot about fun and motivation. A easy scoring system could add some extra motivation to practice a bit harder and to finish some more lessons. A more detailed system could grow to a really good feedback tool on the other hand.

The initial idea to use the difficulty level and the number of lessons is already a good start, but i see some problems using only these values. It is hard to define, when a lesson is succeeded or not. Two members can play the same lesson with all notes correct, but there is a huge musically difference.

We all tend to approach lessons which are beyond and sometimes way beyond our current level. Which is of course a good thing, but to play some faster or difficult parts sloppy shouldn't be too much rewarded in my opinion. Lessons with lower difficulty level can be quite challenging, if someone is working on some musical aspects, which should not be valued too low as well. The goal should not become to take down as much lessons as possible or to approach constantly lessons which are too difficult.

David's idea to integrate somehow timing, cleanness and feel as part of the scoring system would add some great value. At the end this is what classifies different levels the best. Maybe creativity and personality could be interesting as well.

1. timing and cleanness : are values which easily can be rated
2. feel : is maybe a subjective value, but a lesson can be played perfectly clean and in time, but musically empty or the other way around. I think a instructors is able to rate this(?)
3. creativity : There are lessons, with the goal to develop your own ideas, improvisations or melody lines and it should be valued somehow, if someone modifies a lesson with another creative idea.
4. personality : some members (on all levels) are quickly identified after playing just a few notes. I'm not sure if personality is the right word, but every musician should try to archive to find his own "voice".

(To separate "personality" from "feel", feel could be defined as played adapted to the song/style/..)

David's 20 points per category idea (5*20 - > 100 points = 100%) provides a fine grid and keeps different skills well balanced. To apply the percentage of these points on the level of difficulty, equalizes lessons to each other quite well i think.

The naming system could be done by defining different ranges of collected points.

One question to be answered for every system is, how to deal with different takes of the same lesson (?). If some gets a certain number of points in the first take, it should be possible to use the feedback and to continue to practice on it and push this lesson further over time.
Somehow it's necessary to keep track of this and updated the points without too much admin work.

To sum it up: In my opinion, musical achievements should be rewarded more or at least similar to technical skills, as this is what it's all about when playing guitar.

Posted by: 29a Jan 25 2009, 01:51 PM

Is it just me or does the average seem to be the wrong measure?
If I start out doing Level 1 Lessons, and then finally end up at level 10.
Then at the end, I'll have an average level of 5.0. And I'll never be able to
get the level to 10.0. I guess it's very hard to describe someones overall skill
in terms of numbers.

But I've actually built something similar for myself. It's a little script that analyzes
my playing accuracy. But that's only helpful for learning how to play like a robot.


- Jonas

Posted by: Sensible Jones Jan 25 2009, 02:28 PM

What a brilliant idea!!!
With this kind of grading system I should be able to progress beyond "Bedroom Plank Spanker"!!!!

Posted by: David Wallimann Jan 25 2009, 02:44 PM

I agree, but I think that if a student makes another take, it should be over rule the previous rating.
Either that, or we keep only the highest score from all the takes.
I don't think it would be a good idea to enable someone to score 10 80's for the same lesson...

Posted by: wrk Jan 25 2009, 03:26 PM

Of course .. One lesson only counts one time!! Over rule the previous take or keep highest, both is possible i guess.
Maybe to keep track of this is too complicated for a first version of this program. Thinking some steps in front, this could add a lot educational value.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jan 25 2009, 03:34 PM

Well I think the rule should be "grant points for certain lesson only once, if the player provides a better take on the lesson, replace the grade from the previous take with a grade for the better one".

I keep track of the topic, can't really dress my thoughts in words, but what I know is that: don't make it to complicated, simplicity is required ( at least for the beginning ).

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 25 2009, 05:57 PM

Theoreticaly, some easily setupable database could solve those problems. Everyone participated in this program would have his own entry in the database, and everythime the judges would vote, the votes will be updated in the dat abase and, if needed, his title changed.

Shouldnt be too hard to create IMO - not that I would be able but..

Posted by: Col Roberts Jan 26 2009, 02:31 AM

Perhaps, a fixed number of points could be given for the satisfactory completion of a lesson (as judged by the panel), and bonus points given for feel, creativity etc. I don't think that feel, phrasing and creativity should come into the equation until you have at least passed the beginner level.

Posted by: wrk Jan 26 2009, 10:17 AM

This could be a good idea, to add feel or musical interpretation as bonus points! Do you have an idea, how a point system could work for this?

What i liked about David's idea, is to have values on what a panel of judges can rate the satisfactory level of lessons. Timing and cleanness defines well technical skills i think, maybe there are other or better values(?).

For example the GMC competitions. It was sometimes hard to choose between two entries. One was played more clean and in time, another one was a bit more rushed and sloppy, but with more feel imo. Hard to say which take deserves more points. Beginners need of course a few more years to reach higher technical rates, but it is often impressive what they already do on the guitar from the musical point of view, which should be rewarded as well.

This approach goes more in the direction of a "GMC University" and it is maybe not the goal to make it too serious. More and more members are saying in collaborations they want honest feedback and it could become a good tool for this. A more fun approach to earn titles can add a lot of motivation of course as well.

Maybe a poll can help to evaluate what members expect from this program (?)

Posted by: Smells Jan 26 2009, 11:20 AM

yes I agree, reading through I think there are some great ideas, but to start something like this off initially it needs to be simple, generally that way things can be tweaked or added and it gives the whole idea a chance to establish, rather than being far too involved and people getting confused over different aspects of the guide.

Picking up on one of Jacobs points about "part" lessons, I dont believe this would work in, I think it adds a complicated twist to any scoring/judging procedure, but also I think that this should really motivate to "complete" whole lessons.

I like Davids system a lot, initially when Kris, Andrew and I chatted I suggested a "pass" mark.
just for example: a Panel of 4 judges that mark a video from 0-5, a maximum score of 20 can be achieved with a "Pass" being granted at maybe 15 points (just for example), with Davids additional content points it will give a better indication of how the mark was achieved and areas of improvement needed to "up" the grade.

Great ideas being bounced around though, the threads been a good read

Posted by: David Wallimann Jan 26 2009, 12:54 PM

Or we could also simplify the whole thing...
After uploading a lesson, the student clicks a button to roll a dice that gives him his final score...

Posted by: Col Roberts Jan 26 2009, 01:07 PM

No, I haven't given it any thought. I might wait for Andrew, Kris and Smells to come up with their thoughts on the process.

There are many great ideas in the thread, and I agree that the system should be kept fairly simple.

Perhaps there should be more levels (10?) so that it takes fewer completed lessons, or points, to get from one level to another.

Posted by: Smells Jan 26 2009, 01:31 PM

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jan 26 2009, 03:21 PM

Great idea.....

Posted by: Fran Jan 26 2009, 05:33 PM

+1 on the keep things simple at first.

This is going to be fuuuun

Posted by: Praetorian Jan 26 2009, 05:44 PM

This is an AWESOME idea!!! It would give people something to strive for!!!!

Posted by: lcsdds Jan 26 2009, 09:00 PM

I really think that the purpose of this whole program should be to get people to COMPLETE lessons!! Being able to play something from start to finish takes your playing to a whole other level, IMO. I know for me that for years I could come up with what I thought were cool licks but I had no idea how to apply them. When I found this site and started doing the lessons I could see how really these solos were just somebody else's "cool licks" that had been put into a coherent solo. It is cool to steal licks from lessons you like but it is altogether another skill to be able to play the solo seamlessly from start to finish, up to tempo, in time and with feeling. Just my 2 cents.

Monte

Posted by: Jeff Jan 26 2009, 09:35 PM

You bring up an interesting point. I can learn how to play one of the lessons and make a video of myself playing it. That doesn't mean that I understand what I'm playing. It just means that I have memorized it.

In order for me to truly know it and the context to which it applies, and be graded on it, I should be able to explain the concept/theory behind it to someone else. That would be the real test. How does one do that for this program? It seems that you would have to make an explanation video or text like the instructors do. So, without that, what would really be evaluated is your ability to play it but not necessarily understand it...

Maybe the instructors should post a few questions along with the videos so that students can answer them and be scored that way too.

Posted by: purple hayes Jan 26 2009, 09:47 PM

I just recently discovered this. For the past year, I've just been stealing licks from the cool lessons. It wasn't until I tried to record my versions of the lessons that I realized I'd been cheating myself the whole time. It's really made me a better player to have to learn the whole lesson and be able to play it up to speed.

Posted by: lcsdds Jan 26 2009, 10:02 PM

I don't know that you really need to be able to explain the solo, it would be nice but especially for a beginner it can be overwhelming. I just know that with all the really cool lessons on here I don't know how many people are truly taking advantage of them by learning them all the way through until they are done. We are all on different levels. I could pretty easily play most or all of the "beginner" lessons on the site but I don't think that is beneficial to me. I want to learn the advanced stuff so that is what I am working on. Maybe I am way off but I just think that alot of us don't realize how beneficial it is to be able to learn the lesson from start to finish and up to tempo. I know I learned Muris's Canon lesson and it took me a few months to get it down and up to tempo. I had to change some of the licks from picking or hybrid picking to legato and tapping but I got it to where I could play it. The biggest thing I got out of that lesson I think was string skipping, and it was probably the first time I had learned to play a piece of music from start to finish with the backing track. The licks in that piece were difficult so I obviously had to slow them way down and work them up to speed. Even when you get to where you can play the licks up to speed now you have to figure out how to string them together fluidly and how to play them with the backing track and not just a metronome or drum machine. I had never really attempted string skippping at all until this lesson and I forced myself to keep at it for a few months. Now I notice on some of Muris's other lessons I am working on that the string skipping licks aren't as hard as they used to be. I am even getting better at the hybrid picking, which is another technique I never attempted before coming to this site. I'm babbling now. I just think that this program should really encourage people to pick a lesson they want to learn and really stick with it until they finish it. I'll quite preaching now.

Posted by: Ctodd Jan 30 2009, 11:17 PM

I was just thinking, and I had this thought.

It would probably be necessary to set some sort of precedent when It comes to evaluating the lesson, so that no one gets "heart borken". Like If I nail 95% of the lesson, and worked my butt off to get it to sound that good, but I couldnt quite get that ONE lick down in Measure "x" exactly... I wouldn't expect to get 100% (or however we are scoring these)

I don't think it's necessary, to be this strict...As I think more about this, maybe this is going a little to far...

oh yeah....

And how about "GMC Evaluation Program" ?

Posted by: Jenkinson Jan 31 2009, 01:21 AM

I support this idea, I would like to propose the idea of changing "Guitar God" to "MasterClass," and "Very Ecletic" to "Veteran."

Posted by: Col Roberts Jan 31 2009, 09:22 AM

Another suggestion for the program name ... GMC Accreditation Program (GAP).

Posted by: Wabba Jan 31 2009, 09:34 AM

Great idea! Gives a reason to complete and upload lessons!

Posted by: kaznie_NL Jan 31 2009, 10:07 AM

I want to repeat something I said earlier, I think an MP3 file would do! A video takes more time, and the "doorstep" is higher! An MP3 is just plug in and hit record, video (for me) means plug in, click, record, and then syncing and producing video. I think we should use MP3s instead of videos, because it might double the degree of participation!

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Jan 31 2009, 10:07 AM

GuitarAccrecitationProgram? GAP?


Map my GAP

Posted by: wrk Jan 31 2009, 11:45 AM

True, audio only is of course easier and not everybody have the gear and experiences to record videos. On the other hand i think video is better for to evaluate skills. I have to practice way more to record a video and play the lesson from the beginning to the end as for an audio take where i can split the recording in 2-3 smaller parts. Nothing wrong with that ... for audio recording its not important to know how it was done, just that it sounds nice. Video adds this "live" moment a bit more. You are right, participation will be higher with MP3s and it will be even enough to evaluate musical skills, but in my opinion videos are telling more about technical skills. I guess it has to be defined what the goal of this program is (?)..

Posted by: Jenkinson Jan 31 2009, 05:12 PM

I agree with wrk, I think a video is better for evaluation purposes.

Posted by: Col Roberts Feb 1 2009, 03:39 AM

Would love to hear from Kris, Andrew and Smells on this topic. Are you forming an idea on how this program will be run? I know there are many new things happening at GMC at the moment, but I am very keen to see this begin. Just a quick update ...

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 2 2009, 03:06 PM

Thanks guys, we are still digesting all the ideas you have given us and we will be putting this program in place soon!

Posted by: fatb0t Feb 2 2009, 06:54 PM

I must say I'm very excited for this program. In every video game where there are achievements I get super hard core into (Call of Duty 4/5 & World of Warcraft for example). Think about how many times more rewarding it would be to get achievements for an actual skill instead of a digital video game that in 10 years will be a faded memory?

Posted by: opeth.db Feb 2 2009, 07:00 PM

Definately fatbot. I am too really excited to get this rolling!

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Feb 2 2009, 07:50 PM

I agree, that would make most sense, maybe we could choose some standard lessons for each level.
Like, if you can play this lesson level 3, if you can play that lesson(more difficult) level 4 and so on. When tis whole thing finally gets live students will be "delighted":)

Posted by: Rain Feb 9 2009, 03:30 AM

I absolutely love this idea - very well done. I just need a mike and free recording software

speaking of the idea of being tested on theory. Why not have the instructors actually create tests on music theory for each lesson? Have a multiple-choice test or a "free-response" type feedback test to see if we really understand what in the world we are doing. This would /definitely/ make the members 100% better every time they completed a lesson.

You would have
(1) Guitar playing / feedback from instructors
(2) A theory test to hone your skills / feedback from instructors about the theory
(3) An excellently well-versed community on all aspects of guitar playing
(4) Stronger community

What a fantastic idea you all have brought up - I'm excited about the direction this will take!

Posted by: David Wallimann Feb 9 2009, 02:27 PM

I like the theory test questions too!

Posted by: jer Feb 9 2009, 02:39 PM

that is an awesome idea!

Makes it better than just "I can move my fingers here and there like ____ did."

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Feb 10 2009, 08:44 AM

I support the idea of more points of view and more things to rate - feeling, technique, creativity, theory...

Btw. can we have some admin/senior update on this topic? In terms of how you decided about those tiltles, rules etc. We are information hungry:D

Posted by: Col Roberts Feb 19 2009, 10:31 AM

I think that's a good idea. Perhaps a score for completing the lesson successfully and bonus points for feeling, technique etc.

Would love some feedback on the progress of this program.

Posted by: Compound9 Feb 19 2009, 02:00 PM

i love the idea. I love the ranking system. sign me up now lol

i also like the idea of having bonus titles along side your ranking for being fluent in a technique like legato, sweeping, etc. and the idea of adding the genre to your rank too, like metal, jazz, classical etc. but these would not be given more thought maybe.

and although some people have figured out that if you average the scores you cant ever get the top ranking because your average will pull your score down (or maybe you can? ive not thought about it that much and figured it out). but if you cant this might be a good thing. maybe when you get to a point where you find you can complete the level 10 lessons quite easily you become legible for guitar god trials. and have the instructors set out a series of trial challanges and if you complete these to a high standard you are awarded the highest possible rank. just an idea, just putting that out there. although, if you are that good, stop worrying about your gmc rank and go out there earn some serious cash for being absolutely amazing on the strings!!

Posted by: Col Roberts Feb 20 2009, 07:36 AM

Maybe members could be awarded a downloadable official GMC certificate for each level reached.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Feb 20 2009, 09:43 AM

Meh.. and what price would it have in real world? I think that just an update of your progress data in your signature should suffice

Posted by: Col Roberts Feb 20 2009, 12:16 PM

None at all. But it would look good on my wall ... and it might help to inspire me to get to the next level.

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Feb 20 2009, 02:22 PM

:D ok then:) Since my wall is filled with flags (and in future hopefully with guitars) but I can agree that for some it could be nice addition:)

But we can wish for everything, the real question is what effort would have to be put into this to do it on regular basis so everyone could have this if wanted... Hmm maybe prepared excel sheet connected to database?

Posted by: kaznie_NL Feb 20 2009, 04:36 PM

Good to see this thread is reborn It was needed xD

O, Sign me up as well

Posted by: Canis Feb 22 2009, 10:54 AM

I had a dream tonight (yes, I dream about GMC). I dreamt that I was surfing the forums, and under people's avatar was their new titles instead of the "GMC:er" title.
And below the postcount, there was a new line called "Guitarpoints: [insert number here]"

I hope Kaznie won't mind me using his post as an example and demonstration of my photoshop skillz?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 23 2009, 06:45 PM

I like that idea Canis We will definitley have the title just where you showed it, the guitarpoints might take some more work!

We have had some more thoughts on this and are shaping it up - expect to see some info in the next week or two, and thanks for all the excellent suggestions!

Posted by: Col Roberts Feb 24 2009, 10:05 AM

Thanks for the feedback Andrew. One more suggestion. There appears to be reduced participation in the monthly challenges. I guess members are busy with lessons, collabs etc. Perhaps the monthly challenges could somehow be tied in with the endorsement program.

Posted by: kaznie_NL Feb 24 2009, 10:10 AM

HAHAHA, this is so cool Me as ultimate guitar god!!! I'm honoured Canis

Posted by: sigma7 Mar 11 2009, 07:32 PM

dude, some motivation to stick with the lessons, nice!