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Posted by: Andrew6 Mar 4 2009, 05:45 AM

hello, I've started doing ear training to supplement my mtp theory lesson plan and I think I may be completely tone deaf . I am doing the tests on musictheory.net and am failing horribly, the tritone is pretty much the only on I can consistenly get . Any advice on how to work on this or is it a lost cause?

btw Sorry about the title typo

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 4 2009, 05:53 AM

Ive been training my ears for years without knowing it... the way i did it is to break down a song and listen only to the drums, then listen only to the bass, then only the guitars

Posted by: Andrew6 Mar 4 2009, 05:55 AM

I mean as far as the sounds of intervals between notes and intervals in harmonies, like I would know a major 6th from a min 7th interval if I had to haha

Posted by: Outlaw2112 Mar 4 2009, 05:58 AM

im clueless on that stuff....

Posted by: Ramiro Delforte Mar 4 2009, 06:35 AM

Well mate I recommend you get some method. Here in Argentina we have the Maria del Carmen, but there are many, the Zoltan Kódaly is a really good method too in Hungary and is well-known all over the world. Paul Hindemith has some training too.
Also you can get some method entirely made with audio like the David Lucas Burge method, I leave you a link

http://www.perfectpitch.com/relativepitch.htm

When you have to learn this stuff is little by little for example I'll copy the index from the Melody part of the book of Maria del Carmen (the book is divided into Rhythm, Melody, Intervals and Harmony)

Melody:

-Relation low-high (differenciation between registers)
-Movement of the melody
-Tonal center
-Major mode
-Minor mode
-Melodies in major scale
-1st 3rd and 5th sounds of the scale
-Placing the central C
-Reading in F clef
-The 6th sound of the scale
-The 2nd sound of the scale
-Major pentatonic
-Minor pentatonic
-The 4th sound of the scale
-The 7th sound of the scale
-Modes: dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian
-Aeolian mode
-Minor scale
-Keys
-Order of flats and sharps
-Enharmonic scales
-Rules for alterations
-Alterations in minor keys
-F major key
-Harmony of F major
-D minor
-Harmony of D minor
-Passage between F major to D minor
-Passage between D minor and F major
-G major
-Harmony in G major
-E minor
-Harmony of E minor
-Passage between G major to E minor and viceversa

The same happends with the intervals. One chapter for one interval

-Minor third
-Major thid
-Perfect fourth
-Perfect fifth
-Whole step
-Half step
-Minor sixth
-Major sixth
-Minor seventh
-Major seventh
-Tritone
-Octave
-Intervals exeding the octave
-Augmented and diminished intervals

The course last 4 years so imagine that every topic has it's own time.

What I want to say with this is that you cannot learn all by a blink, you have to go step by step. In the David Lucas Burge method is the same you have a practice routine.
Also Steve Vai has some piece of advices in his website.

I forgot that everything that you learn always is great to have a previous reference. There was a topic here in GMC where everybody added their references to the intervals, for example: perfect fifth = superman song.

Let me know if this helped you and if it don't I'll try to explain a more detailed topic.

Posted by: Andrew6 Mar 4 2009, 06:45 AM

Yeah I understand what you are saying it is a lot of work! i've got a book I am learning from currently but it just gives you the shapes on the fretboard for the intervals and then just sort of moves on to triads without giving it much attention. If you don't have a well developed ear how would you be able to actually play the melodies you think of while improvising? I mean for writing you can sit down and work it out but in improvising you dont really have that kind of time.


I am reading on Steve Vai's site right now

Posted by: Ramiro Delforte Mar 4 2009, 06:59 AM

Well, there are a lot of players that doesn't know any music but they play all by ear and they're great.
I recommend a good clinic about this by Barney Kessel, he's a great jazz guitar player and he talks about the relation between the ear and the neck.
Check some method that comes with audio and start from there. But I recommend that you should train with somebody else. The relative pitch is something that you need to sing and practice with other people to assure a better understanding. Also there are many many players that became really good because they never used scores or tabs they just passed tons of hours listening and getting all the songs and solos by ear until they nailed them.

About the book that you talked about it seems to be something that is related to the guitar. Ear training is something that is not entirely related with the instrument because is something that all musicians must do. So the books about guitar I don't think they are a great source to learn those things. You have to get some ear training method in order to study this stuff. Obviously the connection with the instrument would be important but the ear training study is just training the ear and not the fingers, is about singing to externalize what you hear and have inside your head.

I hope this claryfies a little.

Posted by: -Zion- Mar 4 2009, 10:16 AM

I had been practicing ear training a while back (now not so much anymore, which isn't really good).. keep in mind i am definately no expert.. just sharing my experience.

I was using some kind of program that play two notes with x number of intervals between them..

what it did was associate that particular interval with a really common song that you know (of course only a very small part of the song).

Like the starwars theme.. "da da da daaaaaa da" (hahaha.. silly, but i hope you get it).. between "daaaaaa da" there is a 4th (this might be wrong as i cannot remember), but hopefully you get the idea..
edit: starwars is a perfect 5th, not a 4th.. thanks Ramiro

it was all about associating that particular interval with a piece of music.. so whenever you heard this interval in a song or melody you would instantly think of "starwars" and then think "perfect 5th"..hope it makes sense..
of course if you are totally new to this, i would begin with separating all instruments in songs.. listen intensely to the guitar.. only the guitar.. rest fade in the background.. then the bass.. then the drums.. then the singer.. order i think doesn't matter.. just being able to tell a songs instruments apart from eachother is a nice achievement..

Posted by: berko Mar 4 2009, 10:25 AM

I've read all answers posted in this thread so far but I'll reply to the original topic.

Relative pitch is important and that is exactly what you can acquire with the musictheory website. I've been practicing there a lot. So what I did was I ticked out all intervals and left (for the first attempt) Unison, Minor 2nd, Major 2nd. I did 100 attempts of it. Then I did a break or something so that I could prevent myself going crazy Then I ticked the 3rds. then I ticked the 4th, tritone, 5th. Then the 6ths, then the 7ths and the octave. Then I started all over, but now the seconds and thirds together. Then the 4th, 5th and sixths together. You get it now...

then I start the whole business all over with the intervals going from the higher note to the lower one. Of course if you try to swallow the whole stuff, it can be very difficult. My record was (after a month practicing nearly every day) was 94 correct out of 100 By the end, my ears were bleeding and I dreamed with intervals all night - horrible

So then you can try the whole stuff with guitar because the sound and the vibe is certainly not the same compared to this sterile sound of a piano. Then ofc, after all this, you can move on to sight reading and all that sutff. And you can always return to this page to freshen your ears

Posted by: Ramiro Delforte Mar 4 2009, 10:26 AM

Here is the Star Wars theme and it's a perfect fifth the interval that starts the theme




But as I've said before Zion explained really well. You have to have some references to songs that you really really know in order to recognice the intervals or even harmonies so when you have to listen to them in other song your memory evocates that sensation/feeling.

Posted by: -Zion- Mar 4 2009, 10:43 AM

aaahh.. perfect 5th.. damn.. hahaha..
Thanks.

Posted by: Aleksander Sukovic Mar 4 2009, 11:59 AM

I recommend this: http://www.earmaster.com/

It has helped me a lot!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Mar 4 2009, 12:29 PM

Andrew be patient with it. Only thing I can recommend you right now is to focus on couple intervals at the time. Your ear (untrained) cannot process all intervals until octave straight away , it takes time its a process.

Start with unison , minor and major 2nds. If you can do 100 examples without any mistake, move to new test and now add minor 3rd; do the test again; then major 3rd etc.
Gradually your ear will lock in the sounds. You will be surprised how fast that happens - only if you practice every day !

Posted by: TheOldOnes Mar 4 2009, 03:28 PM

Hey Andrew - you are definitely not alone in this. I earmarked that site for the ear training and started taking the test and it was definitely somewhat depressing when I got about 30% in which many of those were easily identifiable unison intervals.

It made me realize that I was pretty poor at this - but it definitely isn't because I am tone deaf but rather, as pointed out by a number of posts, I am just unfamiliar with the intervals. I am also not particularly well versed with scales....yet. So now I do the test on a daily basis and have been learning what I need to concentrate on and perhaps a different approach to concentrating on listening. I suspect this is exactly like your own problem.

Lol - identifying the tritone interval correctly each time was the opposite for me - since I had no idea what that was, I was always getting it wrong until I looked it up and figured out what it was.

Oh - something that lead to increasing my success by 20% or more was by repeating the major scale starting from the initial note in my head until I came to the correct interval - since I am not all that familiar with scales, it only improves my success a little bit but I suspect that these exercises are invaluable in learning my scales as well!

Posted by: Andrew6 Mar 4 2009, 03:31 PM

Yeah that seems like a logical way to go about things! I am going to start doing a few a week as suggested above, i.e this week unison minor and major second and progress when I get them perfectly. Maybe Canadians arent tone deaf after all

Posted by: TheOldOnes Mar 4 2009, 03:48 PM

Yeah I have had this arguement with alot of people lately as I suspect there are far fewer people that are really tone deaf. I think it is just a matter of training or lack of training for the most part.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 4 2009, 09:09 PM

There are rare people who are really tone deaf. But on the other side, there are rare people who have absolute and relative pitch from birth!
For all us in the middle, developing ear for music is a skill that just requires time and effort, just like other skills, so the more time you put in it, the better it will become. Good news is that this skill is developing while playing, without even doing constant exercises, but with those focused exercises, you will learn it more quicker. Human ear is very sensitive, and it may need some time, like several years, to adopt certain frequencies as recognisable, but it is nothing unusual. We all have this gift, and we can develop it further.

Posted by: Ramiro Delforte Mar 6 2009, 03:16 AM

I want to remark that the so called "tone deaf" people actually they are not. They only cannot express what they hear, is an impossibilty that could be reverted.
So even if you were tone deaf you could break it through.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Mar 6 2009, 02:06 PM

Yes, I agree Ramiro, I said the similar thing, only used a bit different terms. I'm not sure what tone deaf means exactly, but I meant it as a medical expression when someone is not being able to distinguish tones.

Posted by: Ramiro Delforte Mar 6 2009, 05:49 PM

Oh, sorry
I didn't catch that. I just wanted to remark that was only as you've said a classification of a symptom.

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Mar 6 2009, 09:21 PM

This takes years..I would for start recommend including ear training in your guitar practice time..You can do both at the same time.Start with intervals..Play them on guitar while singing to them.Next you can try playing the first interval (and singing it) and then singing the second interval before playing it on the instrument (to check accuracy and train your ear)..You can do same with scales...Its not that time demanding and will give you a lot of practice and you will feel it instantly. (Doesn't matter how good or bad your singing voice is)

Posted by: JamesT Mar 6 2009, 10:18 PM

If you have a piano, it's best to use that, cause the keyboard is laid out so nicely for this. Start by memorizing the easy intervals: octaves, fifths, thirds (maj and minor). Play the two notes in sequence, then simultaneously until you can recognize the character of each interval. From there, once you get the easy ones down, go for the rest, 2nd, perfect 4th, 6th, etc. Move on to triads after you've got the basic intervals down.

Also if you can get someone else to play the notes and "quiz" you on which interval it was, it helps. In fact that's how our ear training professor in the ear training class I took in college did it. He assigned us to go practice by ourselves then he quizzed us all together in class each week for a few weeks.

It's definately true that you can eventually recognize all the intervals. I aced my ear training class back then. (hey, if I can do this anyone can ) Today I'm not sure if I could get all the intervals, but I did great during that semester and had them down pretty well. It was worth the effort, cause learning tunes by ear on guitar became so much easier after that.

Jim.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Mar 6 2009, 10:43 PM

This quiz type approach is great !

I was running a special 9 week course in Boston at private music school I was working at.
It was introduction to intervals and ear training. In each lesson we covered one or two intervals and were learning their sound ascending and descending. I was playing to my students things via Piano , Guitar and played them real life examples of how those intervals are used in music (from pop all the way to jazz styles). Of course, in class I asked everybody to sing the intervals !
It was very good experience for everybody and people who attended every other week that Masterclass series passed the class with 2 hours with me in the classroom there.
I might run something similar here as soon as I sort my instructor board, so stay tuned for that