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Posted by: RobM Sep 14 2007, 05:39 AM

Didn't know where to post this so I decided to post it here.

I've noticed lately that some people are slamming other people when they ask a question. I've also seen it done with an opening line like: "No offence but". If you already knew what you were going to say was going to offend the other person(which you did by adding the above line) then why say it in the first place?

It's probably not my place to say anything at all but I've noticed this type of thing increasing and I just figured I'd say something about it before it got out of control. If people continue to do it we will end up with two things; people no longer wanting to post for fear of being slammed and other people doing it because nothing was said to the people who are doing it now.

GMC is a great place to hang out, learn a lesson or two or post a question about something you've been wanting to ask but didn't have a place to ask it. Of course there is much more to GMC than that but I think everyone gets what I'm trying to say.

Rant off, lol.

Posted by: Robin Sep 14 2007, 05:44 AM

I cant seem to have noticed anything lately, GMC is a really awesome and friendly "place"

Posted by: SLASH91 Sep 14 2007, 05:46 AM

Yeah, I too have noticed some posts like this recently. I agree with you dude; this is a really friendly forum and I dont want it to become unfriendly anymore than you do.

Posted by: Wallimann Sep 14 2007, 06:09 AM

I totally agree with you.
I've noticed that too and feel very uncomfortable about it.
I've also noticed a bit of arrogance sometimes from players that are a little more advanced.
I believe that no mater what your skills are and how well you play, the most important thing to have is true humility.
I'm not talking about "fake" humility, but true and genuine humility that recognizes that whatever achievement you have accomplished whether on the guitar or anything else you have ashieved shouldn't be a call to praise yourself...
On the oposite, it should be an oportunity to give thanks to others for the blessing of having reached a certain level on the instrument.
Humility and willingness to help others reach the point that you have reached is the key.

Posted by: Asphyxia Feeling Sep 14 2007, 06:19 AM

yeah i see the UG mentality creeping up on GMC's forums. we should post a sticky of "general forum etiquette" or somewhat!

Posted by: FretDancer69 Sep 14 2007, 07:13 AM

i havent noticed anyting like that either.



good idea.

Posted by: kahall Sep 14 2007, 09:55 AM

I have not noticed anyone getting out of line here myself, but I do not read every thread.

Posted by: JOhn Sep 14 2007, 03:11 PM

no offense but


but seriously i don't see whats so bad about no offense.

Posted by: fkalich Sep 14 2007, 03:58 PM

agree.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Sep 14 2007, 04:10 PM

Well enough people seem to have noticed this for me to take this seriously - thanks a lot Wallimann for lining out this problem!

Could people who have noticed this send me a pm with an example of what you mean. We will of course not mention any specific users or threads in public - but it would be very helpful to get an example!

Thanks

Posted by: The Uncreator Sep 14 2007, 06:59 PM

I havent noticed it that much, GMC is the nicest place on the net, if even an ounce of the UG forums attitude comes here ill be dissapointed.

Posted by: rokchik Sep 15 2007, 01:34 AM

There is already

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=5086

This place is the nicest forum I have ever seen to be honest and I know that Kris, Andrew and others do a very good job of keeping it this way. Now there are bound to be conflicts....that's human nature....but like I said I think Kris and Co. do an excellent job of nipping things in the bud when they go to far. I've been on the UG forum...I lasted one day because of all the jerks there. I've been here since March and plan on staying way longer.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 15 2007, 02:24 AM

Thanks for pointing that out Rok - Everyone go and read it immediately!

Now, a word about my moderation policy ... I try very hard to do nothing at all. Sounds like a cop out I know, but the way I see it, the less I am doing the better GMC is working as a community. If I go around deleting posts all the time and blocking users, GMC will be like a police state. One thing that always pleases me is when someone makes a harsh statement, or is unkind or rude, and regular members step in to take the person to task. That means the community is self policing, and a nice place to hang out because that is the way people want it to be, not because Kris and I are forcing it to be that way.

Make no mistake though, I read every post and when I see rudeness or bad language I will take action, fortunately it is very rare that I have to do anything - GMC is basically a very decent place.

Sometimes members in good faith disagree with each other, its bound to happen. If people disagree with respect that is healthy and should be encouraged. We aren't all a bunch of angels sitting on clouds, we are real people with passionate opinions about music and I wouldn't have it any other way.

As soon as a thread starts getting heated I camp on it - I will make sure I am notified for every post that is made, and if it becomes too heated I will often say something - when I post in bold italics, that is my "listen to me " voice - if people don't get the hint after that I will lock the thread, sometimes temporarily to let people cool down, if it is an interesting subject, or forever if it is a forbidden subject such as threads about file copying or drug use.

If I post to a thread that, is a level 1 warning - just a reminder to be a little more careful. The next stage is a PM - when I PM you about your forum behavior it goes on your record so that we can refer back to it. As moderators we see on everyones posts how many times they have been warned. Eventually, if people need to be warned too many times, for repeat offenses we will consider temporary or permanent forum bans, although I haven't personally needed to ban anyone so far.

If anyone is offended by anything that anyone says on GMC, drop me or Kris a PM. We both care very deeply about keeping this a pleasant place to hang out, we will take whatever action is necessary to keep it that way.

These principles are all enshrined in the posting guidelines - be familiar with them!

Posted by: fkalich Sep 15 2007, 07:00 AM

Some guy just made a comment on a thread "I won't say anything because I might offend somebody". This is great, we certainly don't want any evidence of personality here on this forum. I will be careful in the future to not display any personality at all, as this is clearly offense to some people. I will just say happy things to everybody, whether I believe it or not. When somebody posts some awful upload, where my cat could have done just as well were I to let him swipe at the strings with his paw, I will say "Good Effort! ". And from now on I will show 3 happy faces every post.

I owe you two more....

Posted by: The Uncreator Sep 15 2007, 07:05 AM

Well, dont hide your personality, and if oyu have an oppinion dont be afraid to voice, i think what andrew and every one else are trying to say (or atleast part of it) is that if your going to voice your oppinion, think about what you say and how it will effect the person you say it too, Speak your mind, but also be repsectful to other peoples feelings and there oppinions as well.

Posted by: Owen Sep 15 2007, 07:08 AM

You. Are. Brilliant

Damn, I think my sarcasm meter just broke, your off the scale.

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Sep 15 2007, 07:17 AM

Speaking on Maturity....

Posted by: Kizaze44 Sep 15 2007, 07:41 AM

It's called constructive criticism. Take a look at some of the instructors' posts critiquing uploads. Proof that it's possible to do it with "personality".

Wow.

Posted by: KRmachine Sep 15 2007, 07:43 AM

There is a difference between expressing your opinion on something and just plain out flaming.
Let's say some guy uploads a solo he's made, and you think everything is terrible. His timing is way off, he has all the feeling of a badly programmed MIDI, you can't tell if he bothered or knows how to tune his guitar at all, he probably hasn't heard of the words "scale" or "key", and so on. What do you post?

1. "Haha are you serious? that was terrible, my grandma plays better than that, and she's deaf."

This is obviously not what you should post, you don't give him any advice on how to improve and you're just plain mean.


2. "Good job man, I really enjoyed that!"

No you didn't, and now you're lying to him too. If you think he can improve on something say so, if you post something like this to avoid hurting his feelings you're hurting him in the long run by not making him aware that he needs improvement.

3. "I'm sorry, but that wasn't very good. You should probably start by tuning your guitar [explanation of how to do it or link to a page that describes it], and also start practicing with a metronome. When you've done that learn some theory to find out which scales fit where."

Of course, the post above is only parahprased, it should be much longer and have constructive criticism on where you think improvement is needed, without being mean or bashing the guy.

We don't need people being mean for no reason, but we definitely don't need people not posting their honest opinion out of fear of getting flak from the mods or other users.

Maybe I'm just tired and rambling here, but that's how I feel about this. If I did something horribly horribly wrong I'd definitely want to hear about it as soon as possible so I can work on it.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 15 2007, 07:46 AM

+1

The 3rd way is the best, and what we should all aim for when critiquing peoples efforts.

Posted by: Owen Sep 15 2007, 07:50 AM

Personally I think we're going a bit overboard here. Half the people that have posted in this topic havent noticed anything at all and if we were to all get on with each other and not say anything in the least contentious then this board would not fulfill its purpose as a place for discussion.

I dont think we should change who we all are to abide by stringent rules for discussion, there's always going to be points of conflict and as long as they dont go overboard, which I'm sure they wont, then people must learn to live with it.

Not everyone shares the same opinion or outlook and no matter how much moderation there is, this is never going to be the case.

Edit: I also think people are stating the obvious here, I have never seen any downright flaming on these forums in my time here, yet it still seems to be an apt point for discussion and all the UG bashing just seems to be biting the hand that feeds this site, half the members found their way from there in the first place.

Posted by: MickeM Sep 15 2007, 08:00 AM

Good point, I've noticed it too. It used to be zero slamming, lately it's increased a bit, not much yet but it's better to be proactive than too late.

Last couple of weeks I've been doing more home improvement and very stressed just check in here once a day and I can notice that the forum is growing to the extend that there can be four unread pages to view on a good day. As the forum grows and people get less familiar maybe it's easier to come down on someone and then disappear in the massive posting. I can't tell since I've tried to sort out the important threads these busy last couple of weeks and have possibly missed the latest events.

Then what the slamming could be aswell is two friends pushing eachother around. Not being familiar with all the nicks and who's hanging with whom in the PM and chat it's possible to mistake friendly tickeling for something bad.

And the "No offence but" - right on spot what you said, it just means something offensive is about to be said.
"No offence MickeM but you sucked in that colabboration" is as bad as "MickeM you sucked in that colabboration".

G'night!

Posted by: Ayen Sep 15 2007, 08:00 AM

That's when you know you have a great moderator watching over.

Posted by: RobM Sep 15 2007, 11:05 AM

Thanks, I was starting to think I might have grown a thin skin with all the "I have not noticed anything" posts. I guess it all depends on what you read? I try to read most if not all posts that are on the board to see what is going on. I love Andrew's approach to Modding, it's the best one and the one that works the best, especially for a place like GMC where so many cool people come to hang out and share ideas, their knowledge and advice.

Posted by: fkalich Sep 15 2007, 11:41 AM

first, I think Andrew should be thanked for what he does. Whether I agree with him entirely or not (who does agree with anyone entirely?) without him, things could deteriorate quickly. I very much appreciate what he does here, as I am sure Kris does. However, that being said....

I disagree entirely with the sunshine blowing crowd. Does not help anyone, just encourages mediocrity (at best). I figure I have to stay in line within bounds of the owner of the site, or I won't be here. But as far as others are concern...I don't agree with all that happy horse poopy way of expressing yourself.

Let me explain by example. When she was a little girl, maybe 10, I took my niece to the track to run laps. I told her to run 800 meters. After 400 she wanted to stop. I said something like, "ok, weenie wimpy, wittle baby, take your nappy time!" She took off and ran that last 400 so fast, that she was crying when she finished. But very happy, and proud of herself. But I was such a mean uncle, right? She ended up going to an Ivy League school, and holds the record from most point scored in basketball in the history of that college. She also remembers that event, and remembers it fondly.

I am not saying that event made any difference, but I know she did not over achieve because everybody clapped for her every time she remembered to flush after she used the toilet.

Oh, almost forgot....

Posted by: GroovinMastiff Sep 15 2007, 12:34 PM

Well said.

There often seems to be a fine line between being encouraging someone and patronizing them. I am fairly certain that people would rather hear the truth about themselves instead of contrived, sugary rhetoric that has no other purpose other than to spare one's feelings. And as is pointed out above, the truth is likely to be more beneficial in the long run.

Life is full of people who don't give a damn about sparing people's feelings and will tell you straight up what they think of you. So I think that it is healthy to hear some criticism every now and again to build up your psychological immune system so that you can easily shake off all the nonsense that you will hear throughout your life, and use all the useful criticism that you hear to improve yourself.

That being said, if someone is given sincere encouragement because it is warranted, that someone will know that you are being sincere rather than patronizing, and they will likely appreciate your kind words because deep down they know that they earned it. Now, if someone is insincerely praised - even if the praiser had the best of intentions - they will likely see right through it, and think of you as patronizing, and therefore unwilling to to help them achieve what they want to. And again, they will sense this because deep down they know the truth themselves.

And honestly, this is the best place to hang out on the internet, and the mods and the members deserve praise for keeping it from turning into a pile of nonsensical comments a la Youtube, and fortunately I don't see it changing to that anytime soon

Posted by: JOhn Sep 15 2007, 12:35 PM

i like it when people give me negative comment becuase it means im getting the truth. I hate it when people say that wasn't to good when it completely sucks.

Posted by: blindwillie Sep 15 2007, 04:43 PM

I definitly not endorse that method. Especially when text is the only way to communicate. You might get the above result, but more likely all you get is a broken person who never will go into sports anymore, or music, or writing on the forum or whatever activity it concerns.

Posted by: Owen Sep 15 2007, 05:27 PM

Its the carrot or the stick really. Both are just as effective methods of getting people to improve, however, on the internet we dont exactly have many incentives for people to improve. I post lyrics and ideas on UG sometimes just to get them bashed to hell, you sometimes have to be cruel to be kind.

Posted by: tonymiro Sep 15 2007, 06:46 PM

+1 with blindwillie.

The forum requirement is for constructive feedback. It is difficult enough to communicate effectively verbally, face to face with someone you know well. Rudeness and wholly negative feedback may be efficient in that it gets a result BUT it is not necessarily effective. Too often with negative feedback the result is obtained in order only to avoid future rebuke. There is little, if any, long term affective learning (ie that entails long term meaningful learning and behavioural change).

In a forum such as this communication is considerably harder, we neither know each other nor are able to pick up on any non-verbal clues regarding meaning and intent. It is really easy, and might I say potentially egotistical, to provide non-constructive negative feedback. In so doing however you cannot know what effect you have had on the person receiving it. You are more likely to get some affective learning by providing positive comments with an insight of possible areas to work on.

I'm certainly not advocating a 'everything is wonderful in the rose garden' form BUT the feedback should be constructive and appropriate to the player's level if known. There's little point in telling someone new to guitar 'you suk cos you can't shred 16ths at 220 bpm.'

The example that fkalich cites whilst interesting is open to debate. There is no evidence of any causal link between his feedback to his niece and her subsequently - some ten or so years later - making it to an ivy league.

A different example, I was taught to swim at age 7 by my father - he threw me into the deep end of a swimming pool and left me to get out by myself. He did it for lots of reasons, he was a bully, he was drunk at the time (again) and he was bored by my paddling in the shallows. I came out of pool and then he beat me up for crying. There you go negative feedback at its worst. Quick, efficient way of learning but not effective - I now hate swimming and avoid it all cost. I've little doubt that some here will say 'hey but now you can swim, you won't drown'. Yes but at what cost? Ends do not necessarily justify means

With regard to constructive feedback - my daughter, aged 7, swims like a fish . She learnt over some months with both my wife and I providing positive reinforcement and encouragement. She now loves swimming and pretty much goes everyday during the Summer. Because of my aversion I have to pretty much sit it out. Sad really.

If this makes me part of the 'sunshine blowing crowd' so be it. I'm here to try to help constructively.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: MickeM Sep 15 2007, 07:06 PM

That's exactly what you said, an example. You can't practice that on all people, if they don't have it in them it can backfire and you end up with a broken and and weaker person who will think she's a "weenie, wimpy, wittle baby" and that's no way to go up against life.
This was your niece, I take it you know her pretty well. I'd be quite certain to guess you don't know anyone on this site well enough to know if name calling will spur them or destroy them. So which is safer, the kind and mellow appraoach and maybe miss out on spuring someone who'd rather take a beating or be a tyrant and break a dozen fellows.


No, these methods are not equally effective. you have to be very careful to whom you direct a stick or a carrot. Give out a carrot to a person who rather have a stick and you achive nothing, give out a stick to someone who'd rather have a carrot and you have done damage.



AND +1 on what tonymiro said.

Posted by: mattacuk Sep 15 2007, 08:25 PM

Cant we all just.....go fishing?!

Posted by: The Uncreator Sep 15 2007, 08:56 PM

Only if you bring a boat big enough for a few hundered people

Posted by: FretDancer69 Sep 15 2007, 11:08 PM

very well said MickeM

Posted by: RobM Sep 16 2007, 02:06 AM

Bing the father of three (2 boys and a girl) I have to say that is the worst way to motivate a kid. As an example I used to be the biggest jerk in the world, I was the typical sport parent who used to yell, scream and whatever, I used to use tactics like that to get my oldest kid to excell in sports and in school. Well, he made it and was recruted by some of the top schools in the country for football. He turned them all down flat because by the time he graduated school he was sick and tired of it (me). I blew it with him.

As soon as he could he moved out of the house blaming me, got into some trouble and should have been killed when he rolled his truck over going 70 on the highway and then got hit by a tractor trailer truck. You should see the truck it amazing that he walked away from that accident with only some scratches and bruises.

I had an event in my life a few years ago that really made me come out of the funk that I was in and since then I have been changing my ways. If someone knew me back then they would not know me now the way that I am and the way that I treat everyone around me.

My youngest two are also excelling in both school and sports and they are loving life ( the difference was that my oldest might have excelled he hated it, i pushed him into it instead of guiding him). My oldest is back on track now living back home, going to school and doing good again, but still to this day i can feel the seperation between us, it's getting better but it's still there. On the other hand me and my two youngest are as close as a parent and kids can be. The difference is me.

I'm also a coach in various sports, the kids I used to coach see me and try to walk away (most of them anyways) but the ones I coach now all see me, come up to me and say hi coach etc.. Use patience and positive reinforcement and always be honest without being abusive. It does work and goes alot further than abuse and negative reinforcement.

Posted by: Pavel Sep 16 2007, 02:29 AM

I know one thing - if people around me were telling me i was a guitar god after playing a C Major scale i would have never learned to play at all. I keep watching world shredders just to get a feeling of how bad i am, and that's what helps me to keep practicing. I have a goal and i'll be there but i appreciate bad comments more than good ones.

If somebody tells me - "you play sloppy here, and you missed that tap there" and i know he is right, it's better than telling: "Oh man, you are amazing!" and i know i missed 10 notes in the certain lick/solo/whatever.

Btw. this is a very interesting discussion. Let's hear more opinions.

Posted by: FretDancer69 Sep 16 2007, 02:45 AM

well, the people that usually say "Oh Man, you are amazing!" is because they dont play guitar at all, or are below your level, so therefore they cant point out your flaws/mistakes. That means you wont get constructive critiscm from them like you would from a more advanced player.

Posted by: Ryan Sep 16 2007, 02:54 AM

Ill just say this. People want the truth, not any lies.

Truth = (Mean) Not nesscearly like YOU SUCK, but more of you this isnt good man. You need to work on this and that.

Lie = (Nice) MAN THAT WAS AMAZING.

We all have our bad points on guitar. We just sometimes need other people to tell us that so we can improve, other than being told it was good and sticking to sloppy playing and such!!

Posted by: FretDancer69 Sep 16 2007, 03:05 AM

well, if you're told that you're good, but stick with the sloppy playing, you're making a foul yourself. Even if people tell you its good, you should know mistakes and still practice.

Posted by: Ryan Sep 16 2007, 03:14 AM

Some people are like that dude.I just saw this dude that posted a video for the Steve Vai comp. And well, hes like IM a shredder. IM really good, but this video isnt my best. I can do way better. So i check it out. And wow. Faklichs cat can do better. I gave him a chance though. And checked out all his music. And well he really belives hes really good. But hes one of the sloppiest players I have ever seen!!

Posted by: FretDancer69 Sep 16 2007, 03:34 AM

are you talking about a dude that posted it in the Uploads board? And why do we always have to bring fkalich's cats into the conversations!?

Posted by: Ryan Sep 16 2007, 03:36 AM

OOH no, that dude, i posted on his. No that wasnt him. he was just some random video i seen. The dude that posted on the video. Had some thing going for the most part. The other dude, wel he had no backing, just random notes lol. He coudl barly jsut pick random notes!! Thats the kind of stuff im talking about!!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Sep 17 2007, 03:35 AM

Fkalichs cats are extremely talented ... (and earlier in this thread he used one of his cats as an example).

Now just for the record, I find most of what fkalich says pretty interesting, and I agree that too much sunshine achieves nothing at all of any use - we just differ in the exact application of that principle.

Posted by: kevin-riff-after-riff Sep 24 2007, 04:57 AM

coz they smelllfunny, thats why they say it