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Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 15 2010, 02:26 AM

Here you can post uploads for the classic rock collab. I'll be doing text comments as you post your takes, and the deadline is in 2 weeks.

Here's the backing, have fun

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=19904

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 16 2010, 06:09 PM

Alright Ivan here it is... I will make adjustments and re-post after your review

ok it's below...

Posted by: UncleSkillet Jan 16 2010, 06:20 PM

Heads up!! You didn't include your guitar trak with this upload bro. It's just the backing track you uploaded.

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 16 2010, 06:40 PM

Thanks.... I'll have to see what happened!

Let me see if this works...

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jan 16 2010, 07:12 PM

Hi there Ivan, very nice backingtrack! I enjoyed playing to it:)

Here is the take with the backing:  crocke.mp3 ( 657.74K ) : 267

Here's without:  crockwithout.mp3 ( 578.56K ) : 206


EDIT: I think the open string run-like lick is bit to long, but as it was a long time since I played such thing and just couldn't change it

Posted by: Velvet Roger Jan 16 2010, 09:20 PM

Hey Ivan,

Here is my take, enjoyed playing over it.



Edit: somehow I could not attach the right files (when I uploaded them, totally different files were played when downloaded, so here are the mp3's from my own webspace:

http://www.rjmm.nl/music/Classic%20Rock%20Collab_VR_noBT.mp3
http://www.rjmm.nl/music/Classic%20Rock%20Collab_VR_wBT.mp3

Posted by: Berglmir Jan 17 2010, 04:58 PM

Hi Ivan!

I LOVE the Backtrack and this collab - it was really easy for me to get into this one - thanks for that.
So here is my take (if you think the guitar part is too low I can re-mix it - I try to learn in that aspect as well as you know )

 Berglmir_ClassicRock_WBT.mp3 ( 927.09K ) : 292

 Berglmir_ClassicRock_NBT.mp3 ( 705.33K ) : 210


You might also remember that I have had some issues with rendering in Reaper - main problem was that I could not get the sound I was hearing into the mp3 file.
Well, I found a work-around that works for me - and maybe for some of you as well:
In Reaper I render into FLAC (lossless format)
The I open the file with foobar 2000 (file sounds exactly the way I heard on my speakers/headphones) and from THERE I convert it into mp3.
I notice quite a big difference in sound & tone quality after converting (that´s obviously the price for smaller data packages) but its MUCH better than from a Reaper rendering.

Just wanted to share this with all of you - worth a try if you are struggeling with rendering issues in Reaper.

Cheers

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 17 2010, 06:10 PM

Hammehead:

Rhythm: By listening to your take as a whole, I think you managed to create some interesting moments in terms of rhythmical phrasing, there are peaks and lows, with longer notes, and faster notes, and somehow it all fits in. On the other hand, in the whole take there is evident lack of timing, and this may be your biggest problem as a player. You must work on your timing to make it as precise as possible. Almost all the notes in this take didn't match up with the drums properly, and there are places where the notes are very much outside of the beat completely. You should be able to play the notes with a good understandment of where the notes will drop inside a bar.
Phrasing: You phrasing skills are good, and build up is very nice. There is a start, climax and good ending in this solo, and I like the way you transferred into higher octave in the second part. However, you didn't do very much on accenting the strong notes properly, or creating a melody or main theme, or anything catchy that will stand out in this solo. When I listen to solo on it's own I cannot hear any good melody, or structure, although the build up is there, you haven't really connected the solo with the chords in the backing. I advise more scale learning, learning diatonic scale and modes, and chords inside those scales, so you understand better how to form melodies.
Technique: Your technique is decent, and you played all the stuff nicely. You have major problem with muting techniques, lot of the noise comes from not being able to mute the strings that are not suppose to ring out. Other problem is not having proper control over the pick, so some notes are heard less loud, some more loud. This is OK for dynamics, but here it is happening randomly.
Sound: Since you told me to give you straight answers, the tone here is not good. It has buzzines, lack of mids (which prevents the guitar being heard in the mix), and has tons of unnecessary delay with very big feedback and reverb too. If you plan to use delay on this kind of track, bare in mind that feedback should be maximum 3 repeats (that is often too much as well), and level of it should be very low. Delay and reverb should also be put on separate effects track, so you can EQ then so they come out of the mix. This is the way delay is suppose to be heard, not by increasing level and feedback.

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 18 2010, 03:59 AM

Thank you Ivan! Yes I did ask you to really tell me This is great feedback here for me as well as advice on how to improve! This is what I need to hear Now I will set to work to make corrections. I can say that my timing is not very good, which I only recently discovered by doing collaborations. This is in part because I've never really listened to the "beat" before, but I think I took it for granted as more of a backdrop that I could do what ever I wanted over the top? Now I am learning that I have to work WITH the beat. My picking is very weak and I've had to almost start over with picking exercises I guess I never took picking too seriously and relied a lot on hammer on/ pull off technique (legato). It has now made it harder for me to regulate the "dynamics" of my notes because I'm struggling to pick each note. So I'm having to return to the basics now, to clean up my sloppy playing, I will work on my muting as well. I also have no idea how to use my effects... which is not as crazy as it sounds I suppose. I've dug around the web for help in this area, but no one I could find really talks about how to "record" with effects to bring out the best sounds. Because I love delay, I think I tend to use it way too much, but again it's all been trial and error, I tweak a knob and play a bit, then tweak another knob... you know. I could spend all day tweaking and not really get too far since I have access to a boat load of effects (Tone Lab LE). I appreciate/need the advice regarding the Tone and quality of my recording. So Thanks for the "Straight up" about my playing... if I didn't seriously want to get better, I would not ask you to be honest I will see if I can go do my "homework" and post again before the deadline. I can at least see if I can make real improvements in the Tone/sound department, The other areas will take some time...

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 20 2010, 02:34 PM

Very nice feedback from you, thank you. I think you did very good take, and we are all hear to learn something. All the problems you wrote about here are common and they are not that difficult to correct, as long as you focus on them during practice. Regarding tone, we can all help a lot, you just need to ask questions on the forum. Here are some general tips on how to tweak the guitar tone in DAW:

- use high pass filter to cut the guitar track bellow 80-100Hz (bellow that is only bass rumble that is not directly associated with guitar tones, since the low E string is @ 82.4Hz). this bass information can muddy up your mix.
- leave the mids on the guitar track on 0dB (the mids could be found between 300-800Hz)
- it's often better to cut the EQ on the guitar track than to boost it. So, if you want to accent mids, it is often better to leave the part you want to boost on 0dB, and lower down everything else a bit. This way you ensure that EQ will not cause any distortion or other issues.
- when placing effects, try not to overdo it. Delay time is often better to be synced with the track in 8th triplets or 8ths, depending on the track. This will make delay follow the beat more naturally. Adjust the delay feedback to 2-3 audible repeats, and listen for the final mix to see how delay is being heard.
- when choosing a reverb, perhaps it is good to choose a shorter reverb time with reverb that isn't too loud. This will ensure that your core tone is not being colored by reverb too much. Also, you can try to cut the low frequencies of the reverb so you get more reverb in higher frequencies instead of low.
- remember that mixing guitars is all about how well the sit in the mix, not how well it sounds on their own. Often you will hear guitars that sit in the mix well, and when you solo the track it will sound thin and mid-focused. Try not to adjust the guitar track on it's own, but use the tone shaping features to adapt it to the mix. Listen on both speakers and headphones and try to find a setting that works well on both.
- Do the tweaking in small increments. Less is more with mixing. +/- 3dB can make big difference on different audio playback systems, so be carefully not to make some extreme settings. The more extreme settings, the less chance it will work on everybody's playback system properly.

Marek Rojewski:


Rhythm: Great rhythmic structure in this solo. All the important elements are there, and there is a very cool progression towards the end of the solo. I think the playing went very good here, and the only thing I noticed is that the 16th note ascending patterns had some very small timing problems here and there. This could be the problem with different positions used, so it may be wise to rehearse all the positions equally well (some are great, 1 or 2 were not as perfect, but still solid). The very last bit was a nice finish too.
Phrasing: The phrasing in the first part was very good with cool call&response phrase pairs. In the second part there is a build up using pentatonic scale, and that went well too. The last bit was solid as well. My impression as a listener was that the first part could have better connection with the 16th notes. Possible an phrasing effect could be inserted between like a big slide or pick scratching over the strings. Another suggestion may be the use of similar notes in the end of the first part and the beginning of the 16th note part, this would create a more balanced melodic line. As for the finish it was good and effective, but I have the feeling there is one or two notes that are not needed.
Technique: In general, the take was nicely played with solid picking bending and vibrato use. When listening the guitar track I could notice that vibrato is well played, and you are trying to sync it with the tempo as well. However, more control and wider aggressive vibrato would be better. I suggest you focus more on making the vibrato wider. The picking was mostly OK, but as I said before, in the 16th part, you had some difficulties with certain positions. You could spend some time with metronome on these since they are pretty cool, and if you really nail them perfectly they are nice addition to your style whatever you play.
Sound: The guitar track had enough distortion, and perhaps a bit too much as well, cause signal dynamics was restrained. Also, the additional use of overdrive created buzzy character in the sound. EQ could be better for a lead guitar track, and accenting the mids and cutting down the lows bellow 100Hz is what I normally recommend. Another reason for the track being lost in the mix is overuse of reverb. It is too long and too dark so it kills definition and colors the entire track. Try to cut the reverb track separately and focus the sound to one particular sound range, so you don't clash with other instruments in the track. Cutting down the tail would be good as well, cause you use big depth reverberation.

Velvet Roger:

Rhythm: Well played and well structure solo in the first part, but in the second part the structure is a bit lost and the timing goes less good relative to the first part. By watching your video I can see that you have good timing, but the timing issues are caused most probably from both hands being a bit out of sync when playing shorter note passages, and the slow movement by your fretting hand when doing legato techniques. Remember, those slides should be tight and precise as the lightning.
Phrasing: The whole solo has a very nice structure with melodic passages that blend into one another very naturally, I must say I liked the way you build the solo, and then descended down to the root to finish it off, very nice. There are couple of things here that could be better of course. I think the main problem of the whole solo was overuse of notes. You could say what you wanted with less notes than you actually used, some of them didn't carry proper wight. It is always better to be more accurate with playing and accent the proper note right, than to perform several of them with less definition of rhythm and function in relation to the backing. Some degree of freedom is always cool, but here it is happening randomly. The second important thing is the ending. It could be more effective, and although I liked the way you did horizontal movement and descended to the original position, I think this descending move could be done a lot more effective, and with greater sense on where you will go after you come to that position. Again, more notes than needed here as well.
Technique: I like the array of techniques you used in this take, it shows you practice all kinds of different techniques. AP, sweep, arpeggio, scales, legato, bending, vibrato, all was used here to some extent, and this is very nice to see. I think all the things could use fine tuning in general, but bending was the best of them all, it was precise and in pitch. vibrato was good and well used but a bit shallow, gotta make it wider ASAP (since you use it very good). AP & sweep is good, but the picking hand is moving kinda lazy, and you should minimize the movements and control it better. As always, slow practice with metronome helps here. Scale knowledge is good, except I think your fretting hand would move better horizontally if you had a bit more understanding on the scale pattern on the bass notes.
Sound: The sound was well defined and cutting through the mix. There was a too much distortion here so the buzziness and lack of dynamics killed the tone quite a bit. The reason why guitar was so nicely heard is good EQ (although cutting low end would be nice), and because of proper (discrete) use of space FX.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jan 20 2010, 05:39 PM

Ivan thanks for Your feedback! I am happy that overall You enjoyed it, some of things You mentioned I expected, and some are really interesting, new and because of that highly valuable for me, like thinking about note choice while "gluing" different parts of the solo. Vibrato is still quite hard for me, there is a rise of skill, as not so long ago I just could shake the string with my fretting finger, and now it is becoming little wider and controlled, but still far from wide and agressive:P

Cheers and thanks for the collab, it's always nice to participate in those hosted by You.

Posted by: Velvet Roger Jan 20 2010, 11:33 PM

Thanks Ivan for the very useful comments.

The one thing I am currently focussing on completely is a better use of arpeggio's in all kinds of forms in my playing, so I am spending loads of time memorizing all different types and voicings. I am already now seeing the results in terms of using strong notes and less is indeed more in this case

Btw, my guitar is currently at one of the best luthiers in the Netherlands (most famous Dutch guitar players use him) for a total check-up, and I visited the guy while he was still busy with my guitar and the improvement in tone he got out of the guitar is truly amazing (never ever thought that the guitar could be improved that much, as it was already a great guitar beforehand). I might record another take on the backing when I get my guitar back to test it .

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 21 2010, 12:30 AM

Thanks for the Reaper info... I've been having the same issues and wasn't really sure what to do!!! Really appreciate your posting this...

Thanks Ivan for the recording info... I get now what you are telling me about the timing and the use of delay. I will take my time recording now and really look at everything you have pointed out!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 21 2010, 01:48 AM

I'm glad to help mate, and happy to see you on this collab as well. I did enjoyed your take, very nice playing, and the improvement is clearly audible!


I would be happy to comment the second take mate! I appreciate the effort you made of posting video!


You're welcome mate. I'll wait for the other take, and comment on that as well, we can then make some comparisons. I'm sure it will sound awesome!

Posted by: Berglmir Jan 21 2010, 01:05 PM

Sure thing! And take a look here as well:
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=32563

Tonymiro has given same very interessting insights regarding encoders and stuff.

I´m not happy with my skills but at least my rendering sounds the way I´m playing

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 22 2010, 06:43 AM

Tonymiro has given same very interessting insights regarding encoders and stuff.

I´m not happy with my skills but at least my rendering sounds the way I´m playing
[/quote]


I'm right there with you at least I can fix my sound, while I work on my skill!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 23 2010, 04:50 PM

Berglmir

Rhythm: Nicely played with a good sense for timing. The thing that bothered me the most here is the fact that you used too many 8th notes. During the whole take there are 8th notes, and although some of them are played in the shuffled manner, it still doesn't make up for the inevitable repetitive effect. The last faster sequence was note properly controlled and the notes are not defined well rhythmically. When practicing, try to practice everything using all kinds of different note durations, this will help to break out of the 8th notes a bit.
Phrasing: There are some cool phrases in this take, and they are mostly within the pentatonic scale. This itself is very nice, and structurally it all fits in very nicely, but the problem here is the connection of the solo guitar with rhythm guitar. As you know, rhythm guitar plays certain chords that contain certain notes, and for solo guitar it would be best to function within those changes in a proper manner. This is mainly done by gravitating towards those strong notes, and forming a melody that is revolving around those important chordal notes. You don't have to form the whole melody like this, but for starters it would be good to focus on the landing notes, and make the a bit more connected to the chords beneath.
Technique: Nicely played take with lots of artificial harmonics that complement the take in a very cool manner. Vibratos could be better controlled and better used, I think they were a bit too fast and nervous here. The speedpicking part in the end needs a lot more refinement, since the half of the notes came out undefined. It would be much better to use simple 8th triad run and snug the notes carefully within the bar so they lead to the root in a more defined way. Better muting would help as well since you had huge amounts of gain (and noise) present.
Sound: Sound is OK in this, and I like the use of wah, not too often I hear one on collads. However, I think you used too much distortion and the sound was fizzy with evident lack of dynamics.

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 23 2010, 06:23 PM

Berglmir,
I've downloaded Foobar... but can't open the file. I've dug around the forums and FAQ's but no answers...? Is there a trick to opening this file? O.K. I think what is needed is the torrent file opener found here...http://www.bittorrent.com/


I don't know how to Render from Foobar... I've got the FLAC file open and palying but how do I render from there?

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 23 2010, 07:23 PM

Alright Ivan,
Here we go. I eliminated all delay and used reverb as a plugin (sparingly I think). I actually tried to count the beats as I played (1234,2234,3234...) It really helped me to target the final beat of the song, as well as pointing out where I was really off beat. I have a lot of work to do in this area :lol: I started with a kind of bluesy approach, plenty of double stops, and I also slowed everything down to what I could pick! I practiced without plugging in and I'm trying to "compose" a melody that can stand on it's own. This helped me by keeping my focus on the melody, and not the amplified, delayed... effect ridden guitar sounds . I am easily distracted by all of the effects and it's really good for me to get to the basics, melody and tone! So I've spent some time also working on the tone qualities, this is challenging me. I'm working on rendering more accurate sound with advice from berglmir... almost figured out how to do it. This is an area that I need to spend some real time working on also, so much to work on... and so little time

So here is take #2, again honest feedback only.. (you don't want me to slack do you?)

Having some more last minute issues... I'll post these takes ASAP...

Sorry guys... will have to re-post tomorrow morning ...

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 24 2010, 04:49 PM

OK, I'll wait for the second take!

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 24 2010, 06:44 PM

Sorry for the wait... I got stuck with the recording/rendering issues and had to run to coach my sons football football game. It was great! This team they played had beat them pretty bad just three weeks ago and started name calling and really taunting(cussing too ) towards my son's team. Remember these guys are only 8 years old Anyway we beat 'em... which felt really great since the other team came on the field all full of attitude and put downs and then at half time they got real quiet as they were held to no score and were down by two touchdowns!!!! Needless to say we told them what a great game it was, and how they had played well!

Ok ..back here to business. There is so much work to do and only one week between takes... so I've made some changes, as noted above. I know there is still lots to do but I know I'm moving in the right direction. I have to share that by counting out the beats, I recognized one huge problem I was facing. At one point I want to play licks that just couldn't keep time ... well i was trying to play triplets Now I will have to work on practicing with the metronome. So here it is. I'm having real issues recording so there is some hiss even with a noise gate... and over all recording levels seem off...

Posted by: Ruzz Jan 24 2010, 08:55 PM

Hello Ivan!

This was a great backing and I think I have made an okay solo for it
Our talk on the videochat last night gave me some ideas on what to play..
I am looking forward to hearing what you think of it..
I might go for another take later this week if I have the time..

http://www.box.net/shared/rz5bl8r8jp
http://www.box.net/shared/befttrulm9

Posted by: ruben_mcn Jan 25 2010, 12:04 AM

Hi there Ivan here is my take hope u enjoy it ( can u give me some critics about my soloing ?? )

[attachment=20008:IVan_2_backing.mp3]

[attachment=20009:IVan_2_no_backing.mp3]

Posted by: Berglmir Jan 25 2010, 12:38 AM

I obviously did not make myself clear - sorry!
I don NOT render from Foobar2000!
I render from REAPER -> into FLAC. It means I don´t use wav or mp3 as output format of my take but Flac instead.
When I open foobar2000 and open my Reaper take I can right cklick on it and CONVERT it into mp3.

That´s how it works for me!
Sorry for any misunderstanding & hope it works out now!

Cheers

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 25 2010, 01:53 AM

Hammerhead:

No problem mate, I'm glad things went well on the game This new take already sounds much better, you are mostly in time and playing some very interesting phrases. I like how you used repetition in the solo, and the first part had a nice development in the second part with those melodies. In general, the take was good with a good firm effective ending. The thing that bothered me a lot is the sound of you take. It has so much noise and it was very low quality, very squashed. I'm not exactly sure what may be wrong there, but if you could tell me the gear you used to create this sound we can discuss about it.



Ruzz

Rhythm: Excellent rhythmical structure, with notes that are clearly developing as the solo progresses towards the end. All the notes were placed nicely within the bar, and had proper weight. The thing that I don't like is the fact that you used and accented too many notes here and there. For example you picked a lot of times one note several times while fretting it. It would be cool to just let it ring and create a little longer note duration at that point to break away from the usual rhythmical structure.
Phrasing: Great main theme in the beginning that is developing quite nicely. Very melodic and nicely made solo. What bothered me a bit is the use of the outside notes in some places. I think it doesn't sound very logical to use them. Also, the very ending has two same bended notes one after another, so a more effective leading into that bended note is needed to make it sound more fluid.
Technique: Very nicely played take with very good attention to tone control and muting. Very nice and clean. The only part you had some problems with is the 16th note part in the end which could come out more cleaner in my opinion.
Sound: Your sounds was very nice and smooth in this take, however I think you used too big reverb time, and it colored the tone quite a bit. Lowering down the reverb time (and level) will reduce the effect of reverb coloration of guitar tone.

ruben_mcn

Rhythm: Rhythmically the take was solid, with good attention to timing. Your timing was nice and accentuated most of the drum groove. The problem with your soloing here is the fact that you used too many 8th notes, and very similar patterns throughout the solo. This created a repetitive feeling for me as a listener, and I believe that the solo should have at least one "breakout" part where you play some triplets. I think 8th triplets would fit in nicely here, and it doesn't even have to be some very hard sequence, any will do the job, even 2-3 note one. The ending of the solo came out ineffective because you didn't finish when the backing ended, but instead continued to play the solo, trying to pull of a bluesy kind of a finishing that was a bit off with timing, and again using similar rhythmic pattern as before. Definitely have to create more contrast between different rhythmical parts within the solo, by altering note duration use.
Phrasing: Very similar observation comes for the melodic aspect of your playing. The phrases all sounded look-alike. Although there were some nice licks involved, I believe that you could pay more attention on the strong notes of the chords in the backing and accent them properly as the chord progression is moving. This would mean a lot to your playing because the solo would have more connection with the backing. If you take away the backing, you can hardly understand why you play the notes you play and what is the progression, so this is why it is important to accent the chord notes and understand how to connect with the music you play on top of. Learning chords and arpeggios will help a lot there.
Technique: Nicely played take. Although there isn't anything wrong specifically with it, by listening to your solo guitar track, I noticed that everything is played a bit sloppy/slow. Those notes and pickings has to be more tighter and with more precise execution, so in general I recommend more time with metronome on slow tempos, and building up gradually the speed.
Sound: The sound had way too much distortion, lots of buzzing and noise. If you cut down the distortion to at least half, on the EQ cut everything bellow 200Hz with a high pass filter, and cut above 5000Hz with low pass filter, and accent the mids just a bit, you will get much more defined tone.

Posted by: JVM Jan 25 2010, 06:02 AM

Hi Ivan, I am recently trying to incorporate some faster playing to my improvisation but it has always been hit or miss with me. Let me know what you think of this first take.

 classicrock1.mp3 ( 1.19MB ) : 185

 classicrock1NOBT.mp3 ( 670.54K ) : 174

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 25 2010, 06:39 AM

Ivan,
Thank you for offering to help me with my sound! I almost did not submit a take because the sound is so terrible But I thought that I should at least turn in something, even if I'm very unhappy with it, rather than nothing at all.

I record using Reaper. I plug straight from my guitar (YJM Stratocaster, neck pickup) into my Tonelab LE. From there into my sound card (Audio Kontrol 1). From there into my DAW. I can't seem to pull together a sound that is any good. I run out to my marshall 4x12 cab. At the moment I'm not using an amp head to record.

I have been so upset with this terrible sound that for this last take that I simply used a clean sound from the Tone lab (no effects), and relied on Guitar Rig (LE?) for any distortion and reverb, and a noise gate. It seems to have made it worse

It seems that everything I record comes off as thin and buzzing I've even used the guitar rig EQ.. it seems to help some, but it all just sounds BAD.

What do you think?

I've just taken the strings off of my guitar and think I might install a 5 way switch (it came with a three way switch) tomorrow if I can find the time. I don't think this will help me really but I'm very frustrated and it couldn't hurt.

Posted by: Berglmir Jan 25 2010, 10:08 AM

As always thanks for your effort in this collab and your feedback on my take.
A few question I have to ask to fully get your meaning (and thus be able to improve myself):
-) Regarding "the connection of the solo guitar with rhythm guitar" - are you saying that the solo sounds "wrong"? Can you explain a bit more what exactly you mean with "connection". I know there are some lessons about this here at GMC (will have to check them out),

-) Vibrato = my Waterloo! I know it´s too fast and nervous - that´s mainly because when I´m playing I have the feeling I don´t have time to do wide and slower vibrato.....I´m working on it (actually I´m trying to cover some David Gilmoure & G. Moore solos )

-) About the fast run at the end: I´m afraid you lost me there! I think it sounds quite cool. Could you please explain what you mean by "un/defined"? Would be a great help.

-) I also thought it would be cool to use a Wah on this take - as I don´t use real amps and pedals/boxes atm it´s all software simulated - maybe the sound got a bit "washed out" by using the wah?

If you have time to make a short comment I will try to put all your tips into a second take!
Cheers mate - highly appreciated!!!!

Posted by: Hammerhead Jan 25 2010, 08:12 PM

Thanks Berglmir I will try the right click method. I was able to do everything up to the render into mp3 from the open FLAC. I'll try this and let you know if I'm still stuck. Thanks again for this tip! I am trying desperately to fix my BROKEN tone this is part of the problem... not not all of it for sure!

Posted by: jafomatic Jan 27 2010, 10:32 PM

Someone recorded takes a couple weeks ago and figured he would decide to think about them and upload them the next day. Someone forgot to do that. That someone is me

 IMCR_T5_full.mp.mp3 ( 1.28MB ) : 181

 IMCR_T5_solo.mp3 ( 1.28MB ) : 169

Posted by: Ruzz Jan 29 2010, 04:37 PM

Hey Ivan

I changed my take a bit.. Think it is somewhat better now..
Not as many "outside" notes..

http://www.box.net/shared/g7v3d9xst8
http://www.box.net/shared/5prvt82euo

Posted by: Sensible Jones Jan 29 2010, 08:56 PM

Ivan, are you OK if I post mine tomorrow? (Sat)


Here it is, sorry if it's held you up Ivan!
[attachment=20043:Ivan_Cla...Rock_wbt.mp3]
[attachment=20044:Ivan_Cla...Rock_nbt.mp3]

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Feb 1 2010, 03:12 AM

JVM

Rhythm: Very cool rhythmic patterns in the first part and good development from slower to fast as the solo progresses towards the end. One thing that I must comment on is unprecise timing in the second part. It is good to try to play faster, but it would be even more effective to play all the phrases precisely within the bar. This adds that feel of well and effective played solo. With these fast phrases I recommend just playing these fast sequences with the metronome very slowly so you get the feel where the notes are in the bar. Then you can connect them together and form a great solo.
Phrasing: Great start with call & response phrases. Later on in the second part, the phrasing becomes non-structured on moments with no clear definition of notes played, and connection with the backing. The ending is good, and I can suggest finishing on octave higher, as most of the notes used in the second part were higher than the root played in the end.
Technique: Well played take. The notes in the second part could be a bit more defined, and you need to work on your muting technique as well to make it as tight as you can. In general, it is very good, and with some practice and understanding of timing of these notes and some additional muting, it would be excellent.
Sound: The overdrive ammount was good, but the tone color isn't. Although it doesn't buzz, it lacks top end very much, and it is muddy, not cutting well through the mix. I suggest cuting the bass bellow 100Hz with HP filter, and accenting the hi-mid-high region a bit. Lowering down the volume should be done too, because the take was clipping.

Jafo:

Rhythm: Very good and interesting view on the rhythm in this take. I like the staccato style in the first part, and the absence of it in the second part, nice idea. Everything was very good, but I must say your take would be even better if you kept the timing a bit more precise throughout. So in general, it's all well, but the timing needs some refinement. i would also like to hear some longer notes in this solo as well, to break the structure a bit.
Phrasing: Very nice use of pentatonic scale, and good rocking licks throughout the solo. Everything is in place, nicely connected with the backing, and tightly structured. Since you went on octave higher in the second part it sounded cool, but in the end I still got a small impression that some licks were repeated slightly more than needed. In addition to that, I didn't like the second phrase in the take was cuttoff sharply towards the end. I think in general the take was good, but it lacks fluidness here and there, probably because it was made from several parts which broke the connection a bit.
Technique: Nicely played, with good sense for muting. However, some phrases sounded a bit too much staccato-ish. Fluid playing is very important and in the pick must make fluid and minimal movements, with great attention on cutting down those micropauses between the notes while practicing.
Sound: The tone is good and punchy I like it. The crunchy tone has some buzz but it's small issue. The auto-pan effect was interesting, but slightly exaggerated. It made the guitar position a bit undefined in the mix for me from a listeners perspective.

Sensible Jones:

Rhythm: Very solid and straightforward playing. I like the whole take and timing is nice and balanced, but I think you could implement more diversity in terms of note durations that are being used. longer note here and there, and possibly some short but effective burst in the middle could make wonders and break out of the 8th routines found here. Even implementing longer triplets liek quarter or 8th ones would sound cool and refreshing.
Phrasing: Good use of pentatonic scale, and fluid movements throughout the take. The very last note was not that good choice IMO, and could be played more accurately. I general, I think it was played good, with good sense for note landings and structuring. My advice would be to try to use more diatonic pattern notes, to create richer melodic content, and to invest some time in practicing longer diagonal diatonic and pentatonic movements and arpeggios, it will help you greatly to increase the quality.
Technique: Well played, and nicely muted. During the take you had this lazy feel which I think wasn't really needed, but it turned out nicely, didn't bothered me in the end. I just think the feel could be more on or even forward instead of behind the beat. Bends were good, except the last one, but they were a bit lazy too, so I recommend making them more sharper and aggressive for that rock vibe.
Sound: The tone was cutting well through the mix, and it was in front of the backing nicely. I think the overdrive was the biggest issue here, it was fizzy and buzzy, and probably overdone. I think lowering the gain knob, and EQing a bit (removing low end completely) would sound very nicely.

Posted by: jafomatic Feb 2 2010, 05:18 PM

Timing just recently became an issue in this and in Emir's similar (for me) collaboration which is very interesting. I'm experiencing some hesitation while playing because I am forcing myself to remember to stick (mostly) to pentatonics for what I'm feeling is the way to handle the style requested. That choice is not anyone's fault but my own AND it's highlighted an interesting weakness if that's really what's happening.

Regarding repeated licks, it's one BIG lick that has a small change in the middle but is otherwise totally the same in both uses. I tried to vary that one for its second appearance (along with the pickup switch) but I agree it still sounds like excess repetition. The solo is playable in one take but I never got both halves "good enough" in the same take, so I cut two takes together. It sounds a lot more fluid where I get it all in one take --I may have even rendered it that way a couple times-- but I didn't like the those as much.

I'll see what I can do about the staccato issue. I need to find a balance somewhere that I'm not allowing too much legato either, which is an old habit I seem to have broken.

For sound, I don't use an autopan but(!) I do always have some kind of stereo effect in use: stereo delay or stereo chorus or stereo flange, and any one of those may have been set for too-high a mix level and thus too distinct.

As always, thanks for taking the time to make all these notes for us man, I really appreciate the feedback.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Feb 2 2010, 05:49 PM

Thanks Ivan, great advice as always! I'm starting to work on getting some more speed together so that I can get some variation like you say, as well as working on some more 'diagonal' patterns!
As for the EQ-ing, what would you recommend as being the best way to do it?
If I'm using Amplitube 1 would you just roll the Bass down a bit or add the Parametric EQ and use that or even a Graphic Equaliser VST? I'm slowly getting the hang of how to use it all!
Thanks again for the time you put into this!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Feb 6 2010, 06:43 PM

1) connecting the instruments to work together is very important in music, and the relationships that notes create are what is the essence of harmony. If one instrument plays one note, and other instrument other note, these two notes form a bond together. There are many different kinds of "bonds", these would be known as intervals. For you to make a good connection to the backing, you have to examine the actual chords that are being played. All chords contain certain notes, and those notes would be the strong notes, or the notes that are important to you as a musician who plays on top of them. How you use these strong notes in your playing, and what other notes beside them you will use is of course a very personal matter, but it is important that your playing works side by side with the chords. Connecting using strong notes is what counts in this case.

2) regarding vibrato, take a metronome and practice it slowly, practice makes perfect as anything else.

3) The last fast-picked part came out undefined because it was played a bit sloppy and the timing wasn't quite right. I liked the ending, but think it can be even more effective.

4) Possibly, but I'm quite certain there was too much distortion so that was "washing out" the tone IMHO.



This is great improvement I like it very much! Great intro theme and after that in the second part you focused on the notes that are in the key, so you can really see how the solo came out very effective. The only little thing that could be better is the faster sequence towards the end, it shold had very tight timing and the solo will sound professional. Great job.



Thanks a lot for this feedback my friend, I agree with everything you wrote. It seems that you very well understand where the problems and advantages may be. I'll be seeing you on some next collab I hope, possibly some more effects experimenting!

Posted by: Berglmir Feb 7 2010, 12:09 AM

Thanks for time & effort to explain your feedback in more detail - I will take care of these things in future collabs!
THANKS muchly!!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Feb 7 2010, 12:39 AM

You're welcome mate, I'm glad to help in any way. Thanks