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GMC Forum _ Theory (Muris) _ Basic And Extended Chords

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 1 2008, 04:26 PM

Hello Muris,
I was studying Andrew's extended chords lesson but the added notes part is still missing.
I know there are 9th, 11th and 13th chords,
but I also bumped into add9, add11 and add13 chords.
Now, the first three are obtained adding thirds to a 7th chord, right?
But what happens with those add chords?
Do you simply "add" a 9th, or 11th or 13th? And if so, to what?
Hope this makes sense...
Thank you

Posted by: Muris Feb 1 2008, 05:28 PM

Good question Eddie.

9th chord contains 7th inside,it's called 9th chord cause 9th is the higher note.
Same with 11th,it has 7th,9th and 11th.
Same thing with 13th as well,we simply build it using thirds and up the scale.
Of course,ALL these chords have root,3rd and 5th.
You're probably asking,how to play all those notes together,I have only 6 strings?
Well,we kick out some notes,usually 5th,sometimes even 3rd. wink.gif

Add chords,it means that we simply add 9th,11th or 13th,whatever.
We add it on main chord which has root,3rd and 5th.
Per example,G11 chord has notes G,B,D,F,A and C(notice that minor 7th interval is displayed as 7th,
major 7th would be maj7,F#)
And Gadd11 would be, G,B,D and right onto C,no 7th and 9th between.
Hope this clears things a bit. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 1 2008, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 1 2008, 05:28 PM) *
Good question Eddie.

9th chord contains 7th inside,it's called 9th chord cause 9th is the higher note.
Same with 11th,it has 7th,9th and 11th.
Same thing with 13th as well,we simply build it using thirds and up the scale.
Of course,ALL these chords have root,3rd and 5th.
You're probably asking,how to play all those notes together,I have only 6 strings?
Well,we kick out some notes,usually 5th,sometimes even 3rd. wink.gif

Add chords,it means that we simply add 9th,11th or 13th,whatever.
We add it on main chord which has root,3rd and 5th.
Per example,G11 chord has notes G,B,D,F,A and C(notice that minor 7th interval is displayed as 7th,
major 7th would be maj7,F#)
And Gadd11 would be, G,B,D and right onto C,no 7th and 9th between.
Hope this clears things a bit. smile.gif


Thank you Muris,
this clears a lot...
One more question: the 7th interval is always minor (unless specified) for 9, 11,and 13 major chords?

Posted by: Muris Feb 1 2008, 05:55 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Feb 1 2008, 05:51 PM) *
Thank you Muris,
this clears a lot...
One more question: the 7th interval is always minor (unless specified) for 9, 11,and 13 major chords?


When you see maj7th,then it's major 7th interval.
Per exmaple,G7/9 and Gmaj7/9.
You can write this G7/9 as G9 only cause minor 7th is included(different rules/schools)
but if its major 7th then you have to write it extra.

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 1 2008, 06:09 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 1 2008, 05:55 PM) *
When you see maj7th,then it's major 7th interval.
Per exmaple,G7/9 and Gmaj7/9.
You can write this G7/9 as G9 only cause minor 7th is included(different rules/schools)
but if its major 7th then you have to write it extra.


Perfect, got it! And the same applies for minor chords, right?
Very kind of you.

Posted by: Muris Feb 1 2008, 06:32 PM

Yep,same rules,only opposite to 7th,major 3rd is included,minor needs to be written extra
but you know that already I'm sure. wink.gif

You're welcome Eddie. smile.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 2 2008, 03:23 AM

Hi Eddie - looks like I will have to write this lesson soon smile.gif

Posted by: Muris Feb 2 2008, 03:25 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 2 2008, 03:23 AM) *
Hi Eddie - looks like I will have to write this lesson soon smile.gif


Ohh,I'm sure you already wrote it somewhere Andrew,
man sometimes forgets his own work!! smile.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 2 2008, 03:29 AM

Well, when you get as old bent and gray as me, sometimes it is hard to remember laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Muris Feb 2 2008, 03:34 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 2 2008, 03:29 AM) *
Well, when you get as old bent and gray as me, sometimes it is hard to remember laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


laugh.gif
Well,looking at your lessons AND amp building progress,
I would say you have many more productive years ahead. wink.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 2 2008, 03:41 AM

Phew, its a relief to hear you say so Muris - I thought I was consigned to the scrap heap for a while smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 2 2008, 09:18 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 2 2008, 03:23 AM) *
Hi Eddie - looks like I will have to write this lesson soon smile.gif


Didn't mean bad, Andrew! Good morning, BTW. smile.gif
It's just that I was studying your extended chords lesson
and was eager to understand the difference between plain 9, 11, 13 and "adds".
I saw you on the Xmas video and you don't look bent and grey to me,
so don't find excuses, you lazy instructor! laugh.gif
Your theory board is amazing and makes music theory so much fun
that plese take ALL the time you need to write your new lessons down
as long as you keep up the great quality! Thank you always...

For Muris: yesterday's explanations were just perfect. Thank you.

Eddie

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 2 2008, 01:47 PM

Heh, thanks Eddie, glad you like them smile.gif I will write that lesson next though, I promise (even though Muris did a great job of explaining!)

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 2 2008, 09:02 PM

Hy Muris, hope all is well.
My question here is very simple:
let's take a 9, 11, 13 chord, they are called like that
because the 9th, 11th, 13th are the highest note.
But are they also ALWAYS the highest note played on the guitar?
I hope you see my point.
Thank you.
Cheers
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 3 2008, 01:44 AM

Usually they are highest,per example if you play 9th in octave lower you'd get 2nd,
11th would be 4th,13th'd be 6th etc.
In other words,9th should be 9 degrees from the root while some other notes
might be higher than the 9th,per example 3rd,5th etc,depends of grip.
But if you pull 9th an octave lower it'd be 2nd and you'll be missing the sound of 9th,
that's the deal. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 3 2008, 08:54 AM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 3 2008, 01:44 AM) *
Usually they are highest,per example if you play 9th in octave lower you'd get 2nd,
11th would be 4th,13th'd be 6th etc.
In other words,9th should be 9 degrees from the root while some other notes
might be higher than the 9th,per example 3rd,5th etc,depends of grip.
But if you pull 9th an octave lower it'd be 2nd and you'll be missing the sound of 9th,
that's the deal. smile.gif


Perfect!
I start to find harmony very interesting...
Thank you

Posted by: Muris Feb 3 2008, 02:53 PM

You're welcome Eddie,glad you're interested into theory! smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 3 2008, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 3 2008, 02:53 PM) *
You're welcome Eddie,glad you're interested into theory! smile.gif


Ok, I know I might be a bugger,
but I was wondering:
when it comes to chords do you do them automatically (you memorised shapes)
or do you actually "build" them "thinking" of the relationship between notes?
Do you understand what I mean? dry.gif
Also, do you always use all the six strings (apart from powerchords)?
And if not, why?
Thank you
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 3 2008, 03:13 PM

I combine shapes I've learned before and I make them "in a walk" using proper notes.
Depends of chord and sound to determine now many strings I'd use for chord.
Sometimes it's 3,4,5,6 including skipping here and there,
per example I play lower note(usually root) on low E or A
and I do rest of the chord on top 3 strings,sort of things,no strict rule. smile.gif

Good practice is to play whole progression using one position,3 or 4 frets,
that'll help you understanding chords and their relations. wink.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 3 2008, 03:19 PM

Good practice is to play whole progression using one position,3 or 4 frets,
that'll help you understanding chords and their relations. wink.gif
[/quote]

This is a great hint!!! blink.gif
What a wonderful exercise...
Got it!

Thanx

Posted by: Muris Feb 3 2008, 03:20 PM

You're welcome Eddie biggrin.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 4 2008, 01:15 AM

Hey Eddie & Muris - you guys inspired me to write my latest chords lesson smile.gif

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=11531

Posted by: Muris Feb 4 2008, 01:47 AM

Hey hey,lesson is great,I'm sure many members will benefit A LOT from it,
thumbs up Andrew,good job!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Feb 4 2008, 02:00 AM

Thanks Muris!

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 4 2008, 11:34 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 4 2008, 02:00 AM) *
Thanks Muris!


Feels nice to have inspired someone.
Usually the only one inspired by me is my dog
when I take him for a walk and he does what he needs to! laugh.gif
Great lesson Andrew,
now it's even clearer!

Thank you very much,
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 4 2008, 12:00 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Feb 4 2008, 11:34 AM) *
Feels nice to have inspired someone.
Usually the only one inspired by me is my dog
when I take him for a walk and he does what he needs to! laugh.gif
Great lesson Andrew,
now it's even clearer!

Thank you very much,
Eddie


laugh.gif Doggy,doggy biggrin.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 13 2008, 07:30 AM

Hello Muris,
I hope you're doing fine with your new album,
and I really hope you'll be satisfied with the result.
I'm sure it will come out great!

My question: I was trying to do the exercise you suggested,
creating chords in the same position on the fretboard.
It's not easy, and it takes long to figure out the notes,
but how do I decide what notes to leave out
when it comes to extended chords and chords in general?
I hope you understand my question.

All the best and good luck with your recordings.
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 13 2008, 05:29 PM

I was actually thinking of basic chords Eddie,majors and minors.
With extended ones it's another story but main thing is to play
root note and the note that clarifies it,9th,11th etc.
You you can leave out 5th,3rd etc,depends of the grip. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 13 2008, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 13 2008, 05:29 PM) *
I was actually thinking of basic chords Eddie,majors and minors.
With extended ones it's another story but main thing is to play
root note and the note that clarifies it,9th,11th etc.
You you can leave out 5th,3rd etc,depends of the grip. smile.gif


Oh, ok! Good to know!
I was starting to get a little depressed!
I'll just stick to majors and minors then...
BTW, I'm working on your contest. wink.gif
Thanks!

Bye

Posted by: Muris Feb 14 2008, 03:29 AM

That's great Eddie,I'm sure your take will be quite interesting!! smile.gif

I know that cause you did some nice improvisations over my lessons so far. biggrin.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 14 2008, 06:51 AM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 14 2008, 03:29 AM) *
That's great Eddie,I'm sure your take will be quite interesting!! smile.gif

I know that cause you did some nice improvisations over my lessons so far. biggrin.gif


Thank you! Wow! I'll do my best! rolleyes.gif

One question: can you edit the topic title and change it to "basic and extended chords"?
I'm asking you this because I don't want to start too many threads (I'm afraid to get lost)
and I would like to post here all my questions about chords in general,
a bit like my "4 basic scales" thread.
If you can't I'll just start a "basic chords" thread.

Thank you.

Posted by: Muris Feb 14 2008, 08:39 AM

Done. wink.gif

I see you're lot into theory lately Eddie,I'm damn glad!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 19 2008, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 14 2008, 08:39 AM) *
Done. wink.gif

I see you're lot into theory lately Eddie,I'm damn glad!! biggrin.gif


Hy Muris, your Mixo Riffing is great! I'm really loving it, and it's great for my timing!
Now to chords: I'm trying to do your 1 position chords exercise
and I was wondering, do you think it's also a good idea
to play different chords and to try to get used to the sound of them?
I did a little backing track with drums and only a bass in C (root+5th, without 3rd)
and I played C and Cmin all the time and I am getting used to the "sound" of these.
Do you think it's a good idea to just play chords
and trying to memorise the soud of them?
Also, is there a reason why you left out the 5th of E min in the Mixo riffing?

Thank you

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 20 2008, 01:26 AM

It's always good to play chords alone Eddie,why not. smile.gif
Remember one thing,whatever you're playing=you're learning something.
Just keep it up. wink.gif

About that "croped" Em7.
It's Em7 tho,not just Em,right? blink.gif
So,it's classic "rocking" grip for min7 chord,
root-(5th out)-min7th and min 3rd(in octave).
It's classic grip when you have some distortion ON,
adding 5th would make some mess,try it and you'll see.
With 5th inside you have one 3rd interval(from 5th to 7th)
and usually it doesn't come out nicely with on distorted sounds.

But if you're using clean sound,well,that's another story,
feel free to play as many 3rds as you like. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 20 2008, 08:32 AM

[quote name='Muris' date='Feb 20 2008, 01:26 AM' post='141333']
It's always good to play chords alone Eddie,why not. smile.gif
Remember one thing,whatever you're playing=you're learning something.
Just keep it up. wink.gif

About that "croped" Em7.
It's Em7 tho,not just Em,right? blink.gif


Oh, yes! Emin7 because of the note D!
And you are right (of course), I tried playing the 5th too
with distortion and it was really messy!
But clean it's beautiful!
Thank you

I'll be back soon with more chords questions!


Posted by: eddiecat Feb 20 2008, 10:17 AM

Hy Muris, here's my second post this morning! dry.gif
As you know I'm doing your Mixo riff lesson
and I came up with this:  minor_3rd.mp3 ( 159.59K ) : 250


Now, trying to see what note it is (it's the last in the riff)
I saw that it is a minor 3rd, and not a major 3rd like in the Mixo mode.
Now, with a power chord no problems, since it doesn't have a 3rd,
but if I was to strum along would I have to shift briefly from A7 to A min?
Or are there other chords to highlight that minor 3rd?
And on the G part, could I also play a Gmaj7 because of the F# in the riff?
And a bit off topic, why does that note sound good to me even if the minor 3rd is out of scale?

Hope you see my point.
Cheers

Posted by: Muris Feb 20 2008, 01:38 PM

This is sort of mix of A Mixolydian and A Dorian. smile.gif

You play C# on A string 4th fret and then C on G string 5th fret.
Nothing wrong here,it's sounds damn rockin'. wink.gif
And the only difference between Mixolyidian and Dorian is the 3rd btw.
So you can shift between major and minor 3rd without making lot of mess,
if you do it wisely of course.
Sometimes you can use C as a passing note to C#,try that one as well.
Gmaj7 chord is included in both A Mixo and A Dorian,nothing wrong in there too. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 22 2008, 10:30 PM

Hy Muris, hope all is well...
I was practicing 7th chords,
and I came up with a simple progression that I like very much:
it's Amaj7, Amaj7, Fmaj7, Cmaj7...
I did a little BT and played A ionian over Amaj7
and then C ionian over Fmaj7 and Cmaj7. Anything wrong?
Could you please tell me what scales and why
you would use over such a progression?
Thank you.
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 23 2008, 02:26 AM

Hello Eddie. smile.gif

I see you're on some theory boost,you've started to combine keys,modulations,well done!!
So with Amaj7 you're in key of A( A Ionian works perfect),
and with Fmaj7 and Cmaj7 you're in key of C,4th and first degrees (C Ionian is perfect here).
Your progression is Amaj7-Amaj7-Fmaj7-Cmaj7.
Now try with using Fmaj7 instead of Cmaj7 but still use C Ionian(A Aeolian) over it.
See/hear the result and share your thoughts with me. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 23 2008, 06:48 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 23 2008, 02:26 AM) *
Hello Eddie. smile.gif

I see you're on some theory boost,you've started to combine keys,modulations,well done!!
So with Amaj7 you're in key of A( A Ionian works perfect),
and with Fmaj7 and Cmaj7 you're in key of C,4th and first degrees (C Ionian is perfect here).
Your progression is Amaj7-Amaj7-Fmaj7-Cmaj7.
Now try with using Fmaj7 instead of Cmaj7 but still use C Ionian(A Aeolian) over it.
See/hear the result and share your thoughts with me. smile.gif


Hy Muris, so here I am with my impression of the C Ionian (A Aeolian)
over the new progression:
at first I didn't notice anything while playing,
but then I started feeling that something was somehow missing,
that it didn't resolve, or close...
So I said to myself: the first progression "closed" in C,
but this time it closes in F, so let's try keeping C Ionian over the first Fmaj7
and then let's modulate to F Ionian (C mixolydian (5th degree of F) or A Phrygian (3rd degree of F))
letting the Bb get heard and let's see what happens.
To me it sounded good, especially if using the Bb at the end before returning to A Ionian.
Does it make sense? Please tell me if this choice is wrong!!!
Thank you, Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 24 2008, 04:15 AM

That's another cool progression and scale choice there Eddie,
as long as it sounds ok,you're on good track. smile.gif
You said it well,staying on F doesn't resolve the piece,
gives it more tension. wink.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 24 2008, 11:33 AM

Ok Muris, this is just an idea of what we talked about.
I played A Ionian over the Amaj7 chord
and then C Ionian over the Fmaj chord but modulating at the end in F Ionian.
Is it correct? blink.gif
Thank you. Eddie


 Amaj7_Fmaj7.mp3 ( 711.43K ) : 185
 

Posted by: Muris Feb 24 2008, 02:15 PM

I would prefer to say in C Ionian over Fmaj7,that Bb adds some de-stability to whole sound imho.
But I can not say that it's wrong or correct,
music theory is there just to explain what we are playing,that's all. smile.gif
If you like it,you keep it,that's your music Eddie. wink.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 24 2008, 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 24 2008, 02:15 PM) *
I would prefer to say in C Ionian over Fmaj7,that Bb adds some de-stability to whole sound imho.
But I can not say that it's wrong or correct,
music theory is there just to explain what we are playing,that's all. smile.gif
If you like it,you keep it,that's your music Eddie. wink.gif


I see what you mean with that Bb, and listening to it now I think you are right,
it would be better to stick to C Ionian.
So, in other words, the scale we choose to use
on a given chord depends on our taste?
I mean, in this case the second half plays an Fmaj7 with an F in the bass,
so in theory both F Ionian (I) and C Ionian (IV) would be "correct" or "possible", right?
So is it just up to our taste which one we choose?
Thank you.

Oh! I almost forgot to ask you: why did you suggest
that I replace that C maj7 with an Fmaj7?
Was there something particular you wanted me to notice?
Cheers

Posted by: Muris Feb 24 2008, 07:24 PM

Just like that,you fit it to your taste,that's all about music. smile.gif

I think I answered to that Cmaj7 question above somewhere.
Cmaj7 kind a resolves it while with Fmaj7 is sounds more smooth,kind of.
Actually it sounds more Lydian,to be precise. biggrin.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 24 2008, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 24 2008, 07:24 PM) *
Just like that,you fit it to your taste,that's all about music. smile.gif

I think I answered to that Cmaj7 question above somewhere.
Cmaj7 kind a resolves it while with Fmaj7 is sounds more smooth,kind of.
Actually it sounds more Lydian,to be precise. biggrin.gif


Oooh! I think I got it!
When I play C Ionian over those two Fmaj7 chords with the bass in F
as a matter of fact I'm playing F Lydian! (they share the same notes)
Right?

Cheers,
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Feb 24 2008, 09:24 PM

Yep,that's F Lydian,masked as C Ionian. wink.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Feb 24 2008, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 24 2008, 09:24 PM) *
Yep,that's F Lydian,masked as C Ionian. wink.gif


Sorry for being so slow,
but these are my first steps into the world of chords and modes!
Only now I understand how many hints you gave me!
But I'll keep working hard...
Thank you

Eddie

P.S.: I'll be back soon with more dumb questions!

Good night

Posted by: Muris Feb 24 2008, 10:38 PM

Those are NOT dumb questions at all Eddie,keep asking,
I'm glad to help,keep diving into sea of theory! smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 11 2008, 07:21 PM

Hey Muris!
Thanks so much for that Jazz Swing Rhythm lesson!
I can't play it, but I love the fact that you always put the root note of the chords
as the lowest note, it makes it a lot easier to study how they are constructed (intervals etc.)
and it's great to start getting into different tricky extended chords/shapes.
BTW, I'm having a great time pretending to understand! laugh.gif

Would be great to have more extended in future lessons (maybe in your modal riffing series?)

Thank you, this is great fun!
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 11 2008, 08:58 PM

Glad you like it Eddie,
I'll surely try to provide more lessons of that kind. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 16 2008, 05:48 PM

Hy Muris! Eddie here.
Can I ask you if there's a reason why you chose
not to play the 5th of the Bmin7th chord in your Swing Lesson?

Thank you, Eddie

Posted by: Danilo Capezzuto Mar 16 2008, 06:19 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Feb 24 2008, 02:15 PM) *
I would prefer to say in C Ionian over Fmaj7,that Bb adds some de-stability to whole sound imho.
But I can not say that it's wrong or correct,
music theory is there just to explain what we are playing,that's all. smile.gif
If you like it,you keep it,that's your music Eddie. wink.gif

+10 Muris

Posted by: Muris Mar 16 2008, 07:16 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 16 2008, 05:48 PM) *
Hy Muris! Eddie here.
Can I ask you if there's a reason why you chose
not to play the 5th of the Bmin7th chord in your Swing Lesson?

Thank you, Eddie


Not sure where Eddie,think I played 5th unsure.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 17 2008, 07:35 AM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 16 2008, 07:16 PM) *
Not sure where Eddie,think I played 5th unsure.gif


The 5th on the A string before switching to B7/+5/-9.

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 17 2008, 03:55 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 17 2008, 07:35 AM) *
The 5th on the A string before switching to B7/+5/-9.

Eddie


Ahh,but I'm playing 5th on B string 7th fret,index finger is doing a bare.
Right? huh.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 17 2008, 08:31 PM

This is so hard!

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 18 2008, 02:58 AM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 17 2008, 08:31 PM) *
This is so hard!

Eddie


What Eddie,you mean that grip with thumb and small bare with index?

Just needs bit of practicing,take your time. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 18 2008, 06:58 AM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 18 2008, 02:58 AM) *
What Eddie,you mean that grip with thumb and small bare with index?

Just needs bit of practicing,take your time. smile.gif



The whole thing is hard, Muris.
The grips are so different from what I was practicing (basic shapes, all strings),
and the sound is hard. When I listen to some of these chords one by one
they sound strange to my ear, but together they are lovely!
Another hard thing is to imagine how you figured out the whole progression... blink.gif
But it's a great lesson, and I can't wait to start the solo part!

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 18 2008, 12:48 PM

I see what you mean Eddie and I agree with you.
Those aren't simplest chord and progression is bit complex as well.
But it comes with time,trust me.
When I was at your stage of playing I was playing
only majors,minors,power chords and few 7th chords. smile.gif
Good thing is that you're interested!

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 22 2008, 11:02 AM

Hello Muris! How are you doing?
I had a great week of practicing: I printed the whole chromatic scale in intervals
and after learning your swing rhythm lesson I've tried to come up
with my own chord fingerings starting from their formula.
For ex: Maj7 is Root, 3rd, 5th and 7th, so I choose a root note (1)
and from there I try to build the chord looking for the other notes (3, 5, 7). It works!
More extended chords are more difficult because very often, depending on where the root note is,
I have to decide what notes to leave out and I'm still confused, but I'm working on it!
I'm also working on the 7 major modes (in one position) and now I know
the formulae by heart, but playing them fluently is another thing!
But it's been very useful to learn the 7 boxes of the major scale.
This long post just to ask you one thing:
if you plan on doing a mode series (maybe in different boxes),
could you do the BT with a little more complex chords so I can study both modes and chord construction?
I hope this is a good suggestion for some nice theory exercises...
If not, no problem, I've already got enough headaches to cure... tongue.gif
Cheers, Eddie




Posted by: Muris Mar 22 2008, 02:11 PM

Al fine Eddie,thanks for asking,hope you're doing great as well!! smile.gif

I see you're having some awesome progress on 7th chords!
As for extended chords,just be sure to have root,3rd and note that clarifies the chord(11th,13th or 9th).
5th is most common to miss out.same with 7th.

I'll do my best to make more mode lessons as well,
with some nice chords and chops,no worries. wink.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 23 2008, 10:47 AM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 22 2008, 02:11 PM) *
Al fine Eddie,thanks for asking,hope you're doing great as well!! smile.gif

I see you're having some awesome progress on 7th chords!
As for extended chords,just be sure to have root,3rd and note that clarifies the chord(11th,13th or 9th).
5th is most common to miss out.same with 7th.

I'll do my best to make more mode lessons as well,
with some nice chords and chops,no worries. wink.gif



Hello Muris!
I understand the 5th, but if I leave out the 7th in a 9th chord isn't it just like playing an add 9 chord?
Same thing with 11th and 13th chords: don't I have to put the notes in between?
I ask you this because you say to put root, 3rd and "note" that clarifies the chord.
Hope you see my point...

P.S. In your pentatonic collab I tried to play with some feeling
without thinking too much, in fact it's my second take. Hope it's ok.
Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 23 2008, 03:27 PM

You're absolutely right Eddie,it's almost like playing add chord,almost.
Deal is,we have only 6 strings and tunning often doesn't allow us to play all notes,
specially in 13th chords(has 7 notes).

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Mar 23 2008, 03:51 PM

I would say that for a 9th, using the 7th is pretty important - less so for 11th, 13th etc, as Muris says smile.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 23 2008, 03:55 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Mar 23 2008, 03:51 PM) *
I would say that for a 9th, using the 7th is pretty important - less so for 11th, 13th etc, as Muris says smile.gif


Spot on Andrew. smile.gif
The idea is actually to keep lower note next to highest one,if possible.
With that technique you'll avoid kind of add chord.

laugh.gif Now I realize the idea of 8 strings huh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 23 2008, 06:19 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 23 2008, 03:55 PM) *
Spot on Andrew. smile.gif
The idea is actually to keep lower note next to highest one,if possible.
With that technique you'll avoid kind of add chord.

laugh.gif Now I realize the idea of 8 strings huh.gif laugh.gif


Could you please explain to me what you mean
by that? I don't think I understand... Sorry sad.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 23 2008, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 23 2008, 06:19 PM) *
Could you please explain to me what you mean
by that? I don't think I understand... Sorry sad.gif


Sorry, but just to be sure:

9th chord: the 7th makes the difference between 9 and add9.
11th: I can leave out the 7th, but I have to put at least the 9th to have a pure 11th chord.
13th: I can leave out the 7th, but I have to put at least the 9th AND/OR the 11th to have a pure 13th chord.
Is it correct?

Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 23 2008, 06:45 PM

Yeah,that'd be the key Eddie. smile.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Mar 23 2008, 06:48 PM

Well there are few hard and fast rules when you move from say a piano to a guitar - on the piano you can include all the notes, on a guitar you have to make a compromise or representation beacuse of 6 strings. So for the extended chords, I'll lay out my thoughts and see if you agree Eddie:

1. Root, 3rd and 5th are always very important, in that order
2. The highest note is also important e.g. 11th or 13th
3. In order to avoid a plus chord, you need to include as many of the upper notes as you conveniently can, 7, 9, 11, 13
4. My rule of thumb would be to always include the highest or it isn;t that chord
5. try hard to include the 7th (essential for a 9th, or it is just an add9, less important for the rest)
6. Then fill in as many of the rest as you can for the voicing you are wokring on.

What do you think?

Posted by: Muris Mar 23 2008, 06:51 PM

Well explained Andrew. smile.gif

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Mar 23 2008, 09:31 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Mar 23 2008, 06:48 PM) *
Well there are few hard and fast rules when you move from say a piano to a guitar - on the piano you can include all the notes, on a guitar you have to make a compromise or representation beacuse of 6 strings. So for the extended chords, I'll lay out my thoughts and see if you agree Eddie:

1. Root, 3rd and 5th are always very important, in that order
2. The highest note is also important e.g. 11th or 13th
3. In order to avoid a plus chord, you need to include as many of the upper notes as you conveniently can, 7, 9, 11, 13
4. My rule of thumb would be to always include the highest or it isn;t that chord
5. try hard to include the 7th (essential for a 9th, or it is just an add9, less important for the rest)
6. Then fill in as many of the rest as you can for the voicing you are wokring on.

What do you think?


Very nicely put Andrew. You even made a few block in my head to get together biggrin.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 24 2008, 11:38 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Mar 23 2008, 06:48 PM) *
Well there are few hard and fast rules when you move from say a piano to a guitar - on the piano you can include all the notes, on a guitar you have to make a compromise or representation beacuse of 6 strings. So for the extended chords, I'll lay out my thoughts and see if you agree Eddie:

1. Root, 3rd and 5th are always very important, in that order
2. The highest note is also important e.g. 11th or 13th
3. In order to avoid a plus chord, you need to include as many of the upper notes as you conveniently can, 7, 9, 11, 13
4. My rule of thumb would be to always include the highest or it isn;t that chord
5. try hard to include the 7th (essential for a 9th, or it is just an add9, less important for the rest)
6. Then fill in as many of the rest as you can for the voicing you are wokring on.

What do you think?


Thank you Andrew and Muris, this makes things much clearer and it's exactly what I thought,
but there's one thing I'm still confused about: the order of notes.
I've come across chords in which the order is different than explained in theory:
I've seen an F#9- in which the highest note is not the 9- but the root note F#.
Can we actually order the notes that make the chord as we like?
I know you can do it for simple chords (inversions),
but can we do the same thing with extended chords?
I tought extensions had to be an octave higher than the root note also when played...
I hope my question is clear and not too dumb...
Tank you, Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 24 2008, 03:18 PM

That's another great question Eddie.
Order of note is another thing mostly caused by guitar tuning system.
Most of the time root is lowest one except when it's marked,inversion.
As for other notes,order could be in many ways.
You mentioned F#-9.
Point is to have G note at least in distance of 9 degrees from root note,that'd be -9.
If you put G right next to root that'd be 2nd and you wouldn't have 9th.
As for other notes,you can have 5th in octave higher,higher then 9th to be precise.
Same with 3rd and 7th.
It's matter of choice,sound,fingering etc. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 24 2008, 03:53 PM

Perfect!
So on the guitar the extended notes (9, 11, 13) can also be played
the octave lower in regards to the root note!
Just like the -9 in the F#-9 chord with the root F# on the 7th fret of the B string!
Right?


Posted by: Muris Mar 24 2008, 04:15 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 24 2008, 03:53 PM) *
Perfect!
So on the guitar the extended notes (9, 11, 13) can also be played
the octave lower in regards to the root note!
Just like the -9 in the F#-9 chord with the root F# on the 7th fret of the B string!
Right?


Kind of,depends of notes order.
The best way is to have root at bottom and rest of the notes above.
In inversions another thing happens.
But be careful with inversions,if you play alone you might not get wanted result.
When you have bass guitar bellow,you're free to do whatever you want with inversions,
bass note will still be the lowest one.

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 24 2008, 06:04 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 24 2008, 04:15 PM) *
Kind of,depends of notes order.
The best way is to have root at bottom and rest of the notes above.
In inversions another thing happens.
But be careful with inversions,if you play alone you might not get wanted result.
When you have bass guitar bellow,you're free to do whatever you want with inversions,
bass note will still be the lowest one.


It's true, I compared some same chords with different fingerings
and I must say that the ones with the root note at the bottom sound
much nicer and particular, especially extended ones
where the added notes give them a special flavour.
(Ex: the F#-9 in your swing lesson and the F#-9 with the root on B string).
Now I'm doing the solo lesson.
Question: over the D#min7-5 you are actually playing an arpeggio root, 3b, 5b
and then you close it on the 7thbb of the dim chord?
Great lesson, but too many out notes! laugh.gif
Thank you... Eddie

Posted by: Muris Mar 24 2008, 06:06 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 24 2008, 06:04 PM) *
Question: over the D#min7-5 you are actually playing an arpeggio (root, 3rd b, 5th cool.gif


That's right,except that 5th is flatted ,so it's -5. smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 24 2008, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 24 2008, 06:06 PM) *
That's right,except that 5th is flatted ,so it's -5. smile.gif


Oh, yes!
Forgot the b... dry.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 24 2008, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Mar 24 2008, 06:11 PM) *
Oh, yes!
Forgot the b... dry.gif


wink.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Apr 24 2008, 12:18 PM

Hi Muris!!! I know you're really busy lately (me too, practicing) so I hope that all you're doing is going great!
And I hope you are doing fine and that your life is giving you great satisfactions...
This is my update: I'm going crazy!
There is one thing I DON'T understand:
Simple triads sound great when I strum all the 6 strings, specially 1st position chords.
But the more complex the chords get, the more I find that they sound cool strumming less strings
even if in theory they have more notes!
I just don't get it, when I try an 11th chord (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th=6 notes) on all the 6 strings
I find it confusing.... In other words I can't HEAR the real flavour of the chord.
But if I play it on, let's say, 4 strings, it sounds much better!
Final question: could you give me a cool "extended" progression that I can record and upload
so you can tell me if my fingering choice is ok?
I hope you see my point and don't find it too dumb.

All the best, Eddie

Posted by: eddiecat Apr 27 2008, 03:14 PM

I know you are very busy,
but when you can check my previous post out! tongue.gif
All the best... Eddie

Posted by: Muris Varajic Apr 27 2008, 11:34 PM

Sorry for delay Eddie,busy as you said sad.gif

I understand you problem but that's sweet problem I would say. biggrin.gif
And it's mostly related to inversion/note orders of particular chord,extended one.
You can also notice that many guitar players do not play every note in chord,
only most important ones.
This is also related to tuning system as you already know.

So,my suggestion is next.
Try to learn some tunes with extended chords,from tabs or by ear,doesn't matter.
Them slowly exam those chords/shapes to realize why do they sound like that.
And then you simply apply some of those rules into your own playing/composing.

I'm encouraging you to record some examples of your thoughts tho
and then we can discuss and analyze it . smile.gif

Posted by: eddiecat Apr 28 2008, 12:43 PM

Thanx a lot!
I will do as you said.
As you might have noticed I post much less now,
but that's only because now I know what to practice,
and believe me... it's a lot!!! laugh.gif
All the questions I had and need to work on
have been answered.
No space for further questions, at least for now!
However, good luck for all your stuff
and thank you always.
Eddie

Posted by: tonymiro Apr 28 2008, 01:05 PM

As Muris says it's very common to see players drop some of the notes in an extended chord. Part of the thing with extended chords is to use those notes that emphasise the chord and its extension rather then play all the possible theoretical notes of the chord Eddie. This becomes an even bigger deal as most of us are limited to six strings AND have to come up with a comfortable fingering of an extended chord. If you play with other musicians just playing some of the notes becomes important, for instance if a bass player is covering the root note you can drop the root from the chord and play the 3rd, 5th and extension, or change the inversion. Sometimes both of you playing he root just ends up over emphasising it and it starts to sound too busy/congested - sometimes less is more as it sonically makes the listener fill in the gaps.



Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: eddiecat Jun 6 2008, 02:04 PM

Hi Muris, me again...
I was studying some chord shapes and I bumped on a Cdim on the 4 top strings.
Now, Cdim is built with the following notes: C, Eb, Gb, A. The distance between all of these notes is 3 semitones.
But this means that C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim and A dim share the same notes!
Hence when I play one of these chords I'm also playing an inversion of the other three!
In theory the same should work for aug chords, but this time only three notes:
(in C) C,E,G#. So Caug, Eaug, G# aug share the same notes! huh.gif
Is it so?

Ciao
Eddie

Posted by: Oxac Jun 6 2008, 02:34 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Jun 6 2008, 03:04 PM) *
Hi Muris, me again...
I was studying some chord shapes and I bumped on a Cdim on the 4 top strings.
Now, Cdim is built with the following notes: C, Eb, Gb, A. The distance between all of these notes is 3 semitones.
But this means that C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim and A dim share the same notes!
Hence when I play one of these chords I'm also playing an inversion of the other three!
In theory the same should work for aug chords, but this time only three notes:
(in C) C,E,G#. So Caug, Eaug, G# aug share the same notes! huh.gif
Is it so?

Ciao
Eddie


Where did you get the A from?

Cdim consists of C Eb and Gb


The chord you talked about was a Cdim add 13

which would work in an A# harmonic minor scale.

Yes I believe that is the case with augmented chords.

-EDIT- sorry for hijacking all your treads Muris... Also I updated the scale, I made a mistake.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 6 2008, 05:04 PM

QUOTE (eddiecat @ Jun 6 2008, 03:04 PM) *
Hi Muris, me again...
I was studying some chord shapes and I bumped on a Cdim on the 4 top strings.
Now, Cdim is built with the following notes: C, Eb, Gb, A. The distance between all of these notes is 3 semitones.
But this means that C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim and A dim share the same notes!
Hence when I play one of these chords I'm also playing an inversion of the other three!
In theory the same should work for aug chords, but this time only three notes:
(in C) C,E,G#. So Caug, Eaug, G# aug share the same notes! huh.gif
Is it so?

Ciao
Eddie


Only one small mistake Eddie,
Cdim7 has Bbb as 7th,not A.
Of course it sounds just the same
but if you write it down in notation
you'll get Bbb cause 7th from C has to start with B,so Bbb is double flat 7th.
And spot on,just like those Diminished 7th chords
we have similar thing with Augmentative chords.
Only difference is that we have 4 dim7 chords with same sounding notes
and 3 aug chords with same sounding notes.
Well done Eddie,good conclusion!! smile.gif

No worries about hijacking tho Oxac,you're doing just fine wink.gif

Posted by: Oxac Jun 6 2008, 06:00 PM

Now I am confused. Because depending if you are in A# harmonic minor. Oh, what would that be called what C as a root... C locrian with a raised 6th? or in C diminshed scale you Dim7 will be different.

In C locrian with a raised 6th Dim7 would be C Eb Gb Bb
In C diminished it would be C Eb Gb Bbb, which contains the same notes as Dim add 13 or Dim add 6 in C locrian with a raised 6th.

EDIT: Spelling.

Posted by: eddiecat Jun 6 2008, 06:21 PM

QUOTE (Oxac @ Jun 6 2008, 07:00 PM) *
Now I am confused. Because depending if you are in A# harmonic minor. Oh, what would that be called what C as a root... C locrian with a raised 6th? or in C diminshed scale you Dim7 will be different.

In C locrian with a raised 6th Dim7 would be C Eb Gb Bb
In C diminished it would be C Eb Gb Bbb, which contains the same notes as Dim add 13 or Dim add 6 in C locrian with a raised 6th.

EDIT: Spelling.


Hi Oxac.
In C locrian the arpeggio it works over is not a dim7, it's a min7 b5.
In other words you flatten the 5th of a min7 chord.
To get the 7th of a dim chord you have to add a minor third to the 5th of the chord:
C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (my A note).
I hope it's correct...

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 6 2008, 06:52 PM

I was not actually talking about scales,
harmonic minor or any locrian,
I was talking ONLY about dim7 chords. smile.gif
In other words,C Eb Gb and Bbb is C dim7,
C Eb Gb and A is A dim7 but in first inversion.
Hope I didn't make huge confusion tho. wink.gif

Posted by: Oxac Jun 6 2008, 07:03 PM

what I ment was: When you build chords, you have a scale. Then you take the root, the third of the root and the third of the third. Then you get the root, third and the fifth, a simple triad.

In dim, you have a minor third and a flattened fifth, compared to a major triad. In the scale, you still have a root, a third and a fifth.

I was talking about my particular scales. In C dimished scale you have the root C, the minor triad, Eb, the fifth (which happens to be flat) Gb and you get the seventh Bbb.

In C locrian with a raised 6th. (I wanted the raised sixth so it would contain C Eb Gb and A)
If you build it up in the same way as in C diminished scale, you will get a C Dim7 with a different 7. This is what confuses me.

Actually, in C locrian you will only get Cdim if you build it up like that. In C locrian you won't even be able to get the Bbb or a "normal" fifth, because they're not within that scale.

So if I get this right. C dim7 consists of C Eb Gb and Bbb, even if Bbb isn't the 7th note from the root? Instead of C Eb Gb and the 7th note away from the root.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 6 2008, 07:27 PM

The point is,Bbb IS 7th from C,
double flatted tho cause that's what 7th looks like in dim7 chord.
note A would be 6th,just take a look at notation. smile.gif

Posted by: Oxac Jun 6 2008, 08:07 PM

So correct me if I'm wrong. The name of the seventh is derived from the original scale. Like maj 7 from MAJOR seven. Which is the seventh note in the ionian scale, B in C ionian. 7 is from the minor scale, Bb. The seventh in C diminished is A or, Bbb. Therefore all dim7 is 9 semitones above the root. Just like all maj 7ths are 11 semitones above the root.

Thank you a lot Muris, I wouldn't have gotten it without your help.

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 7 2008, 01:33 AM

Ok,I'm gonna try to keep it simple.
You are saying that A OR Bbb is 7th in C diminished 7.
Well,it can be just one note I'm afraid and that would be Bbb. smile.gif
Main notes(no sharp or flat) are C D E F G A and B.
It's fine setup cause we were talking about C dim7.
Now,those 7 notes are degrees/intervals as follows:
C-C prime (perfect)
C-D second (major)
C-E third (major)
C-F fourth (perfect)
C-G fifth (perfect)
C-A sixth (major)
C-B seventh (major)

I guess you have read some notation Oxac
cause this approach is mostly related to notation.
Each note,as you go up using C major scale per example,
is another spot higher in notation sheet.
That defines intervals as well.
So if you're counting from C as a root
then you have few options in 7th interval,
major 7th,minor 7th,sharp 7th(rarely used tho cause it's just like octave)
flat 7th etc.
But each of these seventh has to start with letter B,
this is pure theory tho,you can call it whatever you want
but in well educated circle of musicians it goes like this. smile.gif

Posted by: Oxac Jun 7 2008, 10:27 AM

Thanks for your patience Muris, I feel like I was a tad too slow here. I had no Idea about that the notation was applied to the intervals. I just thought of each line, gap as a named note while # and b made it sharp or flat. This will help my sight reading as well. I can't thank you enough Muris, especially since buying your CD is more beneficial for me tongue.gif

-edit- spelling

Posted by: Muris Varajic Jun 7 2008, 02:19 PM

You're welcome. smile.gif

Yeah,it's mostly related to notation and it's good to know
these things,specially for sight reading as you said.
Many self-thought musicians play all these chords
without knowing this theory topic including lots of flats or sharp.
But still they are very good and doable players which is most important. wink.gif

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