Hello Muris,
I was studying Andrew's extended chords lesson but the added notes part is still missing.
I know there are 9th, 11th and 13th chords,
but I also bumped into add9, add11 and add13 chords.
Now, the first three are obtained adding thirds to a 7th chord, right?
But what happens with those add chords?
Do you simply "add" a 9th, or 11th or 13th? And if so, to what?
Hope this makes sense...
Thank you
Good question Eddie.
9th chord contains 7th inside,it's called 9th chord cause 9th is the higher note.
Same with 11th,it has 7th,9th and 11th.
Same thing with 13th as well,we simply build it using thirds and up the scale.
Of course,ALL these chords have root,3rd and 5th.
You're probably asking,how to play all those notes together,I have only 6 strings?
Well,we kick out some notes,usually 5th,sometimes even 3rd.
Add chords,it means that we simply add 9th,11th or 13th,whatever.
We add it on main chord which has root,3rd and 5th.
Per example,G11 chord has notes G,B,D,F,A and C(notice that minor 7th interval is displayed as 7th,
major 7th would be maj7,F#)
And Gadd11 would be, G,B,D and right onto C,no 7th and 9th between.
Hope this clears things a bit.
Yep,same rules,only opposite to 7th,major 3rd is included,minor needs to be written extra
but you know that already I'm sure.
You're welcome Eddie.
Hi Eddie - looks like I will have to write this lesson soon
Well, when you get as old bent and gray as me, sometimes it is hard to remember
Phew, its a relief to hear you say so Muris - I thought I was consigned to the scrap heap for a while
Heh, thanks Eddie, glad you like them I will write that lesson next though, I promise (even though Muris did a great job of explaining!)
Hy Muris, hope all is well.
My question here is very simple:
let's take a 9, 11, 13 chord, they are called like that
because the 9th, 11th, 13th are the highest note.
But are they also ALWAYS the highest note played on the guitar?
I hope you see my point.
Thank you.
Cheers
Eddie
Usually they are highest,per example if you play 9th in octave lower you'd get 2nd,
11th would be 4th,13th'd be 6th etc.
In other words,9th should be 9 degrees from the root while some other notes
might be higher than the 9th,per example 3rd,5th etc,depends of grip.
But if you pull 9th an octave lower it'd be 2nd and you'll be missing the sound of 9th,
that's the deal.
You're welcome Eddie,glad you're interested into theory!
I combine shapes I've learned before and I make them "in a walk" using proper notes.
Depends of chord and sound to determine now many strings I'd use for chord.
Sometimes it's 3,4,5,6 including skipping here and there,
per example I play lower note(usually root) on low E or A
and I do rest of the chord on top 3 strings,sort of things,no strict rule.
Good practice is to play whole progression using one position,3 or 4 frets,
that'll help you understanding chords and their relations.
Good practice is to play whole progression using one position,3 or 4 frets,
that'll help you understanding chords and their relations.
[/quote]
This is a great hint!!!
What a wonderful exercise...
Got it!
Thanx
You're welcome Eddie
Hey Eddie & Muris - you guys inspired me to write my latest chords lesson
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=11531
Hey hey,lesson is great,I'm sure many members will benefit A LOT from it,
thumbs up Andrew,good job!!
Thanks Muris!
Hello Muris,
I hope you're doing fine with your new album,
and I really hope you'll be satisfied with the result.
I'm sure it will come out great!
My question: I was trying to do the exercise you suggested,
creating chords in the same position on the fretboard.
It's not easy, and it takes long to figure out the notes,
but how do I decide what notes to leave out
when it comes to extended chords and chords in general?
I hope you understand my question.
All the best and good luck with your recordings.
Eddie
I was actually thinking of basic chords Eddie,majors and minors.
With extended ones it's another story but main thing is to play
root note and the note that clarifies it,9th,11th etc.
You you can leave out 5th,3rd etc,depends of the grip.
That's great Eddie,I'm sure your take will be quite interesting!!
I know that cause you did some nice improvisations over my lessons so far.
Done.
I see you're lot into theory lately Eddie,I'm damn glad!!
It's always good to play chords alone Eddie,why not.
Remember one thing,whatever you're playing=you're learning something.
Just keep it up.
About that "croped" Em7.
It's Em7 tho,not just Em,right?
So,it's classic "rocking" grip for min7 chord,
root-(5th out)-min7th and min 3rd(in octave).
It's classic grip when you have some distortion ON,
adding 5th would make some mess,try it and you'll see.
With 5th inside you have one 3rd interval(from 5th to 7th)
and usually it doesn't come out nicely with on distorted sounds.
But if you're using clean sound,well,that's another story,
feel free to play as many 3rds as you like.
[quote name='Muris' date='Feb 20 2008, 01:26 AM' post='141333']
It's always good to play chords alone Eddie,why not.
Remember one thing,whatever you're playing=you're learning something.
Just keep it up.
About that "croped" Em7.
It's Em7 tho,not just Em,right?
Oh, yes! Emin7 because of the note D!
And you are right (of course), I tried playing the 5th too
with distortion and it was really messy!
But clean it's beautiful!
Thank you
I'll be back soon with more chords questions!
Hy Muris, here's my second post this morning!
As you know I'm doing your Mixo riff lesson
and I came up with this:
minor_3rd.mp3 ( 159.59K )
: 250
Now, trying to see what note it is (it's the last in the riff)
I saw that it is a minor 3rd, and not a major 3rd like in the Mixo mode.
Now, with a power chord no problems, since it doesn't have a 3rd,
but if I was to strum along would I have to shift briefly from A7 to A min?
Or are there other chords to highlight that minor 3rd?
And on the G part, could I also play a Gmaj7 because of the F# in the riff?
And a bit off topic, why does that note sound good to me even if the minor 3rd is out of scale?
Hope you see my point.
Cheers
This is sort of mix of A Mixolydian and A Dorian.
You play C# on A string 4th fret and then C on G string 5th fret.
Nothing wrong here,it's sounds damn rockin'.
And the only difference between Mixolyidian and Dorian is the 3rd btw.
So you can shift between major and minor 3rd without making lot of mess,
if you do it wisely of course.
Sometimes you can use C as a passing note to C#,try that one as well.
Gmaj7 chord is included in both A Mixo and A Dorian,nothing wrong in there too.
Hy Muris, hope all is well...
I was practicing 7th chords,
and I came up with a simple progression that I like very much:
it's Amaj7, Amaj7, Fmaj7, Cmaj7...
I did a little BT and played A ionian over Amaj7
and then C ionian over Fmaj7 and Cmaj7. Anything wrong?
Could you please tell me what scales and why
you would use over such a progression?
Thank you.
Eddie
Hello Eddie.
I see you're on some theory boost,you've started to combine keys,modulations,well done!!
So with Amaj7 you're in key of A( A Ionian works perfect),
and with Fmaj7 and Cmaj7 you're in key of C,4th and first degrees (C Ionian is perfect here).
Your progression is Amaj7-Amaj7-Fmaj7-Cmaj7.
Now try with using Fmaj7 instead of Cmaj7 but still use C Ionian(A Aeolian) over it.
See/hear the result and share your thoughts with me.
That's another cool progression and scale choice there Eddie,
as long as it sounds ok,you're on good track.
You said it well,staying on F doesn't resolve the piece,
gives it more tension.
Ok Muris, this is just an idea of what we talked about.
I played A Ionian over the Amaj7 chord
and then C Ionian over the Fmaj chord but modulating at the end in F Ionian.
Is it correct?
Thank you. Eddie
I would prefer to say in C Ionian over Fmaj7,that Bb adds some de-stability to whole sound imho.
But I can not say that it's wrong or correct,
music theory is there just to explain what we are playing,that's all.
If you like it,you keep it,that's your music Eddie.
Just like that,you fit it to your taste,that's all about music.
I think I answered to that Cmaj7 question above somewhere.
Cmaj7 kind a resolves it while with Fmaj7 is sounds more smooth,kind of.
Actually it sounds more Lydian,to be precise.
Yep,that's F Lydian,masked as C Ionian.
Those are NOT dumb questions at all Eddie,keep asking,
I'm glad to help,keep diving into sea of theory!
Hey Muris!
Thanks so much for that Jazz Swing Rhythm lesson!
I can't play it, but I love the fact that you always put the root note of the chords
as the lowest note, it makes it a lot easier to study how they are constructed (intervals etc.)
and it's great to start getting into different tricky extended chords/shapes.
BTW, I'm having a great time pretending to understand!
Would be great to have more extended in future lessons (maybe in your modal riffing series?)
Thank you, this is great fun!
Eddie
Glad you like it Eddie,
I'll surely try to provide more lessons of that kind.
Hy Muris! Eddie here.
Can I ask you if there's a reason why you chose
not to play the 5th of the Bmin7th chord in your Swing Lesson?
Thank you, Eddie
This is so hard!
Eddie
I see what you mean Eddie and I agree with you.
Those aren't simplest chord and progression is bit complex as well.
But it comes with time,trust me.
When I was at your stage of playing I was playing
only majors,minors,power chords and few 7th chords.
Good thing is that you're interested!
Hello Muris! How are you doing?
I had a great week of practicing: I printed the whole chromatic scale in intervals
and after learning your swing rhythm lesson I've tried to come up
with my own chord fingerings starting from their formula.
For ex: Maj7 is Root, 3rd, 5th and 7th, so I choose a root note (1)
and from there I try to build the chord looking for the other notes (3, 5, 7). It works!
More extended chords are more difficult because very often, depending on where the root note is,
I have to decide what notes to leave out and I'm still confused, but I'm working on it!
I'm also working on the 7 major modes (in one position) and now I know
the formulae by heart, but playing them fluently is another thing!
But it's been very useful to learn the 7 boxes of the major scale.
This long post just to ask you one thing:
if you plan on doing a mode series (maybe in different boxes),
could you do the BT with a little more complex chords so I can study both modes and chord construction?
I hope this is a good suggestion for some nice theory exercises...
If not, no problem, I've already got enough headaches to cure...
Cheers, Eddie
Al fine Eddie,thanks for asking,hope you're doing great as well!!
I see you're having some awesome progress on 7th chords!
As for extended chords,just be sure to have root,3rd and note that clarifies the chord(11th,13th or 9th).
5th is most common to miss out.same with 7th.
I'll do my best to make more mode lessons as well,
with some nice chords and chops,no worries.
You're absolutely right Eddie,it's almost like playing add chord,almost.
Deal is,we have only 6 strings and tunning often doesn't allow us to play all notes,
specially in 13th chords(has 7 notes).
I would say that for a 9th, using the 7th is pretty important - less so for 11th, 13th etc, as Muris says
Yeah,that'd be the key Eddie.
Well there are few hard and fast rules when you move from say a piano to a guitar - on the piano you can include all the notes, on a guitar you have to make a compromise or representation beacuse of 6 strings. So for the extended chords, I'll lay out my thoughts and see if you agree Eddie:
1. Root, 3rd and 5th are always very important, in that order
2. The highest note is also important e.g. 11th or 13th
3. In order to avoid a plus chord, you need to include as many of the upper notes as you conveniently can, 7, 9, 11, 13
4. My rule of thumb would be to always include the highest or it isn;t that chord
5. try hard to include the 7th (essential for a 9th, or it is just an add9, less important for the rest)
6. Then fill in as many of the rest as you can for the voicing you are wokring on.
What do you think?
Well explained Andrew.
That's another great question Eddie.
Order of note is another thing mostly caused by guitar tuning system.
Most of the time root is lowest one except when it's marked,inversion.
As for other notes,order could be in many ways.
You mentioned F#-9.
Point is to have G note at least in distance of 9 degrees from root note,that'd be -9.
If you put G right next to root that'd be 2nd and you wouldn't have 9th.
As for other notes,you can have 5th in octave higher,higher then 9th to be precise.
Same with 3rd and 7th.
It's matter of choice,sound,fingering etc.
Perfect!
So on the guitar the extended notes (9, 11, 13) can also be played
the octave lower in regards to the root note!
Just like the -9 in the F#-9 chord with the root F# on the 7th fret of the B string!
Right?
Hi Muris!!! I know you're really busy lately (me too, practicing) so I hope that all you're doing is going great!
And I hope you are doing fine and that your life is giving you great satisfactions...
This is my update: I'm going crazy!
There is one thing I DON'T understand:
Simple triads sound great when I strum all the 6 strings, specially 1st position chords.
But the more complex the chords get, the more I find that they sound cool strumming less strings
even if in theory they have more notes!
I just don't get it, when I try an 11th chord (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th=6 notes) on all the 6 strings
I find it confusing.... In other words I can't HEAR the real flavour of the chord.
But if I play it on, let's say, 4 strings, it sounds much better!
Final question: could you give me a cool "extended" progression that I can record and upload
so you can tell me if my fingering choice is ok?
I hope you see my point and don't find it too dumb.
All the best, Eddie
I know you are very busy,
but when you can check my previous post out!
All the best... Eddie
Sorry for delay Eddie,busy as you said
I understand you problem but that's sweet problem I would say.
And it's mostly related to inversion/note orders of particular chord,extended one.
You can also notice that many guitar players do not play every note in chord,
only most important ones.
This is also related to tuning system as you already know.
So,my suggestion is next.
Try to learn some tunes with extended chords,from tabs or by ear,doesn't matter.
Them slowly exam those chords/shapes to realize why do they sound like that.
And then you simply apply some of those rules into your own playing/composing.
I'm encouraging you to record some examples of your thoughts tho
and then we can discuss and analyze it .
Thanx a lot!
I will do as you said.
As you might have noticed I post much less now,
but that's only because now I know what to practice,
and believe me... it's a lot!!!
All the questions I had and need to work on
have been answered.
No space for further questions, at least for now!
However, good luck for all your stuff
and thank you always.
Eddie
As Muris says it's very common to see players drop some of the notes in an extended chord. Part of the thing with extended chords is to use those notes that emphasise the chord and its extension rather then play all the possible theoretical notes of the chord Eddie. This becomes an even bigger deal as most of us are limited to six strings AND have to come up with a comfortable fingering of an extended chord. If you play with other musicians just playing some of the notes becomes important, for instance if a bass player is covering the root note you can drop the root from the chord and play the 3rd, 5th and extension, or change the inversion. Sometimes both of you playing he root just ends up over emphasising it and it starts to sound too busy/congested - sometimes less is more as it sonically makes the listener fill in the gaps.
Cheers,
Tony
Hi Muris, me again...
I was studying some chord shapes and I bumped on a Cdim on the 4 top strings.
Now, Cdim is built with the following notes: C, Eb, Gb, A. The distance between all of these notes is 3 semitones.
But this means that C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim and A dim share the same notes!
Hence when I play one of these chords I'm also playing an inversion of the other three!
In theory the same should work for aug chords, but this time only three notes:
(in C) C,E,G#. So Caug, Eaug, G# aug share the same notes!
Is it so?
Ciao
Eddie
Now I am confused. Because depending if you are in A# harmonic minor. Oh, what would that be called what C as a root... C locrian with a raised 6th? or in C diminshed scale you Dim7 will be different.
In C locrian with a raised 6th Dim7 would be C Eb Gb Bb
In C diminished it would be C Eb Gb Bbb, which contains the same notes as Dim add 13 or Dim add 6 in C locrian with a raised 6th.
EDIT: Spelling.
I was not actually talking about scales,
harmonic minor or any locrian,
I was talking ONLY about dim7 chords.
In other words,C Eb Gb and Bbb is C dim7,
C Eb Gb and A is A dim7 but in first inversion.
Hope I didn't make huge confusion tho.
what I ment was: When you build chords, you have a scale. Then you take the root, the third of the root and the third of the third. Then you get the root, third and the fifth, a simple triad.
In dim, you have a minor third and a flattened fifth, compared to a major triad. In the scale, you still have a root, a third and a fifth.
I was talking about my particular scales. In C dimished scale you have the root C, the minor triad, Eb, the fifth (which happens to be flat) Gb and you get the seventh Bbb.
In C locrian with a raised 6th. (I wanted the raised sixth so it would contain C Eb Gb and A)
If you build it up in the same way as in C diminished scale, you will get a C Dim7 with a different 7. This is what confuses me.
Actually, in C locrian you will only get Cdim if you build it up like that. In C locrian you won't even be able to get the Bbb or a "normal" fifth, because they're not within that scale.
So if I get this right. C dim7 consists of C Eb Gb and Bbb, even if Bbb isn't the 7th note from the root? Instead of C Eb Gb and the 7th note away from the root.
The point is,Bbb IS 7th from C,
double flatted tho cause that's what 7th looks like in dim7 chord.
note A would be 6th,just take a look at notation.
So correct me if I'm wrong. The name of the seventh is derived from the original scale. Like maj 7 from MAJOR seven. Which is the seventh note in the ionian scale, B in C ionian. 7 is from the minor scale, Bb. The seventh in C diminished is A or, Bbb. Therefore all dim7 is 9 semitones above the root. Just like all maj 7ths are 11 semitones above the root.
Thank you a lot Muris, I wouldn't have gotten it without your help.
Ok,I'm gonna try to keep it simple.
You are saying that A OR Bbb is 7th in C diminished 7.
Well,it can be just one note I'm afraid and that would be Bbb.
Main notes(no sharp or flat) are C D E F G A and B.
It's fine setup cause we were talking about C dim7.
Now,those 7 notes are degrees/intervals as follows:
C-C prime (perfect)
C-D second (major)
C-E third (major)
C-F fourth (perfect)
C-G fifth (perfect)
C-A sixth (major)
C-B seventh (major)
I guess you have read some notation Oxac
cause this approach is mostly related to notation.
Each note,as you go up using C major scale per example,
is another spot higher in notation sheet.
That defines intervals as well.
So if you're counting from C as a root
then you have few options in 7th interval,
major 7th,minor 7th,sharp 7th(rarely used tho cause it's just like octave)
flat 7th etc.
But each of these seventh has to start with letter B,
this is pure theory tho,you can call it whatever you want
but in well educated circle of musicians it goes like this.
Thanks for your patience Muris, I feel like I was a tad too slow here. I had no Idea about that the notation was applied to the intervals. I just thought of each line, gap as a named note while # and b made it sharp or flat. This will help my sight reading as well. I can't thank you enough Muris, especially since buying your CD is more beneficial for me
-edit- spelling
You're welcome.
Yeah,it's mostly related to notation and it's good to know
these things,specially for sight reading as you said.
Many self-thought musicians play all these chords
without knowing this theory topic including lots of flats or sharp.
But still they are very good and doable players which is most important.
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