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Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 11:16 AM

ok. This may sound obvious to most but after 6 years I have only just realised this.

G major = G A B C D E F# => Gmaj - Amin - Bmin - Cmaj - Dmaj - Emin - F#dim

That I knew but I didn't realise how you could remember it easily. But I've realised how you get the chords I think

You do kind of 1 3 5 for everyone starting with the letter you want.

So G skip one B skip one D is G Major

Then A skip one C skip one E is Amin

Keep doing this and you get

GBD - G Major
ACE - A Minor
BDF# - B Minor
CEG - C Major
DF#A - D Major
EGB - E Minor
F#AC - F# Diminished

Am I correct with this? I'm a bit of an idiot but I'm happy if this is correct and I've just realised it.

Posted by: DeepRoots Oct 30 2008, 11:18 AM

Bingo

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 11:21 AM

Tonight I'm going to draw all the Major Scale stuff out and understand the chords and notes. It's all coming together slowly

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Oct 30 2008, 11:28 AM

That's right...When you are building chords out of one scale you are taking its notes and stacking thirds one on top of the other on each scale degree..There is a third between 1 and 3 and third between 3 and 5...If you are making triads you are going to do 1 3 5 (3 note chord) , if your making seventh chord you just stack another third on top and get 1 3 5 7.Depending what intervals you get in the end will determine if its major , minor , diminished , dominant chord...

But we remember it by the simple formula :

I-------II----III-----IV------ V------VI-------VII - scale degrees
major minor minor major major minor diminished - quality of chords

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 11:38 AM

Let me try and get this for C Major

CDEFGAB

CEG - C Major
DFA - D Minor
EGB - E Minor
FAC - F Major
GBD - G Major
ACE - A Minor
BDF - B Diminished



And you can use this for any major scale just add the same Major, Minor, Diminished.

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Oct 30 2008, 11:45 AM

That is correct! You can use the formula on ANY major scale since they are all constructed in the same way.Chord type order in relation to scales degree will always stay the same!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 11:47 AM

If you want to use 7th chords in places does that possibly change the chord type?

Posted by: Oxac Oct 30 2008, 11:50 AM

Jackpot now add one third more.

CEGB = Cmaj7
DFAC = Dmin7
EGBD = Emin7
FACE = Fmaj7
GBDF = G dominant 7
ACEG = Amin7
BDFA = Bmin7 -5

Now, another interesting thing to note is that Cmaj7 = C major + E minor triads
Dmin7 = Dminor + F major triads
Emin7 = E minor + G major triads
etc. This goes up to 13th chords. Often you'll skip the 11th (4th) because it's the Sus4 tone and combined with a third it sounds awful, like a twig in the bicycle wheel...

My advice is to practise the triads (like CEG) throughout all of the modes, all keys, Caged, 3nps patterns. This because when you know them, you can stack them up to create different arpeggios.

Like Amin triad + a min an octave up = 5 string sweep hehe. Amin + Amin an octave up, slide to next octave and do A min again and you have a massive sweep hehe... hehe.. heh.. he.. hrm..

Great thing to practise, I do it a lot but I'm a slow learner... so it takes a lot of time.

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Oct 30 2008, 11:51 AM

For seventh chords its this general formula :

I - maj7

II - min7

III - min7

IV - maj7

V - 7

VI - min7

VII - min7b5

Of course you can combine "normal" and seventh chords but make sure you play the right chord type in the right place..Seventh chord is same , just has added note (7th)

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 11:54 AM

What is the interval make up of a dominant chord?

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Oct 30 2008, 11:58 AM

1 3 5 b7

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 12:01 PM

Cheers. I think now I just need to work on a bit of this and maybe record some progressions and jam with them. I just want to know a bit more of what I'm doing as for these collabs that I do I go all for melody. I hear it in my head and I tab it out. I don't know the notes I can play so maybe in places I could pick a slightly better note

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 30 2008, 12:33 PM

COngratulations OC, this is really a major breakthrough, because most of the time people have problem of being aware this simple rule, and it is basically one of the most important things in theory!

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 12:57 PM

Great formula guys. Try now to harmonize "Ab major scale" into 4 note chords for the challenge. I would like to see how many will give the correct answer. Teachers don't help please, I would like to see some answers from guys that are learning about modes.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 01:06 PM

Ab Major 7
Bb Minor 7
C Minor 7
Db Major 7
Eb Dominant 7
F Minor 7
G Minor 7 flattened 3rd

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 01:09 PM

G Minor 7 flattened 3rd ???

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 01:10 PM

G Min7b5 sorry

Minor already has flattened 3rd in it

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 01:10 PM

Here's where I get stuck.

I know the harmonizing the scale concept. And it makes perfect sense.

But how does one use it efficiently?

Meaning this. Say I'm a guitar player and someone says play a I-III-VI in Gb.

I know what the answer is. But it'll take me about 10 minutes to come up with it. First I gotta find paper, then a pencil, then sit down.... ok, carry the one....

Do you more experienced players have all of this memorized?

Posted by: Jesse Oct 30 2008, 01:11 PM

dude I had that moment like a week ago !!!!!!!!!!!!! It's great you're like.. HEY! that's how itis!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 01:12 PM

You just need to know the notes of the Major scale and the pattern so with 3 note chords you have I-III-VI which is Major, Minor, Minor.

So C Major has no accidentals therefore you play C Major, E Minor and A Minor. Just remember what accidentals there are in each Major scale and voila.

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 01:16 PM

Right, I know that. And you know that too.

But imagine standing in a room with some musicians and they say. "Alright, this is a I-IV-VII in A."

How long would it take you to do the math and find the right chords? I know you could find them. But how long would it take?

It'd take me a while to work it out on paper. I'd get it. And without help, But not quickly.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 01:18 PM

Zero time. I know what accidentals in my brain from each Major scale and now I know this pattern Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished it is easy I, IV, VII in A would be A Major, D Major, G# Diminished.

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 01:19 PM

Correct.

Many people call Db and Eb (C# and D#) which in the case of Ab major scale is wrong.
Well done.




If you know all the notes on the fretboard instantly on the spot then it shouldn't be that difficult. You can visualise the fretboard instead of memorizing all those letters. That's what helps me most of the time. Many people find it easier to visualise piano keys.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 01:24 PM

I've done classical music theory and sheet music so I know you need a note including A-G in a scale rather than using C and C# in the Ab scale for instance.

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 01:27 PM

Yeah, I'm not one of those people. I have to first remember the steps of the major scale. Then map out what Amaj is.

THEN.

Write down the notes in each chord.

Then I can fall back on these shapes for the major and minor ones.

--------
--------
---x---
-----x-
-----x- Major shape (if rooted on 6th)
-x-----


--------
--------
-x------
-----x-
-----x- Minor shape (if rooted on 6th)
-x-----

But man.... a diminished shape? I have no idea. I'd have to look at the notes and hunt and find them. With the major and minor shapes all I know off the top of my head is where the root, 3rd, and 5th are. For a Amaj chord I only know that A is the first note. And I know the shape. I have to do the math to find the other note names.

What method do you guys recommend for memorizing the note names in all 24 major and minor scales?

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 01:35 PM

The trick is that there are no sharps in Ab major scale.

Cycle of fifths

C major = no accidentals
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps
E major = 4 sharps
B major = 5 sharps
F# major = 6 sharps
C#major = 7 sharps

Cycle of fourths

C major = no accidentals
F major = 1 flat
Bb major = 2 flats
Eb major = 3 flats
Ab major = 4 flats
Db major = 5 flats
Gb major = 6 flats
Cb major = 7 flats

You can see that Cb major, Db major and Gb major are the same as B major, C# major and F# major. People use the one with less accidentals to write music for easier reading.

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 01:38 PM

I thought Cmaj is the one that is all naturals.

Abmaj and Cmaj cannot contain the same notes.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 01:48 PM

He said there isn't any sharps. Doesn't mean there aren't flats. And Ab has already got a flattened note straight off. So it isn';t the same as C Major.

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 01:53 PM

yeah, thats confusing.

I thought Ab and G# were the same note.

Do you guys have the circle of fifths/fourths memorized? It'd be easier if the notes went in order but they dont.

C D G A E B F# C#

And how do you memorize which notes in each scale are sharp/flat?

Or do you just keep a copy of the circle of 5ths in your pocket?

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 01:58 PM

Organised Confusion gave you correct answer. I said that Ab major scale doesn't have sharps but it does have 4 flats.



Just keep it in the pocket It's not that difficult.

Ab and G# sound the same but there is no key of G# major. There is only a key of Ab major

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 02:03 PM

I agree that the concept is not difficult.

But the sharps and flats of 24 different scales seems like a lot to memorize.

I see how the circle of fifths helps you easily find them. But I dont picture guitarists taking their cheat sheets out of their pockets and looking it up while the drummer and bass player wait....

Posted by: Toroso Oct 30 2008, 02:10 PM

Speaking of the circle of fifths. Is there a lesson here that explains this or can someone point me to a source that does?

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 02:21 PM

13 people spectating right now.

It seems that I'm not the only one thats confused.

What I am specifically inquiring about is how to get from "Yeah, I know how to find the answer" to being able to come up with it quickly.

Follow me?

Like playing a scale. We memorize patterns and shapes. We dont pick a root note and then start thinking ok, whole step, then a whole step, then a half...... We recall in our heads the shape and just let her rip! (at least I do anyway, the shape. I cant really rip yet.... )

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 02:43 PM

What exactly would you like to know about the cycles? There is not much to be said. Cycle of fifths gives you major scales with shaprs and cycle of fourths major scales with flaths. Both starting with "C". You can easily get all minor keys from there. Just go down a minor third (or up a sixth) and you'll get the relative minor key or scale with the same numbers of accidentals. For example Bb major has 2 flats and G minor also has 2 flats. It's actually the same scale. You can look at Bb major as Ionian mode while G minor would be Aeolian (realative to the Bb root). That's really all to be said about it.




I do as well. I never think of steps in the scale when playing, maybe sometimes. I know the shape and that's enough. Just learn shapes and of course you always have to know where your root is in any moment. I don't think of too much theory when playing. It just comes with experience that I know my shapes and I am confident that I will not play a wrong note. When it comes to explaination of why you played this and not that, there is where you can use theory for better understanding. But generally just learn scale shapes and you'll be fine.




I have just seen that my new lesson about chords is live. Check it out, there are some crazy chord names and intervals explained.

Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Oct 30 2008, 02:53 PM

You do that by first memorizing the formula of chord types in relation to scale degrees:

I-------II----III-----IV------ V------VI-------VII - scale degrees
major minor minor major major minor diminished - quality of chords

So when somebody tells you play : ii-V-I you pretty instantly know its going to be : minor-major-major

Next step is to visualize the major scale on fretboard to see what notes are going to be the roots of the chords..It shouldn't be quiz questions , you can start playing the first chord and while you are there in relation to the first chord in progression find and play V and I..By identifying what are chord types going to be-you know which shapes to hold over the root.

It will come in time and practice when you'll start recognizing similar/same progressions...And also you will be able to do it vise versa when you see progressions chords (you will be able to spot chord types and than see if its ii-V-I or what every progression it is and in which key is it).

Posted by: blindwillie Oct 30 2008, 02:54 PM

Yes. I was starting to get an aha-feeling in the first posts but I lost it later down the thread. Now I'm confused again

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Oct 30 2008, 02:56 PM

Basically the first posts are the theory and pretty easy to understand then it went into methods for remembering them. Just make sure you understand the theory on page 1 and then find your own way to remember the stuff

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 03:10 PM

Awesome advice.

The theory doesnt change.

But how you remember it may not work for others.

For example:



How I will remember this is that 2-3-6 are minor. 7 is diminished. I'll try and memorize that.

2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor.......

What I cant figure out how to memorize is how many sharps and or flats is in each key. And then which notes are sharped or flatted. Sure I can do it with the circle of fifths. The first half anyway. Even the circle doesnt tell you which notes to sharp or flat. So even that shortcut is only semi helpful to me.....

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 03:43 PM

Circle tells you how many sharps or flats you have but not which ones you have in the scale.

In the case of shaprs the first sharp is F# (key of G major) and you move that up a fifth and that's the right order of shaprs. So 3 shaprs would be F#, C# and G# which is the key of A major.

Flats are the same but you move them up a fourth. The first flat to be written is Bb which is written in the key of F major. 2 flats would be (Bb and Eb) and they show you the key of Bb major. 3 flats would be (Bb, Eb and Ab) = key of Eb major etc...

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 03:54 PM

Ok let me make sure I understand this.

Here is the circle of fifths.

clockwise by 5ths. CDEFG GABCD DEFGA etc....

So in the key of Gmaj the notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#?



So a 5th up from F# is C#? FGABC

So Dmajor has 2 sharps, F# and C#? And its notes are D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#?

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 04:00 PM

Exactly well done

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 04:09 PM

Very cool.

I didnt know that the names of the sharps are sequenced in 5ths too!!!!

Thats my EUREKA MOMENT.

Thanks Emir!!!!!

Now I neednt have the circle of fifths in my pocket. Name a key and I can come up with the notes 2 ways. Go to the root and play the "shape" I know on the neck.

Or use my knowledge of the COF to tell you the note names.

\m/ \m/

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 04:13 PM

Great that you have it clear now. Many people get confused about this but it's actually very simple. Now you can use any method you like but it's good that you know it either way.

Posted by: kjutte Oct 30 2008, 04:33 PM

Correct.
Basically the 7 chords of a diatonic (7note, example major) scale - are just derived from the 1 3 5th note of each scale degree box.



1 3 5 7th note of dominant degree. V of major.

R maj 3 maj 5 min 7.
A dominant7 chord is a majorchord with a minor 7th.

A diminished chord is a triad with a b5, or diminished 5th.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 30 2008, 04:41 PM

Great discussion guys. I'm learning from reading the posts...beautiful.

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 04:49 PM

Rock on Frank

Posted by: skennington Oct 30 2008, 05:09 PM

Good stuff in here guys! Andrew would be proud. Reading theory for me is quite boring but seeing it in the light of discussion is helping me to grasp a bit more of it! Thanks for the topic OC

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Oct 30 2008, 05:24 PM

Sorry for stepping backwards, but I didnt fully get the reason, why is there no G# Major? When Ab is viable and G sharp is the same? It should be equivalent?


Btw. I am now hardly working on the circle of 5ths concept:P

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 05:29 PM

I suspect there to be a lot of this.

You may only have a handful of people asking the questions. But there are always more learning from it.

Dont be afraid to ask. This is a great site. Others are learning silently in the background. You asking will help more than just you!!!

Posted by: skennington Oct 30 2008, 05:37 PM

Never been short on words or questions and so far, things have been explained quite nicely. If a question comes to mind, I'll be sure to ask

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 05:54 PM

I didnt mean you specifically. Anyone really.

Lots of lurkers. That means this is helpful.

Posted by: Oxac Oct 30 2008, 06:46 PM

I'd like to add something to the circle of fifths, just something that might help.

In C Ionian we have G mixolydian. Mixolydian mode is the major mode with a minor 7th. So in order to move from G mixo to G ionian we have to raise that seventh. That's what happens when we move around clockwise

Going backwards on the otherhand, you have G Ionian, but want C ionian, which you can get by transforming G Ionian into G mixolydian, done by lowering the seventh in the G ionian.

I dunno if it helps, but that's how I think.

Posted by: skennington Oct 30 2008, 07:06 PM

I aree here with you man. Maybe we could come up with a time that works good with those that want to join in and have "Theory Chat" once a week..

EDIT: I know I could really use it!

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 07:10 PM

Hi

You can only have maximum of 7 sharps or 7 flats in the key signature (accidentals written at the begining of the notation). That's why G# major as the key itself doesn't exist in theory. We use Ab major instead. How would you possibly write G# major? It would sound something like G#, A#, C, C#, D#, F, G. This is wrong because when writting sharps you have to start with F# first. In this scale there is no F# note so it can't be possible to make the key signature for the G# major. Also it's wrong to write the scale which has two same letters in it - like this wrong example above it has C and C#.

Hope this helps

Posted by: jer Oct 30 2008, 07:38 PM

Awesome idea!!!



Quick, someone fire up photoshop!!!!!

"I'm Andrew the Theory Lady and this is Theory Chat!"

Posted by: skennington Oct 30 2008, 07:46 PM

Bondy, you watching this...

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Oct 30 2008, 08:21 PM

2 Emir: Thanks for enlightening:)

Although I am not used on standart notation (but study of it is on my recent to-do list) I can understand the C/C# part. I will take it as a rule now:)

Only think I'd like to ask You is - what do you mean, by "We always have to start with F#"

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 09:07 PM

When you writting sharps at the begining of notation (the key signature not the sharps in the melody) you always start from F#. Each other key signature is followed by that F#. It has to be the fisrt every time. See the picture below I hope you will understand. This is the only proper order of writting accidentals, reading from left to right.

Posted by: FrankW Oct 30 2008, 10:44 PM

So, the cycle of fifths defines the sharps, and the cycle of fourths defines the flats...is that it?

Posted by: wrk Oct 30 2008, 10:49 PM

As an add-on to Emirs picture above, here is an helpful training tool:

http://musictheory.net/trainers/html/id83_en.html

If you understood the concept it's quite helpful just for memorizing.

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 30 2008, 11:02 PM

correct


great tool wrk

Posted by: FrankW Oct 31 2008, 12:38 AM

I really learned something today. I have really had a Eureka moment thanks to Organized, Emir, Oxac, and the intelligent questions asked by all. I actually started writing this stuff down on my chord charts, Thanks guys.

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 31 2008, 12:45 AM

great Frank. These things are essential. It's really cool that we can all communicate this way and help each other.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 31 2008, 01:40 AM

Wow, this topic has really gone a long way


While I wait for my upload, let me write my 2 cents on the circles:



THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS:


People often ask what is the circle of fifths. Behind that cryptic name there's a very simple concept basically and it all starts with good ol' C major scale:

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C

what we have above is a C major scale. Sign (-) marks the whole step interval, and sign (=) a half step interval. For those of you who don't know what whole step and half step means, when translated to guitar neck a whole step is when the notes are 2 frets apart on one string and half step is when the notes are right next to each other on the string, so 1 step apart.

So:

(-) whole step, notes are 2 frets apart
(=) half step, notes are 1 fret apart (next to each other)


Why is this important well let's look at the C major scale again:

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C

suppose we wanna make another scale out of it, how do we do that?


Easy, we will follow these 3 basic steps bellow, bare with me:

Step number 1

we are gonna split the C major scale in two parts like this:

C - D - E = F
G - A - B = C

Now notice here that both of these parts have the same whole step, half step layout This is one important characteristic of the major scale, and every major scale has this layout.

Step number 2

We are gonna make the second major scale, now starting from the second part the C major scale that we had in step number 1, like this:

G - A - B = C - D - E = F - G

But is there something wrong with this scale? Well yes it does not have the same layout of whole step, half step intervals like C major scale does. In step number one we have a rule that says that every major scale has ( - - = - - - = ) the same layout of steps between the notes.
To transform this scale into G major scale we have to do the step three.

Step number 3

Again we have our scale from above:

G - A - B = C - D - E = F - G

in order to transform it to G major we must raise the VII note by a half step. This will create a ( - - = - - - = ) layout that we need.

If we raise the F note the scale will look like this:

G - A - B = C - D - E - F# = G

So this above my folks is a regular G major scale.


If we wanna create another scale so what now?? Well simply split the G major scale now to two parts and follow the same steps, then split that scale and follow again those steps etc..


How does this relates to the circle of fifths??


Well simple every time we are making a new major scale, we are actually starting to build from the 5th note of a previous major scale.

In C major, 5th note is G, so now we have G major.
In G major 5th note is D, so now we have D major.
In D major 5th note is A, so now we have A major.
In A major 5th note is E, so now we have E major.
In E major 5th note is B, so now we have B major.
In B major 5th note is F#, so now we have F# major.
In F# major 5th note is C#, so now we have C# major.


So this is my friends building following the circle of fifths. Now if you remember the 3rd step, we had to raise the VII note every time. This means that every next major scale in the circle have +1 # sign.


In C major - 0 #
In G major - 1 #
In D major - 2 #
In A major - 3 #
In E major - 4 #
In B major - 5 #
In F# major - 6 #
In C# major - 7#




Doing circle of fourths is very similar only going backwards, and starting from the fourth note of a scale. A more detailed explanation on the circle of fourths tomorrow, or check out Andrew's theory lessons.

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 02:20 AM

So are you saying if we continue...

split it into 2 =

G - A - B = C

D - E - F# = G

then take the back half and continue it....

D - E - F# = G - A - B = C

Then raise the 7th note a 1/2 step we get the next one in the circle of fifths?

D - E - F# = G - A - B - C#

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 31 2008, 02:24 AM

That's exactly it man you got it

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 02:27 AM

Hell yeah!!!!

Who's got the next one?

A Major

Posted by: Muris Varajic Oct 31 2008, 02:39 AM

Great thread guys,keep em coming!

Posted by: FrankW Oct 31 2008, 04:18 AM

Okay, here's A Major:

A-B-C#=D-E-F#-G#=A

So: A-B-C#=D

E-F#-G#=A

E-F#-G#=A-B-C#-D#=E

I think that's right. I want to add that I wasn't up on this stuff until I read this thread. This is really cool.

Posted by: blindwillie Oct 31 2008, 08:28 AM

Hmmm... at least I'm starting to see relationships now.
Thanks all.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 31 2008, 10:36 AM

That is correct FrankW!

Anybody wanna do the next scale?? We must complete the circle of fifths in order to tell you about the circle of fourths

Posted by: Jakub Luptovec Oct 31 2008, 12:39 PM

Well here is E major: E-F#-G#=A-B-C#-D#=E

The next step should be

B major


1st step:

E-F#-G#=A

and

B-C#-D#=E

2nd step - we rotate it

B-C#-D#=E-F#-G#=A

3rd step (is this B mixolydian?) raising 7th degree on A#

B-C#-D#=E-F#-G#-A#


Aight?

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Oct 31 2008, 02:04 PM

Great book for theory is Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book.
Easy read and very useful . First chapter is all about intervals chords structure of scales etc
The book goes for 45$ or 50$
Thats how much I got it at Berklee Bookstore in Boston.
You can find it on amazon probably

Posted by: kaznie_NL Oct 31 2008, 02:57 PM

Hey... that helped me

great OC! I had an Eureka moment as well yesterday, I figured out how to play the verse of Better Be Home Soon!

Posted by: skennington Oct 31 2008, 03:18 PM

Let me give this a shot....

F# Major

F#-G#-A=B-C#-D-E=F#

F#-G#-A=B
C#-D-E=F#

So next scale would be...?

C#-D-E=F#-G#-A-B=C#

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 03:52 PM

you forgot the last step.

The scale you have is the same notes as you started with. Just in a different order.

Posted by: skennington Oct 31 2008, 04:11 PM

So I need to raise "A" by a 1/2 step? This would complete the "Circle" back to C Major, correct?

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 04:39 PM

F# maj is actually:

F# G# A# B C# D# F F# (can you have F and F# in there? Should we being calling F Eb here?)
w w h w w w h

So to split it gives us:

F# G# A# B

and

C# D# F F#

Continuing the 2nd half gets us:

C# D# F F# G# A# B

Then raising the 7th one a half step gets us:

C# D# F F# G# A# C


This doesnt look right..... And looking at the COF there is no C# listed.... Should we be thinking of this as Db?

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 31 2008, 05:06 PM

You got the right notes but you wrote them incorrectly

F should be E# and that way you won't have F written twice. F# major has 6 sharps so:

F# G# A# B C# D# E# (F# - root is not usually written twice, 7 notes are enough)


And also forget about flats when you are working with the cycle of fifths. There are no flats

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 05:18 PM

yeah, E#, thats what I meant.

Then what are all those b's doing over there on the left side?

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 31 2008, 05:22 PM

Those are cycle of fourths

This picture is wrong. There is no key of C# and the key of Cb. Check my previous picture about sharps and flats, that's the correct order

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 05:24 PM

I see.

Cuz C#maj would be: C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

And thats is just plain wacky. Yes?

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 31 2008, 05:26 PM

Yes

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 05:27 PM

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!



Thanks Emir.

I checked out your new album by the way.

Man, you can play the S@*T out of the guitar.

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 31 2008, 05:33 PM

haaaaaa thank you I am writting the new one. Could be out next summer

Posted by: Toroso Oct 31 2008, 07:03 PM

I guess what I'm saying is I don't really know how it works or how to use it. Much theory still to be learned Im afraid .

Posted by: skennington Oct 31 2008, 07:06 PM

Thanks guys, got it I was raising the V instead of the VII, so now makes more sense..

Posted by: Emir Hot Oct 31 2008, 07:49 PM

I think you have it all in this topic. Start from begining and you can get the whole point. About using cycle of fifths or fourths in your music, maybe you don't need to think about it. It is just good to understand the concept and for some other things. For example if you want to understand why there is no a key of G#, this theory can explain you that. Also if you look at some notation and see 3 shaprs at the begining, you can automatically realize that the song is either in the key of A major of F# minor. This is where it comes as a helpful tool.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 31 2008, 09:37 PM

Well guys congratulations, you made it through the circle of fifths, now, as I promised let's form a circle of fourths:

CIRCLE OF FOURTHS:

With the circle of fourths we actually go the other way around. We also have 3 steps that we talked about before, but they are a bit different.

As before, we start from our good friend - C major scale

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C


STEP 1

In this step we do the same as before, we split the C major scale in half and get two equal parts like this:


C - D - E = F
G - A - B = C


STEP 2

In step 2 we will put first part in second place and second part in first place and start couningfrom the end of the first part. This is the fourth note of the C major scale, and we will made F major scale by counting downwards like this:


[F - G - A - B] = [C - D - E = F]

as you can see the first part of the C major scale now became the second part of the F major scale.

STEP 3

So now we have this scale from above:

F - G - A - B = C - D - E = F

and as before, this is not a major scale, because we need our major scale layout of intervals between notes. (- - = - - - =)

What do we do? We will simply flat the fourth note by a half step.

If we flat the fourth note we will get:

F - G - A = Bb - C - D - E = F

and this my friends is the F major scale!


If we now wanna continue the circle, we will follow three basic steps from above:


1. split the scale in two, and put second part as first
2. start counting from the last note of the first part downwards
3. flat the fourth note of the new scale to get a major scale


that's it guys, hope it helped a bit.


As before every scale has one added "b" sign, as a result of flattening the fourth note every time.

And since we start building the scale from the fourth note, this is why it is called the circle of fourths!

Now everybody try to go through circle of fourths:

starting from C major scale

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C

Posted by: jer Oct 31 2008, 09:41 PM

We did Cmaj to Fmaj

F - G - A = Bb - C - D - E = F

Split it...

F - G - A = Bb
C - D - E = F

Start from the 4th note in the 1st half

Bb C D E F G A Bb

Flatten the 4th a half step

Bb C D Eb F G A

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 31 2008, 09:43 PM

Wonderful! you got it mate

Posted by: FrankW Oct 31 2008, 10:02 PM

Okay...my turn!

Bb-C-D=Eb-F-G-A=Bb:

Bb-C-D=Eb
F-G-A=Bb so:

Eb-F-G=Ab-Bb-C-D=Eb

Yes?

Ivan, your method is quick and easy to remember. I'm visualizing the fretboard when I sound out the major scale. Either way works. This is great.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Oct 31 2008, 10:32 PM

Way to go mate! Very good

Posted by: GibsonScott Nov 3 2008, 07:07 PM

This was an excellent read! I've been enjoying reading the theory articles, but it's nice to see and learn from everyone's participation in the thread. I actually feel like I understand the circle of fifths and fourths now!! Thanks guys!!

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 3 2008, 07:31 PM

Well done Gibson. Always nice to hear that someone can learn things like this.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 3 2008, 10:23 PM

Great job mate, I'm glad if I could help in any way. Keep rockin

Posted by: jer Nov 3 2008, 10:29 PM

Now I know 2 ways to find the notes in any major scale 3 different ways.

1 - start with the root and apply the old w-w-h-w-w-w-h step sequence.
2 - find the root on the 6th string and apply the major 3 note per string shape I have memorized.
3 - use the circle of fifths

All we've talked about so far are major scales...

Now how does all this relate minor?

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 3 2008, 10:38 PM

Down a minor 3rd or up a 6th will give you the relative minor key. If you have A major scale (3 sharps) then it's the same scale as F# minor (also with 3 shaprs) just starting from the F# note. You can look at your A major as Ionian mode and F# minor as Aeolian (or natural minor).

Posted by: jer Nov 3 2008, 11:02 PM

so for example if I needed to know what D#min was....

I'd need to find the relative major right?

How do I do that?

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 3 2008, 11:23 PM

There is no D# minor key

There is only Eb (which sounds the same but this the right way of calling that key)

Look at previous posts I uploaded the picture with all key signatures and relative sharps/flats. If you want to get a relative (parallel) major key from a minor key, you go up a minor 3rd. So from Eb up a minor 3rd is F#. Now you check that picture and that will tell you that F# major has 6 sharps so Eb minor also have 6 sharps.

------------------------------------------------------------

unfortunately it was very late when I posted the above comment so what I said above is wrong. I was really tired and thinking about theory Yes there is D# minor. See Pedja's comment on the next page and my appologies

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 05:40 AM

If there is F# major there should be D# minor


F# major

F# G# A# B C# D# E# (F#)

D# minor = F# major starting on 6th scale degree (aeolian mode)

D# E# F# G# A# B C# D#

So the notes are there no doubt.

Now question arises , and a very good one , why do we call this key Eb minor rather than D#minor?

I believe it has to do what a specific sound it carries and emotions it triggers.

People with perfect pitch associate all notes with colors and feelings. Same thing for keys.
This is not far from truth and can be easily applied in this example.

Give it some thinking and let me know

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 4 2008, 06:03 AM

wow man you are right

I just noticed my mistake. These things sometimes really get confusing when you think about them. Yes there is D# minor but there is no D# major (and that's what I actually had in mind). I was thinking of that one, and writting about the other one haaha. Thanks for this very important correction. It was very late when I posted this comment Good that we have it clear now. Thanks.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 06:26 AM

Emir don't worry be happy man

Hehe

Thanks

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 02:54 PM

So there isnt a circle of fifths picture that deals with minor. You have to convert to major first?

And to do that you go up a minor third. Which is 2 frets. Yes?

So if I have B minor (for example). And want to figure out the sharps in B minor I go up to C#maj and do it that way?

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 03:22 PM

There is circle for both sharps and flats for both major and minor. Its pretty easy to deal with.
If you want keys with flats go up a forth from C major or A (natural) minor , if you want sharps go up a fifth.

Ex

C major - A minor ( no accidentals)
F major - D minor (one flat Bb)


C major - A minor ( no accidentals)
G major - E minor (one sharp F#)

Makes sense?

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 03:35 PM

no.

I want to figure out the sharps or flats for B minor.

I have this in my hand:

http://aura.gaia.com/photos/21/202653/large/circle_of_fifths_and_color_wheel.jpg

How do I do it? The word minor isnt any where on it. Do I have to convert Bmin to major first?

So Bmin + minor 3rd = C#maj. Correct?

And looking on the chart (see link) there is no C# maj but there is Db major so I use that?

5 flats?

(I'm giving you the step by step of how I'm thinking it out)

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 03:55 PM

Ok , let me help you out.

First step C major has no sharps nor flats, correct?
Second step, relative minor scale to C major is down a minor 3rd (whole + half step or in guitar language 3 frets).
Ok now third step - if you want MINOR chords that have SHARPS start with A minor and keep going up a FIFTH.
You get this now
A minor - E minor ( 1 sharp) , B minor (2 sharps) , F# minor (3 sharps) etc
Step four, if you want Minor chords that have flats in them start with a minor and keep going UP A FORTH.
So you get this now
A minor, Dminor (1 flat) G minor (2 flats) C minor (3 flats) etc

Makes sense?

If you are still struggling then you need to work on your Interval knowledge.


Unison = same note
Minor 2nd = half step or 1 fret
Major 2nd = whole step or 2 frets
Minor 3rd = w + w step or 3 frets
Perfect 4th = w+ w+ h step or 4 frets
Augmented 4th or Diminished 5th or TRITONE = w + w+ w or 5 frets
Perfect 5th = w + w+ w + h step or 6 frets

This is half of the intervals before the octave.
They will help you create basic chords as well as look for keys with sharps and flats.

Hope this helps now

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 03:58 PM

I understand all that.

But its not helping me find the sharps for B minor.

Goal = find the sharps for ______ minor. (could be anything)

Lets use B minor for this example. How do I find the sharps/flats for Bmin?

Since I am starting with minor, do I go UP a minor 3rd (3 frets) and use the circle of fifths for D major?

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 4 2008, 04:04 PM

I used to have the same problem, and actually didn't use any rules to do that, instead I made a table of all scales, and bit by bit I learned them by hearth.

Here's the table hope it helps, you can print it out:

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 4 2008, 04:22 PM

Yes.

B minor is a parallel scale with D major. Both have 2 sharps. Very simple.

p.s. there are 2 keys missing on your picture, C# major and Cb major. C# has 7 sharps and Cb 7 flats

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 04:37 PM

I agree with Emir on this one

Once you get the intervals its pretty easy

Here is the shortcut for minor scales

If you start at A minor and go to next minor with 1 sharp you get E minor
E minor would then have E F G A B C D E - as we know this is E phrygian not AEOLIAN. So what you do is RAISE THE SECOND NOTE IN THE SCALE BY HALF STEP!!!

Thats it

Thats your rule for minors with sharps

So you would go on like this

A minor
E minor (F #)
B minor (keep F# + 2nd note raised now you get C#!)
etc

For keys with flats this is the deal

Start with A minor
Go up a forth you get D minor
This D minor scale now looks like this D E F G A B C D !
The problem is , this is D dorian , we need it to be Aeolian (natural minor)
So you take 6th scale degree and flatten it !
So now you get D E F G A Bb C D which is D aeolian.

If you would continue you would get this

A min
D min (1 flat, Bb)
G min (2 flats, keep Bb and flaten 6th note E to Eb)
Etc

This might be difficult and confusing to some of you.
However this is very good way to understand modes scales intervals and everything else.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 04:52 PM

Great!

Now I know how to find minor and major scales this way. As well as the sharps and flats in them them.

THANKS!!!!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 04:55 PM

Here is something that you may also find useful

When I was entering music high school in my country I scored with highest grades on Theory and harmony. I basically did the test that was 3 and a half hours in less then an hour.
What did I do ?
I had an awesome teacher - she wrote many harmony and theory books that are used in Serbian music high schools and academies.
I learned so much from here at that time (I was very young

So first thing you need is just learn by MEMORY the order of 7 flats and 7 sharps.

F#, C# , G# , D#, A# , E# , B# !
Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb !

Then all you need is learn to start from C and go up a 4th or fifth depending what type of key you are looking for

Keys with sharps G , D , A , E , B , F#, C #
Keys with flats F , Bb, Eb , Ab, Db, Gb , Cb

Great man !
Thats awesome
Good luck with this information

Its powerful, it can blow somebody's mind away hehe

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 4 2008, 05:03 PM

Great post. I uploaded picture on this thread which explains exactly what you said here. You just need to learn that picture and everything after that is really easy.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 05:28 PM

Check this out.

http://www.guitar-vacation-retreats.com/resources/order_sharps_flats_circle_fifths.html

Neat picture that shows a great trick for remembering the order of sharps and flats using your guitar.

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 4 2008, 05:36 PM

Yes, very cool system but again C# major and Cb major are missing on his picture.

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 05:37 PM

Why do you think the pics keep leaving off C#maj and Cbmaj?

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 4 2008, 05:41 PM

Because C# major has 7 sharps and it's very hard to read notes in that key. They use Db major instead which has 5 flats. They sound the same. The same reason is for Cb major, which has 7 flats but people use B major with 5 sharps for easier reading. However in theory C# major and Cb major do exist.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 05:52 PM

Excellent explanation.

I would add to this one cool thing that a lot of people may not know or be aware of.

It is known fact in musician circles that Guitar players are WOST sight readers. Having said this, guitar players that read the most fluent are Classical and Jazz players. Why ? Classical music is written in notation, Jazz music lead sheets as well as transcriptions are also written in music notation. Rock blues and all the rest of guitar players mostly stick with tabs.

Another little trick

Classical music is mostly written in keys with sharps!

Jazz music is written in keys with flats!


Think about it for a while and let me know

Posted by: jer Nov 4 2008, 05:54 PM

But Rock Guitar players get all the ladies.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 4 2008, 05:56 PM

Haha true but I think Singers get them the most and Drummers
I think bass players definitely get them the least - sorry Bogdan

Posted by: Emir Hot Nov 4 2008, 06:13 PM

Very true No matter in what key signature they are hahahah