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GMC Forum _ GEAR & PRODUCTION _ Presonus Studio One Question

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 24 2018, 09:19 PM

Hello folks,

I've been having a few issues with Reaper so I thought I'd try Studio One. I can't use the forum as I've downloaded the free version and you can only post a thread if you have a registered product. I can't see how to register the free one as it doesn't give you a key.

Anyway, when setting up the I/O I can't select a different input and output device. I record direct from Helix USB and playback through my Scarlett.

Any advice?

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 24 2018, 09:29 PM

I think I found your answer phil! Congrats on trying a new DAW! It's always a good thing to try new software IMHO. There is so much that is worth learning. Sadly, I found this...

Currently, the option to select independent Recording and Playback devices in Studio One 3.5.x is only supported on MAC OS X.

I'm guessing the same snag is what has gotten you? You probably have a newer version of product. From the sound of it, the option of using separate in/out is a mac thing for studio one. It worked Great for me when I tried it when I had a presonus 16 channel mixer as my main audio device. It would let me use the 11 rack for input and the presonus for output. But I'm on a Mac.

What was happening with reaper? Maybe we can help you work it out?
Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 24 2018, 04:19 PM) *
Hello folks,

I've been having a few issues with Reaper so I thought I'd try Studio One. I can't use the forum as I've downloaded the free version and you can only post a thread if you have a registered product. I can't see how to register the free one as it doesn't give you a key.

Anyway, when setting up the I/O I can't select a different input and output device. I record direct from Helix USB and playback through my Scarlett.

Any advice?

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 24 2018, 10:06 PM

Well you heard that warbling effect on a couple of my takes and it is a bit sluggish at time, especially when I render a track, after I render, it is unusable for a few seconds, then it sticks in the render window, then it says "not responding" and then it kicks back in, it's just minor niggles like that that get on my tits.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Mertay Nov 25 2018, 10:45 AM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 24 2018, 09:06 PM) *
Well you heard that warbling effect on a couple of my takes and it is a bit sluggish at time, especially when I render a track, after I render, it is unusable for a few seconds, then it sticks in the render window, then it says "not responding" and then it kicks back in, it's just minor niggles like that that get on my tits.

Cheers

Phil


And no luck on reaper forum as an answer? I'd imagine there would be a few who has a helix.

Would connecting the Helix to soundcard (no usb connection) solve the problem and still cover all your needs? there are many daw's out there some even free but dealing with a new DAW can really take time.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 25 2018, 11:03 AM

The Helix is already connected to my soundcard for when I just want to play and it is how I monitor with zero latency. The thing is, it's so easy to record wet and dry and reamp using the Helix USB.

Posted by: Mertay Nov 25 2018, 11:15 AM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 25 2018, 10:03 AM) *
The Helix is already connected to my soundcard for when I just want to play and it is how I monitor with zero latency. The thing is, it's so easy to record wet and dry and reamp using the Helix USB.


Can't argue with that. Did you try powering the helix off before rendering?

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 25 2018, 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Mertay @ Nov 25 2018, 11:15 AM) *
Can't argue with that. Did you try powering the helix off before rendering?


Thanks Mertay

No I didn't, what is the thinking behind that?

Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Nov 25 2018, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 25 2018, 02:35 PM) *
Thanks Mertay

No I didn't, what is the thinking behind that?

Cheers


Its always seemed like the 2 devices somehow mixed things up for your computer in a way we couldn't figure out yet. I thought maybe after the recording is done and only render left (Helix's job being done), it wouldn't hurt to try disconnecting it from the system to see if it solves the rendering issue.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 25 2018, 06:22 PM

Thanks, by "the rendering issue" do you mean the not responding thing?

Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Nov 25 2018, 06:54 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 25 2018, 05:22 PM) *
Thanks, by "the rendering issue" do you mean the not responding thing?

Cheers


yeah

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 25 2018, 09:26 PM

No buddy, it was exactly the same.

Here is a video, when you hear the clicking it's me with the mouse clicking frustatingly on the cancel button just out of view on the video. It does get going again as soon as that dialogue box disappears.

https://youtu.be/TraDoFk462s

Posted by: Mertay Nov 25 2018, 10:09 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 25 2018, 08:26 PM) *
No buddy, it was exactly the same.

Here is a video, when you hear the clicking it's me with the mouse clicking frustatingly


laugh.gif

I noticed it was rendering to mp3, does it happen when rendering to wav. too?

Edit; I also noticed silently increment filenames to avoid overwriting is checked, try disabling that too.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 25 2018, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (Mertay @ Nov 25 2018, 10:09 PM) *
laugh.gif

I noticed it was rendering to mp3, does it happen when rendering to wav. too?

Edit; I also noticed silently increment filenames to avoid overwriting is checked, try disabling that too.



Will do tomorrow buddy thanks.

By the way, I have some software that records video of the screen but when I played it back the render box didn't show for some reason.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 25 2018, 10:34 PM

Egad!! Are you using the latest version of reaper? They are always updating to fix these kinds of issues.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 24 2018, 05:06 PM) *
Well you heard that warbling effect on a couple of my takes and it is a bit sluggish at time, especially when I render a track, after I render, it is unusable for a few seconds, then it sticks in the render window, then it says "not responding" and then it kicks back in, it's just minor niggles like that that get on my tits.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 25 2018, 11:15 PM

I'm pretty sure I am Todd, unless it's stopped telling you there is an update. I'll check tomorrow.

Cheers buddy

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 26 2018, 01:46 AM

If you update each time you get the pop up, you should be in good shape. However, sometimes it's good to do a full uninstall, reboot, fresh install if an app is acting strange. I don't know how many licensed plugins you are using, as sometimes they need a relicensing.

Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 25 2018, 06:15 PM) *
I'm pretty sure I am Todd, unless it's stopped telling you there is an update. I'll check tomorrow.

Cheers buddy

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 26 2018, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (Mertay @ Nov 25 2018, 10:09 PM) *
laugh.gif

I noticed it was rendering to mp3, does it happen when rendering to wav. too?

Edit; I also noticed silently increment filenames to avoid overwriting is checked, try disabling that too.



Made no difference buddy.


QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 26 2018, 01:46 AM) *
If you update each time you get the pop up, you should be in good shape. However, sometimes it's good to do a full uninstall, reboot, fresh install if an app is acting strange. I don't know how many licensed plugins you are using, as sometimes they need a relicensing.

Todd



Full uninstall and install of latest version ( I didn't have the latest on there), exactly the same. I don't use any plugins.

Posted by: Mertay Nov 26 2018, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 26 2018, 07:57 PM) *
Made no difference buddy.


Bummer, for now I can't think of another reason, aside maybe a background program (could be anything) is causing the render problem and reaper may not be the problem.

Since you already have presonus installed give the rendering test a shot anyway, might gives us a clue.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 26 2018, 10:34 PM

hmm. What happens if you use the SCARLLET for in and out? Just for a test, use a set of headphone and set the scarllet for both. Reaper may be getting twirked by having separate audio ins/outs, even though it's capable of it, if the response of one device is a bit off compared to the other, reaper can get jiggy.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 26 2018, 03:57 PM) *
Made no difference buddy.





Full uninstall and install of latest version ( I didn't have the latest on there), exactly the same. I don't use any plugins.

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 27 2018, 10:08 PM

Still the same mate, in fact, just clicking on "Options" and it goes into "Not responding" mode mad.gif

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 27 2018, 10:56 PM

I'm not trying to sound like a smartass here, but I can't help but think it's something outside of Reaper. Have you tried your projects on a different computer? Different sound/audiocard? Different setup? Starting in safe-mode if you can still run Reaper in that (I honestly don't know)?

Of course if you find another DAW that works for you, then it's wonderful! I have run 50+ tracks (My "Celestial Voyage" song/album, which I was an idiot about and lost the project files for!) on Reaper, doing renders of each stem simultaneously or all to one final track. Never had a moment's trouble. It just makes me think it's either a setting somewhere (to either be turned of or on to match your PC) or another software interfering.

Also, have you tried formatting your computer, installing everything again, of course keeping documents, files and all you need? Big task/ask, but just trying to think of solutions here.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 28 2018, 01:55 AM

Egad. last thing I can think of. Unplug ANY usb related audio devices from your computer. All of them. Reboot. Plugin your head phones in to your computer, ear buds are fine. Launch reaper. Try to just play back, and hit options, etc. and export, and see if it freezes.

If you can do all these bits, with your internal sound card only, then it's not actually reaper as such causing the issue. However, if you have the same problems, using just your internal audio card, something is seriously amiss. I've never heard of reaper behaving this badly til now sad.gif

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 27 2018, 05:08 PM) *
Still the same mate, in fact, just clicking on "Options" and it goes into "Not responding" mode mad.gif

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 28 2018, 08:24 AM

That's my lot mate rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 28 2018, 01:55 AM) *
I've never heard of reaper behaving this badly til now sad.gif


Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 28 2018, 07:43 PM

Did you try unplugging everything and using the internal sound card?


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 28 2018, 03:24 AM) *
That's my lot mate rolleyes.gif


Did you try unplugging everything and using the internal sound card?


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 28 2018, 03:24 AM) *
That's my lot mate rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 28 2018, 11:04 PM

Also, don't know if you missed my post with suggestions smile.gif

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 28 2018, 11:30 PM

QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Nov 28 2018, 11:04 PM) *
Also, don't know if you missed my post with suggestions smile.gif

I did miss that buddy sorry. I'll review tomorrow. Thanks

I'll do that tomorrow buddy

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Nov 28 2018, 07:43 PM) *
Did you try unplugging everything and using the internal sound card?




Did you try unplugging everything and using the internal sound card?


Posted by: Phil66 Nov 29 2018, 09:17 PM

Okay, thanks. Problem is isolated. It's the Scarlett. Luckily I don't record from it now. I do need it to hear computer sound through my monitors though and to use Scarlett Mix Control. It's starting up 10 times quicker too and no hanging after rendering.

I need to get over to the Cockos people though. It does the same on both of my Won10 computers. Hopefully I can get it sorted. It's not a major ball ache pulling the USB out for rendering but I'd like it not to be like it.

Cheers

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 30 2018, 03:25 AM

I figured it was something like that smile.gif Glad to hear the issue is clear now. It could be a driver issue. Uninstall reboot and reinstall the scarllet drivers if you havent yet, and update windows reboot. If you have done all this, skip it.

For the scarllet is it plugged in directly to a usb 2.0 port? or on a hub? Any audio devices do best plugged directly in to usb 2.0 ports in general. A few need 3.0 ports, but not that unit. 2.0 is more than enough bandwidth. Hopefully you have more than two ports. Also, if you plug both in direct to the computer, pull out any other usb devices and see if that sorts it. if some other usb device is slow to respond, it can twirk the entire rig.
Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 29 2018, 04:17 PM) *
Okay, thanks. Problem is isolated. It's the Scarlett. Luckily I don't record from it now. I do need it to hear computer sound through my monitors though and to use Scarlett Mix Control. It's starting up 10 times quicker too and no hanging after rendering.

I need to get over to the Cockos people though. It does the same on both of my Won10 computers. Hopefully I can get it sorted. It's not a major ball ache pulling the USB out for rendering but I'd like it not to be like it.

Cheers

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 30 2018, 12:22 PM

Cheers Todd, yeah it's in a powered hub, the reason being I use it across two computers wink.gif

I'll try tonight.

Thanks

Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Nov 30 2018, 10:50 PM

Tonight I uninstalled mix control and keeping the usb in the hub I still had the same problem so that rules out mix control

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 1 2018, 03:44 AM

Its looking more and more like it's that hub. Yank that hub out of the way just for a test and plug the scarlett direclty in to a usb 2.0 port to give it all the bandwidth it might need. Try to only use direct connections for the test. E.g just the scarllet going right in. If you are on the laptop, use the laptop keyboard/mouse. Leave everything else unplugged.
Set the scarlett as input and output in reaper. Record/Playback/Export.

Let us know smile.gif

Todd


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Nov 30 2018, 05:50 PM) *
Tonight I uninstalled mix control and keeping the usb in the hub I still had the same problem so that rules out mix control


Posted by: Phil66 Dec 1 2018, 09:50 PM

Ok, I discovered something that I had forgotten.

First though, I don't need the Scarlett connected to USB really I just can't use the Scarlett Mix control without it. My Helix is my soundcard. The only issue I have is that when I swap from one computer to another, when I go back to the laptop it only uses its own built in speakers, I have to reboot in order to get the laptop to switch to the monitors even though "Helix" is showing as set to input and output.

The thing I had forgotten, which might be the issue is that the Hub is plugged into https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plugable-One-Button-Swapping-Between-Computers-No-plug/dp/B006Z0Q2SI so that I can share Helix, mouse, keyboard and Scarlett across two computers. I was originally only going to use my laptop for music because my desktop gets a lot of interference, I haven't really tested it with the Helix though. I do tend to use my laptop for 90% of things now though.

The powered hub is USB 3 but the switcher is USB 2.0, could this be the issue with the hanging?

Cheers

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 2 2018, 04:26 AM

The only way to test anything is to remove everything and try to record/playback/export then add one thing back in to the mix. If you add more than one thing at a time, you can't ever tell which one is the culprit. I get that the helix is your sound card, but for the purpose of just testing, you still gotta yank it out. You can really only test one machine at at time. Same procedure on both. Start with no usb devices if possible. (laptop makes it easier as it's got built in keyboard/mouse, the desktop will need a keyboard mouse but plug them direct don't use a hub as it's yet another variable). Try the record/play/export test starting with nothing (laptop) and only keyboard mouse (desktop) then add the scarlett only to the laptop and rec/ply/exp, then go to the desktop and plug the scarlett direct, rec/ply/export.

At that point, you can see what is actually happening with and without the scarlett. Then add one more device, again direct connect, no hub. same drill, rinse repeat. The only way to find out is to add one usb item at a time, direct connect, until you run out of ports and have to add the powered hub (not the switch yet) . At which point just add the hub and hub only and do the same rec/ply/exp on both. Then add one device to the hub rinse repeat. Eventually you will get up to adding that switch thing which could easily be the problem

It's a slow ardous process. But it's the only way to isolate the problem.
Todd

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 1 2018, 04:50 PM) *
Ok, I discovered something that I had forgotten.

First though, I don't need the Scarlett connected to USB really I just can't use the Scarlett Mix control without it. My Helix is my soundcard. The only issue I have is that when I swap from one computer to another, when I go back to the laptop it only uses its own built in speakers, I have to reboot in order to get the laptop to switch to the monitors even though "Helix" is showing as set to input and output.

The thing I had forgotten, which might be the issue is that the Hub is plugged into https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plugable-One-Button-Swapping-Between-Computers-No-plug/dp/B006Z0Q2SI so that I can share Helix, mouse, keyboard and Scarlett across two computers. I was originally only going to use my laptop for music because my desktop gets a lot of interference, I haven't really tested it with the Helix though. I do tend to use my laptop for 90% of things now though.

The powered hub is USB 3 but the switcher is USB 2.0, could this be the issue with the hanging?

Cheers

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 3 2018, 09:02 PM

Very strange,

Tonight I completely removed everything USB, plugged the Scarlett direct to the laptop and got the same issue of hanging. Disconnected the Scarlett and all was good. Plugged just the hub back in along with Scarlett in the hub and in the laptop with the hub connected, still hung. Hub connected and Scarlett disconnected, perfect.

Until Cockos come up with something I think the best option is just to pull the Scarlett cable before rendering.

Unless anyone has any other ideas??

I still keep on thinking about getting a MacBook Pro.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Mertay Dec 3 2018, 10:24 PM

I might have missed if answered, does it happen with a different daw (the presonus you loaded?)?

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 3 2018, 11:05 PM

Not tried one mate. Presonus isn't good for me. I'll look for another and try it.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Dec 4 2018, 01:18 AM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 3 2018, 11:05 PM) *
Not tried one mate. Presonus isn't good for me. I'll look for another and try it.


I was used to Cubase before Reaper, and at first I thought Reaper wasn't very intuitive, but having used Reaper for years now, I actually can't find anything as easy and intuitive! It's difficult smile.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 4 2018, 01:46 AM

You can get a used macbook from from 2013 and add an ssd drive and 16 gb of ram and have a very fine platform for music for far less than buying a new one. That's was what I did. I've never had those types of issues on my mac but then i've never used a scarlett. I've never heard of these issues with a scarlett til now. I hope your unit is not defective somehow.


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 3 2018, 04:02 PM) *
Very strange,

Tonight I completely removed everything USB, plugged the Scarlett direct to the laptop and got the same issue of hanging. Disconnected the Scarlett and all was good. Plugged just the hub back in along with Scarlett in the hub and in the laptop with the hub connected, still hung. Hub connected and Scarlett disconnected, perfect.

Until Cockos come up with something I think the best option is just to pull the Scarlett cable before rendering.

Unless anyone has any other ideas??

I still keep on thinking about getting a MacBook Pro.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Dec 4 2018, 02:14 AM

I have used both a Presonus and now a Scarlett with Reaper. Never had a problem.

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 4 2018, 10:30 AM

I posted on the Reaper forum about it. No replies really except one other user having the same issue.

Posted by: Mertay Dec 4 2018, 11:53 AM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 3 2018, 10:05 PM) *
Not tried one mate. Presonus isn't good for me. I'll look for another and try it.


Ok, cause if it happens with a different daw then we'll be sure reaper is not the problem.

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 4 2018, 01:50 PM

I'll get some free trials wink.gif

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 5 2018, 07:47 PM

Given that it performs fine from what I gather when you are using your internal sound card, it seems there is some sort of issue between your computer and the scarlett. You may have just gotten a bad unit. If it's not to late, I'd see if you can just get a replacement. If you bought from a reputable vendor, they should take it back and just send a new one smile.gif

Also, If I remember correctly, you are just using the scarlett as a volume knob correct? Since you have a full audio interface in your HELIX the Scarlett is mostly just there to have a big knob to turn for volume control right?

For about $30 you can get a USB volume knob that will do the same thing and let you get rid of the piece of gear that seems to be causing issues with your rig.

https://amzn.to/2Syxq8J


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 4 2018, 08:50 AM) *
I'll get some free trials wink.gif

Posted by: Mertay Dec 5 2018, 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 5 2018, 06:47 PM) *
https://amzn.to/2Syxq8J



Those type of devices scare me, any clip/pop from program or powerloss and it won't protect the speakers. The focusrite likely has a passive volume controller, so malfunction will be less damaging for the speakers.

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 5 2018, 09:34 PM

The Scarlett is too old to get a replacement.

I use it for direct monitoring from Helix, I record from Helix USB and have Helix xlr going into the front of the Scarlett so that my guitar comes out of the speakers with 100% zero latency.

Same happens on both computers, my Asus Laptop and my self build desktop.

Not much of a response on the Reaper forum so I think it must be rare.


Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 6 2018, 04:35 AM

This type of device doesn't actually pass any audio through it. So you've got nothing to worrry about in terms of that. It's just a volume knob that acts a software control of whatever sound device is active. So it's not possible for it to pass audio at all, so no clicks or pops wink.gif

QUOTE (Mertay @ Dec 5 2018, 03:48 PM) *
Those type of devices scare me, any clip/pop from program or powerloss and it won't protect the speakers. The focusrite likely has a passive volume controller, so malfunction will be less damaging for the speakers.


If you take the scarlet out of the chain, and just run xlr from the helix to your speakers, you still get zero latency as there would be nothing in between the helix and the speakers. Right now there is a scarlett between the helix and the speakers right? So your just removing a device. So it wouldn't increase latency. Which is good news smile.gif

The software usb volume control just does software control of your master volume. That's it. Just controls the main volume. So if I understand correctly how your rig it setup, it would just remove the part of your rig that is causing issues (the scarlett) and still give you a big knob for volume control and keep the zero latency. The device does not pass audio. Just acts a volume knob.

If you just use the helix, connected directly to a laptop for example, do you still get the same problems with export/clicks/etc. ?


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 5 2018, 04:34 PM) *
The Scarlett is too old to get a replacement.

I use it for direct monitoring from Helix, I record from Helix USB and have Helix xlr going into the front of the Scarlett so that my guitar comes out of the speakers with 100% zero latency.

Same happens on both computers, my Asus Laptop and my self build desktop.

Not much of a response on the Reaper forum so I think it must be rare.

Posted by: Mertay Dec 6 2018, 08:59 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 6 2018, 03:35 AM) *
This type of device doesn't actually pass any audio through it. So you've got nothing to worrry about in terms of that. It's just a volume knob that acts a software control of whatever sound device is active. So it's not possible for it to pass audio at all, so no clicks or pops wink.gif


Didn't read much info so I assumed it controls the main volume out of the system, if it integrates the helix fine but if not then its risky.

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 6 2018, 09:47 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 6 2018, 04:35 AM) *
If you take the scarlet out of the chain, and just run xlr from the helix to your speakers, you still get zero latency as there would be nothing in between the helix and the speakers. Right now there is a scarlett between the helix and the speakers right? So your just removing a device. So it wouldn't increase latency. Which is good news smile.gif

If you just use the helix, connected directly to a laptop for example, do you still get the same problems with export/clicks/etc. ?


Thanks Todd.

The thing is the Scarlet is right at hand so muting the speakers and adjusting volume for speakers and headphones is extremely simple whereas the Helix is on the floor underneath my desk, short term not a problem but day in day out it would be a ball ache.

I only get the problems when the Scarlett is connected. I may just try a 2nd Gen Scarlett I can always send it back if it gives issues wink.gif

Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Dec 6 2018, 12:06 PM

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 6 2018, 08:47 AM) *
Thanks Todd.

The thing is the Scarlet is right at hand so muting the speakers and adjusting volume for speakers and headphones is extremely simple whereas the Helix is on the floor underneath my desk, short term not a problem but day in day out it would be a ball ache.

I only get the problems when the Scarlett is connected. I may just try a 2nd Gen Scarlett I can always send it back if it gives issues wink.gif

Cheers


I went to a store years ago to buy my first studio monitors (and still use them). The store connect a cd player to a "mackie big knob" as monitor controller.

After listening the monitors with the cd I brought, I asked them to directly connect the speakers cause something was wrong although I wasn't familiar with any of the equipment there. First They didn't want to but I insisted (and almost got mad) and the sound was day and night. That cheap monitor controller sucked the life out of very good speakers.

I don't know the new-gen mackie's but included soundcard controllers (even the affordable ones) are not bad for a while now. I checked the web and a decent controller for me (better quality, headphone outs...) is pretty much as much as a soundcard. This for example;

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MC3--radial-mc3

So don't rush into swapping your current soundcard yet as we still are not 100% about the problem. I use my soundcard in a similar fashion, when the boss processor is off (and usually is) I use the soundcard to watch movies, listening music otherwise the processor would always be on and likely this would reduce its lifespan. When the processor is on, I use its software to tweak amp settings etc. but still feed into my soundcard.

I did test processor as soundcard vs connecting outs of the processor to soundcard in's and to be honest the tonal/noise improvement wasn't considerable. I guess unless I record something very important for me, wouldn't disable my soundcard.

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 6 2018, 12:33 PM

Ooooooooops. I've just ordered a 2nd Gen 18i8 to be here tomorrow. Thing is it's no problem because if I get the same issue I can just send it back saying that it causes freezing, I might even decide to keep it and sell my old one just because it is a better version. Either way I'm sure we'll get it sorted one way or another.

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Mertay Dec 6 2018, 01:39 PM

Cool

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 7 2018, 08:00 AM

It is just a knob that controls the master volume for whatever is set as the audio device on your computer. That's all smile.gif So if you were using a Helix as your audio device, it would control the master output for the Helix. At least that's what it's designed to do. And because it doesn't pass any audio through it, it won't click/pop etc. It's just software control of master volume. As if you used your mouse and just adjusted the master volume down or up. So any volume that can be software controlled by a mouse, can be controlled by the knob.

You wouldn't expect using a mouse to cause pops/clicks/audio artifacts when adjusting a volume level. Similarly, using a usb knob would be the same.


QUOTE (Mertay @ Dec 6 2018, 03:59 AM) *
Didn't read much info so I assumed it controls the main volume out of the system, if it integrates the helix fine but if not then its risky.



I think I get it now though, you are not connecting the scarlett to the computer at all, it's just taking the outs from the helix to give you speaker volume knob and separate headphone volume knob right?
The knob just controls one volume, you wouldn't need to move the helix, but the knob won't control speaker and headphone levels separately like I think you are getting from the scarlett? it's acting as a mini mixer?

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 6 2018, 04:47 AM) *
Thanks Todd.

The thing is the Scarlet is right at hand so muting the speakers and adjusting volume for speakers and headphones is extremely simple whereas the Helix is on the floor underneath my desk, short term not a problem but day in day out it would be a ball ache.

I only get the problems when the Scarlett is connected. I may just try a 2nd Gen Scarlett I can always send it back if it gives issues wink.gif

Cheers


This is the part I think I'm not clear on. I don't think he's using the scarlett as a sound card? I think he said hes just using it un connected as a mixer to control speaker and headphone volume separately? I think the helix is doing sound card dutY? But I could have the wrong idea about the setup.

To be clear that little knob is not a monitor controller. It's not a sound card. It's just a knob that controls the volume via software, just like using your mouse to drag a fader up in a daw.

QUOTE (Mertay @ Dec 6 2018, 07:06 AM) *
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MC3--radial-mc3

So don't rush into swapping your current soundcard yet as we still are not 100% about the problem. I u

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 7 2018, 08:05 AM

Thanks Todd,

I'll see what happens this evening as long as the new Scarlett comes before I leave work. I have all parcels delivered to work as it's easier wink.gif

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Mertay Dec 7 2018, 08:42 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 7 2018, 07:00 AM) *
...


My guess is that device takes control of the windows/mac system main volume control. Normally this is set to always highest and we adjust output from our soundcard.

After connecting this, lets say we lowered the system volume output to 50% as our default listening level. It would also mean we have to boost any volume output from other devices (focusrite, helix... anything that has a volume-out much be maxed or the volume will be too low).

If we had a sudden powerloss, any click/pop would be reduced by the focusrite normally (being passive volume controller, though actives may be the same too). But now that its (focusrite,helix...)boosted, and win/mac volume control is just digital that click/pop will hit the speakers at its strongest.

I suggested the radial (or anything else) if he ever want the helix to be the only soundcard in his system but would want something for comfort. But even though he's currently having problems, a soundcard is also good for not always keeping the processor on extending its lifespan.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 8 2018, 06:06 AM

I don't think you are getting what the little knob does. Its like using your mouse to control any volume on your rig that can be controlled via software, thus by a mouse. It's just a knob in stead of a mouse. That's it.

Whatever the primary sound device is for a given rig, the knob would be just like using a mouse to lower or raise it, but has a knob instead of x/y coordinates in a mouse.

You would not need to adjust the volume in any way unless you wanted to as the knob doesn't modify anything at all, in any way. So it doesn't mean having to boost anything.It doesn't "boost" the sound at all. If you lost power on your rig, having this usb knob would make no difference at all.
I don't know where you are getting that using a simple usb volume knob would mean having to boost volume from other devices?
Also, in a power loss, the scarlett, if used as a mixer, isn't going to help. It's just going to pass whatever it gets right to the monitors. It's just sitting in between the helix and the monitors/headpones.

The helix is a full functioning soundcard by itself. I don't understand what you mean by wanting something "for comfort"? I actually suggested just a cheap mixer so that he could have headphone and main volume control without any issues being caused currently by the helix. But I may be misunderstanding what he is trying to do.

I don't think he turns the helix off when he is mixing? so it's probably on most of the time, whether another sound device is present or not yeah?

Anyhoo, I was just trying to understand the rig and it started seeming like the scarlett was just serving as a heaphone/main volume controller, but causing all sorts of issues at the same time while plugged in via usb. if the scarlett usb is unplugged, then it really is just mixer. Which is fine, it makes a handy mixer from what I gather. smile.gif


QUOTE (Mertay @ Dec 7 2018, 03:42 AM) *
My guess is that device takes control of the windows/mac system main volume control. Normally this is set to always highest and we adjust output from our soundcard.

After connecting this, lets say we lowered the system volume output to 50% as our default listening level. It would also mean we have to boost any volume output from other devices (focusrite, helix... anything that has a volume-out much be maxed or the volume will be too low).

If we had a sudden powerloss, any click/pop would be reduced by the focusrite normally (being passive volume controller, though actives may be the same too). But now that its (focusrite,helix...)boosted, and win/mac volume control is just digital that click/pop will hit the speakers at its strongest.

I suggested the radial (or anything else) if he ever want the helix to be the only soundcard in his system but would want something for comfort. But even though he's currently having problems, a soundcard is also good for not always keeping the processor on extending its lifespan.

Posted by: Mertay Dec 8 2018, 08:51 AM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 8 2018, 05:06 AM) *
I don't think you are getting what the little knob does. Its like using your mouse to control any volume on your rig that can be controlled via software, thus by a mouse. It's just a knob in stead of a mouse. That's it.


I understand but suspect it only controls the main computer volume (next to the clock on windows) only and doesn't "takeover" a devices (like helix) volume control. Should be similar on mac and I bet your is at full on too cause you decrease your monitors through soundcard, otherwise you'd get extra noise.

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 8 2018, 05:06 AM) *
You would not need to adjust the volume in any way unless you wanted to as the knob doesn't modify anything at all, in any way. So it doesn't mean having to boost anything.It doesn't "boost" the sound at all. If you lost power on your rig, having this usb knob would make no difference at all.


Try this, decrease the volume with mouse on your mac (the main system volume, not soundcard software). Naturally the first thing you do is to increase the soundcards volume. So to make most use of the cheap volume controller, you have to adjust your soundcards volume out to full on and decrease from this device. Don't focus on the technical side as we're on the same page, imagine "in-use".

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 8 2018, 05:06 AM) *
I don't know where you are getting that using a simple usb volume knob would mean having to boost volume from other devices?
Also, in a power loss, the scarlett, if used as a mixer, isn't going to help. It's just going to pass whatever it gets right to the monitors. It's just sitting in between the helix and the monitors/headpones.


Trust me it will. I can't say for focusrite as I don't own it, but every other affordable soundcard I owned or worked with had a passive/active volume control (even Behringers have this as I'm using one now). Volume controllers these days are like the guitars volume pot, whatever you do to the PU's won't affect the amp when decreased but a digital volume controller isn't like that. I remember very old m-audio stuff's volume control was in reality just a digital control knob but these days manufacturers don't take the risk of blowing beginner hobbyist speakers. This is what I mean't from the beginning why such devices scare me.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 8 2018, 06:37 PM

The cheap usb knob just controls master volume on any rig. Also, my main system volume is my interface volume. I don't use my internal sound card for anything. I use my iconnect 4+ as my system sound/audio card/interface. As the default sound device, the cheap knob would just turn master volume up and down.

I'm not sure why you would want to run your internal sound card and an external audio interface at the same time? You mention turning one up, and one down? My interface is my system sound card. So whatever is assigned as the audio device default for a system (at least on my mac) is what gets the volume up down commands.

You may be thinking of how older devices worked. This is not that. It's just a knob that takes over volume control for whatever device is assigned as the audio device on a given system. My icconnect handles all the system sounds etc, as it's my "sound card". I never take it above 80 percent. Audio passes through the iconnect, no audio would pass through the knob, just as audio would not pass through a mouse. It's not an audio device. It's just a dumb controller. Make sense?


QUOTE (Mertay @ Dec 8 2018, 03:51 AM) *
I understand but suspect it only controls the main computer volume (next to the clock on windows) only and doesn't "takeover" a devices (like helix) volume control. Should be similar on mac and I bet your is at full on too cause you decrease your monitors through soundcard, otherwise you'd get extra noise.



Try this, decrease the volume with mouse on your mac (the main system volume, not soundcard software). Naturally the first thing you do is to increase the soundcards volume. So to make most use of the cheap volume controller, you have to adjust your soundcards volume out to full on and decrease from this device. Don't focus on the technical side as we're on the same page, imagine "in-use".



Trust me it will. I can't say for focusrite as I don't own it, but every other affordable soundcard I owned or worked with had a passive/active volume control (even Behringers have this as I'm using one now). Volume controllers these days are like the guitars volume pot, whatever you do to the PU's won't affect the amp when decreased but a digital volume controller isn't like that. I remember very old m-audio stuff's volume control was in reality just a digital control knob but these days manufacturers don't take the risk of blowing beginner hobbyist speakers. This is what I mean't from the beginning why such devices scare me.

Posted by: Mertay Dec 8 2018, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 8 2018, 05:37 PM) *
...


I can't comment on iconnectivity as I didn't try it yet. On my soundcard (and most affordable ones) there are 2 main volume outs. One is on the hardware soundcard, the other is digital (from computer).

When decreasing from the hardware soundcard where the monitors are connected (analog, let say from 100% to 80%) the sound decreases but the digital stays same (if was 100%, still is). This means the computer is digitally sending 100% output, but the hardware soundcard decreased the output to 80%.

This doesn't mean the iconnectivity doesn't have an analog volume controller, it may be hiding the computer main digital volume (keeping it 100% as it should be) and giving you a digital control for its analog volume controller.

So ideal volume control for a computer is sending digital volume 100%, for monitoring reasons decreased by a volume controller. It is why you'll see 1000's of dollar worth analog volume controllers; https://www.sweetwater.com/c417--Studio_Monitor_Management/high2low

But that cheap device will likely connect itself to the computers digital volume out, this is the potential problem.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 9 2018, 07:08 AM

This is where I'm getting confused. I've owned wads of audio interfaces over the years and tehy all had one master volume. Your saying that the ones you've used have 2 master volume outs? I've never had any experience with something like that. When you say "sound card" you are talking about an audio interface like the scarlett correct? Or are you talking about the internal sound card on a computer? When you say "the other is digital" are you talking about the SPDIF ouput that many units have? I"m just not clear on this.

When you say "digital stays the same" are you in reference to the SPDIF ouput jack on some interfaces that always runs at the same volume level?

On every interface I've ever owned, there was one Master Volume. When the interface is set as the primary sound device on a Mac, the mac treats that unit as it's "sound card". It's still just got the one main volume out. Units that have SPDIF out are just providing a way to get digital signal out of the unit. My 11 rack has spdif out for example. However, the spdif level doesn't change.

The usb knob acts just like a mouse dragging your master slider down in the control panel in one's preference pane on a mac. It's digital software control over the master volume output on the assigned sound device. There really isn't any potential for the issues you seem to be describing as far as I'm aware since no audio passes through the usb knob. It's just a periperhal. It's not an audio device as such. I think we are just chasing our tail at this point so I'll let you have the last word smile.gif
Todd

QUOTE (Mertay @ Dec 8 2018, 03:28 PM) *
I can't comment on iconnectivity as I didn't try it yet. On my soundcard (and most affordable ones) there are 2 main volume outs. One is on the hardware soundcard, the other is digital (from computer).

When decreasing from the hardware soundcard where the monitors are connected (analog, let say from 100% to 80%) the sound decreases but the digital stays same (if was 100%, still is). This means the computer is digitally sending 100% output, but the hardware soundcard decreased the output to 80%.

This doesn't mean the iconnectivity doesn't have an analog volume controller, it may be hiding the computer main digital volume (keeping it 100% as it should be) and giving you a digital control for its analog volume controller.

So ideal volume control for a computer is sending digital volume 100%, for monitoring reasons decreased by a volume controller. It is why you'll see 1000's of dollar worth analog volume controllers; https://www.sweetwater.com/c417--Studio_Monitor_Management/high2low

But that cheap device will likely connect itself to the computers digital volume out, this is the potential problem.

Posted by: Mertay Dec 9 2018, 08:27 AM

Only 1 soundcard, yes I'm talking about an interface like scarlett. Internal soundcards on PC too are disabled once you install a new soundcard on windows, the internal can be programmed to run midi independant with some adjustments but no one does that. No I don't refer to other outs like spdif.

Here is a picture of my system for reference;



-First on the down right; This is windows system main volume control (this is probably the cheap usb knob will attach itself to)
-Left; My soundcard software control, I pulled it down the master out to 50% to prove you they are not linked with the windows volume. It represents the soundcards (digital signal) main volume, normally its also set 100%
-you can't see it but my external hardware soundcards volume knob is set around 40%, its basic analog so digital can't control it.

As said, digital should always be set 100% and all control being analog is the ideal system (lowest noise and best speaker protection). Your soundcard on mac probably hides them (only shows digitally controlled analog) since they're mean't to stay 100% always anyway for a recording computer.


QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 9 2018, 06:08 AM) *
...

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