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GMC Forum _ Darius Wave _ Enlo22 - The Mighty Mixer Meister

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 23 2013, 08:58 AM

Hey mate! Post Your latest song from YT in the very first post and try to make detailed list of what gear and software You use for Your recordings wink.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Oct 24 2013, 12:01 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 23 2013, 07:58 AM) *
Hey mate! Post Your latest song from YT in the very first post and try to make detailed list of what gear and software You use for Your recordings wink.gif


lets see if i do this right haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl3EVXzPuXU

gear :
Line 6 Gx
Guitar rig 5
Reaper
Ez Drummer (dfh)
TrackS3 (EQ,Compression)
Bitter Sweet Flux 2

That's all I'm using currently!

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 24 2013, 08:47 AM

Great so let's start some fixes. Please send me (here as an attachment) a stereo mix of only drums tracks. Bestif it could be wav 16 bit PCM. I will take a close look at the spectrum analyzer and give You some tips where You could look at. At the same time please download and install Voxendo Span:

http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

It's probably one of the most efficient free analyzer plug-in out there. I'll show You how to work with it so You could judge how much You can trust Your speakers and how much thye analyzer (to make Your mix sound good not only on Your own speakers) smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Oct 24 2013, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 24 2013, 07:47 AM) *
Great so let's start some fixes. Please send me (here as an attachment) a stereo mix of only drums tracks. Bestif it could be wav 16 bit PCM. I will take a close look at the spectrum analyzer and give You some tips where You could look at. At the same time please download and install Voxendo Span:

http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

It's probably one of the most efficient free analyzer plug-in out there. I'll show You how to work with it so You could judge how much You can trust Your speakers and how much thye analyzer (to make Your mix sound good not only on Your own speakers) smile.gif



ok man lets hope I did it right! and i'm going to download that analyzer now! thanks for the help man.
One of them is the drums and the other one is the whole track using the new plug in! sucks that it cuts out because it's the demo verson :/ good thing I got a job today haha

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 25 2013, 10:50 AM

Two very important things


1. Do You setup drums only in the EZ mixer or You use "multitrack option" andedit each drum track as a DAW track?

2. Do You draw to midi file or record from external midi keyboard or something. Bass drum has to low velocity so it doesn't give You full attack and as a result we have only a "plastic" shadow of attack rather than nice and equal attack. Veleocity changes are a must when You have very dense drums parts and don't want to sound like like a drum machine - then it's good to make for example 1 3 5 7 beats with full velocity (127) and bit lower (115) with 2 4 6 8 beats. This is what usually happens naturally while drummer play - even less velocity - usually the faster they play, the less time to give full strength so it's naturall that fast runs are lower "velocity". This is one of the very first things people forget why programming the drums and then they claim that "the drum machine sound unnatrual". The truth is the we can make it sound natural as far as we take some time for deep analyzis of what exactly drummers do - accent, ghost notes, velocity differances.
It's a most important thing to start while learning to program the drums.

In my case when drums play slow parts (in rock metal) the bass drum and snare drum goes with 127 velocity (same with cymbals). It's a matter of tone. Doesn't work with every single beat (there are moments that need lower velocity but those usually are some breaks, cymbal accents on soft parts of the songs, drum rolls snare crescendos)

Posted by: enlo22 Oct 25 2013, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 25 2013, 09:50 AM) *
Two very important things


1. Do You setup drums only in the EZ mixer or You use "multitrack option" andedit each drum track as a DAW track?

2. Do You draw to midi file or record from external midi keyboard or something. Bass drum has to low velocity so it doesn't give You full attack and as a result we have only a "plastic" shadow of attack rather than nice and equal attack. Veleocity changes are a must when You have very dense drums parts and don't want to sound like like a drum machine - then it's good to make for example 1 3 5 7 beats with full velocity (127) and bit lower (115) with 2 4 6 8 beats. This is what usually happens naturally while drummer play - even less velocity - usually the faster they play, the less time to give full strength so it's naturall that fast runs are lower "velocity". This is one of the very first things people forget why programming the drums and then they claim that "the drum machine sound unnatrual". The truth is the we can make it sound natural as far as we take some time for deep analyzis of what exactly drummers do - accent, ghost notes, velocity differances.
It's a most important thing to start while learning to program the drums.

In my case when drums play slow parts (in rock metal) the bass drum and snare drum goes with 127 velocity (same with cymbals). It's a matter of tone. Doesn't work with every single beat (there are moments that need lower velocity but those usually are some breaks, cymbal accents on soft parts of the songs, drum rolls snare crescendos)



Yes I'm using the Multitrack option and i edit each track separately,
In this case I used a track from Guitar Pro and imported the midi into Reaper. I will take a look at the bass drum velocity!

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 25 2013, 06:50 PM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Oct 25 2013, 03:17 PM) *
Yes I'm using the Multitrack option and i edit each track separately,
In this case I used a track from Guitar Pro and imported the midi into Reaper. I will take a look at the bass drum velocity!



Try to recheck and improve all tracks velocity

Posted by: enlo22 Oct 28 2013, 06:53 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 25 2013, 05:50 PM) *
Try to recheck and improve all tracks velocity


ok i checked all tracks velocity and followed what you said! seems to have improved in my ears, but i'm obviously not the best judge haha!
just wanted to say thanks again for taking the time to guide me through this. looking forward to your reply.
PS: I really need to get a bass!

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 28 2013, 11:20 AM

Indeed it's better. You loose a lot of energy because of the cymbals being much too quiet Believe me - Your guitar tone is that much clear, that it will cut through the mix even if You add some extra 3 dB's of overheads. I usually set the proportion between overheads and room track in the DFH mixer and than send both to one, stereo DAW track. I usually set the High Pass Filter very high to get rid of all the low and boomy mids out of the cymbals. Can You show me Your symbals EQ print screen?

Tell me what Reverb plug-ins do You have so we coudl add some space to those drums

Posted by: enlo22 Oct 28 2013, 02:40 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 28 2013, 10:20 AM) *
Indeed it's better. You loose a lot of energy because of the cymbals being much too quiet Believe me - Your guitar tone is that much clear, that it will cut through the mix even if You add some extra 3 dB's of overheads. I usually set the proportion between overheads and room track in the DFH mixer and than send both to one, stereo DAW track. I usually set the High Pass Filter very high to get rid of all the low and boomy mids out of the cymbals. Can You show me Your symbals EQ print screen?

Tell me what Reverb plug-ins do You have so we coudl add some space to those drums



I don't have any eq in the cymbals at allll! the only reverb I have is the reverb that comes with reaper :/

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 28 2013, 03:19 PM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Oct 28 2013, 02:40 PM) *
I don't have any eq in the cymbals at allll! the only reverb I have is the reverb that comes with reaper :/



One of most common tips is having more than one tracks (groups / fx tracks) of the same reverb with different length but the same color and room size / predelay settings.

for example sometimes snare like long reverb at full spectrum to sound natural while cymbals would make a lot of mess at the same reverb settings. Basic process looks like this:

1. Add 2 separated, stereo FX channels
2. Turn on some reverb on both
3. Setup the roomsize (both the same)
4. Set up length / decay - like short one and long one (0,4 and 0,8 s for example)
5. Set mix to 100% wet
6. Use send option from each drum track to send only as much signal to reverb as necessary

This sould help a bit:



Try to get familiar with this and let me know so we can progress with "how to find best reverb setting and mix"

Posted by: enlo22 Oct 28 2013, 05:59 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 28 2013, 02:19 PM) *
One of most common tips is having more than one tracks (groups / fx tracks) of the same reverb with different length but the same color and room size / predelay settings.

for example sometimes snare like long reverb at full spectrum to sound natural while cymbals would make a lot of mess at the same reverb settings. Basic process looks like this:

1. Add 2 separated, stereo FX channels
2. Turn on some reverb on both
3. Setup the roomsize (both the same)
4. Set up length / decay - like short one and long one (0,4 and 0,8 s for example)
5. Set mix to 100% wet
6. Use send option from each drum track to send only as much signal to reverb as necessary

This sould help a bit:



Try to get familiar with this and let me know so we can progress with "how to find best reverb setting and mix"


I set one to .4 and the other to .8ms
sent tracks over to them and here's what i have! man i see the improvement and it's awesome, i feel like the crappy mixes damped my guitar playing before.

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 31 2013, 11:46 AM

And now the low end of bass drum is not tham boomy and annoying smile.gif That's clear progress smile.gif DFH overheads are already highly eq-ed some in some cases they are ok without any additional EQ-ing. Now let's make some bass.

You have a lot of different options for it but let's start from the simpliest smile.gif

Try to get:

4Front bass (it's free, You ) - You can write Your bass through midi and it'll sound pretty natural

Amplitube 1.1 has a nice rock solid bass preset that will add more rock/metal spirit to that bass

Let me know when You get those

Posted by: enlo22 Oct 31 2013, 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 31 2013, 10:46 AM) *
And now the low end of bass drum is not tham boomy and annoying smile.gif That's clear progress smile.gif DFH overheads are already highly eq-ed some in some cases they are ok without any additional EQ-ing. Now let's make some bass.

You have a lot of different options for it but let's start from the simpliest smile.gif

Try to get:

4Front bass (it's free, You ) - You can write Your bass through midi and it'll sound pretty natural

Amplitube 1.1 has a nice rock solid bass preset that will add more rock/metal spirit to that bass

Let me know when You get those


I downloaded the 4front bass. can i use guitar rig with it? and i tried the midi thing but it's soooo complicated for me to get the timing right idk why!!

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 1 2013, 05:36 PM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Oct 31 2013, 07:51 PM) *
I downloaded the 4front bass. can i use guitar rig with it? and i tried the midi thing but it's soooo complicated for me to get the timing right idk why!!



Well ...try to Youe snap option and select rhythm values to algin too in You Daw. Of course if You didn't do it Yet. Drawing with "snap" otion on is even easier that manually playing the keyboard. But if it's "off" than it could take a bit more time

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 2 2013, 08:23 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 1 2013, 04:36 PM) *
Well ...try to Youe snap option and select rhythm values to algin too in You Daw. Of course if You didn't do it Yet. Drawing with "snap" otion on is even easier that manually playing the keyboard. But if it's "off" than it could take a bit more time


here's a bit of it with bass. My computer has been lagging like crazy!! so idk what to do! i probably need more RAM because it's impossible to work with at the moment :/

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 4 2013, 03:27 PM

Yes indeed it might be a matter of RAM. Unfortunatel while inscreasing the usage of DAW abilities it does take more and more CPU and RAM ussage. Also what are You PC parameters?

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 4 2013, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 4 2013, 02:27 PM) *
Yes indeed it might be a matter of RAM. Unfortunatel while inscreasing the usage of DAW abilities it does take more and more CPU and RAM ussage. Also what are You PC parameters?


to be honest i have no idea, it's honestlly a piece of crap, i plan on getting a new one soon. As for now do you have anymore tips on mixing?? i've really been enjoying this mentoring thing!

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 12 2013, 11:18 PM

I'm sorry - I've been switching to a new PC myself because it did suck too smile.gif I can't promise it's true but with some older PC devices I had always some problem with any kind of USB audio device. Now I have a Presonus firewire 1394 and it worked best from anything I had. I was stable as hell even on my old PC. I could work with a lot of tracks and tons of vst (I use mostly vst) so You might be another example of interface limitations more than PC itself. I had this GX too and I was able to work with a guitar tracks only pretty well but...I porly handled full sessions. Is Your PC a notebook or a regular "huge" PC that You could plug (cheap as hell) firewire additional card for PCI and then plug a Firewire audio interface (worth thinking of buying one...even used and old one) I bet Your memory problems starts at the level of GX....

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 13 2013, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 12 2013, 10:18 PM) *
I'm sorry - I've been switching to a new PC myself because it did suck too smile.gif I can't promise it's true but with some older PC devices I had always some problem with any kind of USB audio device. Now I have a Presonus firewire 1394 and it worked best from anything I had. I was stable as hell even on my old PC. I could work with a lot of tracks and tons of vst (I use mostly vst) so You might be another example of interface limitations more than PC itself. I had this GX too and I was able to work with a guitar tracks only pretty well but...I porly handled full sessions. Is Your PC a notebook or a regular "huge" PC that You could plug (cheap as hell) firewire additional card for PCI and then plug a Firewire audio interface (worth thinking of buying one...even used and old one) I bet Your memory problems starts at the level of GX....



i'm glad you got a good pc now! yeah mine is just an old laptop lol a gateway from 2008! i think a new interface would improve performance as well! also purchasing a bass lol

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 14 2013, 02:30 PM

Good interface really deos a job but I'm still confused about usb devices. Mostly about not knowing the reason of direct monitoring issues...:/ I now own Presonus audio box usb at work and still didn't find a good setup that solves the problem. Now funny thing - I've got a pretty old presonus inspire 1394 firewire at home...and it's stable as hell and even works perfect with new PC.

Did You try to change the buffer size of gx processing?

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 17 2013, 01:07 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 14 2013, 01:30 PM) *
Good interface really deos a job but I'm still confused about usb devices. Mostly about not knowing the reason of direct monitoring issues...:/ I now own Presonus audio box usb at work and still didn't find a good setup that solves the problem. Now funny thing - I've got a pretty old presonus inspire 1394 firewire at home...and it's stable as hell and even works perfect with new PC.

Did You try to change the buffer size of gx processing?

'

everything with the recording goes well, it's just when i open tons of plug ins lol I think i'll have to wait till i get a better computer and work with what i have now. do you have anymore tips on mixing? i feel like i was really improving and i want to keep on going! smile.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 17 2013, 12:10 PM

No worries man! But first try to answer about the buffer size (it's changeable in the GX control panel). You can always make smaller buffer and turn of some of the plug-ins when You want to record guitars but...When You need more memory usage for finall mixing, You can make huge buffer size.

Believe me...Your PC is not that bad. I'm so pissed of for all those usb audio devices. Firewire wa much more stable I handled way advanced sessions with tons of plug-ins on the very simple PC. For example:

My old PC was Athlon 2 x 2,6 Dual Core + 2 GB RAM. I used it with Presonus inspire 1394 interface. Worked for Years! I could have virtual drums, all drums vst plug-ins added, a few reverbs on the FX sends, Virtual orchestra , Virtual keyboards, at least 3 to 4 amp sim + 1 bass amp sim and compressors, EQs and a lot more in one session. I could even record guitars with low latency. It worked really fine.

Now ...At work I have Asus KI50 (or something like this) with T4200 (also dual but much more efficient processor than Athlon) 4 Gb ram and a few more parameters like disc sped and ram speed much better than the PC mentioned before. And I plug a USB audio box to it and guess what? It's worth nothing. It works without a crackling only on the highest buffer size wchich is useless for live monitoring while You want to record guitars on the vst amps. I'm angry ass hell because it's very hard to find notebooks with firewire and texas instruments chipset right now and the USB substitute sucks. I wouldn't write this If I didn't try to make it work for almost year.


Good news is...Firewire devices become "old stuff" so they got cheaper, yet more efficient on older PC's. You will probably buy one in the very good price range. Try to google presounus Inspire 1394 firewire

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 17 2013, 03:25 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 17 2013, 12:10 PM) *
No worries man! But first try to answer about the buffer size (it's changeable in the GX control panel). You can always make smaller buffer and turn of some of the plug-ins when You want to record guitars but...When You need more memory usage for finall mixing, You can make huge buffer size.

Believe me...Your PC is not that bad. I'm so pissed of for all those usb audio devices. Firewire wa much more stable I handled way advanced sessions with tons of plug-ins on the very simple PC. For example:

My old PC was Athlon 2 x 2,6 Dual Core + 2 GB RAM. I used it with Presonus inspire 1394 interface. Worked for Years! I could have virtual drums, all drums vst plug-ins added, a few reverbs on the FX sends, Virtual orchestra , Virtual keyboards, at least 3 to 4 amp sim + 1 bass amp sim and compressors, EQs and a lot more in one session. I could even record guitars with low latency. It worked really fine.

Now ...At work I have Asus KI50 (or something like this) with T4200 (also dual but much more efficient processor than Athlon) 4 Gb ram and a few more parameters like disc sped and ram speed much better than the PC mentioned before. And I plug a USB audio box to it and guess what? It's worth nothing. It works without a crackling only on the highest buffer size wchich is useless for live monitoring while You want to record guitars on the vst amps. I'm angry ass hell because it's very hard to find notebooks with firewire and texas instruments chipset right now and the USB substitute sucks. I wouldn't write this If I didn't try to make it work for almost year.


Good news is...Firewire devices become "old stuff" so they got cheaper, yet more efficient on older PC's. You will probably buy one in the very good price range. Try to google presounus Inspire 1394 firewire


Sorry for butting in just to echo what Darius is saying and I thought that Darius may find this helpful/interesting:

FW sends data as a bidirectional stream rather than as packets, which is how USB does audio. Part of the thing with packet transmission is that the device has to wait until it has received all of the packet before it can start to receive/send a new one. FW also has dedicated bus bandwidth for the synchronous/isosynchronous stream whilst USB shares a bus with other devices. USB can therefore suffer audio issues that just doesn't occur with FW. FW also taxes the cpu much less than USB as it has a dedicated controller. All of this results in a situation where FW is better at audio than USB 1, 1.1 and 2.

USB audio performance is much better though if you use stream length asynchronous USB but many, particularly the prosumer models, only use adaptive mode. Asynchronous here results in lower jitter than adaptive as the latter needs to check the computer's master clock every 1ms or so via a frequency synthesiser. As the computer is doing many other things you end up with timing variations in the audio transfer which in turn induce jitter and you end up with what sounds like a distorted and noisy signal.

If you use USB it may be worth checking where the card is placed and what other peripherals it shares that with. You might possibly get a performance improvement by moving the card to a different slot and so change what devices share with it. But performance is also abut how good the drivers and hardware are. If you use audio device which has poor drivers and poor chips it won't matter if its FW or USB it will still suck.

If you're getting clicks and pops these may be down to timing/jitter. If this is the case you should set one device as the master clock and slave any other external device to it. There are other, often more probable, causes of pops and clicks though starting with the usual buffer size. Others include incorrect transfer settings for an IDE hard drive (it should be DMA), background tasks running, old PCI cards sending interupts to the cpu...

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 17 2013, 05:12 PM

I think i found a good solution which is to use Podfarm to send the clean signal to reaper and then i set up the GX into reaper as an ASIO instead of ASIO4ALL because that's why it was lagging like crazyyy. I also found the buffer size, which also helped! smile.gif thanks for the tip, when i have money i'lll look into other interfaces which would work better for me! i'm going to send you some of the thigns i've been working on so you can have a look at it!

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 18 2013, 04:15 AM

here's something new, it's part of a song i'm working on now smile.gif as always your mixing tips are super welcomed!
still now bass though :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWZBGQqCbHY

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 18 2013, 02:40 PM

Nice work! Your nex raw song sample sounds better. The lack of bass hurts as hell. Did You try to launch 4fronbass after You figured out about the correct asio option ?smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 19 2013, 07:06 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 18 2013, 01:40 PM) *
Nice work! Your nex raw song sample sounds better. The lack of bass hurts as hell. Did You try to launch 4fronbass after You figured out about the correct asio option ?smile.gif


yes I finally figured out the ASIO thing! smile.gif i agree the lack of bass does impact it :/ hopefully i can get my hands on one soon! as for the fronbass i will have to deff add it for now, just trying to get the guitar parts to mash up well lol, i can't think of an ending for the track!

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 19 2013, 12:42 PM

The problem is that...guitars are the juicy middle frequencies in the mix. Take a close look at some modern recording...Se how thin guitar sounds when it's left alone for some "no bass, no drums" break. Whole trick about metal music is that people create ultra solid low end feel that we consider guitars being powerfull but the truth is that their power is in the bass drum and bass good fit. This is why It's so important. Messing with guitar low end is useless because You'll might find You have to change everything again once You add the bass smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 21 2013, 12:40 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 19 2013, 11:42 AM) *
The problem is that...guitars are the juicy middle frequencies in the mix. Take a close look at some modern recording...Se how thin guitar sounds when it's left alone for some "no bass, no drums" break. Whole trick about metal music is that people create ultra solid low end feel that we consider guitars being powerfull but the truth is that their power is in the bass drum and bass good fit. This is why It's so important. Messing with guitar low end is useless because You'll might find You have to change everything again once You add the bass smile.gif



ok here's a part of it with bass that i have added. i'm still super confused now that the bass is added!

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 21 2013, 12:54 PM

Ok...Now. 4Front bass sounds not good to metal at all. It needs some other plug in...

Try to download Bass tube amplifier here:

http://www.igniteamps.com/en/audio-plug-ins

and kefir impulse loader.
+ some bass cab impulses

Try to serah from this point. I remember I found some cool ampeg cab impulses

http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1096

Load ignite amp + kefir to the bass vst audio track inserts. Ignite sounds cooliven without a cab but If You like more sharp tone of the bass than cab impulse will give very cool and sharp midrange.

Also...I think You should make the bass line much more "copy-like" of the guitars to get more solid tone.

All the things we do now relate to the most important aspects of recording. Beofre going to the real mixing thing (eq, compression tec) we need to make sure about all the playing, raw recorded instruments tone fit to each other. Very often when we have those things done well, then mixing is just a soft color change of whole that thing but not the key to make it sound good smile.gif

That's way we took so many attention to

1. Arrange
2. Drums samples choice
3. Velocity
4. bass plug-in choice
5. Bass amp sim plug-in

etc...


Your guitar tone is ok for now and We'll go back to it as quick as we handle the section set up smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 21 2013, 05:55 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 21 2013, 11:54 AM) *
Ok...Now. 4Front bass sounds not good to metal at all. It needs some other plug in...

Try to download Bass tube amplifier here:

http://www.igniteamps.com/en/audio-plug-ins

and kefir impulse loader.
+ some bass cab impulses

Try to serah from this point. I remember I found some cool ampeg cab impulses

http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1096

Load ignite amp + kefir to the bass vst audio track inserts. Ignite sounds cooliven without a cab but If You like more sharp tone of the bass than cab impulse will give very cool and sharp midrange.

Also...I think You should make the bass line much more "copy-like" of the guitars to get more solid tone.

All the things we do now relate to the most important aspects of recording. Beofre going to the real mixing thing (eq, compression tec) we need to make sure about all the playing, raw recorded instruments tone fit to each other. Very often when we have those things done well, then mixing is just a soft color change of whole that thing but not the key to make it sound good smile.gif

That's way we took so many attention to

1. Arrange
2. Drums samples choice
3. Velocity
4. bass plug-in choice
5. Bass amp sim plug-in

etc...


Your guitar tone is ok for now and We'll go back to it as quick as we handle the section set up smile.gif



I actually made the "bass" by using my guitar tongue.gif which i don't know if it's the best idea at all, i just was told to try it by someone. I took the shifter thing and took it down -12 semitones. Maybe it was a dumb idea lol. I have the kefir thing. For some reason i can't seem to get used to writing the stuff on MIDI! it drives me crazy, I redid it with the ignite amp, and this is what it came out like

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 23 2013, 05:13 PM

No I'm afraid it still doesn't do the job. I tried many times but:

1. Once going octave down with audio processing, the tune is not stable enough
2. Bass guitar will have much more high mid and treble harmonics which makes Your bass have nice attack and also will be visible even on laptop speakers smile.gif

Learning how to draw midi files is a must If You want to achieve descent recordings. One of the reasons is that if You're not a skilled piano player You might not get good dynamics and timming results just by playing on the midi keyboard (believe me). I can play keyboard a bit but...very often need to correct the "drawings" anyway because of failed timming or dynamics (maybe You're better piano player than me but...if not...lear to draw - it will help You a lot with maaaany things


I can show You a quick sample of full signal chain for bass metal tone using 4front bass, ignite tube bass amp and kefir + bass impulse. 4Front bass is very muddy sounding precission bass sampler. It's raw sound is far away from being metal but...possible to fit the mix well enough even with it's loss of presence.

Audio sample:

 bass_4front_sample.wav ( 1.35MB ) : 173


Every midi instrument has it's audio output track too so You can insert all the amp sim, cab, eq plug-ins like

1. Ignite amps:



2. Kefir impulse loader:



3. EQ




Those particular screens show You exaclty the settings for this audio sample

IMPORTANT! - those settings are just a "how could it sound" but will not sound well everywhere - each mix needs individual eq-ing.
Those are just a good starting point to tweak As You can see the "boxy" low mids are cutted (that's the space for guitars, toms ,snare body ect in the whole mix). In most of my recordings I usually only need to cut the man bass drum frequency in the bass guitar track and cut those low mids...but this one needs extra high mids addition because raw sample is very dark on it's own. In terms of professional mixing it would probably go to trash and the sound engeneer would say "go and borrow a bass that fit's this kind of playing" rather than trying to make miracles with EQ compression etc. Raw recoreded instruments sound is 80 % sound of the mix.


Here You have the bass impulse I used:

 Ampeg_V4_B_custom_beta52.wav ( 14.24K ) : 141



You can easily fin Kefir loader to download in google wink.gif


Now I don't know how it looks in reaper but in Cubase when You click on the midi track (the one You send to 4Front bass) You have also a link (place with mouse on the print screen) where You can launch normal (same as regular audio track) options for the sound You get from (not before) the 4Front bass. Rest of the plug-ins will "see it" as a regular bass wave.




Try to launch it on Your PC and let me know how it went smile.gif



Posted by: enlo22 Nov 23 2013, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 23 2013, 04:13 PM) *
No I'm afraid it still doesn't do the job. I tried many times but:

1. Once going octave down with audio processing, the tune is not stable enough
2. Bass guitar will have much more high mid and treble harmonics which makes Your bass have nice attack and also will be visible even on laptop speakers smile.gif

Learning how to draw midi files is a must If You want to achieve descent recordings. One of the reasons is that if You're not a skilled piano player You might not get good dynamics and timming results just by playing on the midi keyboard (believe me). I can play keyboard a bit but...very often need to correct the "drawings" anyway because of failed timming or dynamics (maybe You're better piano player than me but...if not...lear to draw - it will help You a lot with maaaany things


I can show You a quick sample of full signal chain for bass metal tone using 4front bass, ignite tube bass amp and kefir + bass impulse. 4Front bass is very muddy sounding precission bass sampler. It's raw sound is far away from being metal but...possible to fit the mix well enough even with it's loss of presence.

Audio sample:

 bass_4front_sample.wav ( 1.35MB ) : 173


Every midi instrument has it's audio output track too so You can insert all the amp sim, cab, eq plug-ins like

1. Ignite amps:



2. Kefir impulse loader:



3. EQ




Those particular screens show You exaclty the settings for this audio sample

IMPORTANT! - those settings are just a "how could it sound" but will not sound well everywhere - each mix needs individual eq-ing.
Those are just a good starting point to tweak As You can see the "boxy" low mids are cutted (that's the space for guitars, toms ,snare body ect in the whole mix). In most of my recordings I usually only need to cut the man bass drum frequency in the bass guitar track and cut those low mids...but this one needs extra high mids addition because raw sample is very dark on it's own. In terms of professional mixing it would probably go to trash and the sound engeneer would say "go and borrow a bass that fit's this kind of playing" rather than trying to make miracles with EQ compression etc. Raw recoreded instruments sound is 80 % sound of the mix.


Here You have the bass impulse I used:

 Ampeg_V4_B_custom_beta52.wav ( 14.24K ) : 141



You can easily fin Kefir loader to download in google wink.gif


Now I don't know how it looks in reaper but in Cubase when You click on the midi track (the one You send to 4Front bass) You have also a link (place with mouse on the print screen) where You can launch normal (same as regular audio track) options for the sound You get from (not before) the 4Front bass. Rest of the plug-ins will "see it" as a regular bass wave.




Try to launch it on Your PC and let me know how it went smile.gif



ok I used the Ignite with the Kefir, and the eq that you posted tongue.gif I changed some of the guitars from a toturial from youtube, so this is the latest sound

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 23 2013, 11:34 PM

If You can please turn of the guitars for now. Send me just the drums and bass mix. At the moment guitar lay over bass to much. They don't gibe solid low end. Also...drums sound very monophonic. Please list exactly how You set up all drums outputs. Also.. You drums reverb sound like mono fx track ...make sure You add stereo FX track for reverb plug-in. We are styill far away from messing with the mids which is crutial to metal playing - all the feel of heavyness is correct mid scoop. Please install Span and turn it on to the main output track of Your DAW session so You will see frequency analysis of all mix.

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 25 2013, 12:49 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 23 2013, 10:34 PM) *
If You can please turn of the guitars for now. Send me just the drums and bass mix. At the moment guitar lay over bass to much. They don't gibe solid low end. Also...drums sound very monophonic. Please list exactly how You set up all drums outputs. Also.. You drums reverb sound like mono fx track ...make sure You add stereo FX track for reverb plug-in. We are styill far away from messing with the mids which is crutial to metal playing - all the feel of heavyness is correct mid scoop. Please install Span and turn it on to the main output track of Your DAW session so You will see frequency analysis of all mix.


ok so I got Superior Drummer! smile.gif i'm super happy BUT it's new to me, the way I sent the drum tracks are with the multichannel. Here's the bass and drums alone, I think superior drummer might help me hopefully! i've been watching youtube videos and stuff to mixing etc too!

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 25 2013, 11:16 AM

Great You got supperior. DFH sounds too plastic for my taste. Toomuch post-processing done.

Now...first of All. show me the print screen of SPAN while the bass drum hit. We want to find main bass drum frequency in the low freq range. Try to type the value of the highest point of the low end frewq from the bass drum You choose. We want to cut if from the bass track. Your bass is much to quiet. I think that at least 3-4 dB boost is necessary.

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 25 2013, 04:46 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 25 2013, 10:16 AM) *
Great You got supperior. DFH sounds too plastic for my taste. Toomuch post-processing done.

Now...first of All. show me the print screen of SPAN while the bass drum hit. We want to find main bass drum frequency in the low freq range. Try to type the value of the highest point of the low end frewq from the bass drum You choose. We want to cut if from the bass track. Your bass is much to quiet. I think that at least 3-4 dB boost is necessary.


how do I do the print screen! sorry i'm dumb ahha, i iwll boost the bass for now!

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 25 2013, 06:37 PM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Nov 25 2013, 03:46 PM) *
how do I do the print screen! sorry i'm dumb ahha, i iwll boost the bass for now!



hahha I figured it out on google! so here's the screen shot

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 25 2013, 07:55 PM

was the bass guitar muted when You were doing that screen ? smile.gif It has to be...we only want to see where's the bass drum main frequency smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 26 2013, 06:36 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 25 2013, 06:55 PM) *
was the bass guitar muted when You were doing that screen ? smile.gif It has to be...we only want to see where's the bass drum main frequency smile.gif


that's with the bass muted on the other one i had the setting type as RT max so maybe thats why! but this one is just the kickdrum alone

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 26 2013, 09:08 AM

Ok...what You have to know from this screen is that the bass drum low punch is aroung 65- 67 Hz.


Now watchj this region closely while You add bass guitar. It will probably boost. This way You have only one narrow frequency range that makes this "boom" effect and a loss of nice and equal, whole low end.

One of the ideas is to cut 67 Hz (in this particular case) on the bass guitar track - very narrow but deep cut. Then add the bass volume until You get the feel of nice solid end.Bass will not take away the bass-drum punch because it will lack of it's main frequency.

Whole idea of good mix and arrange is to get freq fullnes and avoid instruments overlaying too much on the same frequencies.

Try to make thatcur in the bass and increase it's volume. You can even cur up to 13dB

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 26 2013, 05:13 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 26 2013, 08:08 AM) *
Ok...what You have to know from this screen is that the bass drum low punch is aroung 65- 67 Hz.


Now watchj this region closely while You add bass guitar. It will probably boost. This way You have only one narrow frequency range that makes this "boom" effect and a loss of nice and equal, whole low end.

One of the ideas is to cut 67 Hz (in this particular case) on the bass guitar track - very narrow but deep cut. Then add the bass volume until You get the feel of nice solid end.Bass will not take away the bass-drum punch because it will lack of it's main frequency.

Whole idea of good mix and arrange is to get freq fullnes and avoid instruments overlaying too much on the same frequencies.

Try to make thatcur in the bass and increase it's volume. You can even cur up to 13dB



awesome man! deff makes the bass pop out more and not be all mushy haha! anymore things to do? i'm excited cause it's improving!

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 26 2013, 11:56 PM

ok now I need You to post here raw audio mix of bass drum only! and it's span view screen. Also...if You made any EQ on bass drum already post the settings to (print screen would be best)

Also...The reason we do this is that all audio speakers have different sound - some gaps in freq spectrum, some freq are boosted some a are cut a bit. If We try to fill the whole frequency range equally we have more confidence it will sound ok on many different speakers type.

One of very first trap waiting for beginner mixing guys is that You can make Your record sound good on Your gear but when You go to someone else You hear a lot of things to fix. As a comparison You have Your favorite band record and it does sound either at Your home and Your friends home. This is the most ricky part of mixing. This is also why we have to trust stuff like SPAN to avoid issues that might be caused by our gear or room.

I usually try to make bass guitar flowing around main bass-drum frequency os the both give smooth line in the low end yet still make possible to hear the low bass drum punch without getting it too loud. The problem You have just discovered is one of that trap factors smile.gif You had very narrow freqency range at low end that made You feel it's enough bass in the mix...but...it was probably only on Your speakers

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 27 2013, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 26 2013, 10:56 PM) *
ok now I need You to post here raw audio mix of bass drum only! and it's span view screen. Also...if You made any EQ on bass drum already post the settings to (print screen would be best)

Also...The reason we do this is that all audio speakers have different sound - some gaps in freq spectrum, some freq are boosted some a are cut a bit. If We try to fill the whole frequency range equally we have more confidence it will sound ok on many different speakers type.

One of very first trap waiting for beginner mixing guys is that You can make Your record sound good on Your gear but when You go to someone else You hear a lot of things to fix. As a comparison You have Your favorite band record and it does sound either at Your home and Your friends home. This is the most ricky part of mixing. This is also why we have to trust stuff like SPAN to avoid issues that might be caused by our gear or room.

I usually try to make bass guitar flowing around main bass-drum frequency os the both give smooth line in the low end yet still make possible to hear the low bass drum punch without getting it too loud. The problem You have just discovered is one of that trap factors smile.gif You had very narrow freqency range at low end that made You feel it's enough bass in the mix...but...it was probably only on Your speakers



"I need You to post here raw audio mix of bass drum only! and it's span view screen. Also...if You made any EQ on bass drum already post the settings to (print screen would be best)"


I'm confused as to what I need to post here, do I need to put the raw mix of the bass and the kick drum, or just the kickdrum? and the span view of both together? or just the kick drum? Isent you the kickdrums SPAN on the last message

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 28 2013, 12:16 AM

You press the solo option on the bass drum track, make a mixdown and send it to me smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Nov 28 2013, 03:53 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 27 2013, 11:16 PM) *
You press the solo option on the bass drum track, make a mixdown and send it to me smile.gif



ok here's the kickdrum by itself! hopefully it's what you needed lol

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 2 2013, 02:29 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 27 2013, 11:16 PM) *
You press the solo option on the bass drum track, make a mixdown and send it to me smile.gif


sorry to bother you, but did you get the last kick drum thing i sent?

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 2 2013, 04:21 PM

No no...it's good You asked because somehow I missed that post.Currently I'm away from my home studio but I'll respond as soon as I could analyze the track and suggest You cut or boost frequencies smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 4 2013, 05:21 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 2 2013, 03:21 PM) *
No no...it's good You asked because somehow I missed that post.Currently I'm away from my home studio but I'll respond as soon as I could analyze the track and suggest You cut or boost frequencies smile.gif


looking forward to it !

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 4 2013, 09:41 AM

Damn...I've posted a post that was dedicated for You, in Elhombre thread biggrin.gif Gotta copy it here smile.gif


Time to mix the drums (again very simple and not a "must" tips that will help You get started)

There are some very cool toturials. I alwasy did search for some of those and still keep doing - You never know what cool tips can be found there.



What shoulkd You focus at is a example of frequency range and depth = width of those cuts over particular drum set instrument. Of course it works different in each case but usually for metal mixing it would great starting point.


Take a look at how to cut overheads (low pass filter) and how to take of some boxy mid range from bass drum and snare. Watch it carefully at least a few times

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 5 2013, 05:35 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 4 2013, 08:41 AM) *
Damn...I've posted a post that was dedicated for You, in Elhombre thread biggrin.gif Gotta copy it here smile.gif


Time to mix the drums (again very simple and not a "must" tips that will help You get started)

There are some very cool toturials. I alwasy did search for some of those and still keep doing - You never know what cool tips can be found there.



What shoulkd You focus at is a example of frequency range and depth = width of those cuts over particular drum set instrument. Of course it works different in each case but usually for metal mixing it would great starting point.


Take a look at how to cut overheads (low pass filter) and how to take of some boxy mid range from bass drum and snare. Watch it carefully at least a few times


ok man, i've followed the tutorial smile.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 6 2013, 12:00 PM

As You can see there is a lot of middle cut in drums for metal music. You hear the bass drum have lots of low end + exposed attack but it's not about boosting those frequencies - it's about removing others. Basic rule is EQworks better when cuttin than boosting wink.gif

At the very beginning You can start doing wide (high Q) and deep cut with only one eq point. Just mess with it a bit.


IMPORTANT! - some of the vst drums are slightly or highly processed (especially drumkit from hell) this mean some of the job from toturial was already done on the raw samples and You have to be careful to not cut too much smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 7 2013, 11:47 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 6 2013, 11:00 AM) *
As You can see there is a lot of middle cut in drums for metal music. You hear the bass drum have lots of low end + exposed attack but it's not about boosting those frequencies - it's about removing others. Basic rule is EQworks better when cuttin than boosting wink.gif

At the very beginning You can start doing wide (high Q) and deep cut with only one eq point. Just mess with it a bit.


IMPORTANT! - some of the vst drums are slightly or highly processed (especially drumkit from hell) this mean some of the job from toturial was already done on the raw samples and You have to be careful to not cut too much smile.gif


what should I do now?? lol

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 9 2013, 04:58 PM

launch the EQ on the bass drum. We'll remove some unwanted "body" to make place for guitars. Add one correction point somewhere around 400 Hz. experiment with the cut depth even to -16 dB until You find the bass drum having only attack and low end. Send mix some samples from Your experiments

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 10 2013, 02:04 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 9 2013, 03:58 PM) *
launch the EQ on the bass drum. We'll remove some unwanted "body" to make place for guitars. Add one correction point somewhere around 400 Hz. experiment with the cut depth even to -16 dB until You find the bass drum having only attack and low end. Send mix some samples from Your experiments


ok here i'm sending you the kickdrum alone and then a whole mix, i think the kick drum sounds good in my opinion. random question.. how do they mix things like Amon Amarth ?! like to get that HUGEEE sound

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 10 2013, 09:48 AM

Ok. Now take a look at the analyzer. You can see the main low end attack frequency that we were cutting out of bass guitar:




Now here we go with the "different rehearsal gear" issues. Maybe You didn't notice but it visible on a few of my speaker sets. I think that there is not a good proportion between bass drums low punch volume and it's attack.



Let's add some compressor:



As You can see now the low and treble end of bass drum diagram looks more equal. You can try same compressor settings from the one You see on the left. Remember - everything is important - attack and release time, ratio etc. When You put the compressor, You can inscrease bass drum volume in the mix. Of course if YOU'RE NOT USING gain make up option.

Compressor pomps out the bass drum a bit and makes some order with not regular harder hits

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 11 2013, 07:10 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 10 2013, 08:48 AM) *
Ok. Now take a look at the analyzer. You can see the main low end attack frequency that we were cutting out of bass guitar:




Now here we go with the "different rehearsal gear" issues. Maybe You didn't notice but it visible on a few of my speaker sets. I think that there is not a good proportion between bass drums low punch volume and it's attack.



Let's add some compressor:



As You can see now the low and treble end of bass drum diagram looks more equal. You can try same compressor settings from the one You see on the left. Remember - everything is important - attack and release time, ratio etc. When You put the compressor, You can inscrease bass drum volume in the mix. Of course if YOU'RE NOT USING gain make up option.

Compressor pomps out the bass drum a bit and makes some order with not regular harder hits


for some reason, when i use the compressor it loses life it seems like idk. Would it help if i just raised the highs a bit on the kick drum instead??

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 11 2013, 09:59 AM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Dec 11 2013, 07:10 AM) *
for some reason, when i use the compressor it loses life it seems like idk. Would it help if i just raised the highs a bit on the kick drum instead??



The idea is...when You want more highs it works better when You cut a bit low, and increase overall volume of the track so the low end level in the mix will be the same but the highs will come out. Cuting is always better than boosting. It will give the same effect for the ears.


I'm afraid Your bass drum is too boomy on my speakers. Please retry to add compresion, send me bass drum mix withcompressor on, and a screen of compressor settings

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 12 2013, 01:32 AM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Dec 11 2013, 06:10 AM) *
for some reason, when i use the compressor it loses life it seems like idk. Would it help if i just raised the highs a bit on the kick drum instead??



ok I did it! you were right, it balanced it more, I did the span thing too and it looked like yours where the high and lows were even.

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 12 2013, 09:37 AM

Great You didn't stop to experiment - Yes...very often we need to trust things like SPAN...especially with the low end. I'm glad You decided to try again. Remember while using compression You are always able to increase whole track volume if You feel it bacame to quiet.

Looks ok. Now I would like to get a sampel of mix with new kick drum. Nex thing We're gonna go to are cymbals

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 12 2013, 06:06 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 12 2013, 08:37 AM) *
Great You didn't stop to experiment - Yes...very often we need to trust things like SPAN...especially with the low end. I'm glad You decided to try again. Remember while using compression You are always able to increase whole track volume if You feel it bacame to quiet.

Looks ok. Now I would like to get a sampel of mix with new kick drum. Nex thing We're gonna go to are cymbals


here is the little sample lol, do you know if we're going to work on guitars by any chance??

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 17 2013, 03:54 PM

Of course we will! But before this You have to trust me - very often the feel You have about good guitar tone is sort of illusion created by good mix with other instruments. Before getting the section - drums and bass done...it's pointless to mess with guitars. I'm trying to give some knowledge I got through many years of mixing and You want it all, You want it now (like Queen sings biggrin.gif ) Be patient - it will help You way more in future mixing wink.gif

First of all let's make some order with cymbals. They are way to hidden so it feels like it's a keaboard drums rather than live drums. Boost those a bit now and add a High Pass Filter (HPF) usually DAW eq has this mode in the track options (EQ). Start from cutting everything above 1kHz (of course the cut will be smooth so it's not like taking away absolutely)

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 17 2013, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 17 2013, 02:54 PM) *
Of course we will! But before this You have to trust me - very often the feel You have about good guitar tone is sort of illusion created by good mix with other instruments. Before getting the section - drums and bass done...it's pointless to mess with guitars. I'm trying to give some knowledge I got through many years of mixing and You want it all, You want it now (like Queen sings biggrin.gif ) Be patient - it will help You way more in future mixing wink.gif

First of all let's make some order with cymbals. They are way to hidden so it feels like it's a keaboard drums rather than live drums. Boost those a bit now and add a High Pass Filter (HPF) usually DAW eq has this mode in the track options (EQ). Start from cutting everything above 1kHz (of course the cut will be smooth so it's not like taking away absolutely)


ok cool, i understand.
i did the cut and here's what it sounds like

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 18 2013, 02:46 PM

I think it's better now.

Ok...we know that there is no place for hard rules in mixing but to give You sort of guide let's just say veeeeery often great cutting point for guitars is around 400-500 Hz

example -

Experiment with this kind of cut. You will hear how guitars become heavier. You will also expirience that You will have to cut more mids from the drums. When we listen to professinal productions of this kind of genre, they are usually dried out of mids. Now...find Yourself a reference soung the mix You like and try to roll the eq to get close to the guitars. You will feel Your guitars sound fat comparing to those recordings. Waiting for next sample.


My example:

I've compared and try to fit Your mix to popular productions. I;ve added this sort of EQ (quick test - don't consider it professional)
:



 elno_full_mix_sample.wav ( 4.61MB ) : 117


So it's an image of how many mids are still able to be cut. While doing the cuts on each track remember You can add some volume.
We do the cut's to make instruments fit to each other. Sometimes some corrections come out once we fix other instrument eq.

When You cut the guitars You might feel that drums are too fat comparing to guitars. You can add more dB of mids cut to the drums as well.

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 18 2013, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 18 2013, 01:46 PM) *
I think it's better now.

Ok...we know that there is no place for hard rules in mixing but to give You sort of guide let's just say veeeeery often great cutting point for guitars is around 400-500 Hz

example -

Experiment with this kind of cut. You will hear how guitars become heavier. You will also expirience that You will have to cut more mids from the drums. When we listen to professinal productions of this kind of genre, they are usually dried out of mids. Now...find Yourself a reference soung the mix You like and try to roll the eq to get close to the guitars. You will feel Your guitars sound fat comparing to those recordings. Waiting for next sample.


My example:

I've compared and try to fit Your mix to popular productions. I;ve added this sort of EQ (quick test - don't consider it professional)
:



 elno_full_mix_sample.wav ( 4.61MB ) : 117


So it's an image of how many mids are still able to be cut. While doing the cuts on each track remember You can add some volume.
We do the cut's to make instruments fit to each other. Sometimes some corrections come out once we fix other instrument eq.

When You cut the guitars You might feel that drums are too fat comparing to guitars. You can add more dB of mids cut to the drums as well.


damn! smile.gif i like the way it soundsss i wish I could do the same lol. What was it that you cut mids from again? just the guitar? like did you cut the mids off the drums too?? or all that change was from that cut you have a picture of??

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 18 2013, 06:30 PM

Here's what I did so far, I cut the guitars! so it does seem to help a lot man! smile.gif as for lead guitars is there mixing for that as well?? i'm seeing progress for sure smile.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 18 2013, 07:29 PM

Second screen is an eq for all mix not just guitars. You can get similar effects by cutting slme mids k all instruments.

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 18 2013, 10:54 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 18 2013, 06:29 PM) *
Second screen is an eq for all mix not just guitars. You can get similar effects by cutting slme mids k all instruments.


ok cool, I sent you an audio file on the last reply smile.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 19 2013, 03:49 PM

Now we're getting to the point where details can change everything. Before crushing drums eq let's see some volume tweaks. Now after guitars eq the drums are too loud. Increase the guitars volume (the tone of rhythm guitars is veery good, were fix the leas soon). Add + 2 dB to each guitar panned track - L R and 3 dB to lead guitar volume. Show me the mix

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 19 2013, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 19 2013, 02:49 PM) *
Now we're getting to the point where details can change everything. Before crushing drums eq let's see some volume tweaks. Now after guitars eq the drums are too loud. Increase the guitars volume (the tone of rhythm guitars is veery good, were fix the leas soon). Add + 2 dB to each guitar panned track - L R and 3 dB to lead guitar volume. Show me the mix


ok man, I just did that,and here's the mix!

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 19 2013, 08:36 PM

Ok. Now I hear You can make sort of 1dB more in guitars cut (that cut around 500Hz You already did) just cut one more db. Leave thoe volume. The guitars get muddy with the bass. We need to cut off some low end from guitar. Try to turn on the High Pass Filter and move it the the point of 200 Hz (add it for both L and R guitar )

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 20 2013, 05:52 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 19 2013, 07:36 PM) *
Ok. Now I hear You can make sort of 1dB more in guitars cut (that cut around 500Hz You already did) just cut one more db. Leave thoe volume. The guitars get muddy with the bass. We need to cut off some low end from guitar. Try to turn on the High Pass Filter and move it the the point of 200 Hz (add it for both L and R guitar )



ok man, I did what what you said smile.gif here's the sample

Posted by: Darius Wave Dec 24 2013, 10:21 AM

Please repost the sample - somehow the link doesn't display in the post smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 24 2013, 06:29 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 24 2013, 09:21 AM) *
Please repost the sample - somehow the link doesn't display in the post smile.gif


ooops lol I was waiting for your reply tongue.gif I thought it was attached haha here's the sample I uploaded it to soundcloud because it kept on saying too large to upload lol
https://soundcloud.com/enlo22/sample

Posted by: enlo22 Dec 30 2013, 08:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KKYJD09qCk i like the tone of this!

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 1 2014, 07:12 PM

As You probably noticed is veeery scooped out of mids. You can set this as a reference while while cutting out the mids in Your mix. Sometimes it's done at the mastering stage...so even if You leave too much mids at mixing stage, You can always correct it on the mastering stage. Comparing Your mix to this I can already say You could cut more bass and mids from the guitar. If You still have this 500 Hz eq on each guitar track (rhythm guitars) try to add some extra few dB (2-3) to each track and show me how this sounds.

As for the mentioned bass cut...I would do it with High Pass filter. At the moment Your guitar are too boomy comparing to rest of the mix

Posted by: enlo22 Jan 2 2014, 06:55 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jan 1 2014, 06:12 PM) *
As You probably noticed is veeery scooped out of mids. You can set this as a reference while while cutting out the mids in Your mix. Sometimes it's done at the mastering stage...so even if You leave too much mids at mixing stage, You can always correct it on the mastering stage. Comparing Your mix to this I can already say You could cut more bass and mids from the guitar. If You still have this 500 Hz eq on each guitar track (rhythm guitars) try to add some extra few dB (2-3) to each track and show me how this sounds.

As for the mentioned bass cut...I would do it with High Pass filter. At the moment Your guitar are too boomy comparing to rest of the mix



ok man cool tongue.gif here's what i got

https://soundcloud.com/enlo22/sample

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 2 2014, 11:05 AM

Ok it's better but still need to work on that. Can You post a screen of all the EQ setup for guitars?

Posted by: enlo22 Jan 2 2014, 06:31 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jan 2 2014, 10:05 AM) *
Ok it's better but still need to work on that. Can You post a screen of all the EQ setup for guitars?


here's my eq, it's on both guitars

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 2 2014, 10:13 PM

I can't see other eq values (only the high pass of 1 point) What is exact value of 500 Hz cut? And...
at 2:28 of our reference recording You have a perfect moment to fit the guitar tone.


Important. Once we got the sketch there is a "war of details". It sounds much simple than it is in real but... Now let's search for the balance by messing between tracks volume and eq values.

Example: If You cut one more dB on the 500Hz EQ then increase the track volume (You can try similar value).

At the moment I would give back 1db from the 500 Hz cut and decrease each track volume with 1 dB.


That's how we find the balance. There are different techniques. This is just one of them.

Basic idea is...If You feel there is not enough treble in guitar tone....You can make whole guitar track louder until You hear the treble in the mix AND...cut a few dB's of the other frequencies - lows and mids.

Another idea -
Guitar seems to sound quite good but only little details are annoying...like some high mids in Your case. Try to experiment with midrange cut point (for example try to move it between 400 and 600 Hz, or try to set very tiny value change to Q parameter of this cut.

In Your case moving the mids cut could be a cool solution too.

Also.

1. Please send me both guitars raw track (no fx no ex) it can be a stereo mixdown of both)
2. Send me another mix after Your experiments with guitars.

Posted by: enlo22 Jan 21 2014, 04:37 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jan 2 2014, 09:13 PM) *
I can't see other eq values (only the high pass of 1 point) What is exact value of 500 Hz cut? And...
at 2:28 of our reference recording You have a perfect moment to fit the guitar tone.


Important. Once we got the sketch there is a "war of details". It sounds much simple than it is in real but... Now let's search for the balance by messing between tracks volume and eq values.

Example: If You cut one more dB on the 500Hz EQ then increase the track volume (You can try similar value).

At the moment I would give back 1db from the 500 Hz cut and decrease each track volume with 1 dB.


That's how we find the balance. There are different techniques. This is just one of them.

Basic idea is...If You feel there is not enough treble in guitar tone....You can make whole guitar track louder until You hear the treble in the mix AND...cut a few dB's of the other frequencies - lows and mids.

Another idea -
Guitar seems to sound quite good but only little details are annoying...like some high mids in Your case. Try to experiment with midrange cut point (for example try to move it between 400 and 600 Hz, or try to set very tiny value change to Q parameter of this cut.

In Your case moving the mids cut could be a cool solution too.

Also.

1. Please send me both guitars raw track (no fx no ex) it can be a stereo mixdown of both)
2. Send me another mix after Your experiments with guitars.


here is the print screen for the eq. and i'm uploading the tracks to sound cloud because it says not enough space

https://soundcloud.com/enlo22 the first 3 are the ones that you needed smile.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 23 2014, 02:32 PM

could You try to move low pass filter a bit lower? I think we could cut a bit more from 5-6k Hz

Posted by: enlo22 Jan 31 2014, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jan 23 2014, 01:32 PM) *
could You try to move low pass filter a bit lower? I think we could cut a bit more from 5-6k Hz


ok I did the Low pass filter thing tongue.gif and here's my mix, for some reason it never lets me upload it here anymore it says it's too large of a file, even though it's a short clip :/

https://soundcloud.com/enlo22/test-1

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 31 2014, 09:31 PM

How do You feel about decreasing the guitar volume? I think we could add some bass volume as well.

Posted by: enlo22 Feb 2 2014, 02:07 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jan 31 2014, 08:31 PM) *
How do You feel about decreasing the guitar volume? I think we could add some bass volume as well.



https://soundcloud.com/enlo22/test-2

here's the new track

Posted by: jstcrsn Feb 2 2014, 11:48 AM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Jan 31 2014, 08:29 PM) *
ok I did the Low pass filter thing tongue.gif and here's my mix, for some reason it never lets me upload it here anymore it says it's too large of a file, even though it's a short clip :/

https://soundcloud.com/enlo22/test-1

thats because you have uploaded your limit, if you go into your controls you can delete old stuff , but it will delete it thru out GMC

this is soundin pretty rockin

Posted by: Darius Wave Feb 2 2014, 11:56 AM

Thanx for additional info jsctrn.

Elno - can I have a longer part of the song? I would like to hear some more cymbals. We need to add some air to the drums.
Snare is a very loud instrument and it usually affects the room reflections very much while through the mic You don't get that as much so...we usually add a bit different settings for snare reverb.

I need You to create 3 fx channels with the same reverb. We will add different settings for
1. Bass drum - low cut off and very short decay/time to not muddy the mix but keep a feeling of drum bass being played in the rom as well.
2. Overheads - short time, hig cut and huge low cut. Also short time to avoid mess in the mix
3. Snare - Full reverb - maybe with a bit higher predelay value and a little high cut but this one we will leave pretty natural. Make shure all reverbs has the same "room size".

Posted by: enlo22 Feb 3 2014, 06:33 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Feb 2 2014, 10:56 AM) *
Thanx for additional info jsctrn.

Elno - can I have a longer part of the song? I would like to hear some more cymbals. We need to add some air to the drums.
Snare is a very loud instrument and it usually affects the room reflections very much while through the mic You don't get that as much so...we usually add a bit different settings for snare reverb.

I need You to create 3 fx channels with the same reverb. We will add different settings for
1. Bass drum - low cut off and very short decay/time to not muddy the mix but keep a feeling of drum bass being played in the rom as well.
2. Overheads - short time, hig cut and huge low cut. Also short time to avoid mess in the mix
3. Snare - Full reverb - maybe with a bit higher predelay value and a little high cut but this one we will leave pretty natural. Make shure all reverbs has the same "room size".



here's a longer part!

 test.wav ( 4.54MB ) : 103
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Feb 6 2014, 11:42 AM

it's still too short...is this everything for this composition You have by the moment? smile.gif I'masking because I need different dynamics in drums, different cymbals to make sure about a few details smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Feb 10 2014, 05:49 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Feb 6 2014, 10:42 AM) *
it's still too short...is this everything for this composition You have by the moment? smile.gif I'masking because I need different dynamics in drums, different cymbals to make sure about a few details smile.gif


here is a longer part! i tried to get more drums in there

 test.wav ( 10.38MB ) : 129
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Feb 10 2014, 07:45 PM

Ok. I think we need to give some more body to the drums I need You to send me screens of bass drums eq and snare drum eq. You can also send me the raw tracks of snare and bass drum so I could suggest some eq-ing

Posted by: enlo22 Feb 11 2014, 12:03 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Feb 10 2014, 06:45 PM) *
Ok. I think we need to give some more body to the drums I need You to send me screens of bass drums eq and snare drum eq. You can also send me the raw tracks of snare and bass drum so I could suggest some eq-ing



there are the 3 files smile.gif hopefully you can help me out more!

 

 test.wav ( 2.6MB ) : 91
 

Posted by: enlo22 Feb 18 2014, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Feb 10 2014, 11:03 PM) *
there are the 3 files smile.gif hopefully you can help me out more!


hey darius did you get my reply??

Posted by: Darius Wave Feb 19 2014, 10:58 AM

Thanx for update Elno! Somehow I missed Your previous response. I'll check those files in the evening in my home studio and we'll push the work further

Posted by: Darius Wave Feb 19 2014, 07:07 PM

Unfortunately it's easy to abuse the EQ - it happened in both - snare and the bass drum.


1. Bass drum - way to much high frequencies You took a very wide range of EQ and boost it a lot. If we place to much bass drum and snare attack in the overhead frequency range then it will still be not clear enough in the mix. Best way is to look at the SPAN for frequencies that are already there smile.gif For example there migh be some quiet (low level) peaks in the 7-8 kHz. You can try to bost that range a bit


Snare is very thin but we will leave it until we fix the bass drum.

In Metal bass drum and snare drums has a lot of treble indeed but...it's bosted as much as You did (at least not above 10 kHz)

We have 2 options:
1. Turn off that huge, wide bost of treble and find a sweet spot according to raw drum bass track frequency diagram
2. Add low pass filter to the eq settings we already have. I made some tests. I used Your track and added LPF at around 10 kHz) and it does the job but...it's shape has a lot to do with it. Different curve will need slightly different point of cut.

Good news: We have pretty good order in the lows + clearance in the midddle. I would not touch mid and low eq settings anymore for now. I would focus on getting good bass drum attack without killing us with that huge amount of very high frequencies

Posted by: enlo22 Feb 19 2014, 08:37 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Feb 19 2014, 06:07 PM) *
Unfortunately it's easy to abuse the EQ - it happened in both - snare and the bass drum.


1. Bass drum - way to much high frequencies You took a very wide range of EQ and boost it a lot. If we place to much bass drum and snare attack in the overhead frequency range then it will still be not clear enough in the mix. Best way is to look at the SPAN for frequencies that are already there smile.gif For example there migh be some quiet (low level) peaks in the 7-8 kHz. You can try to bost that range a bit


Snare is very thin but we will leave it until we fix the bass drum.

In Metal bass drum and snare drums has a lot of treble indeed but...it's bosted as much as You did (at least not above 10 kHz)

We have 2 options:
1. Turn off that huge, wide bost of treble and find a sweet spot according to raw drum bass track frequency diagram
2. Add low pass filter to the eq settings we already have. I made some tests. I used Your track and added LPF at around 10 kHz) and it does the job but...it's shape has a lot to do with it. Different curve will need slightly different point of cut.

Good news: We have pretty good order in the lows + clearance in the midddle. I would not touch mid and low eq settings anymore for now. I would focus on getting good bass drum attack without killing us with that huge amount of very high frequencies


ok I did the LPF at 10k and it does sound better, I still don't know how to read the span very well, like I don't know what adjustments i have to make based on what it shows me.
For example, I wouldn't have done anything with the bass drum treble unless you said something about it, I don't know how to realize those changes on my own.

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Feb 19 2014, 07:33 PM) *
ok I did the LPF at 10k and it does sound better, I still don't know how to read the span very well, like I don't know what adjustments i have to make based on what it shows me.
For example, I wouldn't have done anything with the bass drum treble unless you said something about it, I don't know how to realize those changes on my own.



 test.wav ( 4.54MB ) : 109
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 4 2014, 12:20 AM

The more You spend time on mixing and the more attention You put to the details, You start to hear those with time. It's not something You will get "just like that". For example. Maybe You would not notice that high end problem in bass drum now , but You will already have a clue while doing any further mixes and You will not ask me again because You will have sort of sketch of how the bass drum could sound for Your music smile.gif Problem of listening to whole mixes is the ilussion - just like with guitars. You hear lot's of lows in the guitars while listening to the mix but this illusion is created buy good match of guit, bass and bass drum smile.gif

Using analyzer is a lesson itself. This knowledge will come with time. It's rather the method "I hear something is too much, so i search for precise frequency range". We are not able to make perfect mix just by watching the analyzer - it's not a substitute. It only helps to search for the precise frequencies smile.gif

Mixing always work both ways:
If You miss something in tone of instrument 1 You can boost it BUT ...usually at first it's more efficeint to see if cutting the same range in instrument 2 will make a space for it. Just like we did with the bass drum and bass. We where not trying to make endless bass drum boost - we found it's sweet spot and took it off from the bass guitar smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 5 2014, 02:46 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 3 2014, 11:20 PM) *
The more You spend time on mixing and the more attention You put to the details, You start to hear those with time. It's not something You will get "just like that". For example. Maybe You would not notice that high end problem in bass drum now , but You will already have a clue while doing any further mixes and You will not ask me again because You will have sort of sketch of how the bass drum could sound for Your music smile.gif Problem of listening to whole mixes is the ilussion - just like with guitars. You hear lot's of lows in the guitars while listening to the mix but this illusion is created buy good match of guit, bass and bass drum smile.gif

Using analyzer is a lesson itself. This knowledge will come with time. It's rather the method "I hear something is too much, so i search for precise frequency range". We are not able to make perfect mix just by watching the analyzer - it's not a substitute. It only helps to search for the precise frequencies smile.gif

Mixing always work both ways:
If You miss something in tone of instrument 1 You can boost it BUT ...usually at first it's more efficeint to see if cutting the same range in instrument 2 will make a space for it. Just like we did with the bass drum and bass. We where not trying to make endless bass drum boost - we found it's sweet spot and took it off from the bass guitar smile.gif



ahh makes more sense, i'm glad that the mixing is making more sense. do you have anymore advise as for tweaking this one more?

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 5 2014, 12:01 PM

OIf course...there is still a lot of those biggrin.gif Let's talk about the gain stages mentioned by tonymiro.

Gainstage as a term is nothing more then the gain level / levels. The basic idea is

WE DON';T WANT TO HAVE ANY SINGLE CLIP EITHER ON EVERY SINGLE TRACK OR THE WHOLE MIX.

Most of mixing guys work on very low volumes of the tracks to be sure that whole mix will not have any clipping. In my case I usually start at -12 to -15 dB volume setting on every track. While mixing You will here Your daw session is very quiet comparing to the mastered music You listen to.

Even if You took the time to avoid clipping while recording (no single clip at input) the it's still easy to make whole mix clipping and
in case of digital clip is like a "no information, no data at the moment" it was a bit different with analog tapes etc".

How does Your volume and gain (input levels) look in the session?

BTW...compressor cut the signal but will never remove the clipping if it has been ecorded with clipping.

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 9 2014, 04:22 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 5 2014, 11:01 AM) *
OIf course...there is still a lot of those biggrin.gif Let's talk about the gain stages mentioned by tonymiro.

Gainstage as a term is nothing more then the gain level / levels. The basic idea is

WE DON';T WANT TO HAVE ANY SINGLE CLIP EITHER ON EVERY SINGLE TRACK OR THE WHOLE MIX.

Most of mixing guys work on very low volumes of the tracks to be sure that whole mix will not have any clipping. In my case I usually start at -12 to -15 dB volume setting on every track. While mixing You will here Your daw session is very quiet comparing to the mastered music You listen to.

Even if You took the time to avoid clipping while recording (no single clip at input) the it's still easy to make whole mix clipping and
in case of digital clip is like a "no information, no data at the moment" it was a bit different with analog tapes etc".

How does Your volume and gain (input levels) look in the session?

BTW...compressor cut the signal but will never remove the clipping if it has been ecorded with clipping.


ok, I understand. I'm sure none of the signals clipped when I recorded them. I took a photo of the screen to see if you can see if something is wrong?



 

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 9 2014, 03:55 PM

I think that a few track of -6 dB volume played together can cause clipping on the master bus. Rolling down master volume does not always solve the problem. 13-16 dB is usually a safe spot. Does the volume meter show record input level or the volume level after adjusting the fader?

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 9 2014, 06:22 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 9 2014, 02:55 PM) *
I think that a few track of -6 dB volume played together can cause clipping on the master bus. Rolling down master volume does not always solve the problem. 13-16 dB is usually a safe spot. Does the volume meter show record input level or the volume level after adjusting the fader?



so am i supposed to adjust the output level of the plug ins such as guitar rig and superior drummer? or the volumes of the tracks? it shows the volume after adjusting the fader. should my master track be at 13-16 or should my individual tracks be at that level?

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 11 2014, 04:18 PM

1. Yes - You can adjust the levels with both - plug-ins out and it's track fader
2. Yes - 13 db is a good level of full mix BEFORE master. Your mix file should be way quite comparing to the records You usually listen too (band's cd etc)

Why it's so important?

Instruments like snare drum can have a constant - 13 dB output level BUT just a single hit on snare can have clipping in very narrow range. Like 1kHz huge click while playing rimshot. And sometimes You check every track alone BUT when play together when at some point they have a boost in similar freq range they can cause clipping as well. Digital clip is like a hole in the book's page. You'll never know what has been written there because after 0 dB thee is no data space for audio. Tough to explain but this is how it works.

Because we work in the digital field there will be NO ADDITIONAL NOISE if You normalize the mix that has been done with low volume level. This can be easy fixed BUT...if there is a clipping - You can only "cheat" with compression, limiters etc so You won't see the red light. But it doesn't change the fact that those clipping points are destroying the mix...

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 11 2014, 08:55 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 11 2014, 03:18 PM) *
1. Yes - You can adjust the levels with both - plug-ins out and it's track fader
2. Yes - 13 db is a good level of full mix BEFORE master. Your mix file should be way quite comparing to the records You usually listen too (band's cd etc)

Why it's so important?

Instruments like snare drum can have a constant - 13 dB output level BUT just a single hit on snare can have clipping in very narrow range. Like 1kHz huge click while playing rimshot. And sometimes You check every track alone BUT when play together when at some point they have a boost in similar freq range they can cause clipping as well. Digital clip is like a hole in the book's page. You'll never know what has been written there because after 0 dB thee is no data space for audio. Tough to explain but this is how it works.

Because we work in the digital field there will be NO ADDITIONAL NOISE if You normalize the mix that has been done with low volume level. This can be easy fixed BUT...if there is a clipping - You can only "cheat" with compression, limiters etc so You won't see the red light. But it doesn't change the fact that those clipping points are destroying the mix...



ohh ok I understand now more. I don't seem to have any clipping. I can lower the track volumes?

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 12 2014, 02:33 PM

Yes. Doing this "just in case" will keep You safe from some issues You might not understand in 100% now, but You'll see through time passing smile.gif You use Drumkit from hell am I right?

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 13 2014, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 12 2014, 01:33 PM) *
Yes. Doing this "just in case" will keep You safe from some issues You might not understand in 100% now, but You'll see through time passing smile.gif You use Drumkit from hell am I right?


yeah i'm using superior drummer with dfh

btw I found this recording and i love the tone of this, it sounds monstrous! https://soundcloud.com/fda-rekotz/lifeless-god-construct

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 18 2014, 09:50 AM

To be honest DFH is not a descent set. It was more metal than EZD but a bit too compressed and over-eq'ed. Never like it though. If You have Superrior there is one (probably not only) but perfect for metal pack is called "metal foundaries". There is one awesome kick that is bright but have no "plastic like" click. Of course it sound very natural and need some eq (like normal drums do) but You can get heavy, yet very natural tone of those. Are You able to use Superioir with "Metal Foundaries"?

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 21 2014, 03:57 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 18 2014, 08:50 AM) *
To be honest DFH is not a descent set. It was more metal than EZD but a bit too compressed and over-eq'ed. Never like it though. If You have Superrior there is one (probably not only) but perfect for metal pack is called "metal foundaries". There is one awesome kick that is bright but have no "plastic like" click. Of course it sound very natural and need some eq (like normal drums do) but You can get heavy, yet very natural tone of those. Are You able to use Superioir with "Metal Foundaries"?


hey man, Yeah I'll use the Metal Foundry , I'll have to learn how to use it!

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 22 2014, 01:49 PM

You know there is also very cool and way cheaper alternative called SSD4 Platinum. I'm ordering one to myself. Looks like it takes less ram, is much simplier in exploration + has much more tone in the pack. There is a promotion right now and it costs nothing to be honest comparing to the drum tones they give. My friend had made his demo in one of Polish studios. Engeneer used Steven Slate drums in that recording. They are perfect for modern metal tones. Check this out. I don't know how about You but I'm 100% I will purchase it next week smile.gif




http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/store/

Posted by: jstcrsn Mar 22 2014, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 22 2014, 01:49 PM) *
You know there is also very cool and way cheaper alternative called SSD4 Platinum. I'm ordering one to myself. Looks like it takes less ram, is much simplier in exploration + has much more tone in the pack. There is a promotion right now and it costs nothing to be honest comparing to the drum tones they give. My friend had made his demo in one of Polish studios. Engeneer used Steven Slate drums in that recording. They are perfect for modern metal tones. Check this out. I don't know how about You but I'm 100% I will purchase it next week smile.gif




http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/store/

this looks freakin killer, now on my list
still trying to get things going on my thread , just been to busy

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Mar 21 2014, 03:57 PM) *
hey man, Yeah I'll use the Metal Foundry , I'll have to learn how to use it!

your stuff is sounding good, both mixing and skill level
and the new Pic. -Freakin Metal

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 22 2014, 06:45 PM

Ok J waiting for Your reply in Your thread then smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 22 2014, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 22 2014, 12:49 PM) *
You know there is also very cool and way cheaper alternative called SSD4 Platinum. I'm ordering one to myself. Looks like it takes less ram, is much simplier in exploration + has much more tone in the pack. There is a promotion right now and it costs nothing to be honest comparing to the drum tones they give. My friend had made his demo in one of Polish studios. Engeneer used Steven Slate drums in that recording. They are perfect for modern metal tones. Check this out. I don't know how about You but I'm 100% I will purchase it next week smile.gif




http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/store/


sounds good man! I just got the Metal Foundry though tongue.gif!

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 24 2014, 04:05 AM

QUOTE (enlo22 @ Mar 22 2014, 06:50 PM) *
sounds good man! I just got the Metal Foundry though tongue.gif!



here's something new i've been working on, trying a few new things i've read etc..
https://soundcloud.com/enlo22/riff-idea-mp3

some of the playing is still a bit sloppy cause it's still a test lol
as always your critique is welcomed and appreciated smile.gif

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 24 2014, 11:41 AM

Metal Foundary is a great pack though! smile.gif

I will refer to what I told You at the beginning. There are several ways to get what You expect and a tons of tips to make the mix work. Unfortunately nothing guarantee anything at 100%. So let's try to get Your new setup. Let's start from the bass drum. Show me the tone of You bass drum alone and all the settings You already did smile.gif

Two very conclusions are:


1. A bit too bright rhythm guitars - taking some space of snare presence and kick attack
2. Nice solo tone and it's fit to the mix! smile.gif
3. Hidden drums - You got the guitars on the first plan but via huge drums volume loss instead of the frequency order to match spectrums of each instrument

But...not too much at one time. We don't wan't to get confused.

Let's get the bass drum done. Do You remember some very basic rules from the very first posts in Your thread ?

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 24 2014, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 24 2014, 10:41 AM) *
Metal Foundary is a great pack though! smile.gif

I will refer to what I told You at the beginning. There are several ways to get what You expect and a tons of tips to make the mix work. Unfortunately nothing guarantee anything at 100%. So let's try to get Your new setup. Let's start from the bass drum. Show me the tone of You bass drum alone and all the settings You already did smile.gif

Two very conclusions are:


1. A bit too bright rhythm guitars - taking some space of snare presence and kick attack
2. Nice solo tone and it's fit to the mix! smile.gif
3. Hidden drums - You got the guitars on the first plan but via huge drums volume loss instead of the frequency order to match spectrums of each instrument

But...not too much at one time. We don't wan't to get confused.

Let's get the bass drum done. Do You remember some very basic rules from the very first posts in Your thread ?



I'm not sure on how to make the guitars less brighter tongue.gif
the solo tone I got from podfarm haha
as for the hidden drums problem, is it a volume problem?
i've attached the raw kick drum and the one with the eq's

i still remeber what we've talked about, i tried to apply it here based on some of the new things i read, I did the balancing the bass guitar and the kick drum trick you showed me by using span! smile.gif

 kick_drum_raw.mp3 ( 145.15K ) : 79
 kick_drum_eq.mp3 ( 143.65K ) : 74
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 26 2014, 11:29 AM

Yes - it's always a volume issue tongue.gif BUT the question is - is a volume of the track or volume of specyfic frequency range tongue.gif


Usually it's better to check the track volume at first. It's easy to abuse eq and get to the point where You have too much of it used and still not getting the sound You need.

1. I think You're doing nice job with the bass drum so far smile.gif
2. I would make sure about the sample choice. Do You hear that little "plastic" attack cutting through the mix?

Maybe try with different sample od bass drum or just change the felt beater. Let me know the results so we could go further

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 26 2014, 03:39 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 26 2014, 10:29 AM) *
Yes - it's always a volume issue tongue.gif BUT the question is - is a volume of the track or volume of specyfic frequency range tongue.gif


Usually it's better to check the track volume at first. It's easy to abuse eq and get to the point where You have too much of it used and still not getting the sound You need.

1. I think You're doing nice job with the bass drum so far smile.gif
2. I would make sure about the sample choice. Do You hear that little "plastic" attack cutting through the mix?

Maybe try with different sample od bass drum or just change the felt beater. Let me know the results so we could go further



I changed some of the drums/ cymbals too , I used ez mixer for a test just on the master chain and worked on the volumes and on the eq's without abuse lol thing in the last 2 days so here's what i've got so far

 test.mp3 ( 1.38MB ) : 81
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 26 2014, 04:38 PM

I'll recheck at home. I think one of the bass drums in MEtal Foundary is outstanding in case of presence it's not "plastic". Over all mix has more energy now. We will still kep working on bass drum and snare because those are essentials smile.gif Will rechek on my monitors at home and lt You know smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 26 2014, 05:03 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 26 2014, 03:38 PM) *
I'll recheck at home. I think one of the bass drums in MEtal Foundary is outstanding in case of presence it's not "plastic". Over all mix has more energy now. We will still kep working on bass drum and snare because those are essentials smile.gif Will rechek on my monitors at home and lt You know smile.gif


awesome man, looking forward to it lol I should probably buy monitors sometime.. but my interface does'nt support them lol

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 26 2014, 09:48 PM

I've rechecked things and seems like my favourite is 18x22" Tomas Haake kick

Now my EQ for it will look pretty scary but seems like it works for me. I made it to keep the balance between plastic, high middle attack and the presence needed in heavy playing


here is a sample of my drums tone (not a metal arrange but the sounds were matched for heavy playing)



 drums_sample.wav ( 1.73MB ) : 110






Posted by: enlo22 Mar 27 2014, 11:43 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 26 2014, 08:48 PM) *
I've rechecked things and seems like my favourite is 18x22" Tomas Haake kick

Now my EQ for it will look pretty scary but seems like it works for me. I made it to keep the balance between plastic, high middle attack and the presence needed in heavy playing


here is a sample of my drums tone (not a metal arrange but the sounds were matched for heavy playing)



 drums_sample.wav ( 1.73MB ) : 110


I'm using the Tomas Haake designer series 1 I put the eq like yours
i attached a sample of it on here, i'm using a compressor after it too

 test_.mp3 ( 127.21K ) : 78
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Mar 28 2014, 10:02 AM

Now a short explanation

between 100 and 200 Hz there is sort of "boomy" bass range that creates unpleasant bass drum attack on speakers with subbass (that's my humble opinion of course) I like to keep foot very low 62 Hz (3 point of EQ) is just compensation for the wide cut made by eq 2. This frequency will change due to different bass drum sample and it tune. Make sure where Your bass drum sample has a low attack (peak). I might be a difference of a few Hz up to 10 Hz. The idea is we boost (in this case just keep the level to it's natual position) the frequencies THAT ARE ALREADY THERE in the sample. We don't boost something that is "empty" or just a vey quiet harmonic. Make sure that eq 3 showed on my diagram is pointed correctly depending on the root frequency of Youre ass drum sample.

This huge cut made by eq 2 creates a lot of space for tom root notes Usually 100-250 Hz and guitars.

Now to keet "the fair play" - when we cut something in the bass drum track to make place for bass, guitars, and other mid-focused instruments, we have to make sure that we do not cover the rest of frequency range. In other words if bass drum has only treble to break through the mix, make sure other instrument will not be overloaded with treble. This will make bass drum clear in the mix and not affecting other instruments. But as mentioned ...the rule of respect work both directions.

Try to show me this new bass drum tone in a full mix.


Once we get done with the snare, we should go to the "stage in the mix" workshop" Reverb choice and setting is essential as well.

Posted by: enlo22 Mar 28 2014, 04:43 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Mar 28 2014, 09:02 AM) *
Now a short explanation

between 100 and 200 Hz there is sort of "boomy" bass range that creates unpleasant bass drum attack on speakers with subbass (that's my humble opinion of course) I like to keep foot very low 62 Hz (3 point of EQ) is just compensation for the wide cut made by eq 2. This frequency will change due to different bass drum sample and it tune. Make sure where Your bass drum sample has a low attack (peak). I might be a difference of a few Hz up to 10 Hz. The idea is we boost (in this case just keep the level to it's natual position) the frequencies THAT ARE ALREADY THERE in the sample. We don't boost something that is "empty" or just a vey quiet harmonic. Make sure that eq 3 showed on my diagram is pointed correctly depending on the root frequency of Youre ass drum sample.

This huge cut made by eq 2 creates a lot of space for tom root notes Usually 100-250 Hz and guitars.

Now to keet "the fair play" - when we cut something in the bass drum track to make place for bass, guitars, and other mid-focused instruments, we have to make sure that we do not cover the rest of frequency range. In other words if bass drum has only treble to break through the mix, make sure other instrument will not be overloaded with treble. This will make bass drum clear in the mix and not affecting other instruments. But as mentioned ...the rule of respect work both directions.

Try to show me this new bass drum tone in a full mix.


Once we get done with the snare, we should go to the "stage in the mix" workshop" Reverb choice and setting is essential as well.


here's the full mix,
and what do you mean by "Root frequency"?



 test_.mp3 ( 319.11K ) : 81
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 1 2014, 10:22 AM

Every note has it's main frequency (root) for example A (2nd fret, G string) has 440 Hz. Open A string has 220 Hz. When You guitar play in a key of A You will most likely see a lot of boost in the range between 200-250 Hz

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 1 2014, 01:49 PM

Let's take a look at snare and it's reverb. Snare is very special care demanding instrument. Reverbs usually do half of those snare tone.

Please post me Your current snare setup

Posted by: enlo22 Apr 1 2014, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 1 2014, 12:49 PM) *
Let's take a look at snare and it's reverb. Snare is very special care demanding instrument. Reverbs usually do half of those snare tone.

Please post me Your current snare setup


I have the bottom and top snare, they both have the same reverb set up, I sent you the eq for one and the other one i'm using ez mix for.



 

Posted by: enlo22 Apr 2 2014, 04:35 AM

alright so I started using the TrackS3 on my guitars and on my kick drum, I copied your settings for the kick drum and now it sounds much better. Does using different eq's work better? like quality wise, the Tracks3 vs the one that comes with reaper? I used the same settings but it sounds much better to my ears lol

here's a link to how it sounds so far :

https://soundcloud.com/enlo22/work-in-progress

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 3 2014, 10:29 AM

Yes! Different EQ's might work different even if You add the same boost / cut amount. That's a very good notice!


About the snare. For metal playing personally I like to use high ratio values (4.0 and above) they help to pull out the attack much better with less treshold roll down.

Warning! It's very easy to destroy tone of the snare with too much compression. The more compressed snare , the more hidden harmonics. Maybe "click only" tone can be cool at the beginning but for long distance it makes snare sound thin like just hitting a cigar box with wooden stick. Of course some pro productions include that type of tone. Here we come with a choice of Yours. I give You 3 options to test:

1. Send both - top and bottom snare tracks from Superioir to one track of Reaper. Add eq and compression. Set the ratio to 4.0, set analyze to peak 100% (if available). Manually set the treshold until You hear snare becomes more punchy and then the "make up" or just call it "compressor out level" so You will hear the same volume of snare no matter if the compressor is on or off.

2. Send top and bottom snare to 2 separated tracks. Use the same EQ for both but...add compression only to the top snare track. Take some compressor tipc from point 1

3. Duplicate snare top track and turn on compressor on this copy. Use point 1 tips to set the compressor. You can destroy it's sound a bit more (more punchy = more attack, less body, less harmonics). You can do this because we will only use this track to add the "click" to snare, while previous 2 track will help us keep natural tone of the snare.

Advantage of trick 3# is that:

1. Tone keeps natural and get's more punch
2. You can always cut that copy and mute it for example at the moments of song where snare is being played softly, or when there is some rimshot (it's already very "peaky"

Posted by: enlo22 Apr 8 2014, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 3 2014, 09:29 AM) *
Yes! Different EQ's might work different even if You add the same boost / cut amount. That's a very good notice!


About the snare. For metal playing personally I like to use high ratio values (4.0 and above) they help to pull out the attack much better with less treshold roll down.

Warning! It's very easy to destroy tone of the snare with too much compression. The more compressed snare , the more hidden harmonics. Maybe "click only" tone can be cool at the beginning but for long distance it makes snare sound thin like just hitting a cigar box with wooden stick. Of course some pro productions include that type of tone. Here we come with a choice of Yours. I give You 3 options to test:

1. Send both - top and bottom snare tracks from Superioir to one track of Reaper. Add eq and compression. Set the ratio to 4.0, set analyze to peak 100% (if available). Manually set the treshold until You hear snare becomes more punchy and then the "make up" or just call it "compressor out level" so You will hear the same volume of snare no matter if the compressor is on or off.

2. Send top and bottom snare to 2 separated tracks. Use the same EQ for both but...add compression only to the top snare track. Take some compressor tipc from point 1

3. Duplicate snare top track and turn on compressor on this copy. Use point 1 tips to set the compressor. You can destroy it's sound a bit more (more punchy = more attack, less body, less harmonics). You can do this because we will only use this track to add the "click" to snare, while previous 2 track will help us keep natural tone of the snare.

Advantage of trick 3# is that:

1. Tone keeps natural and get's more punch
2. You can always cut that copy and mute it for example at the moments of song where snare is being played softly, or when there is some rimshot (it's already very "peaky"


alright man, I did the snare! and also I borrowed my friends bass so I ould actually record using the bass, here's the track with the snare using option 2 from the ones you told me to try and using a real bass lol


 test_.wav ( 5.59MB ) : 82
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 9 2014, 01:15 PM


My first impression is - we need to get rid of that "dry" feeling of drums

Great You could use real bass! It really makes the difference smile.gif

Maybe try to hide the bass drum a bit. I think it stand out above the other instruments too much. I would try some tiny cut like - 2 dB o0f it's volume

I would also consider changes in arrange. When You have the ride cymbal playing the whole overhead lacks power. Maybe it's wort trying to find different hit sample (different note = tone) or different cymbal sample (other model of ride). I'm sure You feel that those parts with ride miss something

Now about the snare

We need to make more live.

Create a FX channel with a reverb. Set the reverb mix to 100% wet. One of my favourite reverbs is MVerb (it's free) it's easy to add reverb without making the mix muddy / blurred. Snare usually nice smaller "room size" and more high cut off + we usually add a lot of reverb to the snare track to make it sound ok.

How do You send drums to the DAW tracks? Every snare track from Superior has a separate Reaper channel or you do like I do - send all snare track to one DAW track for easier control?



Now let's start from the basics

Posted by: enlo22 Apr 9 2014, 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 9 2014, 12:15 PM) *
My first impression is - we need to get rid of that "dry" feeling of drums

Great You could use real bass! It really makes the difference smile.gif

Maybe try to hide the bass drum a bit. I think it stand out above the other instruments too much. I would try some tiny cut like - 2 dB o0f it's volume

I would also consider changes in arrange. When You have the ride cymbal playing the whole overhead lacks power. Maybe it's wort trying to find different hit sample (different note = tone) or different cymbal sample (other model of ride). I'm sure You feel that those parts with ride miss something

Now about the snare

We need to make more live.

Create a FX channel with a reverb. Set the reverb mix to 100% wet. One of my favourite reverbs is MVerb (it's free) it's easy to add reverb without making the mix muddy / blurred. Snare usually nice smaller "room size" and more high cut off + we usually add a lot of reverb to the snare track to make it sound ok.

How do You send drums to the DAW tracks? Every snare track from Superior has a separate Reaper channel or you do like I do - send all snare track to one DAW track for easier control?



Now let's start from the basics



I send the track multi output and it has 2 snare tracks into reaper. I did the reverb using the plug in it came with reaper. I downloaded the one you told me to use but i didn't understand it too well lol, do you have a good setting for the reverb you told me to download? that way i can start from there? as for the Ride cymbal i think i hadn't adjusted the velocity yet!

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 10 2014, 12:59 PM

I tried some verbs from reaper but couldn't find anything useful within 20 minutes :/ I'll try to make You a sample

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 10 2014, 03:22 PM

I did just a quick setup (got to review it on home gear). I made You reaper session so You can check out the settings.


Sorry for the unnecessary samples added. I needed any snare to test things but I had to send it so You could see how it works in the session. Could You send we whole sesion with Your files? smile.gif Would be easier. I would refer to reaper since now smile.gif

 snare_sample.zip ( 18.49MB ) : 85

Posted by: enlo22 Apr 10 2014, 03:46 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 10 2014, 02:22 PM) *
I did just a quick setup (got to review it on home gear). I made You reaper session so You can check out the settings.


Sorry for the unnecessary samples added. I needed any snare to test things but I had to send it so You could see how it works in the session. Could You send we whole sesion with Your files? smile.gif Would be easier. I would refer to reaper since now smile.gif

 snare_sample.zip ( 18.49MB ) : 85


hey man, i downloaded the files, now i'm not sure what i'm supposed to do when them :/ I opened it and saw the settings for MV, what should I do with the snare samples?

I listened to the samples on reaper actually!
but yeah I used your settings and here's how it sounds so far

 snare_test.wav ( 3.96MB ) : 75
 

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 21 2014, 01:55 PM

Snare is still too Dark for metal music. Try to add some high frequencies on the "snare top" track. You can add some more reverb as well.

I would strongly recommend to rearrange cymbals. It's a feeling of drums being very dry. You can add some more crash accents if You really want to have this ride cymbal as a main cymbal there


Tip for hi hat:

Usually there is already much of hi hat on the overhead and room tracks. Mut the hi-=hat track (roll down the volume to zero) to see if the other cymbals volume is ok. Then go back to hi hat track and add just a tiny amount so You will heqar You don't have the hi hat to loud comparing to other cymbals.

Posted by: enlo22 Apr 29 2014, 01:04 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 21 2014, 12:55 PM) *
Snare is still too Dark for metal music. Try to add some high frequencies on the "snare top" track. You can add some more reverb as well.

I would strongly recommend to rearrange cymbals. It's a feeling of drums being very dry. You can add some more crash accents if You really want to have this ride cymbal as a main cymbal there


Tip for hi hat:

Usually there is already much of hi hat on the overhead and room tracks. Mut the hi-=hat track (roll down the volume to zero) to see if the other cymbals volume is ok. Then go back to hi hat track and add just a tiny amount so You will heqar You don't have the hi hat to loud comparing to other cymbals.


hey Darius, are we still doing this thread or not anymore? I wasn't sure!

Posted by: Darius Wave Apr 29 2014, 09:44 AM

As I wrote in the message smile.gif We can continue smile.gif Just give me a bit more time for responses till now smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 May 4 2014, 06:17 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 29 2014, 08:44 AM) *
As I wrote in the message smile.gif We can continue smile.gif Just give me a bit more time for responses till now smile.gif


hey darius Idk if you checked it out but here's what I came up with afterwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxyXhx-BWhI still need more work on the mixing lol, i'm listening to your Odysseus post right now smile.gif I really like it, it's got cool rythms and nice lead parts. Also the mixing in that sounds GREAT lol.

Posted by: Darius Wave May 8 2014, 06:28 PM

Thank You Marco! Trust me - even with a lot of mixing knowledge it's still never ending story to get the sound You want...and always time taking smile.gif Thank You for appreciating a lot of effort I put into composition and mixing


As for Your mixing it's getting better but we still have to a lot of work to make it more organic. Drums are still to dry. We have to keep focusing on details and do it slowly because it's hard to make those tweaks in the "Remote mode" ...more time taking smile.gif

Let's make a few very very tiny tweaks to see what happens with the mix.

1. I thnk overhead track is covering the guitars to much. Try to set the HPF higher - leave just the "hash" of cymbals. Remember - it's not about making each instrument sound good alone, but to make everything work together. I think there is still to much midrange in the cymbals. Tell me one thing...are You using only ONE STEREO TRACK for both - over and room or You also use tracks of each cymbal ?

2. Add 2 or 3 dB to bass guitar volume

3. Add a cut around 1 kHz - 4 to 5 dBs on snare track


4. Add more reverb on snare


You main problem in the mix is that drums still have too much middle. We have to scoop them out a lot and find them "a new place" in the very treble end

Posted by: enlo22 May 13 2014, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ May 8 2014, 05:28 PM) *
Thank You Marco! Trust me - even with a lot of mixing knowledge it's still never ending story to get the sound You want...and always time taking smile.gif Thank You for appreciating a lot of effort I put into composition and mixing


As for Your mixing it's getting better but we still have to a lot of work to make it more organic. Drums are still to dry. We have to keep focusing on details and do it slowly because it's hard to make those tweaks in the "Remote mode" ...more time taking smile.gif

Let's make a few very very tiny tweaks to see what happens with the mix.

1. I thnk overhead track is covering the guitars to much. Try to set the HPF higher - leave just the "hash" of cymbals. Remember - it's not about making each instrument sound good alone, but to make everything work together. I think there is still to much midrange in the cymbals. Tell me one thing...are You using only ONE STEREO TRACK for both - over and room or You also use tracks of each cymbal ?

2. Add 2 or 3 dB to bass guitar volume

3. Add a cut around 1 kHz - 4 to 5 dBs on snare track


4. Add more reverb on snare


You main problem in the mix is that drums still have too much middle. We have to scoop them out a lot and find them "a new place" in the very treble end


hey man! no problem, I always watch your new videos and it sounds so good lol i'm jealous but in a good way of couse smile.gif !
so, my I gave my friend the project to mess around with it a bit. He's really good at mixing electronic music, but i'm not sure it fit with the metal sound I was going for :/ it saved over my Project file sad.gif I tried to get it a bit back to what I had before but i'm bummed cause now i'm lost again! hopefully you can help me lol!

also, I miked the cab for this recording so maybe I might of not gotten such good tone from scratch? any recommendation on miking an amp for metal? i've watched videos etc, but I can't seem to get a tone I want, It's either too Boomy and roomy or too much treble. I read it's better to have a bit more treble and then you can cut it, vs too much boom and it gets muddy?

hope you can help! lol

 Darius_.mp3 ( 1.06MB ) : 109
 

Posted by: Darius Wave May 14 2014, 03:01 PM

I'll try to help smile.gif I have a question before we start. Is there a chance You could upload the files to some kind of player like soundcloud and post "ready to play" stuff? Would be much easier for me smile.gif


We can start from the scratch, making a basis tone of each instrument, track by track, Would be most reasonable


As for the guitars remember - what You hear is NOT what You get. We need to adjust the amp for what microphone will like. Usually the tone would be very thin and even harsh but this will work great if the mic is off center (I usually prefer to set it on the cone). It's important to make huge cut of bass on amp. In my case default Eq settings on the amp is best start. When the mic is close to the cab the bass boost is colosal. You can try to fix it by increasing the distance. For me 3 to 7 cm distance works best depending on mic type.

The process is simple. default eq, Mic off center (You can borrow mic position from my latest videos). Record a sample in double tracking (if You are not able to sort of predict how single guitar will sound after double tracking - always more fat than the tone we make on single guitar track). Listen to the sample. If too much boomy, roll off some bass and again record short sample. Focus on one thing at the time. When You consider bass being ok,. start with the treble

Don't take away too much treble - metal likes treble. Even if You think that single guitar tone is harsh, if might work well in the mix. It's the mid range that is usually scooped out, not the treble.

Note:

We move the mic out of cap/coil because guitar mics boost high frequencies. They are not neutral. Moving them off center brings us closer to the tone we need but...often still nothing to do with the tone we would set up at live peformance

Posted by: enlo22 May 26 2014, 01:23 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ May 14 2014, 02:01 PM) *
I'll try to help smile.gif I have a question before we start. Is there a chance You could upload the files to some kind of player like soundcloud and post "ready to play" stuff? Would be much easier for me smile.gif


We can start from the scratch, making a basis tone of each instrument, track by track, Would be most reasonable


As for the guitars remember - what You hear is NOT what You get. We need to adjust the amp for what microphone will like. Usually the tone would be very thin and even harsh but this will work great if the mic is off center (I usually prefer to set it on the cone). It's important to make huge cut of bass on amp. In my case default Eq settings on the amp is best start. When the mic is close to the cab the bass boost is colosal. You can try to fix it by increasing the distance. For me 3 to 7 cm distance works best depending on mic type.

The process is simple. default eq, Mic off center (You can borrow mic position from my latest videos). Record a sample in double tracking (if You are not able to sort of predict how single guitar will sound after double tracking - always more fat than the tone we make on single guitar track). Listen to the sample. If too much boomy, roll off some bass and again record short sample. Focus on one thing at the time. When You consider bass being ok,. start with the treble

Don't take away too much treble - metal likes treble. Even if You think that single guitar tone is harsh, if might work well in the mix. It's the mid range that is usually scooped out, not the treble.

Note:

We move the mic out of cap/coil because guitar mics boost high frequencies. They are not neutral. Moving them off center brings us closer to the tone we need but...often still nothing to do with the tone we would set up at live peformance



here's a new mix I made, I re recorded guitar tracks too!

https://soundcloud.com/marcoescalante/world-decay-instrumental

Posted by: enlo22 May 26 2014, 05:20 AM

[quote name='enlo22' date='May 26 2014, 12:23 AM' post='686830']
here's a new mix I made, I re recorded guitar tracks too!

https://soundcloud.com/marcoescalante/world-decay-instrumental-1

Posted by: Darius Wave May 26 2014, 09:53 PM

Your mixes become better - I mean...now it's place for all the instruments and low end is more even - better bass drum and bass match


I think that for that kind of playing You could add some more guitars volume - just a few dB's will make a difference. Probably same with the snare

Posted by: enlo22 Jul 6 2014, 07:48 PM

hey darius, I got a mesa rectifier 4 12 with Celestion G12T75 in it! the guy i bought it from said to set my head at 16 ohms cause that's how he di the wiring for the cab. I want to record with it, i think it'll give me some new tones to work with instead of my old crappy Raven cab lol

Posted by: Darius Wave Jul 15 2014, 12:06 PM

That's a great news! It's worth going through all the toturials on miking the cab on YouTube. There is no one and only method. It's easy to mess up the tone even if You have great gear. It something absolutely different than working with impulses or Axe/Kemper things smile.gif It's really worth knowin how Your amp sounds thorugh the microphone and what kind of position it likes smile.gif

Posted by: enlo22 Aug 16 2014, 01:17 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jul 15 2014, 11:06 AM) *
That's a great news! It's worth going through all the toturials on miking the cab on YouTube. There is no one and only method. It's easy to mess up the tone even if You have great gear. It something absolutely different than working with impulses or Axe/Kemper things smile.gif It's really worth knowin how Your amp sounds thorugh the microphone and what kind of position it likes smile.gif



hey man, i've been trying to mix this down and it's giving me problems lol Idk something about the bass doesn't sound right to me, if you could take a listen and give me some advice I'd really appreciate it

 darius_test.wav ( 2.2MB ) : 121
 

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