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GMC Forum _ Bands and Guitarists _ Rap Isn't Music And Kurt Cobain Can't Play Guitar.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 6 2007, 04:18 AM

Continued from "http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=8260" topic.
---------------------------------

Here is mine: - I can't stand opera music. The exagerated pronounciation of the lyrics and vibrato makes me feel ill!

However - I realise I am probably the problem, so please convince I am wrong (this is the part where I am making sure I am not hurting anyone's feelings) - and recommend me an album! laugh.gif

Kris

Posted by: Animosity Nov 6 2007, 04:21 AM

Hmmm, maybe off topic but I think it needs to be said. biggrin.gif

As I read the former topic I was thinking this:

Isn't it wrong of us to say that so and so is overrated? With the exception of a few, the actual guitarist did not come out and say: "I am the greatest." Isn't it society that creates these over confident persona's we "see" in guitarists? I don't recall Kurt Cobain ever coming out and saying anything about him being a great guitarist. He just wanted to express himself to people, which he did very, VERY effectively. So, in turn, isn't he a success in the musical world? Same goes for people like Slash, Buckethead, etc...

As long as a guitarist doesn't come out and say "I'm awesome," it is wrong for us to judge what he/she is thinking. We cannot assume that this guitarist thinks that they are amazing, or that guitarist is saying they are better than everyone else by playing that solo. It's all, excuse my language, [bullpoop]. We push these people into positions that they do not necessarily want to be in, and with some it takes its toll. Look at Cobain..

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that we shouldn't dislike certain guitarists because they are doing what they love. Society is creating all of this hype, not the guitarist(with the exception of a few). So don't hate the player, hate the society that worships the player. After all, most of them are just doing what they love and aren't trying to "be better" than anyone else.

Just my two cents. wink.gif

Language NOT excused, and edited - Andrew

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 6 2007, 04:21 AM

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 5 2007, 10:18 PM) *
Continued from "http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=8260" topic.
---------------------------------

Here is mine: - I can't stand opera music. The exagerated pronounciation of the lyrics and vibrato makes me feel ill!

However - I realise I am probably the problem, so please convince I am wrong (this the part where I am making sure I am not hurting anyone's feelings) - and recommend me an album! laugh.gif

Kris


I would argue that the top 5% of ANY genre is worth listening to, identifying the top 5% is the hard bit though. For opera I would start with Carmen - it has some top notch tunes and a reasonable story line smile.gif

Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif

Posted by: lefty01 Nov 6 2007, 04:37 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 10:21 PM) *
I would argue that the top 5% of ANY genre is worth listening to, identifying the top 5% is the hard bit though. For opera I would start with Carmen - it has some top notch tunes and a reasonable story line smile.gif

Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif

I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 6 2007, 04:40 AM

QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 10:37 PM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif


Ok, don't get me wrong, I have no love for rap myself, but in rap, the emphasis is on the rhythm and content of the lyrics, not the musical content ... and yes, some of the best rappers have something to say here as they have been through a creative process themselves, and I can appreciate that even though I don't enjoy the product.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 6 2007, 04:44 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 09:21 PM) *
I would argue that the top 5% of ANY genre is worth listening to, identifying the top 5% is the hard bit though. For opera I would start with Carmen - it has some top notch tunes and a reasonable story line smile.gif

Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif


This is my very favorite Raggae song, enjoy.

http://www.all4humor.com/videos/funny-videos/kill-the-white-man.html

Posted by: Arrival Nov 6 2007, 04:45 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 09:40 PM) *
Ok, don't get me wrong, I have no love for rap myself, but in rap, the emphasis is on the rhythm and content of the lyrics, not the musical content ... and yes, some of the best rappers have something to say here as they have been through a creative process themselves, and I can appreciate that even though I don't enjoy the product.

I'm kind of on the same page here. I think nearly all rap would be just as effective for expression without any "musical" accompaniment. On the other hand, I can hardly say the same for bands like Pink Floyd.

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 6 2007, 04:45 AM

Also opera covers an awful lot of ground - from Montiverdi way up to modern stuff like Thomas Ades. Some I really enjoy whilst some I find too much and even strident: I can quite happily listen to Rusalka, Carmen, Turn of the Screw, Child in our Time, Power Her Face etc but the Ring Cycle just doesn't do it for me. I still listen to it now and then to try to see what I'm missing. As I listen to more I'm building up a better and wider appreciation of the art form - still not enough to enjoy the Ring though but time will tell unsure.gif .

To some extent I find opera can depend on the singer as well. I can listen to someone like Dawn Upshaw or Anne Sophie von Otter or Renne Fleming but some others leave me cold. That though is my personal taste.

It's the same with Rap - some I really enjoy (and I've said this before on a different thread) and really admire the musicianship and the production quality and skills. Same is true of most of the guitar players named in the other thread - I think most/maybe all have recorded something of merit at some point, whether technically or musically or both.

Reggae - helps if you're in a club Andrew and the bass (and sub bass) is really hitting you in the chest cool.gif . Otherwise, and I'm sure others will say the same, Bob Marley is always a good argument for reggae though I'd also add in Lee Perry and the Ark Studios. Without reggae it's quite possible that a lot of modern recording techniques - particularly where it involves sampling and/or heavy echo- just wouldn't be the same wink.gif .

For me the challenge in my wanting to be a musician is listening to a musical form/musician I'm not used to or don't personally like and trying to understand why others do like it and what may be admirable about it. That, for me, takes a lot more effort then just writing someone/thing off. I'm a long way off that goal but I carry on. (Latest one I'm struggling with is my wife's new fav - the Robert Plant/Alison Krauss collab blink.gif . She really likes it so it must have redeeming features to it - errr somewhere smile.gif ).

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Fsgdjv Nov 6 2007, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 6 2007, 04:37 AM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif

Finally someone saying something else than just "rap isn't music, I'm right, you're wrong"! So basically, here's what I have to say..

First of all, rapping is their instrument, and it's not really talking, it's about as much talking as growling is screaming, in some ways it's talking (just like growling has some similarities with screaming) but there's more to it than just a guy talking. The rapper still has to take tones etc, but it's not as much as in "normal" songs, and it's nowhere near symphonic, but it's still music. Music has more things to it than just melody, rythm, pauses, etc. I mean come on, if there are musical pieces that are just silence, then rap would definetly qualify as music. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2276621.stm)

Some good rap songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE83vVfKoa0 - Promoe - A Likkle Supm Supm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIL6j0gZab4 - Looptroop - Last Song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bc_0mSydeo - Atmosphere - F*ck You Lucy

(oh, and btw, I barely listen to rap at all, I just respect the genre tongue.gif )

Posted by: shredmandan Nov 6 2007, 05:11 AM

QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 11:37 PM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif



This is the way i look at rap aswell wink.gif But i guess you do have to consider it music even if you dont like it.I guess music can be anything that makes a sound like if you just stomp your foot on the ground several times that could be considered music cause your making a sound or maybe even these people that can burp the alphabet,that could be considered music cause there making different pitch's tongue.gif

Posted by: FretDancer69 Nov 6 2007, 05:17 AM

First of all. Id like to apologize for the mess caused by the topic Overrated Guitarists. I knew there would be some discussions, but i didnt think it was going to get out of control. Again, i apologize, Kris, and the moderating team.

Also, im sure i DID NOT bashed Cobain, how could i bash the person who invented and wrote the songs i used to play over and over when i was a beginner and made me so proud of myself? and not only that, but motivated me to keep practicing and reach my current level?.



QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 09:37 PM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif


im with you man!!! I totally agree with you. What about US ? who spend hours and hours, years and years playing our instrument. And other people just grab a beat and talk stuff with it and call it music. I know im generalizing alot here, but thats what i think.




QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 5 2007, 10:01 PM) *
I mean come on, if there are musical pieces that are just silence, then rap would definetly qualify as music.


i highly doubt that. Imo, Music is the combination of silence,melody and rythm. If its just silence, then i doubt its music.

QUOTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bc_0mSydeo - Atmosphere - F*ck You Lucy


lol laugh.gif , thats a nice title for a song. laugh.gif laugh.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: Robin Nov 6 2007, 05:20 AM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JUPz3YWXIbI - Nirvana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C2b8XWJnfE - Run DMC
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-sbqIyeed4g - Beastie Boys

If this is bad music then I guess all music is bad music! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Fsgdjv Nov 6 2007, 05:20 AM

QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Nov 6 2007, 05:17 AM) *
[i][color=#CC0000]
i highly doubt that. Imo, Music is the combination of [b]silence
,melody and rythm. If its just silence, then i doubt its music.

dude, check my link after, it's the first thing that popped up after googling it, and I'm sure I've read somewhere else about that stuff.

Posted by: Arrival Nov 6 2007, 05:25 AM

QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 5 2007, 10:01 PM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bc_0mSydeo - Atmosphere - F*ck You Lucy

I'm from Minneapolis as Atmosphere is and they are huge here. Just about everyone in the university here has Atmosphere on their "iPods".

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 6 2007, 05:29 AM

One of the more interesting arguments in modern 20th C classical music is about the relative merits of John Cage's 4' 33'. A performance of it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E.

Cards on the table - I love John Cage and the debate about 4 33 is more then what the announcer on the video linked here says wink.gif .

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Fsgdjv Nov 6 2007, 05:30 AM

QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 6 2007, 05:25 AM) *
I'm from Minneapolis as Atmosphere is and they are huge here. Just about everyone in the university here has Atmosphere on their "iPods".

Damn, I envy you, Atmosphere are so awesome, it's basically the only hiphop group I ever listen to when I'm not in some special rap mood (wich happens once every third year rolleyes.gif ), damn, I'd love to be somewhere where thay are huge like that.

Posted by: The Uncreator Nov 6 2007, 05:41 AM

Well, im open to alot of different kinds of music (Folk, Rock, Blues, Classical, Opera, Metal, Bluegrass, Cultural Music)

But i have to disagree that the top 5% of any genre is good, because the fundamentals of some music such as rap, i just plain find boring an uninteresting, same goes with Indie, Punk (Newer), Reggae, and some others, ive listened to alot from each genre, and the basics of them, i just....well at times, Hate. Like Reggae, Reggae has that happy go lucky feel to it, and i just dont like it.

alot of people usually say "how can you not like reggae 'cause it sounds happy? dont you like to be happy?"

Now this sounds weird, but i cant listen to "Happy" Music, i believe there is a difference between "Happy" music and music that makes you happy.

Although i dont like Indie, Newer Punk, Rap, Or Reggae, i will never be so ignorant as to say its not music.


And to the first poster, good point about the overrated thing and society, but i think of overrated as a person thinking "well this person is getting all this credit, and i dont see why they should."

I view Overrated simply as another person's oppinion, no different than me saying Iron Maiden is the best musical act in the world, just an oppinion.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 05:53 AM

Here in San Francisco, Rap is probably the only thing bigger than hipster emo.

I don't like some of it myself, but I do think rap should be considered music in its own right. Its just easier to produce. Like all things, there is good rap and there is bad rap, and unfortunately you're all probably only exposed to bad rap (thank MTV for that). But don't underestimate it, if you think its easy to "bust a flow" of words, then go and try it. Its not as easy as we think it is.

Theres good hip hop out there. Hip hop where they actually use instruments I.E. The Roots. Hip hop that focuses on melodies rather than rhymes ala Outkast. Imagine, theres a whole underground community of hip hop enthusiests talking about how top-of-the-charts garbage rap is overrated, just like we're doing with rock bands.

Posted by: The Uncreator Nov 6 2007, 05:57 AM

Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 06:00 AM

QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 5 2007, 08:57 PM) *
Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.


Amen

Posted by: VinceG Nov 6 2007, 06:03 AM

QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 6 2007, 08:37 AM) *
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available. sad.gif
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself. smile.gif


Music is music. It helps express one's opinion, heart, and soul. Music doesn't need an instrument. If you think your a musician just by picking up a guitar then this is where we go on our separate ways. Instruments enhance music. Music is your soul, your feelings-- not what you have in your hands. Hip-Hop artist may not have the instruments that we have but they are still expressing there passion through words. Your opinions are deceived by your view of rap music as the once you hear in music channels or radio. Hear the true essence of hip hop because a lot of hip hop artist that I personally listen to speaks louder than the instrument presented in the palm of your hands.

Ask yourself. does music really comes down to what instrument you play?

Posted by: Arrival Nov 6 2007, 06:20 AM

QUOTE (VinceG @ Nov 5 2007, 11:03 PM) *
Music is music. It helps express one's opinion, heart, and soul. Music doesn't need an instrument. If you think your a musician just by picking up a guitar then this is where we go on our separate ways. Instruments enhance music. Music is your soul, your feelings-- not what you have in your hands. Hip-Hop artist may not have the instruments that we have but they are still expressing there passion through words. Your opinions are deceived by your view of rap music as the once you hear in music channels or radio. Hear the true essence of hip hop because a lot of hip hop artist that I personally listen to speaks louder than the instrument presented in the palm of your hands.

Ask yourself. does music really comes down to what instrument you play?


Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?

Posted by: lefty01 Nov 6 2007, 06:22 AM

QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 6 2007, 12:20 AM) *
Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. That was THE point I was trying to make. smile.gif

Posted by: Lester Nov 6 2007, 06:22 AM

QUOTE
I guess my point about rap not being music is this. I have complete respect for ANYONE who actually plays their own instrument. The guys (like us GMC'ers), who spend countless hours on our chosen craft. Not the "musicians", who push a button, get a drum machine loop running, and "speak" into a mic. I have RESPECT for the players who pay their dues with whatever instrument they choose to play. Look at bass playing for example. A lot of pro bass players have been pushed aside for synth bass. It is even worse for drummers. Try to start a band. See how many drummers are available.
Maybe my rant is more about technology taking away "real" musicians, than rap itself.


I would like to comment here,
I must agree with everyone who says rap is easier to learn then guitar BUT it is definitly music AND a craft.
Maybe this sounds strange but i write raps myself and used to make beats myself, altough i'm definitly more into guitar playing but one of the things that I notice is that I do improve with the time in making raps so it;s definitly a craft in my opinion.
The reason why I rap is that I want to preach the gospel to a lot of people and rap is a tool to do so without having spend years of practice first. (I am not a hardcore rapper).
Maybe too many people speak bad about rap without REALLY listening to rap first. and then I don't talk about 50 cent and Snoop Dogg or whatever, I don't really see them as rappers. not as it's supposed to be in my opinion.

One of the few things I learned about rap and beats:
First, when you listen to a beat with good earplugs you will notice that there are a lot of sounds and melodylines in the beat that you will hardly hear, they are quiet on the background and they gove the beat its good sound that is one thing that makes it a craft.
Second, when you rap you have to make sure of a few things. You will have to be various with the sentence lenght and the tone of your voice to make sure that the song wont get dull after hearing 30 secconds of the song. and you have to make sure to fit in different words to say the same thing but they still have to sound good, thats all about keeping the song alive and not dull.

And all the cursing should be banned from rapsongs, but that is my opinion, everybody has got his own taste but i like rappers who REALLY have something to say...NOT 50 cent, nor Snoop Dogg, nor eminem, nor 2pac who all rap about themselves, glorifying themselves. which does not mean that they cant rap ordont have a good technique or what so ever...but rather listen to some real rap with a message. I myself like McProphet a lot but that is dutch rap so i wont reccomend it to you guys... biggrin.gif

I think a rapper has a better sound with a band behind him instead of a cd, but rapping is still a craft.


QUOTE
Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.


I fully agree with The Uncreator here.



Thank you for reading my book about rapping tongue.gif


Regards,
Lester

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Nov 6 2007, 06:23 AM

Bare in mind Gmcers its agruments like these that seperate us from UG.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 06:29 AM

QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 5 2007, 09:20 PM) *
Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?



Its true that the basis for creating rap is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat. But this is indeed "paying dues" as the producers of these beats work tirelessly to come up with the perfect combination of sound. I can say with absolute confidence that there are hip-hop produces that work just as hard, if not harder, than some guitarists (even famous ones). Take http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanye_West for example. Or Timbaland, who is basically a slightly overweight recluse because of all the producing he does.

I have a friend who is a hip-hop producer, and he works just as hard as I do to perfect our respective crafts. He's sacrificed to be able to buy his producers work-station, he has turned down invitations to go hang out because he wanted to work on his beats, and he's obsessed with producing top quality work. Those, atleast to me, are all the signs of a hard working and devoted musician.
I invite any of you to contend otherwise.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 6 2007, 06:30 AM

Great to see some polite argumentation going! biggrin.gif

Posted by: lefty01 Nov 6 2007, 06:42 AM

QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 6 2007, 12:29 AM) *
Its true that the basis for creating rap is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat. But this is indeed "paying dues" as the producers of these beats work tirelessly to come up with the perfect combination of sound. I can say with absolute confidence that there are hip-hop produces that work just as hard, if not harder, than some guitarists (even famous ones). Take http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanye_West for example. Or Timbaland, who is basically a slightly overweight recluse because of all the producing he does.

I have a friend who is a hip-hop producer, and he works just as hard as I do to perfect our respective crafts. He's sacrificed to be able to buy his producers work-station, he has turned down invitations to go hang out because he wanted to work on his beats, and he's obsessed with producing top quality work. Those, atleast to me, are all the signs of a hard working and devoted musician.

I guess, I'm saying that so much of rap is created in the studio, using PRO-TOOLS. I know that rap is not the only form of "music" that uses this, but my respect is for those who can TRULY play an instrument. Stick me in a studio with PRO-TOOLs, and I'll be the next Britney Spears. Now, hit me baby, one more time. tongue.gif

Posted by: Resurrection Nov 6 2007, 06:42 AM

A few comments on this and the "overrated guitarist" thread. < zips flameproof suit and slips into kevlar vest ph34r.gif >

Rap is a form of music, although a fairly extreme form where rhythm and meter are given much more precedence than melody, harmony and the other possible components of "music". To my mind, rap is much closer to an art form such as poetry, where emotion is conveyed by the choice of words and their timing and emphasis.

Cobain could play guitar, but his abilities on the instrument were far overshadowed by the effect of his looks and persona, and the songs/lyrics that Nirvana produced. He was very much a product of his generation and his tragic death has elevated him to an icon of that period, much more than a musician.

When you're classifying a guitarist as "overrated", what you're actually saying is "this guitarist seems to be very popular or gets a lot of respect as a musician and I don't understand why, because his/her music doesn't do anything for me". All it means is that you don't understand why lots of other people seem to think differently from you. I don't know about anyone else, but I can think of quite a few examples (both musical and non-musical) where the rest of world seems to act in ways that seem strange to me!

On the question of whether musicians who don't play "proper instruments" or rely a lot on on technology produce valid "music" or not, here's another way to think about it. If an architect designs an amazing house on a computer, then gets a builder to build that house for him, is that house any less wonderful to someone looking at it than a house where a single person did the design, hand-crafted all the materials and carried out all the construction? Probably not. As musicians, some of us are like the first house builder and some of us are like the second house builder, depending on which way of creating music gives us more personal satisfaction.

For the record, I don't understand how people like freeform jazz, many forms of country music, or reggae (+1 Uncreator). Does that make me weird? laugh.gif

Posted by: Fsgdjv Nov 6 2007, 06:44 AM

QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 6 2007, 06:42 AM) *
I guess, I'm saying that so much of rap is created in the studio, using PRO-TOOLS. I know that rap is not the only form of "music" that uses this, but my respect is for those who can TRULY play an instrument. Stick me in a studio with PRO-TOOLs, and I'll be the next Britney Spears. Now, hit me baby, one more time. tongue.gif

The technique of playing an instrument, is not what makes the music, it's the thought put in. I could do excercises on guitar 10 hours/day for 30 years without being a musician, it's what you create, whatever you use. Like I think VinceG said, the instrument is just a tool, it's not the actual music.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 06:45 AM

QUOTE (lefty01 @ Nov 5 2007, 09:42 PM) *
Stick me in a studio with PRO-TOOLs, and I'll be the next Britney Spears. Now, hit me baby, one more time. tongue.gif


Speaking of which....... http://youtube.com/watch?v=-NwqN-xj9Xs

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 6 2007, 06:49 AM

QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 6 2007, 06:44 AM) *
The technique of playing an instrument, is not what makes the music, it's the thought put in. I could do excercises on guitar 10 hours/day for 30 years without being a musician, it's what you create, whatever you use. Like I think VinceG said, the instrument is just a tool, it's not the actual music.


This summarizes my personal opinion well! smile.gif

Now - if you know how to play instrument it facilitates getting the "thought" out!

Posted by: Arrival Nov 6 2007, 07:07 AM

QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 5 2007, 11:29 PM) *
Its true that the basis for creating rap is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat. But this is indeed "paying dues" as the producers of these beats work tirelessly to come up with the perfect combination of sound. I can say with absolute confidence that there are hip-hop produces that work just as hard, if not harder, than some guitarists (even famous ones). Take http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanye_West for example. Or Timbaland, who is basically a slightly overweight recluse because of all the producing he does.

I have a friend who is a hip-hop producer, and he works just as hard as I do to perfect our respective crafts. He's sacrificed to be able to buy his producers work-station, he has turned down invitations to go hang out because he wanted to work on his beats, and he's obsessed with producing top quality work. Those, atleast to me, are all the signs of a hard working and devoted musician.
I invite any of you to contend otherwise.


Yes, but if you took away the saved file on his computer, could he remember that exact beat and replicate it?

Creating beats is more like writing a book, you can erase, move, do whatever you want to it, come back later and it's still there. However, could he ever play it live?

If you have respect for someone's innate and natural human ability to type and click on a computer for hours (sound familiar? laugh.gif ) then that is totally fine. I have none for it.

Edit: Also, music is about boundaries. Our favorite musicians are just that because either they have broken boundaries or moved passed boundaries we didn't even know existed. A computerized beat eliminates all boundaries. With this technique, anyone can do absolutely anything they want.

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 6 2007, 07:14 AM

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 5 2007, 11:49 PM) *
This summarizes my personal opinion well! smile.gif

Now - if you know how to play instrument it facilitates getting the "thought" out!


And the studio, Pro Tools/Cubase/Reaper, drum machines, samplers and so on are 'instruments' in their own right. Think about the great producers and recording engineers from the past. Where would the Beatles be if not for George Martin? Think about Abbey Road, Brittania Row, EMI, the BBC's Maida Vale. Andy Jackson's Pink Floyd's sound engineer. Quincy Jones' influence on Michael Jackson through 'Thriller' and beyond. Think about Butch Vig and Seattle. I could go on for a long while here but it would get boring.

There are thousands of us who have production facilities at home or work who, using Spiderusalem's great example, have yet to produce something as inspired or as well worked through as a Kanye West track.

At the end of the day, to me drum machines, sequencing, samplers, recording techniques et al are just a more modern part of the arsenal available to us as musicians - along with electric guitars and more traditional acoustic instruments. What counts to me is the talent, creativity and skills to be able to use them well and appropriately.

BTW - as I recall Charlie Christian was heavily criticised for putting a microphone and subsequently a pickup on his guitar nearly a century ago. Critics then bemoaned how he was not using a traditional instrument that relied on skill.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 07:15 AM

QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 5 2007, 10:07 PM) *
Yes, but if you took away the saved file on his computer, could he remember that exact beat and replicate it?

Creating beats is more like writing a book, you can erase, move, do whatever you want to it, come back later and it's still there. However, could he ever play it live?

If you have respect for someone's innate and natural human ability to type and click on a computer for hours (sound familiar? laugh.gif ) then that is totally fine. I have none for it.


well then you just said it. Hip hop producing is more akin to writing a book, which If we are going by that comparison, is a difficult task just like any other you'd have to train yourself in to get good at.

But I do respect your decision not to like/enjoy it. I say tomato, you say potatoe. same difference

Posted by: PlayAllDay Nov 6 2007, 07:27 AM

Music is a form of expression - and the forms chosen by the disassociated are reflecting their status (or lack thereof) in society. Rap began because it was CHEAP to produce because when you don't got no cash, you don't got no cash...and it's a rebellious artform so the emphasis was never going to be on spending time perfecting your instrumental capabilities, somewhat related to punk in that.
People make music because of who they are - and people like or don't like certain music because of who they are... music is there for us all in its infinite variety.
I never met a piece of music I couldn't like a bit simply by trying to understand the artist behind it.
People are way cool cool.gif

Posted by: Arrival Nov 6 2007, 07:30 AM

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 6 2007, 12:14 AM) *
And the studio, Pro Tools/Cubase/Reaper, drum machines, samplers and so on are 'instruments' in their own right. Think about the great producers and recording engineers from the past. Where would the Beatles be if not for George Martin? Think about Abbey Road, Brittania Row, EMI, the BBC's Maida Vale. Andy Jackson's Pink Floyd's sound engineer. Quincy Jones' influence on Michael Jackson through 'Thriller' and beyond. Think about Butch Vig and Seattle. I could go on for a long while here but it would get boring.

There are thousands of us who have production facilities at home or work who, using Spiderusalem's great example, have yet to produce something as inspired or as well worked through as a Kanye West track.

At the end of the day, to me drum machines, sequencing, samplers, recording techniques et al are just a more modern part of the arsenal available to us as musicians - along with electric guitars and more traditional acoustic instruments. What counts to me is the talent, creativity and skills to be able to use them well and appropriately.

BTW - as I recall Charlie Christian was heavily criticised for putting a microphone and subsequently a pickup on his guitar nearly a century ago. Critics then bemoaned how he was not using a traditional instrument that relied on skill.

Cheers,
Tony

I think we are all definitely at a stalemate here. I will end with this, unless I am provoked otherwise...

Pink Floyd made it a point to "not let the technology control their music." It was only a gift and a tool to enhance the music. It saddens me to see technology controlling music to the level it does today.

In the end, music is as indescribable and undefinable as life, love, and truth.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 07:32 AM

QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 5 2007, 10:30 PM) *
I think we are all definitely at a stalemate here. I will end with this, unless I am provoked otherwise...

Pink Floyd made it a point to "not let the technology control their music." It was only a gift and a tool to enhance the music. It saddens me to see technology controlling music to the level it does today.

In the end, music is as indescribable and undefinable as life, love, and truth.


I'll respect that

Posted by: Arrival Nov 6 2007, 07:41 AM

QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 6 2007, 12:32 AM) *
I'll respect that

I'd say respect is one of my five favorite verbs.

Posted by: ActiveX Nov 6 2007, 07:51 AM

I'm not really a fan of rap and hip-hop, but I do believe it has its merits. Do I hold a tremendous amount of respect for the musicianship of most rap or hip-hop artists? Nope......but sometimes it's fun to go to a hip-hop club, have a couple of drinks, listen to the beat, and watch the honeys shake their stuff tongue.gif

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 08:18 AM

QUOTE (ActiveX @ Nov 5 2007, 10:51 PM) *
I'm not really a fan of rap and hip-hop, but I do believe it has its merits. Do I hold a tremendous amount of respect for the musicianship of most rap or hip-hop artists? Nope......but sometimes it's fun to go to a hip-hop club, have a couple of drinks, listen to the beat, and watch the honeys shake their stuff tongue.gif


At the end of the day, isn't that really what its all about? laugh.gif

Posted by: shredmandan Nov 6 2007, 08:19 AM

QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Nov 5 2007, 11:57 PM) *
Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.



Well said
Made a point to me atleast smile.gif I completly hate rap and it makes me sick what i see on MTV.I dont want my children to ever see this stuff like life is about gold chains and teeth,and woman looking sexy while shaking there butts,but i made an error saying that it's not music .Regardless how horrible i see it and how talentless its still considered music cause of sound.I guess i need to fraise it as i dont like it and have no respect for it what so ever.Thanks for letting me see it a different way and changing my mind atleast on what it's labeled wink.gif

Posted by: Asphyxia Feeling Nov 6 2007, 08:50 AM

wow. this thread title makes some pretty bold and opinionated statments. i think people need to understand that there is something worth apperciating in ALL forms of music. there's some good "stupid emo trash" music. there is good hip-hop. and kurt cobain never said he could play guitar. on the contrary, he said "i can barely play the thing myself" in an interview. he just expressed himself through his music. and he did it very well. he's going to go down in history far more then overrated "shredders" like Michaelangelo Batio.

i fully understand that some music can just bother you, but to say such narrow-minded things like "rap isn't music" is just showing that you are shallow and ignorant.

(note i'm really not trying to insult / flame anyone, i'd never do that intentionally. it's more a reply to the topic title)

Posted by: VinceG Nov 6 2007, 09:00 AM

QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 6 2007, 10:20 AM) *
Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?


Ahh but that is different. Malmsteen is cheating from your example, hip hop artist are not. They dont sit in the stage pretend to know how to play music. Like I said, you form your basis as rap music sitting in front of a computer creating synthetic sounds. Most hip hop artist that I listen to dont.

As an example, T-Square. Great Japanese fusion band. On there 2003 album T Comes back. They fused hip hop "synthetic" beats and mixes it with jazz.

Steve Vai used Pro Tools and synthetic drums to some of his songs.

A lot of metal bands uses drum machines.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 6 2007, 09:01 AM

QUOTE (Asphyxia Feeling @ Nov 6 2007, 02:50 AM) *
(note i'm really not trying to insult / flame anyone, i'd never do that intentionally. it's more a reply to the topic title)


Well Kris started the topic, so I am sure he will take your comments on board wink.gif

But maybe, just maybe, he did it to provoke discussion?

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 6 2007, 09:03 AM

I think the intention of the title is to provoke and encourage discussion but without it descending in to a flame war - which as Kris and Andrew pointed out was where the originating thread was headed.

People can, and sometimes do, hold polarised opinions on an issue but that doesn't preclude discussion. And as Shredmandan's earlier post demonstrates civil discussion can have the great benefit of encouraging us to reflect on our position and, if not actually change it, at least think about the alternative/s.

As some UK TV ad used to opine 'talk is good' smile.gif . Anyway as Aspyhyxia says talk is good provided we don't go up in flames smile.gif .

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Arrival Nov 6 2007, 09:12 AM

QUOTE (VinceG @ Nov 6 2007, 02:00 AM) *
Ahh but that is different. Malmsteen is cheating from your example, hip hop artist are not. They dont sit in the stage pretend to know how to play music. Like I said, you form your basis as rap music sitting in front of a computer creating synthetic sounds. Most hip hop artist that I listen to dont.

As an example, T-Square. Great Japanese fusion band. On there 2003 album T Comes back. They fused hip hop "synthetic" beats and mixes it with jazz.

Steve Vai used Pro Tools and synthetic drums to some of his songs.

A lot of metal bands uses drum machines.

I totally get what you're saying. But in all honesty I'm not really talking about using a computer to fill in blanks or blend styles. I'm talking about the completely or nearly completely synthesized backing tracks under a person rapping, which isn't all that difficult.

To be fair, I respect the fusion of technology in music, as with Pink Floyd. But technology should not control and manufacture the music.

Posted by: Understudy Nov 6 2007, 09:13 AM

I think the hardest thing to do in life is to try and find comfort in things that we don't really understand. Rap is music, and there is a talent behind it. Do I appreciate the art form know as rap/hip hop ? No I do not. I do not understand most of it because I am not from that environment. Rap is an art form that shows no values to society and little or no respect to humanity. Where I come from we were taught respect for women and to do the right things in life, and that living was not about who had the most toys and all the money. For all the Cobain haters, I agree he was not a great player but he was a great writer. And for the member that claims Cobain started a huge movement. I don't understand that statement, he didn't start anything. All Cobain did was play in a music scene called grunge. Big deal, Neil Young had been doing it for 40 years before Cobain came along. The real pioneer of grunge in Neil Young, not Cobain. I hope I didn't flame anyone, that was not the intent. Just giving my 2 copper.

Posted by: JVM Nov 6 2007, 09:16 AM

Rap is very much a form of music. It often incorporates pianos, guitars, real drummers, bassists, much the way a soul band would do it. Even when it is all made on a computer, making something on a computer is no different than making something on a guitar, except the computer is a much more versatile and accurate instrument (it's tuning is near perfect, if you want it to be). Some people, myself included, prefer the guitar, but the computer is still every bit an instrument as one.

Is music solely a physical skill, that you learn with your hands or mouth or feet through repetitive motor skills exercises? Or is music an idea that is trying to be expressed, a language that is still understandable whether your accent is a computer or a guitar, or two rocks being beat together, or the human vocal chords at work?

Posted by: Smikey2006 Nov 6 2007, 09:37 AM

heh i like good rap.. such as.. like someone listen to the beastie boys or G love and the special sauce. The music is different and they talk but you can definatly find music there. also the words are fun but they have meaning. Rap these days is all the same. Gangsta's and grills and 42inch rims on my cadilllac and gattin ppl and what ever. If they had something to say about life and religion and stuff like that it would be fine. Also going back to the creative aspect i see so many rappers ripping off rock songs even down to the lyrics. its all about the genre now.. i think its lost its musical aspect. ALSO about Opera biggrin.gif I saw a really good 1 a few days ago It was Rigoletto im not sure of the writer. Of course 1 thing about Opera is the fact that opera is not just music it is a "musical" Unless you know the story ( hard to when its sung in latin) or see it performed just listening to it gets rather boring.

Posted by: Ryan Nov 6 2007, 09:47 AM

QUOTE (Smikey2006 @ Nov 6 2007, 02:37 AM) *
heh i like good rap.. such as.. like someone listen to the beastie boys or G love and the special sauce. The music is different and they talk but you can definatly find music there. also the words are fun but they have meaning. Rap these days is all the same. Gangsta's and grills and 42inch rims on my cadilllac and gattin ppl and what ever. If they had something to say about life and religion and stuff like that it would be fine. Also going back to the creative aspect i see so many rappers ripping off rock songs even down to the lyrics. its all about the genre now.. i think its lost its musical aspect. ALSO about Opera biggrin.gif I saw a really good 1 a few days ago It was Rigoletto im not sure of the writer. Of course 1 thing about Opera is the fact that opera is not just music it is a "musical" Unless you know the story ( hard to when its sung in latin) or see it performed just listening to it gets rather boring.

I hate rap, I dont think its really music at all IMO. Its a bunch of guys rhyming about how much money they got, or how many girls, or sleeping with them or w/e.
BUT
Tupac, some of his songs incorporate real guitar, and real life stuff so I like it.
Cobain, well Im not a big fan of him.

Posted by: The Uncreator Nov 6 2007, 10:12 AM

QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Nov 5 2007, 09:23 PM) *
Bare in mind Gmcers its agruments like these that seperate us from UG.



laugh.gif

True, the arguments here are well minded, and no one is just attacking someone, i dont think anyone should have developed grudges or anythign throughout this thread.

On UG, Some guy who has been on there for 10 years would start insulting everyone and saying how stupid they are. thats why i left the UG Forums for a more "Open" guitar community, thus comes in GMC smile.gif

Posted by: FretDancer69 Nov 6 2007, 11:57 AM

QUOTE (Ryan @ Nov 6 2007, 02:47 AM) *
I hate rap, I dont think its really music at all IMO. Its a bunch of guys rhyming about how much money they got, or how many girls, or sleeping with them or w/e.
BUT
Tupac, some of his songs incorporate real guitar, and real life stuff so I like it.
Cobain, well Im not a big fan of him.


i agree with you here. But if the rap/hip-hop song has a good instrmental arranging to it, and nice vocals, im sure i can appreciate and be able to see the real beauty behind it.


And again, please, Im not a cobain hater dry.gif dry.gif dry.gif

Posted by: Asphyxia Feeling Nov 6 2007, 01:52 PM

several people seem to be commenting that rap has no values / requires little or no talent to make / is just synthesized beats etc.

well. exactly what exposure have you guys had to hip-hop music? the stuff you see on TV? the stuff you hear on the radio? at clubs?

think of it this way. what if we judged rock music based on what we hear on mainstream radio.

rock = panic at the disco! fall out boy, paramore, nickelback, and hoobastank?

if somebody said that to one of us, we'd probably politely tell them they have no idea what they are talking about and need to educate themselves on their rock'n'roll, right?

i think the same can be said of hip-hop. it's true the the overall attitude and "lyrical tone" of rap music is very different from rock. however, there's plenty of legitimate hip-hop artists around. it's just you need to dig deep if you (care enough) to try and find them.

and, plenty of work goes into making a good hip-hop track. sure, it isn't "musical" in a sense of musical theory or playing instruments. it doesn't need to be. rap is basically saying what you want to say over a good / fresh / unique / catchy beat. it utilizes samples from other songs, a multitude of instruments, basically anything that catches the attention of your ears. i have no idea how they really do it, but i'm sure it takes a long time to make sick beats. to say it requires no skill is just ignorant. i can write you a three chord rock song with a penatonic solo in 15 minutes. does rock music require no skill?

as for lyrical content. i think it's subjective. there's plenty of hip-hop that has thought provoking lyrics. there's plenty of rock music that has songs that are about chicks. i think most of all artists write about their lives. if a rap artists deals with gangs or whatever, he's gonna write songs about it. if a rockstar is struggling with a drug addiction or something, he'll write about it! as i said before, you cannot judge a genre based on whats mainstream.

for the record, i'm no hip-hop expert myself. until a year or two ago i hated it just as much as anybody else did. to me it was just stupid wannabe poetry about banging women and shooting people. then a friend of mine started bumping some cool hip-hop in his car and it opened my ears to a whole new world of music.

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 01:56 PM

QUOTE (Asphyxia Feeling @ Nov 6 2007, 04:52 AM) *
several people seem to be commenting that rap has no values / requires little or no talent to make / is just synthesized beats etc.

well. exactly what exposure have you guys had to hip-hop music? the stuff you see on TV? the stuff you hear on the radio? at clubs?

think of it this way. what if we judged rock music based on what we hear on mainstream radio.

rock = panic at the disco! fall out boy, paramore, nickelback, and hoobastank?

if somebody said that to one of us, we'd probably politely tell them they have no idea what they are talking about and need to educate themselves on their rock'n'roll, right?

i think the same can be said of hip-hop. it's true the the overall attitude and "lyrical tone" of rap music is very different from rock. however, there's plenty of legitimate hip-hop artists around. it's just you need to dig deep if you (care enough) to try and find them.

and, plenty of work goes into making a good hip-hop track. sure, it isn't "musical" in a sense of musical theory or playing instruments. it doesn't need to be. rap is basically saying what you want to say over a good / fresh / unique / catchy beat. it utilizes samples from other songs, a multitude of instruments, basically anything that catches the attention of your ears. i have no idea how they really do it, but i'm sure it takes a long time to make sick beats. to say it requires no skill is just ignorant. i can write you a three chord rock song with a penatonic solo in 15 minutes. does rock music require no skill?

as for lyrical content. i think it's subjective. there's plenty of hip-hop that has thought provoking lyrics. there's plenty of rock music that has songs that are about chicks. i think most of all artists write about their lives. if a rap artists deals with gangs or whatever, he's gonna write songs about it. if a rockstar is struggling with a drug addiction or something, he'll write about it! as i said before, you cannot judge a genre based on whats mainstream.

for the record, i'm no hip-hop expert myself. until a year or two ago i hated it just as much as anybody else did. to me it was just stupid wannabe poetry about banging women and shooting people. then a friend of mine started bumping some cool hip-hop in his car and it opened my ears to a whole new world of music.


thats what i said earlier, but in less words.

I listen to cultural resistance hip hop, thats all about positive change in society. I listen to hip hop with lyrics concerning foreign affairs. I listen to what I consider "good" hip hop thats all underground. I'm sure thats not what most of you are use to.

Posted by: Asphyxia Feeling Nov 6 2007, 02:00 PM

QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 6 2007, 04:56 AM) *
thats what i said earlier, but in less words.

I listen to cultural resistance hip hop, thats all about positive change in society. I listen to hip hop with lyrics concerning foreign affairs. I listen to what I consider "good" hip hop thats all underground. I'm sure thats not what most of you are use to.


haha, sorry spider. i actually never read any of the thread other then what people said after my first post.

i've only just started buying my own hip-hop albums, so i don't know ALOT about the "good" stuff... right now i'm really getting into (old) Nas, Rakim and Eric B, and Immortal Technique.

Posted by: Animosity Nov 6 2007, 02:32 PM

QUOTE (Asphyxia Feeling @ Nov 6 2007, 06:52 AM) *
several people seem to be commenting that rap has no values / requires little or no talent to make / is just synthesized beats etc.

well. exactly what exposure have you guys had to hip-hop music? the stuff you see on TV? the stuff you hear on the radio? at clubs?


I don't know what kind of exposure someone who has never listened to it would get.. The mainstream stuff is an advertisement to people who might dig deeper and find the hidden gems. But if you don't like the advertisement, then you aren't going to dig deeper.


QUOTE (Asphyxia Feeling @ Nov 6 2007, 06:52 AM) *
think of it this way. what if we judged rock music based on what we hear on mainstream radio.

rock = panic at the disco! fall out boy, paramore, nickelback, and hoobastank?


On the contrary, I listen to radio stations that play the music I want to hear. Led Zeppelin, ACDC, Eric Clapton, Thin Lizzy, KISS, Soundgarden, U2, Pearl Jam, The Who, just to name a few. And this is a premiere station in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

P.S. - I bold the two greatest bands ever rolleyes.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: shredmandan Nov 6 2007, 02:57 PM

Just wanted to say i havent really seen many people comment on the Cobain thing except saying they dont hate him.I guess this was a topic in a different post i didnt see.What i think of Cobain?He was very smart and took the music world by storm.I dont think anyone had ever heard this style of music before and man did it take off.I was just getting ready to be a teen when this all started and let me say everybody and there grandma listened to Nirvana tongue.gif .All through my hears in school i always saw fans wearing shirts and stuff .Many of us then and even now started out learning guitar from there songs because they were easy to play,which brings another discussion i have out.

Should we consider actual talent on leval of difficulty to play it huh.gif ?Thats a really tough question for me to answer cause i know the right answer but also i know how i judge music myself.I look for the guitarist that are pulling off insane riff's and shred stuff that seems impossible to play but how can we seperate talent from difficulty?Think about it and i would like to see some other's opinions on here about that.

I would like to end saying although Cobains riff's were not the hardest he sure left with his music having a HUGE impact on guitar player's from 1991 to present day.Sometimes i wonder if he hadnt commited suicide would he be as remebered as if he just continued to make music and fade out.Lets see what you think wink.gif

Posted by: Asphyxia Feeling Nov 6 2007, 03:14 PM

QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 6 2007, 05:32 AM) *
I don't know what kind of exposure someone who has never listened to it would get.. The mainstream stuff is an advertisement to people who might dig deeper and find the hidden gems. But if you don't like the advertisement, then you aren't going to dig deeper.


yes, i agree. it just comes that we're all interested in rock music to begin with anyway. i didn't have a "rock'n'roll" upbringing so to speak; nobody in my family was really interested in music. the first bands i liked were blink-182 and sum 41. it was through them that i ended up being exposed to everything else. for most of us (i included) hip-hop has this really stupid gangster whatever commercial image, so we aren't interested in it at all. so we don't even bother looking across the bridge. like i said, i only started liking rap after a friend of mine exposed me to better stuff.
QUOTE
On the contrary, I listen to radio stations that play the music I want to hear. Led Zeppelin, ACDC, Eric Clapton, Thin Lizzy, KISS, Soundgarden, U2, Pearl Jam, The Who, just to name a few. And this is a premiere station in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

P.S. - I bold the two greatest bands ever rolleyes.gif laugh.gif


well. perhaps radio was a bad example. what i meant was outlets that play new music. like, the radio stations where i live... mainstream radio is "THE DESERTS BEST MIX" best mix = nickelback. your radio station sounds awesome!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 6 2007, 08:21 PM

A little defence in case anyone should think I am against rap music or Cobain.

http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/Audio_free/Arbeideklassen.mp3 (Not many real instruments but I still enjoyed it alot)

http://www.freelicks.net/NIRVANA.htm

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 6 2007, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 6 2007, 11:21 AM) *
A little defence in case anyone should think I am against rap music or Cobain.

http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/Audio_free/Arbeideklassen.mp3 (Not many real instruments but I still enjoyed it alot)

http://www.freelicks.net/NIRVANA.htm



You just got cooler by leaps and bounds. how did you do that blink.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 6 2007, 09:56 PM

QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 6 2007, 02:28 PM) *
You just got cooler by leaps and bounds. how did you do that blink.gif


Kris has magical powers Spider, he just doesn't brag about them, and waits for the right moment to reveal them!

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 7 2007, 05:08 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 6 2007, 12:56 PM) *
Kris has magical powers Spider, he just doesn't brag about them, and waits for the right moment to reveal them!


word.

I love the idea that Kris does his own hip hop. for a while i felt like the lone soldier in cahoots with the enemy.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 7 2007, 05:09 AM

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Animosity Nov 7 2007, 05:12 AM

QUOTE (Spiderusalem @ Nov 6 2007, 10:08 PM) *
word.

I love the idea that Kris does his own hip hop. for a while i felt like the lone soldier in cahoots with the enemy.


You are. blink.gif blink.gif biggrin.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: Spiderusalem Nov 7 2007, 05:15 AM

QUOTE (Animosity @ Nov 6 2007, 08:12 PM) *
You are. blink.gif blink.gif biggrin.gif tongue.gif


yeah thanks for pointing that out mad.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: bricktop Nov 11 2007, 07:19 AM

I can't argue with the OP topic because I feel the same way...

Posted by: krawetz Dec 13 2007, 09:04 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 10:21 PM) *
I would argue that the top 5% of ANY genre is worth listening to, identifying the top 5% is the hard bit though. For opera I would start with Carmen - it has some top notch tunes and a reasonable story line smile.gif

Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif

i was never big on reggae until i started listening to sublime then i found bob marley to be quite enjoyable.

Posted by: Mackietao Dec 13 2007, 10:39 AM

hahaha.. hiphop in norwegian sounds so bad.. In a funny way.. smile.gif
Cool song though, I like the groove =) If it had been in swedish I would probably have liked it.

Posted by: David.C.Bond Dec 13 2007, 11:06 AM

Interesting topic.
Opera is personally one of my favourite types of music, I've been to countless concerts of it and and two separate occasions listened to Wagner's entire ring cycle in one sitting (14-17 hours long depending on the conductor).
I will say though that it is much better in concert than on recordings, you lose out on the whole visual, dramatic aspect of it which plays such a massive part, when you listen to a recording.
Having said that, I have always been exposed to opera and a variety of classical music, right through from Byrd, Dowland etc, to Cage, Lutoslawski, Webern, Messiaen etc because of my formal music education. My point is that perhaps because I have been exposed to this music since I was very young, I have grown accustomed to it and therefore enjoy it.

I generally think of myself as a composer before a guitar player, and most of my composition is either opera, electroacoustic/avant garde or based on old methods such as fugues and sonata form. Because of this familiarity with the structure, stylistic features, techniques etc involved in opera it may be more interesting for me to listen to than others?

As far as rap is concerned, like Tony said (or was it Andrew?), I don't particularly enjoy it myself but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the skill that is involved.

Posted by: Owen Dec 13 2007, 07:55 PM

Kris I take personal offense! My aunt is an opera singer! mad.gif






Just Kidding (but the aunt bit was true)! cool.gif wink.gif










(When I was very little I used to put my fingers in my ears and shout every time she started practicing)- I didnt like Opera then but I dont mind it now laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

In terms of stuff I actually genuinely sincerely dont like I think :-

Speed Metal is pretty bad *sorry guys, I think music doesnt have to be greatly complicated to be good, the simplest melodies are the best*

Posted by: jeff Dec 13 2007, 08:49 PM

Rap is cool because you can walk around holding your package. If anyone questions you, you can just say "hey man, I'm just rapping!" As an added bonus you get to wear pants that don't fit and and a solid gold grill for your teeth. I want one of those big clocks too!

Reggae is cool. You gotta dig those dreadlocks.

Cobain is cool. He plays Fenders.

Opera is cool because it allowed Budweiser to make those awesome commercials about sneaking beer into a show.

It's all good man. Music is music - it is what it is. You don't have to think of a specific song as Rap, Reggae, Opera - whatever and like or dislike the whole genre. Just learn what you can from whatever songs you like. You can always turn the dial tongue.gif . Unless one of those punks rolls up next to you with his new ride sporting a sub-woofer that costs more than his car. biggrin.gif

Posted by: The Uncreator Dec 13 2007, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Owen @ Dec 13 2007, 10:55 AM) *
Kris I take personal offense! My aunt is an opera singer! mad.gif
Just Kidding (but the aunt bit was true)! cool.gif wink.gif
(When I was very little I used to put my fingers in my ears and shout every time she started practicing)- I didnt like Opera then but I dont mind it now laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

In terms of stuff I actually genuinely sincerely dont like I think :-

Speed Metal is pretty bad *sorry guys, I think music doesnt have to be greatly complicated to be good, the simplest melodies are the best*


Don' t you think "Speed Metal" is so vague?

I mean, nearly every genre has bands that play fast as hell.

Just my personal thoughts

Posted by: Drew Apr 19 2008, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (krawetz @ Dec 13 2007, 04:04 AM) *
i was never big on reggae until i started listening to sublime then i found bob marley to be quite enjoyable.



I was gonna say Sublime rocks. Their like rock, punk, and reggae all in one and i actually think of them in their own genre.
And for all the rap haters think what clubs would be like with out rap. no more pretty ladies bumping and grinding against you. You cant bump and grind with rock biggrin.gif
BTW i only like dr. dre, snoop, and eminem and d12
and maybe nelly cause i live somewhat close to STL and you gotta represent your hood dawgs

Posted by: Marshmall0wz Apr 19 2008, 01:21 AM




QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 11:21 PM) *
Now, can someone convince me that Reggae is worth listening to ?? wink.gif


OH COME ONE!? i'll start by saying i don't like these kind of threads much but this post was a bit upsetting to me! I mean reggae is about emotional lyrics, raging basslines and inspiring people. If i listen to steven marley for 30 seconds, I feel so good. Like 100% better. no genre can be exused or shunned because it's "bad". if one wants to be a great guitarist, they must approach everything as different smile.gif now go listen to three little birds BY bob marley

Posted by: Unleash-The-Shred Apr 19 2008, 01:24 AM

Speaking of rap this was just released today haha.

http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/listoftheday/2977/the-25-worst-rappers-of-all-time

Posted by: Drew Apr 19 2008, 01:43 AM

Even when it is all made on a computer, making something on a computer is no different than making something on a guitar, except the computer is a much more versatile and is every bit an instrument as one.

Is music solely a physical skill, that you learn with your hands or mouth or feet through repetitive motor skills exercises? Or is music an idea that is trying to be expressed, a language that is still understandable whether your accent is a computer or a guitar, or two rocks being beat together, or the human vocal chords at work?
[/quote]


Thats a great statement. It did take some sort of creativity to put those notes or beats together even if they were made on a computer. And if that isnt creative then everything we do as guitar players is just muscle memory. Just because our instrument requires hours/years of practice to be able create certain melodies doesnt mean its any more musical than a computer, it's just more prestigious and has more respect because people understand that it requires much more practice and dedication to get a sound from a guitar rather than a computer. However I believe that there are certain things that cant be expressed as well through a computer like bending, vibrato, and phrasing things that are unique to every player and is what enables us as listeners to recognize one guitarist from another. Brilliant comment though JVM

Posted by: Unleash-The-Shred Apr 19 2008, 01:50 AM

QUOTE (Drew @ Apr 18 2008, 08:43 PM) *
Even when it is all made on a computer, making something on a computer is no different than making something on a guitar, except the computer is a much more versatile and is every bit an instrument as one.

Is music solely a physical skill, that you learn with your hands or mouth or feet through repetitive motor skills exercises? Or is music an idea that is trying to be expressed, a language that is still understandable whether your accent is a computer or a guitar, or two rocks being beat together, or the human vocal chords at work?



Thats a great statement. It did take some sort of creativity to put those notes or beats together even if they were made on a computer. And if that isnt creative then everything we do as guitar players is just muscle memory. Just because our instrument requires hours/years of practice to be able create certain melodies doesnt mean its any more musical than a computer, it's just more prestigious and has more respect because people understand that it requires much more practice and dedication to get a sound from a guitar rather than a computer. However I believe that there are certain things that cant be expressed as well through a computer like bending, vibrato, and phrasing things that are unique to every player and is what enables us as listeners to recognize one guitarist from another. Brilliant comment though JVM



Honestly, it takes a lot more to play an instrument then to just rap and click buttons to produce a noise on a computer.

It takes skill and knowledge to learn an instrument and more or less just knowledge of what to do to create a beat on a computer.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Apr 19 2008, 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Marshmall0wz @ Apr 18 2008, 08:21 PM) *
OH COME ONE!? i'll start by saying i don't like these kind of threads much but this post was a bit upsetting to me! I mean reggae is about emotional lyrics, raging basslines and inspiring people. If i listen to steven marley for 30 seconds, I feel so good. Like 100% better. no genre can be exused or shunned because it's "bad". if one wants to be a great guitarist, they must approach everything as different smile.gif now go listen to three little birds BY bob marley


Then you misunderstood the original purpose of this thread - it followed on from exactly the type of thread you hate, Kris started this one to balance it out with informed discussion rather than diatribe. My comment that you kindly quoted was intended to create further discussion - starting a response with capitals like you did makes me think you want a fight so I am in fact going to ignore you.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Apr 19 2008, 01:16 PM

Kurt Cobain was awesome and a genious. His songwriting in my opinion was some of the best ever. Without Nirvana I wouldn't be playing guitar or listening to music as it was them that got me into music when I was really young smile.gif


Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Apr 19 2008, 02:53 PM

QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Apr 19 2008, 04:16 AM) *
Kurt Cobain was awesome and a genious. His songwriting in my opinion was some of the best ever. Without Nirvana I wouldn't be playing guitar or listening to music as it was them that got me into music when I was really young smile.gif


+1 smile.gif



And as Rap is concerned. Its for the most part dead today, with some exceptions. There is no real poetry in it anymore. When Tupac was alive-was when Rap was at its prime. When Tupac died, Rap died with-it. Rap is basically poetry, tuned and modified so the people can relate to it. When Modern Rap came along- It spoke to the people in a different way, a way that wasnt exactly relating to them anymore. Well actually it might have been, but maybe for the wrong reasons.

If you dont like Rap, try some real rap, rap from the heart, try some Tupac- I can gurantee if you listen to this whole song youll have a different view on Rap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxR4AweLeXE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUoUDuAPCZA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNcloTmvTeA&feature=related

Posted by: RandomVictim Apr 19 2008, 03:16 PM

Nirvana's a great bad guys and deep down i think all of you know that. How many of you have NEVER played the opening riff to Smells like Teen Spirit...its almost a staple for guitar

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Apr 19 2008, 03:30 PM

QUOTE (RandomVictim @ Apr 19 2008, 06:16 AM) *
Nirvana's a great bad guys and deep down i think all of you know that. How many of you have NEVER played the opening riff to Smells like Teen Spirit...its almost a staple for guitar


+1 smile.gif

Posted by: audiopaal Apr 19 2008, 03:46 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rHVziQ-tMGM

Now that's good rap!
Iron Man cover by Sir Mixalot! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Apr 19 2008, 04:26 PM

Interesting thread! For me Kurt Cobain was a great songwriter and just a punk rock guitar player. I think that he was a better singer than guitar player.

About Rap and Hip Hop: I discovered that when it's not mivxed with music I get bored when I listen to rap. I like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5T3efSH6NU&feature=related and some thing of EMINEM beacuse they mix rap with nice rock/pop chorus. And that's why I also like RATM.

Gabriel.-

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 19 2008, 08:33 PM

Since important posts get lost in big topics I'll repost my resolution post (just as with music - cool conversations are always about tension and resolution, in my opinion!)

------------------------------

A little defence in case anyone should think I am against rap music or Cobain.

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/Audio_free/Arbeideklassen.mp3 (Not many real instruments but I still enjoyed it alot)

http://www.freelicks.net/NIRVANA.htm

Kris

Posted by: stratman33 Apr 20 2008, 02:49 AM

i agree with gabriel about kurt cobain, but i do believe rap is music if you find the good stuff

Posted by: swingline Apr 20 2008, 03:44 AM

Cobain is a great song writer but definitely not a legendary guitarist. (Even though he is the 12th best guitarist of all time according to Rolling Stone http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5937559/the_100_greatest_guitarists_of_all_time/) Hes like Tom Petty great music but not super hard guitar in it. But I get a kick out of how when Axl was with Guns and Roses he asked him to open for them, but Cobain claimed that they were just a bunch of untalented musicians.

Posted by: ballistic31 Apr 20 2008, 05:19 AM

well all i know is this rap sells big time lol ......I stand to say most woman,, chicks, girls , or however you want to say it,, give them a handfull of cds 1 metal a rap cd a rock cd and a country.......with in a week look what cds they have in there changers in the car ........most likely the rap and the country,,main reason they can dance to it lol ..That and they love pimped out rides.....and i have yet to hear Srv or slayer blareing out of anyone of them lol....It more like start an eathquake with that kicked up bass .......and light up the road with nitros.....

I think as far as opra..Its way to hard to understand what they are singing. in a way its kind of like rap with a dude or woman with some killer pipes......screaming at the top of there lungs like a death metal singer..But allways make for killer songs in movies right before someone gets murdered. lol ...As far and good old Kurt cobain he had to play a gig in heaven..he found a way to get there but he didnt think it out very well,,,,,,,cause once he got there he was like damit smooth move how the hell and i going to get back ...........I thought everybody new that lol

Posted by: Trond Vold Apr 20 2008, 06:57 AM

Kurt Cobain was a mastermind when it came to making brilliant songs out of the simplest guitarbits.
And having Dave Grohl on drums really gave these simple guitars a huge push.

As for rap.. i like Weird Al's rapsongs smile.gif
I thought your rap song was kinda catchy too, Kris smile.gif I take it your not the one singing? .. If so, then i'm hugely impressed with your norwegian ohmy.gif

Posted by: Paul Coutts Apr 20 2008, 08:14 AM

Reggae music is definetly worth listening to....Bob Marley,....reggae went on to spawn great bands such as the slackers, less than jake, Mad Caddies, anything SKA!

biggrin.gif

and WHO can deny music so chilled, and so happy? It's awesome stuff, imho.

Rap used to be music. Heiruspecs, Sage Francis...etc...
check out this song, remix of Sage Francis mixed with Dashboard Confessionals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGiJ8XxmtWU

This kind of rap, I can definetly listen to....but Akon?, 50 Cent?, Notorious B.I.G?, Fat Joe? Fabricated wannabees. Rap is going through the fabrication stage. Just like Pop, and Punk rock did only a few years ago...remember when punk rock was awesome? When Blink-182 and Greenday and Sum 41 were new?...what happened? Record labels saw a fad coming, and COMPLETELY exploited these bands...when they started losing hype, new bands were needed and what came out was half-hearted, crappy, typical teenage "rawk" anthems like Avril, McFly, Busted....meh.

Right now, Rap sucks...it is fabricated and over-produced...it sells, it makes money, and that's all there is to it at the moment. Rap could be good...just not now.

As for Kurt...he's a legend in my book, just like the old Tom DeLonge biggrin.gif

Posted by: Marcus Siepen Apr 20 2008, 11:04 AM

I don't really differenciate between rap, pop, rock, metal, opera or whatever other genre, I differenciate between songs I like and songs I don't like. If a song has the power to catch me, in whatever way, then I couldn't care less if it is rap, rock or whatever else, then it is just a good song. Of course there are genres that I don't really like, which means there are not really a lot of songs in that genre that attract me, but still I don't really like to bash this whole genre. If you really explore a type of music I am sure that you will always be able to find some good artists, even in Rap wink.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Apr 20 2008, 01:35 PM

^^^^^

laugh.gif Thats the kind of thinking I can agree with - my premise is that the top 1% of ANY genre is worth listening to even if you don't like the rest - you will always learn something and probably like it if it is the very best that genre has to offer. For me, a problem is identifying that 1% without listening to all of it wink.gif LIke Marucs, I will listen to any song if it inspires me in some way.

Oh, and yes, I do have a Bob Marley album and listen to it occasionally, for me, he IS in that top 1% of Reggae, the rest however appeals to me less ...

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Apr 20 2008, 01:38 PM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Apr 20 2008, 01:35 PM) *
^^^^^

laugh.gif Thats the kind of thinking I can agree with - my premise is that the top 1% of ANY genre is worth listening to even if you don't like the rest - you will always learn something and probably like it if it is the very best that genre has to offer. For me, a problem is identifying that 1% without listening to all of it wink.gif LIke Marucs, I will listen to any song if it inspires me in some way.

Oh, and yes, I do have a Bob Marley album and listen to it occasionally, for me, he IS in that top 1% of Reggae, the rest however appeals to me less ...

The bottom 1% of any genre shows how not to play lol biggrin.gif

Can also be useful for a laugh smile.gif

Posted by: The Uncreator Apr 20 2008, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Paul Coutts @ Apr 19 2008, 11:14 PM) *
and WHO can deny music so chilled, and so happy? It's awesome stuff, imho.



Oddly enough, thats why i cant get into Reggae, its TOO happy. laugh.gif

I dont know, It sounds weird, but to me, Theres a difference between Happy Music and music that makes you happy smile.gif

Posted by: Chiruki Apr 20 2008, 02:06 PM

Rap Is Poetry made with a music background smile.gif ..

Posted by: at lights end Apr 20 2008, 02:25 PM

i think some rap is alright, a lot of new rappers are awful though.
i love these guys though, rap metal that works a lot better than limp bizcit.

Stuck Mojo
http://www.myspace.com/stuckinthemojo

QUOTE (Chiruki @ Apr 20 2008, 01:06 PM) *
Rap Is Poetry made with a music background smile.gif ..


not many shakespeares around anymore.

i love kris' hip hop, sounds pretty cool in norweigan.

Posted by: rokchik Apr 21 2008, 01:44 AM

QUOTE (ballistic31 @ Apr 20 2008, 01:19 AM) *
well all i know is this rap sells big time lol ......I stand to say most woman,, chicks, girls , or however you want to say it,, give them a handfull of cds 1 metal a rap cd a rock cd and a country.......with in a week look what cds they have in there changers in the car ........most likely the rap and the country,,main reason they can dance to it lol ..That and they love pimped out rides.....and i have yet to hear Srv or slayer blareing out of anyone of them lol....It more like start an eathquake with that kicked up bass .......and light up the road with nitros.....

I think as far as opra..Its way to hard to understand what they are singing. in a way its kind of like rap with a dude or woman with some killer pipes......screaming at the top of there lungs like a death metal singer..But allways make for killer songs in movies right before someone gets murdered. lol ...As far and good old Kurt cobain he had to play a gig in heaven..he found a way to get there but he didnt think it out very well,,,,,,,cause once he got there he was like damit smooth move how the hell and i going to get back ...........I thought everybody new that lol


When I saw this thread and started reading through, I realized that Kris was trying to ignite some useful debate on the "is rap actually music?" and "does Cobain deserve the credit?" arguments. There are some great discussions here giving reasons for both sides of each argument. When it comes to music people are very passionate about what they like and what they don't so it's interesting to read the different points of view. Some may be more insightful then others but for the most part all the arguments are sound. Then I read the above post.....

I normally try to take everything with a grain of salt, but ballistic31 your generalization of women is the most ignorant thing I ever read. I'm not gonna speak for all the women here at GMC, as I would never presume that their views are the same as mine but I find your comments pretty offensive. How is this an argument for "is rap actually music" Are you trying to say that because women like it, it can't be music? And by saying that are you also implying that women cannot appreciate music unless we can dance to it? Cause that is how I took your comments.

You may have stated it as "Most women" but dude, I can assure you that this generalization is as narrow minded as the generalization that metal is just a means to promote satan worship and violence. (sorry metal fans needed a reference smile.gif I don't agree with that generalization either ) I pride myself on the fact that I enjoy many types of music. I feel that to limit myself to only one genre I may miss out on something I may truly enjoy. My cd collection has everything from Mozart to Eminem, The Three Tenors to SLAYER!!!!!!!! On any given day you can look in my truck and find a vast array of music and unless it's Johnny Cash you will not find a country cd among them. I play my music loud, but to quote KISS, I love it loud. Currently in my cd changer there is Flogging Molly, The Tragically Hip, Children of Bodom, Rob Zombie and The Phantom of the Opera soundtrack. Last time I checked Children of Bodom wasn't really made to dance too.

As for the 'pimped out ride' comment and your view on Opera and Cobain, well I'm not even going to dignify them with a discussion. Not even sure if I should have even dignified your post with a reply. I apologize for my brashness but my blood is pretty boiled right now. ballastic31 I don't want to attack you, and your opinion is your opinion, but your comments did put me on the defensive pretty quick.

rok

Posted by: Smikey2006 Apr 21 2008, 02:30 AM

Opera is awsome, hard to understand.. usually because its in different langauges regardless of where it is being preformed.. Opera is cool because other than being songs they are telling a story, and opera is not only a "concert" but a play as well.. knowing the story really helps you enjoy opera. As for rap music.. i agree with comments that regard it in a "fabrication state" when music is being exploited it goes down hill, becomes main stream, blah blah blah.. there is rap music that is indeed "poetry to a beat" This is good, i don't mind this, eminem did a good job, the streets.. i don't know too many others.. kurt was w/e

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Apr 21 2008, 10:01 AM

I have listened to rap and grunge back in grade school/high school when it was decent music. Today rap does not exist in its original and pure form. The same goes for grunge - no differences between these two.

Another thing that is the same is the effect these two genres had on further development of music as we know it today, along side other genres.

Posted by: Fsgdjv Apr 21 2008, 04:33 PM

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Apr 21 2008, 11:01 AM) *
I have listened to rap and grunge back in grade school/high school when it was decent music. Today rap does not exist in its original and pure form. The same goes for grunge - no differences between these two.

Another thing that is the same is the effect these two genres had on further development of music as we know it today, along side other genres.


Are you saying that because youy heard all of todays rap or because you heard a few songs on the radio?

I'm sorry, but I get extremely annoyed by people who make statements like that with no backing. There is ALWAYS some good artist in a genre, wether you like it or not. I always get annoyed with rap bashing because of this, even though I barely listen to it at all.

Posted by: Duncan Apr 21 2008, 04:42 PM

QUOTE (Arrival @ Nov 6 2007, 06:20 AM) *
The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.


Is that any different to a drummer from a band sitting in front of his drum kit making up a beat? Both are being creative so I don't see the problem.

There is a lot of bad rap and hip hop out there and it is all contained within music channels and the charts. There is also though a lot of good rap and hip-hop. You only have to look so far as Wu-Tang Clan/NaS/House of Pain/El-P to see this.

Posted by: Nathan333 Apr 21 2008, 07:51 PM

I think that it is wrong to generalize one whole genre of music. Every genre has it's flaws and it's good points. As for me, I like a lot of rap music. On the other hand I don't really understand classical/opera music. I mean, most of the songs seem to be covers that have already been covered and operas go on for hours. blink.gif Can anyone help me understand it?

BTW I don't mean to sound offensive or anything

Posted by: Gus Apr 21 2008, 10:46 PM

Hi, Kris, you should add some of the last post of the other topic in the first here...
I was a little bit confused... wacko.gif

But, than coming to the topic.
1) Rap is music. I know 3-4 genres that I would criticize before criticizing it. (Check this for instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSZA8je1Goc )
2) "Can't play" is a strong word. But Kurt Cobain can not be called an awesome guitarist. He is an average guitarist. But that doesn't mean he is not an excellent composer. I think the confusion comes from people mixing these 2 things.
In my humble view, Kurt Cobain beats Steve Vai as composer, meaning I hear Nirvana's songs almost every day while the same is not true for Vai's. But of course the converse is the true if you compare them as guitarists.

Posted by: VinceG Apr 22 2008, 11:23 AM

I think this whole thing with rap not being music is just to get a lot of musicians, especially guitarist, to be up in there high horse, and preach on there own skill.

I think thats mainly the reason why I stay away from topics like this, especially in a guitar based forum.

I listen to rap as much as I listen to Metal. It takes as much talent to create a hip hop song as it is to come up with a lick on a guitar. Just because it is processed on a computer, or maybe a beat sample, it doesn't make it any less of a music than what your precious wooden instrument can do.

Music is not always about playing or learning an instrument. If it was, then maybe we shouldn't call this guy a http://youtube.com/watch?v=O4No-_RSj64.

Posted by: The Uncreator Apr 22 2008, 11:28 AM

Rap is always gonna be a form of music, Whether people like it or not. Might as well listen to it and like it, or not. I dont see why we have to constantly justify why it isnt music, or takes no talent, Or why it is music, and takes loads of talent.

Opinions, Opinions, Opinions ..... Sometimes they just suck laugh.gif

Posted by: JensN Apr 23 2008, 09:59 AM

An intressting discussion, with lots of sensible arguments. smile.gif

I’ve given this some thoughts in the past since I’ve always been listening to a lot of different types of music and been wondering why people, and especially some musicians I’ve known over the years, choose to limit there musical sources of inspiration. For me it’s never been about genre. The music has to touch me in one way or another, be it Hip hop, rock, Mozart or what not. It’s irrelevant IMHO.

I agree with what some of you already have said, in that I believe music is what someone creates in their heads (and hopefully souls).
Guitar, piano, computers or what you choose to use to realize that music is only a choice of tools and perhaps a palette of colours you use to make music the way you want. A computer is just one way to do that.
I mean, how many here at GMC can type a document in Word? All of us I bet. wink.gif
However, how many of us would be able to write a really great piece of literature?

Here's a couple of Hip Hop songs I realy like, maybe they can inspire someone here as well?

Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bvig4SAZBEs

Guru (Jazzmatazz) Feat Ronny Jordan on guitar.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ts7WZux4e7w&feature=related

And if you liked Ronny Jordans giutar playing I higly recommend this as well:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YGMauW4AUKA

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