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Posted by: AK Rich Oct 29 2016, 05:32 PM

A simple question poll.

Should political topic discussions be disallowed in the GMC forum?

Edit: That first yes vote is mine. I just don't think that this is the place to discuss these things and there are plenty of other forums on the web that are designed specifically for political discussions.
Discussing politics does nothing to help anyone excel at playing guitar so why do we need those types of discussions here?

Posted by: klasaine Oct 29 2016, 05:42 PM

I'm not 'voting' in this poll but I will say this ...

When they are started with the intention to be provocative and inflammatory, then yes.

*Love ya crsn but man you like to stir the shit.

Posted by: AK Rich Oct 29 2016, 05:49 PM

Thanks for weighing in, Ken. Good point, man.

Posted by: Mertay Oct 29 2016, 06:31 PM

Until the election topics we didn't have any problems that I remember of...

The first days I joined here made a topic on Gezi protests in Turkey, the support was very nice. Also 3-4 months ago about the coup just to note I was still alive

Many things can happen around the world and its nice to get opinions from unbiased friends, thats why I'm ok with political topics.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Oct 29 2016, 07:06 PM

I'm for posting a poll WITH every "Political" post with a simple, is this post appropriate for GMC YES/NO. Simple eh? If it gets some NO votes, the admins can just get rid of it as not appropriate for GMC.


If it's some inflammatory, poorly sourced, clearly biased, youtube video, fringe blog repost, twitter rantish thing, etc. (Trying as hard as I can to avoid naming names here as that would be a "PERSONAL ATTACK" which we try to avoid here @ GMC) then it probably has NO PLACE here @ GMC where we try to encourage an atmosphere of fellowship and NOT something adversarial.

Todd

Posted by: Phil66 Oct 29 2016, 09:19 PM

Personally I don't think any legal subject should be banned from GMC. Yes there are other forums that are dedicated to any subject but it's good to have healthy debate amongst friends.

The only thing that should be banned is personal attacks, name calling etc.

The right to swing your fists, stops where the other person's nose begins!

Rich, the Chill Out Zone is an off topic board

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Oct 29 2016, 10:13 PM

I think civilized discussions about touchy topics does nothing but strengthen our community!

I also think that many tragedies of the past would have been avoided if there had been an open discussion around them.

Posted by: Phil66 Oct 29 2016, 11:06 PM

Yeah, as i said, healthy debate is good, you just have to be pragmatic. I never get involved in politics. I know what I want and why but, I don't need to argue about it.

Phil

Posted by: Rammikin Oct 30 2016, 12:29 AM

Yeah, we can dance around it and pretend the issue is whether political threads should be allowed, but, just like Ken says, what you've described is really the issue here. I'd like to be able to say "hey if you don't like a thread, ignore it". But the fact is this forum is only as good as the posts members put here. The threads that start with a random inflammatory youtube video can, and do, change this forum into an ugly place that is not fun to visit. My heart sinks when I visit GMC and see a thread like that at the top of the recent posts list. I know it has changed my perception of GMC for the worse.

Posted by: yoncopin Oct 30 2016, 02:10 AM

This is exactly how I feel about it too, you couldn't have worded it better Rammikin. It mostly just bums me out, I don't visit GMC to read that junk.

Posted by: jstcrsn Oct 30 2016, 10:06 PM

If you don't stir it , it stinks for all that walk by. If you do stir it, it turns into wonderful fertilized topsoil ready to grow something

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Oct 30 2016, 10:19 PM

@ Rammikin & yoncopin

But doesn't it offer you comfort that people you like and trust, get to respond to these posts?

The reason these strange videos appear even in our little corner of the web - is because the opinions are real and exist. As much as I wish it weren't so - I am at least very happy we get to discuss them here in the open.

Again: many historical tragedies could have been avoided if people got to vent their opinions. I feel very proud to have community that can do this and hopefully make a change for the better.

Posted by: Rammikin Oct 30 2016, 10:46 PM

Kris, you're asking us what we think of trolling . Trust me, if there is one thing to be learned from the internet, it's this: trolling is a bad thing on a forum .

Posted by: yoncopin Oct 30 2016, 11:10 PM

Not really, but again I think Rammikin hit it on the head, I kinda wish people just wouldn't feed the trolls. I don't think we're having a very high level debate here. I didn't, and won't be, voting in the poll, and I'm not being dismissive of anyone's opinion or their right to their point of view. I just don't enjoy the toxicity and I don't think it's elevating discussion at GMC. I really try to only be positive when posting online, it is all attributable in the end. Hopefully it will all just go away on it's own in a week when the election is over.

Posted by: GeneT95 Oct 31 2016, 12:16 AM

I voted 'No'

I don't post much. I don't have time. I don't read those posts. I find them rarely useful even if mildly entertaining if I am in the mood, which I rarely am. But, even if I had time I wouldn't be reading them instead of trying to increase my guitar knowledge.

Although, I did think of and did check if Mertay posted after subacute events in the past. Not that we're friends necessarily or have conversed before. But he is a GMC brother and I've travelled a lot and check where people are from to see if I've ever been there. So I thought of him during recent events.

That being said. I don't think banning a particular subject is useful. Banning a particular person who treats others poorly during a discussion or continually posts banal inflammatory diatribe may be. Discussion is broadening even if it rarely changes entrenched narrowed minds. Community is doomed if we can not discuss esp subjects with intrinsically high emotion.

I don't partake. Nor is it required. If you've a stout heart, a good character, an open mind, and a calmness to understand, then perhaps entertaining such subjects may be broadening. If you become wounded easily and have a myopic gaze then perhaps its best to stick to the guitar related posts.

I leave the policing to the moderators and site admins. I voted not because I think it matters or influences those in control, but because I like clicking buttons and, given my temperament, is the only voting I'll be doing this fall.

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Oct 31 2016, 08:33 AM

I will not vote because I would like to have the option "give one more chance before political topics to be disallowed".

People should express freely their opinions but I'm not agree when people cross the line and transform a peaceful place in a boxing ring. I like to believe that what's happened in that thread (I really not liked what I saw) was just an isolated case. We all have different points of view but forcing the rest to see things in the same way as we do, it's not a good idea.

I don't know if should be disallowed political topics. Most people can express their opinions in a normal way without personal attacks. I think would be necessary more strictly rules for this kind of situations. An obvious personal attack should be punished immediately in a more drastic way. Also if a topic becomes "dangerous" that thread should be closed before people to cross the line. Some topics are sensible and sometimes even if you don't have in mind to offend someone, it's possible to slip some words which are not ok. It's important to be careful how you use these words because sometimes depend of the context where you put them
Of course if a new political topic will bring the same hostile atmosphere, I would really like these topics to be disallowed from GMC ( even without asking the students their opinion about it).

Posted by: bleez Oct 31 2016, 09:40 AM

Although I tend not to touch political threads with a bargepole, I voted 'no'. I would not like to see any topic get outright disallowed here. I understand people can get wound up about certain things and feel strongly about subjects but thats fine in my book As long as it stays respectful.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Oct 31 2016, 12:00 PM

I have "extreme" political views rooted in my extensive political and historical research. I can't stand political correctness and censorship. Because of this I try to avoid posting anything politics-related to avoid unnecessary "flame war" "bad feelings" etc... I think that banning those discussion would be even more harmful than allowing them.

Having said that I also don't like the current situation when moderators can intervene in Chill out forum in these discussions. I would rather have a "hyde park" part of the forum where everything is allowed. What was most annoying in the current Hilary/Trump discussion for me, was the whole "what is a personal attack and what isn't" discussion. If I am talking with a supporter of X and say "ya know most of X supporters are uneducated, poor, narrowminded people" it is obvious that the person will be offended even if in theory it is not a personal attack. Really I couldn't believe mature people discuss such things from that perspective...

Anyway sorry for my rant, I didn't vote any option, as I don't think the problem is discussing politics...

Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 1 2016, 04:10 AM

so now we get to start controlling what can and can't be said , I just don't know how to respond to that statement . On the one hand it sound nice and fuzzy that we shouldn't have anything inflammatory , on the other , it sounds a lot like thought police (i.e, thats how dictators start )

There is no way to have a contrary statement that isn't inflammatory to someone .You just somehow think what you say is always correct , but remember the issues are pretty much evenly divided so no matter what your stance , you will have a vast amount of opposition

In general I have always been lumped in with the uneducated inflammatory group and it does not hurt my feelings at all.
But lets look at reality . I was told I was an ideologue for thinking or being afraid of a terrorist attack in the us and low and behold( in the middle of our discussion) we have a night club attack which kills many people .
I then have an" inflammatory" post asking when is enough evidence enough, the thread gets shut down while I was out of town but as I get back in town I learn The FBI reopens its case with Hillary . HUH

and this is why I think these topics should be allowed , when you see differing opinions then yours proven right or wrong , we all need to be willing to look at our selves and honestly say "maybe I had it wrong" . But when all we get is what we want to hear
How will we ever grow!

Posted by: fkalich Nov 1 2016, 06:41 AM

Why is it immature to state facts? Are we supposed to ignore the implications of this? And I think myself and others made it clear that we were talking about averages, medians, bell curves, not about individuals with the statistics. And averages, medians, bell curves are what matters, not individual data points. Hell I'm old, and I don't feel offended by the second chart.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Nov 1 2016, 10:10 AM

I don't think we even need to go that far, tbh T-Master. I think if a thread is inappropriate for whatever reason or a thread deteriorates into one, then it'll just get closed down naturally anyway.

Thing is, nobody has to read or participate in a particular thread if it's political or they're uninterested. If it's a thread that is so obviously offensive then it would get closed down anyway but if we preface every discussion which may or may not present views that may be contrasting to what somebody believes with a 'is this ok or not?' then we're treading on eggshells all the time.

It's a hard balance between showing respect in this age and pandering to 'generation snowflake' as they're coming to be known as

I think a lot of it comes down to intent. If you post something, knowing deep inside, that your reasons for doing so is to rile people and get some fireworks then you reap what you sow. If you post something with the intent of genuinely being interested in other people's views, which may be different to you own, and also being open to the idea that you might learn something new and thus alter your beliefs, then that's different. Those threads will naturally carry a different tone.



And I also don't feel offended by the modern assumption that the younger (including college / uni educated) groups (taken to be synonymous with 'enlightened') are expected and 'supposed' to side with leftist leaning politics.

I'm outside the age group of what would classed as a millennial but most of my generation (if social media is to be believed) automatically fawn towards the left and whatever hot social justice topic is in the news. By rights, I should be the same. I'm not. I'm glad of that.

I don't subscribe to this fallacy that the left have the monopoly on morality. We all have morals, we just might hold certain moral traits higher than others. The left seem to value the idea of equality above all else. Stick it to the 'man', whoever that might be. The right seem to value things like responsibility, accountability.

All of those moral values are worthy, surely? But if it comes down to being realistic, the idea of equality is something that sounds wonderful when you're 18 and trying to find out who you are. As you get older you realise that so many of the world's ills like unplanned pregnancy, unwanted children, broken homes, unemployment are increased due to people absolutely refusing to take responsibility for their own actions.

Now I don't know what you think is more important.. the idea that everyone gets treated like they're their own special snowflake? Or people stop making excuses and get on with life like the rest of us have to. That's responsibility and I'm sorry but that's where I think the right have it... err.. right

Oh and as for Trump v Clinton? I don't think you guys have ever had a worse choice. Trump is an arrogant sumbitch and like Ken said, POTUS isn't exactly an entry level job. However, there's no getting away from the fact that Clinton is a criminal and a liar.

Trump is the sort of guy who you know would happily shaft you on a deal. Clinton is the sort of person who'd easily order your untimely death. Trump may be narcissistic but if it's sociopathic you're looking for, Hillary's far more insidious. She's more ruthless than Trump. Ironically that may be what you need in the POTUS but is it the kind of person you'd want at the top? It's just a question of which liar you want. Same choice we get every few years

I know this has gone OT but I said nothing in any of the other political threads so those are my thoughts and I'll leave it and stick with the guitar and foods threads DONUTS, anyone?

Posted by: Mertay Nov 1 2016, 10:58 AM

Agreed, although its not different in any other countrys (I never voted for someone truly believing in him/her) from a far perspective these candidates and their "show" is spiritually poisoning Americans.

Only one more week and then things will be as usual, no one should forget about that before posting something cause its not worth hurt/insulting anyone through their opinions.

Posted by: AK Rich Nov 1 2016, 03:58 PM

So, what is your point in stating these "facts" and what "implications" are you referring to? If there is no point, then why bring it up?

Posted by: klasaine Nov 1 2016, 08:16 PM

As per my initial comment in this thread, I think that posting - in a guitar lessons forum - with the intent to provoke, is pretty unnecessary here.

I know it's the 'chill out' section. But 1) this isn't very chill (when it gets political) and 2) again, it's a guitar forum. Shouldn't the chill out section (of a guitar forum) be more about concerts, food, pictures of your guitars, vacations and your dogs, etc. I don't know, it just seems to me that there are SO MANY other venues for the political stuff - ?

Posted by: Rammikin Nov 1 2016, 08:51 PM

^ This ^

If you look at the last couple of troll threads in the chillout section, one ended up with a member suspension and the other was locked. What more evidence does anyone need that those threads are harmful to the forum?

Posted by: klasaine Nov 2 2016, 12:42 AM

Though I do appreciate that it is no doubt amusing for the Europeans to watch us Americans make asses of ourselves.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 2 2016, 07:06 AM

The implication is that among Trump supporters average historical illiteracy must be low. In my experience those who do not at least pursue higher education also do not independently read the books that would substitute for that. The corollary to that is a person's grasp of political realities is limited by their level of historical literacy.

I don't think most people, those who even hold Trump in contempt, fully grasp what a danger he is to all of us. Not just to the US, to the entire world. The American Constitution established a head of state with tremendous power, much more power and authority than you find in parliamentary forms of government. How anyone can think of Clinton, who would be pretty predictable as President, just much like Obama, how anyone can think that the narcissistic psychopath is not infinitely more dangerous for the world, it just blows me away.

For 44 presidencies was have had elections where qualified candidates fought, often bitterly fought. But in all instances they were qualified contestants. Perhaps other than with Warren G. Harding. However nothing much was happening then for him to screw up. Only in this modern bizarre Reality TV world do we now have a candidate running who is absolutely unqualified to hold the office, who has no other motivation but to pursue his own personal aggrandizement, who would do anything, say anything, take any position and reverse it the next day if necessary, to accomplish what he desires for himself, to be the American "silver backed gorilla".

I am mortified that so many Americans have fallen for this, the man has no principles whatever, other than his lust for power, fame, and wealth. If he is elected, they will soon enough realize their error, just as those who supported the invasion of Iraq had to if they were honest enough to admit that they supported Bush's war. But we will pay a hell of a bigger price tag if Trump is elected than the one George W. Bush passed on to us.

For this same perspective on Trump from a historian who unlike myself *is* renowned and well known, look and listen to the segment of Ken Burns speech at Stanford University concerning Trump, and/or interviews with him after that speech.

Posted by: AK Rich Nov 3 2016, 02:41 PM

Interesting. I think Trump supporters are indeed looking at history in making their decision. Recent history tells them we are on the wrong path. But we can also look at history to see what happens when a member of a crime family (Mugabe etc.)is the leader of a country when considering Clinton. And Trump supporters don't want our Gov to do business in a way that is similar to the mafia.

I am not sure how a documentary filmmaker with a Bachelors Degree in the Arts in film study and design qualifies as a Renown Historian (maybe I missed something in his bio) but I watched the speech anyway. What was interesting to me was that I could insert the name Obama in place of Trump in many of the things he said in that speech, narcissistic, wannabe dictator, etc.

Did you see Peter Thiel's speech to the National Press Club recently where he spoke of why people support Trump? Peter Thiel attended Stanford and has a BA in Philosophy.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 5 2016, 05:13 AM

I have to agree as well I vote for a KILL OR KEEP poll required above any political related post. That way, we can give it the old "THREE STRIKES AND YOUR OUT". Three folks vote NOPE for any reason they like and the thread locks and deletes. How about that?

It would keep the thread from becoming obnoxious and if it's too late, it would at least delete it so as to keep it from being obnoxious to future readers? I'm not for censorship as such, but I'm all for NOT being obnoxious in a forum that should be positive and about mostly guitar

P.S. I do agree with Peter Thiel on one thing, FREE COLLEGE TUITION (We have thousands of M1 Battle Tanks rusting in the california dessert, let's stop pouring money in tanks the Army says it doesn't need and educate our young people instead)
Todd

Great post and I can't believe I somehow missed it!!! I Did come up with a second version, a "Three Strikes and your out" sort of thing (works for baseball, why not politics? )
Just to give folks the chance to shut down a thread pro actively before management has to step in and make the call. Sort of self policing ourselves as it were. Also, everything written on GMC is searchable on google so hopefully, searches reveal GMC to be what I hope it to be, a great place for folks to come together and discuss, in civil terms, how they think/feel about any subject on earth without malice and or name calling. If we want malice/name calling, we can go to sevenstring.org

Todd




I hate to say it, but yes. You are 100 percent correct. Two troll (granted that's a perceptual/subjective term, but yes, I'm using it too, and yes, I think it applies) threads both had bad endings. Back to my self policing idea

Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 5 2016, 05:19 PM

Interesting you view it as a troll thread . It is a very valid and important question and I will ask it of you, is there anything that clinton could do that would make you wonder , a line in the sand if you will. If there is no line she could cross (that would make you wonder ) why then would you think it would be logical for me to want to work " across the aisle " with someone with that mindset ? . If any means is worth your end , does that set well with you.

As far as trolling goes, to that thread . the responses it received ( not naming names so it won't be personal ) was not a response to a very valid question , but a unproven rhetoric slamming the other side.
THAT IS TROLLING . and that is the reason Kris to shutting it down , is cause everyone started trolling and not answering the thread

I don't care about threads getting off subject or trolling as long as it is truth
Just cause it is of a different opinion than yours , that does not make it trolling

as far as me getting suspended , I was responding to attitudes of people constantly demeaning a large part of the people of this nation and then turning around and talking about how virtuous and accepting they are. I was pissed and pressed submit while I was angry . I can admit my wrong doing and take make punishment (

), but I think you might be stretching as to why it got shut down

[quote name='Todd Simpson' date='Nov 5 2016, 05:13 AM' post='740359']
I have to agree as well I vote for a KILL OR KEEP poll required above any political related post. That way, we can give it the old "THREE STRIKES AND YOUR OUT". Three folks vote NOPE for any reason they like and the thread locks and deletes. How about that?


Have you really thought this idea thru ?

Posted by: jstcrsn Nov 5 2016, 05:51 PM

You could easily Replace Trump With Hillary , of course you would have to add, voted for Iraq, under FB I investigation for mishandling classified documents, and dead ambassador after said ambassador had hundreds of requests for extra security, off course thats not to mention wikileaks, DMC tampering , clinton foundation under pay to play FBI investigations , Humas 650,000 emails found on wieners computer when she was suppose to have turned over all to FBI, The 33,000 Deleated emails we are suppose to trust her about , Bill Clinton meeting with the AG that would indict Hillary or the 650,000$ the wife( of the FBI agent investigating Hillary ) recieved from the clintons , being fed Debate questions , ALL VERIFIABLE ,but I digress
or
The price tag 20 trillion dollars in debt Obama will leave with( are kids will have to pay for)Bushand every president before him left us with 8-9 trillion

Posted by: AK Rich Nov 5 2016, 05:58 PM

I just wanted to add another speech that illustrates some reasons why conservatives support Trump. It's not in any way a speech supporting Trump but it illustrates the true reasons why conservatives are supporting him. And here is a hint. It has nothing to do with racism, bigotry or any kind of ethnic phobia. Instead, it has everything to do with restoring the form of government that the framers of the Constitution envisioned.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 9 2016, 04:29 AM

I'm watching the CNN/FOX/MSNBC/BBC AMERICAN coverage of the election and it seems journalists are finally figuring out that "Polling Data" has been flat out wrong from day 1 of this race. As of this posting, TRUMP IS WINNING in terms of Electoral College votes. Wow. Never thought I'd see the day. But here we are. As a result

*The Stock Market Futures are down 500 points for the dow before the opening bell
*The Peso is taking a nose dive
*The Price of Gold is spiking up
*The reserve currence (U.S. Dollar) futures are down

In short, the financial markets are quaking in their boots over this. Nobody had good intel it seems, at any of the major investement firms, or broadcasting outlets, etc. Wow did they miss it bad from day one. They all underestimated something CRSN mentioned. ANGER.

Americans are ANGRY, and most of them don't live in Washington D.C., or New York city. The vast swath of Middle America does not trust politicians at all anymore. Nor the media proper. Folks get their info from their own echo chambers on social media. This is the X FACTOR that didn't get added to the models being used IMHO.

Egad.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 9 2016, 07:25 AM

It was obvious that the pools as always are just leftist lies. It has been like this in almost every western country for the last 20 years. Obviously most of the "free media" is also just someones property and works to further his owners agenda. Anyway lets wait for the official statement who won.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Nov 9 2016, 08:31 AM

HILARY JUST CONCEDED via phone. It's confirmed. Egad. TRUMP is our next President. Nuclear war to be scheduled shortly

Posted by: AK Rich Nov 9 2016, 09:13 AM

The Democrats, The Establishment Elite, and the vast majority of the media just got their asses handed to them and karma is in full effect tonight in the USA.
And ironically, California didn't even matter.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Nov 9 2016, 09:22 AM

Exactly. And the anger exists because they're just not getting listened to. If people are marginalised as bigoted, racists, stupid for long enough the politicians and media shouldn't be surprised when a Brexit or a Trump win happens. It doesn't matter if one doesn't agree with it, but it really is unbelievable that so many people pretend they can't understand why it happens.

Posted by: fzalfa Nov 9 2016, 09:26 AM

viewed from here, Clinton 'll surely push the nuke button, Trump seem to be more centered about america than the rest of the world.

Cheers

Laurent

Posted by: Wyverex Nov 9 2016, 09:29 AM

That was my impression as well so far, but time will tell, I guess. It's definitely going to be interesting

Posted by: Mertay Nov 9 2016, 01:26 PM

GMC survived the elections! I'm glad its finally over

Posted by: GeneT95 Nov 9 2016, 01:30 PM

I agree with Mertay. Now back to that darn picking study.....

Posted by: fzalfa Nov 9 2016, 01:58 PM

hooooo yeah !!!!

Cheers

Laurent

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 9 2016, 02:24 PM

My turn to post a youtube video. This one is biased, guaranteed

Posted by: klasaine Nov 9 2016, 03:06 PM

He won fair and square.
Congratulations to the next U.S. president, Mr. Donald Trump.

Posted by: Ben Higgins Nov 9 2016, 03:19 PM

Great playing there, Mr D!

Posted by: Monica Gheorghevici Nov 9 2016, 03:42 PM

That's why it's cool to be a musician. You can express more through notes than using a thousand words (and guess what....you can't create conflicts )

Awesome playing Kris!!

Posted by: AK Rich Nov 9 2016, 05:45 PM

Way to step up and be a man Mr. Lasaine. You have had, and continue to have my respect sir.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 9 2016, 08:57 PM

Thanks Ben and Monica, I needed to channel the shock. Talk about instant inspriation!

Posted by: fkalich Nov 9 2016, 09:27 PM

Congratulations Adolf on your appointment to the Chancellorship. Sorry that I am 83 years late on this.





I liked your playing, it was nice.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Nov 9 2016, 10:01 PM

The "ad hitlerum" argument has been launched!

Posted by: Rammikin Nov 9 2016, 10:56 PM

The number of people I've seen openly sobbing today is like nothing I've ever seen in my lifetime. Everyone is feeling strong emotions right now, but sharing anger is not helpful to anyone at this time. Least of all yourself. You may not like the victor, but there's a higher ideal here that deserves our attention: respect the process and the outcome of that process. That's something that can unify us today, and unification is sorely needed right now.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 10 2016, 02:36 AM

"Donald Trump didn't run to unify the country. That was the last thing he did. The country did not vote to be unified. This was not like a unity and all Americans coming together to be one common people with a vision. This was, there are some people that are gonna do this, and other people do that. It is very clear what we voted for. He did not mince words. And I cannot emphasize that enough. This is not -- he was not a unity candidate. It wasn't what he ran on. He didn't run on a typical Republican agenda."

We are not going to be a unified nation, Trump will continue to be a divisive leader, his Presidency will be no different than his political campaign. I would say that David McCullough is the best known American historian to the public. Here is a 3 minute video with his thoughts of what are the qualities by which a President is measured. Yes is it a video, but when I post a video it is by a well known and scholarly individual, renowned among the general public, not some obscure Internet wacko.

Posted by: Stenchovdeth Nov 10 2016, 11:20 AM

Please close and delete this thread.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 10 2016, 12:12 PM

Yeah no real need to go there again, the comparison has been discussed already.

I am closing this thread now. Who wants to start some new - bridge building - topics on our forum?




thanks!