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Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 14 2015, 09:30 AM

When you have found that 'perfect' tone, you will experience a dramatic improvement in the musicality of your lines. Therefore, working on your sound is just as important as practicing anything else.

Getting a good tone can be a little tricky, as there are many things to consider. In order of priority:

1 Does your tone fit the mix? A common mistake is for people to dial in a tone that sounds big/cool on its own. However “big” often means bass heavy - and impossible to fit in a mix.

2 Does your sound fit the backing track? A backing track with cutting rhythm guitars will often need a treble-rich lead sound, in order for the lead to be heard without raising its volume way above everything else. The opposite is also true: If you are playing over a backing track without any distorted rhythm guitars, the patch you used for metal probably won’t work. You need something smoother with less treble.

3 Does the sound fit your playing style? Perhaps you need compression and distortion for your legato lines to sound good? Or maybe the opposite is true: you need something dynamic to enable more expressive phrasing. Or maybe you need both?

NB - note the order of priority above. There is no point in starting with a bombastic sound that makes your playing sound larger than life, if it does not fit the track you are working with. Because what sounds amazing when soloed, will often sound wrong ‘in the mix’.


Let’s get rolling!

For this workshop I have chosen a backing track from http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Soul-Guitar-Lesson/, which I personally have had a lot of fun with:



 Soul___RnB_Blues_backing_track_in_B_minor.mp3 ( 1.76MB ) : 649


You can use B minor pentatonic (or B minor scale / D major scale / D major pentatonic)

When tweaking your sound I suggest you start without any time based effects (=reverb and delay). Make sure you can be heard without needing to raise your volume way above the backing track.

If this gives you problems, you either have a bass heavy tone - or - you need to add more treble/presence.

When you have dialed in a sound that allows you to be heard while still on the same level as the other instruments on the backing track, you can start experimenting.

For a liquid lead sound - many people like to have something in front of the amp, such as an overdrive or booster. This will affect the attack part of your sound and can also change the EQ.

Without adding any times based effects (reverb/delay) you will never get pro results. A common mistake here is to mix these effects too loud. Listen to my example video above, can you hear any reverb/delay? Yet there are three different stereo delays and two different reverbs.

I don’t recommend you to start with that many, but it goes to show how much is happening behind the scene. The good stuff is often the subtle effects which you don’t think about. Therefore I recommend you to tweak your tone on a daily basis, doing small adjustments here and there to get a feel for how they impact on your sound, in a mix. Maybe 10 minutes before starting your practice/playing session.

A good starting point when tweaking delay/reverb, is to find a setting you like - and then back it off to the point that you can’t really hear it anymore. Then try turning it off - can you hear the difference now? If so, you should start understanding what subtle tweaking means.


-----

Record yourself playing over the backing track and share the result with us, together we'll discuss how to optimise your sound!

* We’ll be running this workshop throughout April.
* When uploading a sample of your sound, let us know what equipment you are using and what effects you have added (if any)
* We should all record over the same backing track, this way the advice given will be useful for everybody.

Since everyone has different gear and experience I am hoping we’ll be able to help each other out. I know there are some very skilled tone tweakers among you guys - I have been blown away by the tones I have been hearing in the collabs.

P.S. Thanks http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=54121 for suggesting this killer workshop idea!

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 15 2015, 12:42 PM

Great idea Kris! I'm up for this, especially after some of the feedback I've had from past Collabs!!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 15 2015, 12:56 PM

Excellent Jones, will you be using a tube amp?

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 15 2015, 01:32 PM

Unfortunately not to start with as I'm not geared up to record that way. I need to get an SM57 or similar, I don't have any decent Mics here. Will get one as soon as I can though!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 15 2015, 02:09 PM

Ok no problem software amps are just as handy and powerful - and probably even more flexible.

Posted by: Mertay Apr 15 2015, 02:39 PM

Nice advice and a very useful topic, will follow

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 15 2015, 03:20 PM

I have quite a few S/ware ones to choose from too!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 15 2015, 04:06 PM

Great - which ones?

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 15 2015, 05:41 PM

I have Guitar Rig 4, The early Amplion release, a lot of the Nick Crow and Le Poulin ones but the main one I use is the Waves GTR which has the Neal Citron and Paul Reed Smith Amps as well as their own!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 15 2015, 08:44 PM

Cool, great tones in both videos.

The point with this workshop is to start thinking in terms of how the guitar tone works in the mix, and pretty much any software will work (including Poulin's awesome free plugins).

Once we have a first take we can start commenting and tweaking together!

Posted by: Tom51 Apr 16 2015, 07:39 AM

Hi Kris - that is really a great workshop idea as I always feel I unhappy about my sound. As a beginner I do not really know where to start first. So I will probably only follow this topic and learn from it. Thanks Tom.

Posted by: bleez Apr 16 2015, 08:23 AM

hey Kris, would it be best to begin with a really basic tone or should we use one of our tones we think is best and then get advice on how to refine it?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 16 2015, 08:43 AM

Actually I think either will work, we just need a starting point so we can start discussing.

And we can always "restart" with a fresh sound/patch if we reach a dead end.

Posted by: mad Apr 16 2015, 09:08 AM

Great idea! I'll give this one a try, too!

Posted by: Daeron Apr 16 2015, 09:13 AM

That's a nice thread ! At the moment, I don't have a good equipment to record the sound of my amp and pedals but I should have a sound card and micro in the next weeks.

I'll read this thread with interest.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 16 2015, 10:52 AM

I shall get something done and posted in the next couple of days!

Posted by: HiimAlex Apr 16 2015, 07:22 PM

Hey!
So I managed to record a take even if my guitar playing is far from perfect.
I used Fender MiM Strat -> Digitech Gnx2 -> Orange Micro Terror -> Orange 1x8 cab
On the Digitech Gnx2 I was modelling a 65' Fender Twin Reverb through a 2x12 and Matchless DC30 through a 4x12.
I warp these amps together.
The effects I used on this take was Reverb, Chorus and a Noise Gate.



All feedback is appreciated
Alex

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 16 2015, 08:31 PM

Very nice Alex - no problem at all hearing you "in the mix"!

However to take your sound to a new level, I must ask how you recorded the Orange 1x8 cab. What mic did you use and how close to the cab? I think I can hear your room's natural reverberations quite a bit.

Posted by: HiimAlex Apr 16 2015, 08:51 PM

I used my mobile phone to record it and the cab was about 3m from the phone. But I could definitely try to record a new take tomorrow with the cab closer to the phone.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 16 2015, 09:04 PM

Thanks for the reply - this is great, I think we will be able to up your sound quite a bit!

Recording 3 m away from the amp is a 'no no', especially in a untreated room. The sound you get is the same as if you applied a super low quality reverb mixed 100%.

I see the Orange Micro Terror has "phones" output, this kind of output almost always has some kind of speaker simulation / treble attenuator applied to it, and should be perfect to direct record with. Have you tried connecting the phones output directly to the computer? (in other words without using any mic)

Posted by: HiimAlex Apr 16 2015, 09:59 PM

Thanks for your reply Kris.
I have tried to record while I had quite much gain on the Orange Micro terror and got kind of crappy results, but since I run the Micro Terror on clean settings now it could have other results.
The Digitech Gnx2 also has a headphones output, I can try to record directly from the Gnx2 and see what sounds best

Posted by: Mertay Apr 16 2015, 10:49 PM

So on the digitech you are using 2 amps and 2 cab.s at the same time (probably parallel) and from the digitechs output, carrying that signal to the input of the orange amp?

Posted by: HiimAlex Apr 17 2015, 06:20 AM

Exactly

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 17 2015, 07:28 AM

If you are used to hearing the "amp in the room" kind of sound - direct recording might sound weird at first.

But it would definitely be interesting to hear you record directly from either of the units. Perhaps lowering the tone knob on the Orange amp can make the distorted sounds less 'treblish'?

Once you have recorded the direct signal, we can always add pro sounding reverb later on, and that will give you the "Amp in the room" sound but in a more professional way.

Posted by: Mertay Apr 17 2015, 09:22 AM

Ah ok, the problem is with the orange amp you're distorting your modulation FX (reverb/delay etc.) probably thats why you didn't like the sound. Turn them off from the digitech and if you like, then the orange can be distorted more. They can be added to the end of chain as Kristofer mentioned.

I'm all for tone experimentation, using amps from processor for overdriving your orange amp is a cool idea but not sure about usings cab.s. They are essentially filters yes but try tweaking the tone with disabling them from processor (if you're going to use the orange's cab. for recording) and use eq's if possible cause as you progress or use more analog gear in the future this will be your approach to tone.

Kristofer's comment on direct signal recording is spot on, I'd love to hear you try this

Posted by: Beat Zbinden Apr 17 2015, 02:21 PM

Hi

This is my Sound for this Backing Track.

I work with the Fractal Audio AXE FX Mark 2
The Sound is based on Marshall JTM 45 with a Drive in Front and a Ping Pong Delay and a Reverb.
Direct in Logic X.
My Guitar is a Ibanez JEM 7V

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 17 2015, 08:47 PM

I'm definitely in, give me a few more days please.

Another thing a lot of people don't realise is how much the "volume" knob on the guitar changes the sound. Many, myself included until recently; use it more like and on/off device. Maybe that could be discussed/explained a little.

Thanks

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 17 2015, 09:37 PM

Cool Beat, this is spot on. To me this tone fits the mix and backing great - and the sound and distortion character is tasty and seems to match your style well.

I have a slight feeling you could glue your better with the rest of the instruments. I am not speaking about an EQ problem or anything like that - I think the solution is simply to lower volume of your guitar a tiny bit. You could aim to have it the same volume as the snare hits. Kick and snare seem to be the loudest instruments of the backing track.

I am listening with (studio) headphones now - and it would be interesting to hear what others think.



Excellent Phil, looking forward to it. And thanks for coming up with the idea of this workshop http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=54121.

And yep I think we will come to discussing the volume knob as it's such an integral part of tweaking sound.



@ Alex - Mertay has a good point here. But don't worry too much about it, let's just take it step by step and I am quite sure we'll see see a significant improvement of your sound.

I am looking forward to hearing that direct recording we spoke about!

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Apr 17 2015, 10:29 PM

Here's a quick improv over the track.

I use BIAS from Positive grid.

Let me know what I can do to improve this.

Posted by: MisterM Apr 18 2015, 07:04 AM

Hi Kristofer

First : Your guitar playing is great , I love your legato , I hope in the future play that way

2d : This thread is awesome.

I took one hour this morning to translate because automatic translators do a bad job .
Sometimes it's difficult for me to answer because the sentences are inconsistent.

Advice on making sound are great.
I begin to understand some of the subtleties regarding the time effects - delay and reverb

My mistake :
Distortion : too much gain, too much treeble on tone
Delay : too much time, dry and feedback

Today I reduce all effects, because my hands and my fingers are little bit flexible.
I think it's important to say that effects mask the defects of beginner and we need time to admit it.
Daily, guitarist improves and reduces the effects.....

If I have a time, I 'll hope to play on the track....

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 18 2015, 08:29 AM

Thanks Cael, your take can be heard very well without it being louder than the backing - well done!

To me - the biggest improvement here would be to get rid of some of those nasty treble frequencies. It's not super bad in any way, but I think this is a typical 'problem' for people with metal background, where treble is a must to even be heard. On this track it's not really needed - and it takes away the warmth we're looking for. In technical terms, there is lots of EQ space on this backing track compared to a metal/rock backing. So rather than dialing in extra treble in order to be heard, we can go for a warmer sound, that would - again - not work on a rock/metal backing.

If I were given your guitar-only-track the first thing I would reach out for would be a wide EQ scoop in the 2-4K region of ~2DB (so again it's a matter of subtle tweaking).

In Bias you would try to turn down the treble knob, while keeping the presence knob where it's at (if there are such controls - haven't tried that software).

However the easiest way to solve this is probably to use the treble knob on your guitar, as it will usually keep the top end while removing harsh treble. Again, this is not something you would typically do in metal/rock (I guess people even tend to remove the treble knob) - but it's very effective for other genres.

Also the earlier in the signal chain you can fix an EQ problem the better, because cutting afterwards is bound to make the signal weaker and remove mojo. But if you do it before the amp, then the amp's distortion will add "what is not there" - and that is the whole magic with distortion.

Let me know what you think!



Excellent, it sounds like you are working in the right direction. Can't wait to hear what you come up with. Thanks a million for the kind words!

Posted by: MisterM Apr 18 2015, 10:29 AM

Nice take, it's mix groove and sweetness

Posted by: HiimAlex Apr 18 2015, 07:28 PM

Thanks for you help and answers Mertay and Kris!
Here is a new video, I used the "phones" out on the Digitech today because I liked the prefer more than going Guitar->Digitech->Orange Micro Terror. The sound is based on a Mesa Boogie Mark IV and effects was same as last (reverb and chorus).

Posted by: Mertay Apr 18 2015, 08:19 PM

Much better! there is still just a little bit more room for improving but I'll leave that to kris

HiimAlex, I didn't ask before do you have a soundcard or know how to use a DAW or fx from DAW? if no, just open a topic and pm the link to me incase I miss to see it and I'll help if needed

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 18 2015, 08:36 PM

Awesome Alex - getting rid of your room's reverberation meant a big step in the right direction! Well done! I still feel we should be able to improve your sound, and I have ben trying to think what pulls it down, in order of priority:

* Playing - 'sound is in the fingers' and around 00:25 you play with more conviction, using rakes and more powerful picking. Do that from the beginning, and try to only use the notes you think sound best from the scale.

* Reverb/chorus. I think this might be the biggest remaining tone problem. Both of these are easy to do wrong and therefore clash with the backing (which has its own reverbs). I would suggest you skip those effects and try delay instead to get a bigger sound. I found the manual and delay options seem pretty good (page 33 http://rdn.harmanpro.com/product_documents/documents/76_1289513569/GNX2manual_original.pdf).
Questions:
- are you recording a stereo signal?
- what DAW are you using (name and version number would help)

* I think your guitar needs to be turned up a little in the mix (a little louder).

Posted by: HiimAlex Apr 18 2015, 10:28 PM

Thanks for your feedback Kristofer, I can agree that it definitely sounds better without room reverberation.
I can try with some different delays for sure to see which one I like best, what delay do you usually use?
At the moment I do not use a stereo signal, but I can record with a stereo signal.
I use Reaper v4.731.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 19 2015, 08:25 AM

Great! The standard is actually to record in mono, and add the delay/chorus/reverb in the DAW. Since you use reaper you have access to a killer delay plugin call "Readelay" (page 12 http://www.reaper.fm/guides/ReaEffectsGuide.pdf).

So I suggest you record a dry signal to reaper and do the rest of the experimenting there.

Readelay seems extremely flexible and you can add as many delays as you want to. With a risk of complicating this, I will try to explain what I aim for when dialing in delay for this kind of solo sound.

----

A non audible stereo delay to increase width and fatness: A common misconception is to dial in fatness through EQ, but a lot of it comes from time based effects. With this delay I will have:

- One delay panned hard left (use readelay's "stereo width"), delay time ~200 ms (Readelay's "Length (time)", with only one reptition (this is usually called "feedback")

- One delay panned hard right (use readelay's "stereo width"), delay time ~300 ms (Readelay's "Length (time)", with only one reptition (this is usually called "feedback")

Both of these should be EQ:ed so that only frequencies in the ~300-3000Hz region are repeated (use Readelay's Highpass and Low pass filter).

If you get this delay right it will make you sound much bigger , wider and fatter - without creating any audible delay (again you will only hear the difference when switching the effect on and off). So its important to mix the delay low (Readelay's "Volume")

I realise I got very technical here so please ask me follow-up question so I can clarify further. If you don't want to bother with this technical stuff then just spend some time experimenting. After all that's what I have been doing to find settings that work for me.

I will also you use at least one more separate delay which has more audible feedback (usually in 16th or 8th notes).

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 20 2015, 12:38 PM

Here's my first one Kris. So, instead of going to one of my saved patches I started from scratch.
Signal Chain is:-
G&L ASAT Tele Deluxe -> Interface -> Cakewalk X2 Producer -> Acme Bar Gig Amp/Speaker sim.
https://soundcloud.com/neilwaller/tonehone

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 20 2015, 01:35 PM

Thanks Sensible, those are some neat lines!

The #1 thing that strikes me is that your guitar take is too loud.

Secondly - it feels very dry and (possibly) on the 'treblish' side. However I find it difficult to say for sure when you lead is so loud.

I would suggest resting your ears a little, adjust the volume again, maybe listen to a reference track of a similar genre (NB on the same monitors), tweak some more and let your ears rest again.

The tone does feel organic with a very nice distortion though, so this should be a good starting point to perfect your sound.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 20 2015, 02:48 PM

OK, will drop the level on the next one.
It is quite dry, no Modulation Reverb or Delay. I'll bring the treble down a bit too, would you do this on the Amp model or would you add an EQ in the chain somewhere?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 20 2015, 03:09 PM

I would probably first try it on the guitar with tone knob, if you are happy with the patch. Otherwise tweaking the amp model is probably logical thing to do. The only thing you should try to avoid is to do it afterwards in your DAW (though that can be ok as well, in small amounts).

Posted by: Mertay Apr 20 2015, 03:17 PM

Quick mix tip; Probably every DAW has a mono button on its master channel, matching level in mono might be easier.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 20 2015, 03:33 PM

OK, dropped in the mix and tweaked the Amp sim.
https://soundcloud.com/neilwaller/tonehone-2

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 20 2015, 08:40 PM

Thanks! The lead is now a bit too low to my ears (sorry for constant nagging ) - see my previous advice, as tweaking volumes is difficult. The key is to reference other mixes and let your ears rest in between. Mertay's suggestion is worth testing as well (I will also start doing it, I don't check my mixes that often in mono).

However, it is much easier for me to comment on your sound now, and I can immediately tell that your sound has no problems cutting through this mix. I can also tell it's a bit thin sounding.

The first thing I would try is the midrange knob on the amp sim, and then the bass knob. Try to get a warmer sound, there is lots of space for low midrange in this mix.

An overdrive pedal can also add warmth, though I usually reach for the amp's EQ first.

As mentioned your sound is dry - and this is not necessarily a bad thing. However a little bit of delay/reverb is almost a must for the sake of 'gluing' your instrument in the mix. Without it, we get the impression you are standing right beside us and the band is playing 10 meters further away.

I would suggest you start with adding delay. You should be able to add a subtle delay without compromising too much on your vision of a dry sound.

As mentioned before I think it's a bit more difficult to find a suitable reverb - as it should preferably match the reverb Stephane used when mixing the backing track.

Looking forward to get an update from you!

Posted by: Mertay Apr 21 2015, 09:01 AM

Balancing levels can be annoying because there is something called the equal loudness contour (also called Fletcher-Munson curves); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour .

Simply; A sources freq. response can change depending how loud we listen to it. It's a part of our nature on how we hear sounds and we start to adjust to it when dealing with music.

So although we like a guitar sound solo in a certain listening level, the moment we change its level to fit a backing track it can get muddy or harsh even if the level balance is perfect. Or vice versa, the backing track is adjusted to a different loudness contour and again we must adjust the guitar to it...

Actually I think this is why many amps has a "presence" knob as notice although it works as an eq, its prefered not to be labeled like that. When adjusting amp tone without a backing track, try keeping it close to the middle position as much as possible so we can later use it to balance with a track. So first adjust level, then if there is harshness or mud in tone then go for the presence knob.

This should help but if not enough, then go for the eq's on the amp. Start testing from high to low (probably you won't need to tweak the low eq) and tweak them as light as possible. Just remember, while tweaking you're not dealing with guitar tone anymore, its about eliminating mud or harshness.

We can go in much greater detail for this subject (equal loudness contour) but lets keep it in the guitar fashion otherwise it will be complicated and not fun. But I honestly think tips shared (and will be shared as requested) here should be enough.

Posted by: clashchords Apr 21 2015, 03:50 PM

First time I've placed anything on the forum so..hello!

I'm playing an Ibanez Iron Label (neck pickup-EMG) through a Focusrite 2i2 into Reaper with the following VSTs:

TSE 808
Nick Crow 8505 Lead
Ignite Amps NadIr v 1.0.2 (s-preshigh and Blackcat Leon S7 impulses)
Reaper JS delay
Cockos ReaEQ

I've been spending several weeks trying to get a decent tone from my DAW and when I saw this on the front page of the website I couldn't have been more happier! So here you go!

https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/honeyrtone

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 21 2015, 04:15 PM

Awesome to have you in clashchords - welcome to the forum! There are some greta melodies in your take.

First: well done dialing in the delay, this is a very good starting point. It's discrete but does its job - if you want even more on top of this you can tweak away to your taste, but only if you feel the need.

As with others - your take is too loud. And this works to your disadvantage. However I must say, thanks to the delay your take already fits better in the mix (in spite of the high volume).

Tone wise - this feels more like metal sound to me. It's lacking warmth/body, it's a bit too "treblish" / bright - and in my opinion a bit too much distortion.

With the little experience I have with active emgs, I know they can be tricky to use for non metal genres. However I am sure you can get closer. So I recommend:

* lower the gain (try on both the amp and tube screamer and see which one you prefer)

* increase mid range and (maybe) also bass

* lower treble if still needed (on your guitar, TS808 or/and amp sim)

The setup you have TS808 + hi-gain 8505 is very typical to metal rhythm guitar. Perhaps you want to try swapping both? Ie don't use and overdive/booster and go for a more dynamic amp (less hi gain). I realise this might not suit your taste though, so feel free to keep tweaking your current rig (and then post a new audio clip).

Let me know what you think!

Posted by: clashchords Apr 21 2015, 05:17 PM

Thanks for all your input Kris! I am ALWAYS being told by my friends to turn my treble and distortion down! Here's a new version. I turned off the 808, switched the amp and just kept the Blackat Leon impulse. I also did some tweaking with the eq settings and turned the solo volume in the mix down. Let me know what you think.

https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/honeyrtone2

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 21 2015, 08:36 PM

Ok here's my first attempt. Sorry I've taken so long but things have been bad here.

Guitar was a stock Ibanez RG1570 on bridge pickup with tone and vol all the way up. Amplitube settings are in images below, I thought this would be easier than explaining

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/take-1

Pedals
http://s353.photobucket.com/user/PhilDY6/media/Pedals_zpsndybnpxk.jpg.html

Amp
http://s353.photobucket.com/user/PhilDY6/media/Amp_zpscyphksku.jpg.html

Cab
http://s353.photobucket.com/user/PhilDY6/media/Cab_zpstsfr5zzp.jpg.html

Rack FX
http://s353.photobucket.com/user/PhilDY6/media/Rack_zpse9z4unnn.jpg.html

Please advise.

Thank you.

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 21 2015, 09:04 PM

Excellent - this is so much better!

The only "big" thing remaining to my ears, would be to give you sound some body (=midrange and bass). It's still very thin sounding.

Turn the midrange knob up, if that doesn't sound right then try other amp sims. You might have to go through a whole bunch.

There is nothing wrong with your sound, but considering this backing track is just begging for a fat lead tone to take up space - it's a shame you don't utilise it. Your tone would work in combination with another lead (or maybe vocals) - but as it is now your kinda leaving a midrange hole - if that make sense.

Take some space man! Most times lead guitarists are told to back off, but this time I am asking you to take some space!



Very nice Phil, this is good. I would probably lower the guitar just a liiiittle bit - but other than that I think this one works in the mix. The rest is just personal preference, but since I have lots of personal preferences I'll keep going

This one has a lot of fizzy treble - which I personally try to stay away from. Especially with soft backings such as this one. I can see your treble knob is way up on the amp. Try lowering it - because with the presence knob ~ where it is you will still be heard.

Distortion: to me this is almost too much - however there is often a correlation between treble and the amount of perceived distortion. So I find it's easier to get away with lots of distortion if you are careful not to overdo the treble. So in other words I would first address the treble issue and then maybe you can keep this amount of distortion.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 21 2015, 10:17 PM

Thanks Kris,

I can't try tonight now but how do you think a quick switch to the neck pickup would sound?

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 22 2015, 06:09 AM

Its definitely worth testing, but I doubt it will remove all treble I am hearing. Treble knob on the guitar is also worth testing.

Posted by: clashchords Apr 22 2015, 08:40 PM

Here's another adjustment to the mix, but i think the lead volume may be too loud? I'm also beginning to wonder how well I can polish this solo with freeware. EMGs are probably not ideal for the solo either.



https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/soul-rnb-blues-backing-track-in-b-minor-solo5

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 22 2015, 09:10 PM

Hello Kris,

Hey, it would be great if this workshop could keep on running, maybe a different style so that we can all have our own melodic sound, texas blues sound, rock sound etc etc etc. It's more fun than I thought it would be

Anyway, here's some more noodling. Sorry but I changed the guitar, it's a PRS SE Custom 24. It's a 7 string but didn't manage to use the 7th on this I never even thought about changing the sound in the post So I just did some more noodling on a different guitar. Sorry , at least it gave me some improvising practise

I only altered three areas and the images are below the Soundcloud

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/take-3

Take 2 Stomp
http://s353.photobucket.com/user/PhilDY6/media/Take%202%20stomp_zps4aqfhfcs.jpg.html

Take 2 amp
http://s353.photobucket.com/user/PhilDY6/media/Take%202%20amp_zps3c4q2r8t.jpg.html

Take 2 cab
http://s353.photobucket.com/user/PhilDY6/media/Take%202%20cab_zpsji2g6qkd.jpg.html

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 22 2015, 09:23 PM

Freeware is not a problem, and we should be able to work around those EMGs!

Can you post a screenshot of the settings? Your tone is lacking midrange and bass - i still think just turning those knobs up should help. Keep using the neck pickup!



Very good Phil, you fixed both issues (too much treble and distortion)!

Further tweaks would be to adjust effects mix (maybe make the sound a little dryer), and turn your take up a little bit. However I don't think you need me to tell you this stuff, you should keep experimenting with new tones for every recording you do - and keep improving to your taste.

Having said this - I think it's safe to say the biggest improvement possibilities now lie in your playing style, and this is sort of the goal with this workshop - to be able to exclude the sound factor.

In other words you would be able to get a much better sound - by working on your picking dynamics control, timing, vibrato, etc - the usual things we discuss!

Great idea to do this workshop for another type of backing track. Ie a metal backing would call for completely different thinking.

Posted by: bleez Apr 22 2015, 09:44 PM

FWIW duder, That is none too shabby at all, I liked it a lot. The new guitar sounds very nice indeed

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 22 2015, 10:03 PM

Thanks Scott, much appreciated. I've only just come into this so haven't seen if you have a post. I'll look tomorrow.

Cheers buddy



Thanks Kris,

At this rate I won't have time to fit all my lessons in bending, vibrato, alternate picking, dynamics, solo, rhythm, theory, ear training

I know I said a Texas blues workshop would be good but specifically I meant the great SRV, most of us won't be using 15's but we could try to get close to his tone couldn't we?

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 22 2015, 10:37 PM

For sure!

I could help you get a tone that works for a bluesier mix, but I am not experienced enough to help you get a specific blues/SRV sound.

However I am sure you can get very close to it without using obnoxious string gauge. And it will be a combination of a 'verge-of-breakup' sound and typical blues cliche techniques.

But this makes me think we should perhaps do a blues collab next, I can't remember last time we did one? Nothing beats playing the blues!

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 23 2015, 07:26 AM

I was thinking exactly that about a blues collab myself, maybe along the lines of Tin Pan Alley or Redhouse





Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 23 2015, 08:51 AM

This one gave me some ideas for the coming collab, thanks! If i can realize my vision it will very cool, watch this space..!

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 23 2015, 03:25 PM

Raised up in the mix a touch and some delay added. If you think there's still too much treble I may have to adjust my Monitors as it's sounding OK at home.

https://soundcloud.com/neilwaller/tonehone-3

Plus, my fractured finger is getting better too!

Posted by: fzalfa Apr 23 2015, 07:08 PM

https://soundcloud.com/laurent-dizy/hone-your-tone

a fast tryout, i'm sick as a dog (a bad flu 39.2° now), and i just get up (yes at 8pm....)

i take my medicine and return to bed.....

about the tone, it's a cool preset from GR5, and i put between my FA66 and the guitar(greg bennett RL5 in this case) an ART lamp pre-amp

Laurent

edit: at 0.48 i didn't kick my cat ! meeoowww !!! bad bend....
edit: i do not have a cat.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 23 2015, 09:18 PM

Well this is pretty cool - to me it sounds like you now have a completely new palette of musical ideas to choose from - with this new sound.

I sounds warmer than anything I have heard from you - very very well done!

The rest is just a matter of taste. I would still turn down treble some more simply because this backing doesn't require much treble. I would probably also lower the delay mix. Btw can you tell me what more effects you are using?

I can't wait to hear you in the next collab, I think you have shown us some serious sound tweaking progress here!


But do you have a dog?!

No seriously - this first take is a bit different from many other in the sense that the EQ balance matches my taste very well. Lots of body and not too much treble.

You probably have slightly too much of the bottom low end (~100Hz and lower), I would try applying a soft "high pass" filter here. Or simply dial out a little bit of bass in GR5.

I would probably lower the gain a little bit to allow your expressive phrases to come though with more dynamics.

To better glue you take in the mix - I suggest lowering volume of your take, and maybe experiment with delay a little bit.

Also your take seems to be panned left, there is no reason for that as there are not other lead instruments in the backing. I think it should be centered.

As you probably can I hear I think this is pretty good - with a bunch of smaller tweaks you'll have a killer tone.


----

BTW those of you relying on software - might consider an inexpensive tube pre-amp such as Behringer Mic100 or ART tube MP. They can be a great way to get some additional warmth in the signal chain, and get a signal hot enough to hit your software with some power.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 24 2015, 11:13 AM

Thanks Kris!
It's been useful using someone else's ears! Especially as now I've tweaked my Monitor settings I should now be hearing something very similar to how you would be hearing it.
As for effects, none more than I mentioned, just Amp Sim, Speaker Sim and then the Delay afterwards. Amp and Speaker sim from the standard Acmebargig and the Delay was the Sonitus one from Cakewalk.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 24 2015, 07:17 PM

@Sensible,

Good point about monitoring. It is quite common for people to have bass problems in their listening environments, in other words bass frequencies get amplified and therefor people dial in less bass and their mixes end up sounding thin/bright.

If you listen to a pro production and it sounds boomy, then you might have problems with your room.

One cure to this problem is reference listening through headphones: start by listening to a pro production and then tweak your sound/mix.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 24 2015, 08:59 PM

How about some tips on those mysterious things called compressors, limiters and noise gates please

I'm studying the Pop Rock Solo and find that I can't get the big long bends to sustain so they fade away, someone told me I need to use a compressor

Cheers

Phil

Posted by: Sensible Jones Apr 24 2015, 09:17 PM

That's exactly what I did when I said I'd been tweaking my monitors!! I do own a pair of very good quality Headphones to use as a reference. I think I have them just about perfect (or as perfect as they'll ever be) now!
Thanks again for all the input Kris, it's very much appreciated!

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 24 2015, 10:22 PM

Yes these are more or less important tools. And when working with a mix, compressors are crucial.

For a guitar sound - they are especially useful for clean tones. Are you referring to this lesson?
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Pop-Rock-Solo-Beginner/

Stephane uses overdrive. One of the effects of distortion/overdrive is compression, so by adding overdrive you are automatically also adding compression.

So the most straightforward way for you try and gets Steph's tone and sustain, would be to find an overdrive sound that reminds of his. Listen to the clearly audible distortion at 00:15 when he plays a double stop.

Many different factors affect sustain, one of them being the guitar's bridge. Tele's have a fixed bridge and therefore typically sustain better than guitars with a floating bridge (for example strats).

So if dialing in overdrive (from amp/pedal, analog/software) doesn't help, you can also add compression. Typically you want to add it before the amp, since compression of a distorted tone in most cases is not desirable (there are always exceptions).

Guitar compressors usually don't have many knobs, so I recommend trial and error until you find a setting that gives you some sustain without completely squashing (=flattening out all dynamics) the tone.

PS Playing technique also affects sustain, so a relaxed fretting hand with the fretting finger(s) positioned right before the fret wire is the way to go.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 24 2015, 10:49 PM

I am totally discombobulated

Posted by: Mertay Apr 24 2015, 10:54 PM

It helps but usually doesn't catch expectations, they're better used for getting a vibe in a mix. Among many things, I highly suggests making your frets super clean and shiny.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 24 2015, 11:12 PM

Hey Bob that word is not even on google translate!

Sorry i think my attempt to explain was way complex? The simple answer is to just add overdrive.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 25 2015, 07:08 AM

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=discombobulated+meaning&oq=discombobulated&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.9887j0j4&client=tablet-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espvd=1&ie=UTF-8

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 25 2015, 07:59 PM

Just tried a compressor but I found that it really made the sound of the pick hitting the string very obvious

Posted by: Mertay Apr 25 2015, 08:15 PM

Non-organic approaches (fx) has their limit. The more you force it with fx, the more you'll bump into other problems such as noise or unpleasant character of guitar.

I'd use overdrive and if still not enough use eq before overdrive (add mid-to-high freq.s) but this or more will affect tone.

How is your vibrato? thats a great way to add musical sustain but it might take practice to perfect.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 25 2015, 08:32 PM

Well in the lesson, the teacher isn't using vibrato (that I can see) to make the big bent notes sing out. He may have had his amp up loud though. http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Pop-Rock-Solo-Beginner/

Thanks

Phil

Posted by: Mertay Apr 25 2015, 09:14 PM

hmmm thats not a long sustain at all, does your guitar mute the moment you do that bend?

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 25 2015, 10:09 PM

No. The string isn't getting choked it just fades real quick. I was thinking of having the all volume up much louder but keeping it low and using a volume pedal to bring it up as the note fades.

Posted by: Mertay Apr 25 2015, 11:23 PM

Still thats a pretty quick fade, what about the noise gate? can you try canceling it?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 26 2015, 09:46 PM

Phil I saw your take here: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=54260&hl=

Your sound is much cleaner than Steph's and it will not help for sustain. So as mentioned, the first step is for you to use some kind of booster in the beginning of the chain (so between you guitar and the amp).

Typically Fulltone OCD, Xotic BB preamp, tube screamer etc. Software booster will work as well.

Secondly I see your guitar has lots of pickups, if those pickups are too close to the strings - their magnetic power will completely kill sustain. I adjusted pickup height on my ltd, and all of a sudden sustain was comparable to my les paul.

Beware that when you back off the pickups you get less output, but personally I don't see this a problem since I almost always use a booster pedal in front of the amp.

Let me know if this make sense? (or is Bob back? )

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 26 2015, 10:46 PM

Thanks Kris,
It all makes sense this time I've tried experimenting with software gain but can't get it right. Next step is to put my Boss ME80 signal chain. When I first heard Steph's tone I thought the input signal was clean and the distortion was from the speaker. This tone chasing is a skill all on its own
Cheers
Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 26 2015, 10:58 PM

Great Phil, I don't think speaker distortion is a desirable thing, so that is probably not it.

Check 00:15 here ( http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Pop-Rock-Solo-Beginner/ ) - it should be a pretty good indication of how much distortion/overdrive he is using. In other words, the tone you dial in should only produce audible distortion when you play two notes at the same time like Steph did at 00:15.

ME-80 looks like it should definitely be able to get you in the ballpark, I would start with these pedals:


...In combination with the "clean", "tweed" or "crunch" amps:



I am just basing this advice upon the the names of the amp/pedals, I haven't actually tried the ME-80.

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 26 2015, 11:41 PM

Thanks Kris.,
I'll check it out tomorrow evening
Cheers
Phil

Posted by: Phil66 Apr 29 2015, 10:52 PM

Hello Kris,
Haven't had chance to look at this yet BUT speaker distortion was big in the 60's with the Rolling Stones actually slicing the speaker cones with razor blades
Cheers
Phil

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Apr 30 2015, 11:54 AM

hehe ok cool, I had no idea!

Posted by: Chris S. Apr 30 2015, 07:26 PM

Hey Kris!

So I've been tinkering with this lesson and my ability to craft a decent rhythm tone has always been lacking:

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Anvil-Style/

This is the rough tone that I've been working on (don't mind the sloppy playing )

https://soundcloud.com/stortzmusic/anvil-tone-test

I think a big factor is my lack of studio monitors - what it sounds like through my good pair of studio headphones it sounds like completely different when playing though computer speakers.

My setup for the recording was like this:

Epiphone SG Pro -> Avid Eleven Rack -> REAPER -> Studio Headphones

The settings on my Eleven Rack:

Chain: Guitar -> Tube Screamer (11 Racks version) -> SL100 -> Blue Line cab (Condensor 414 mic on axis) -> Very small reverb -> Out



What are some things I can do to improve the sound?

Thanks

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl May 1 2015, 08:22 PM

@Chris S

I think this rhythm sample sounds awesome!!

I think you should be able to make this work well in a mix. Bare in mind though I am personally working on understanding the mechanisms of a metal mix - and I am still learning (so I might not be the right person to critique).

If you can try this sound in a mix, I will be able to give you better advice though.

As always the more bass you have on the rhythm guitars the less prominent bass guitar will be. On some heavy recordings it's impossible to hear bass guitar - but that's not necessarily a bad thing (not sure Bole will agree though )

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl May 3 2015, 12:07 PM

Thanks for all the input here, I hope someone got wiser..!

I will leave this thread open in case anybody needs more feedback.

Posted by: Mertay May 3 2015, 01:15 PM

I tried to figure out an easy way to mix lead guitar to a backing as usually its too "upfront" compared to the mix. This is meant to be used after you balance the output as close as possible.

To fake depth, 6db high and low cuts can be used. If the eq you use doesn't support this, this is a nice and easy to use option;

http://www.brainworx-music.de/en/plugins/bx_cleansweep_v2



6db cuts are the most gentle, use it right after the cab. and before reverb etc. if you use any. Start with the highs, then if there's rumble then lows. You might want to fine-tune the volume again after this eq'ing.

Another problem is pinch harmonics or (if the guitar is bright) strong picking can produce desirable but strong high freq. sounds that jump and mask the backing track in that moment.

This is where a deesser (de-esser) helps most. Can't give details as best setting depends on tone but from the default state of any plug-in you use, start lowering the threshold till it starts to slightly balance the highs (play high notes, pinch harmonics that you use on your solo when adjusting this). Then fine tune the selected freq. range if needed.

Important thing is to listen to match the mix, don't do it for the tone as the added fatness might confuse. Taking out just 2-3db of those jumping notes should be enough to have a balanced guitar track. Hope it helps.

Posted by: Phil66 May 4 2015, 01:04 PM

Thanks Kris,

This definitely helped with the basics, it would be to see it grow into an encyclopaedia of tone but that we all have to join in. Maybe a new backing would encourage more participation.

Cheers

Phil