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Posted by: Nemanja Mar 13 2008, 12:24 AM

Reading the post of JVM in theard "wrighting music" massterclassguitar forum....
made me wonder...
is it necesary to knowe theory to play(operantly not)....but does it help...
what do you think?

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Mar 13 2008, 12:35 AM

We had this several topics regarding this and again my answer is - yes, theory is very useful, it is the "language of the musicians" and musicians can comunicate better when knowing theory, whetter they write it on paper, or just use theory terms to describe what they do and play.

Posted by: Hisham Mar 13 2008, 12:38 AM

its very important

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 13 2008, 12:39 AM

I agree...for example if you play and in range of one scale..yuo shoud knowe all the chords in range of that scale befor you modulate....for me it is easyer that way.....

p.s....did not knowe ther was topics on this subject...sory

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Mar 13 2008, 01:19 AM

Off course, knowing all the scales and harmony is a must, also knowing other stuff and communicating with others like "play staccato, or alternate here, and economy there" or play "forte" this part... - means something precise and mesaure-able so people can understand each other better. THat's my point of view.

Posted by: JVM Mar 13 2008, 01:30 AM

I think that most serious guitar players will pick up terms like stacatto and different types of picking (which is more a technique than theory isn't it?). At the same time I think the most important aspect of theory is learning intervals and ear training.

I just think there is an over emphasis on learning scales. Scales are nice, scales are good, but learning to hear what is going on is often overlooked for new players. That is the technique that makes Marty and Jimi for example so good. This should be combined with a knowledge of scales. You should be able to pick out and know the key you are in at all times for example.

I'm not saying theory is totally garbage though

Posted by: Guitarman700 Mar 13 2008, 02:37 AM

i would say, yes, very important. every time i learn something new in theory, my playing improves noticeably. ive started studying theory more than ever lately, as im not happy with my current level of knowledge.

Posted by: RIP Dime Mar 13 2008, 03:21 AM

Theory can be a great asset, guitarists who don't take advantage of it may take much longer to improve in all areas of playing.

The main goal for me as a guitar player is to make good music, if I didn't have the knowledge of theory I do now it would be harder for me to make good music. When I make songs I don't really pay attention to the theory side of playing, I just play what sounds cool to me, but my knowledge of theory helps me find out what's going on, and why it sounds cool, and that helps me build on top of ideas and come up with things that sound better and are more interesting. I also wouldn't be very good at translating ideas in my head into music if I didn't know theory. That's why i think theory is good to know.

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 13 2008, 03:53 AM

I would say that you can become a relatively good guitarist/musician with little to no theory knowledge, and in some cases.. freakishly good, like in Marty Friedmans case.
But i think at "relatively good" is where it will stop for most of us if we dont know much theory.

Becoming familiar with the scales will push you alot further.

Posted by: Juan M. Valero Mar 13 2008, 07:48 AM

it's important for playing but it's more important for writing music

Posted by: demonmyst Mar 13 2008, 08:08 AM

I wish I forced myself to learn theory. I learned some just by playing, but I'm clueless as to what scales I know, some of my techniques and stuff.

I'm trying to figure out more things, but lazyness rules over me. Which is the reason why I have such a low post count and only spent a few hours on here out of 2 months or maybe a bit more! :[


Edit- Actually thinking that over....I know most of my technique names, I know most of the minor scale and major scale shapes I can improvise on them, and a few other scales, but I never know what key I'm in for the life of me! Probably one of the popular ones like E I assume.

I have Guitar Grimoire scales and modes, I should probably make use of it. There's also all the shapes I need to know, ah! Theory is soooooo gigantic! Then after shapes it's what comes OUT of the box. Psch....silly musical theory.

On my piece, knowing the names of things helps you sound like you know your instrument :]

Posted by: demonmyst Mar 13 2008, 08:10 AM

Accident double post...

Posted by: lavendell Mar 13 2008, 09:07 AM

Yes. Theory is important, because it's a part of music... but it's only a part, and you can do well if you just know the very basic stuff, as already mentioned.

But don't get me wrong, of course it's better to know the theory than not knowing it

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Mar 13 2008, 12:55 PM

You can use theory in a couple of different ways ...

Firstly, if you are an experienced player but know no theory, once you start to learn it it can explain things you have been doing all along - for instance, a lot of us will instinctively use modes such as Dorian and Mixolydian without knowing it. Whilst its nice to understand that you are doing things, it is still after the fact.

But once you learn some theory, you can start to put it in front of the process and do these things deliberately from the standpoint of knowledge, then the benefit becomes that you can take your playing to new places through deliberate application of theory techniques, at which point you start to get some value out of it.

If you limit yourself to the first scenario, it comes down to how good you are at fumbling through the dark - some are very good, others are hopeless. Learning theory puts a light on, and you don't need to fumble anymore!

Posted by: mattacuk Mar 13 2008, 04:01 PM

Fantastic topic

And my answer is .... yes it is important to know you theory I just dont belive in over complicating things with it.

We get alot of new guitarist who stress themselves out with trying to learn complex theory too fast!! I belive that practice should come first, and theory a littler later - when you are ready to take it in.

For me time/rythm is the best place to start of with. This is because undestanding rythm enables a new player to use his/her metronome effectivly, thus practicing efficently right from the start!!

Once he or she has been practicing exercises and peices of music correctly for a while, then he/she will be in a good positiong to understand theory basics more redaly. Intervals are a great place to start because you learn to build chord progressions and start being Creative.

In short, I belive you should make theory work for YOU, and not you working for it

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 13 2008, 04:05 PM

You don't need to know any theory whatsoever to write music. I know no music theory. Well I know a little more than I did when I wrote our EP. It's all about being able to hear the music and tab out what you hear. Having a good set of ears is much better than knowing theory. Knowing theory can make you choose the obvious choice for a note whereas not knowing theory maybe you'll pick a strange note that works really well in context of the song you are doing. Music Theory lets you write songs quicker but they aren't necessarily going to be better. I'm a firm believer in trusting your ears and the music you hear.

Posted by: Robin Mar 13 2008, 04:26 PM

Theory is not "very important" at all IMO. But i suppose its still pretty good to know.

Posted by: Smells Mar 13 2008, 04:43 PM

I dont put a huge emphasis on theory either although I do have some ground knowledge, I think Andrews answer here is spot on for me, I`ve fumbled around for a long time, but now applying some theory "before" the event gives some extra options that may have been overlooked before or at least not found as quickly, I mix the two really, ears and theory.

Posted by: Guitarman700 Mar 13 2008, 06:15 PM

this is becoming an interesting discussion. perhaps it should be stickied. perhaps with a short bullet point summary of the pros and cons of theory.

Posted by: SLASH91 Mar 13 2008, 06:26 PM

I don't even know any scales, I just havn't made myself sit down and learn them. It's so boring imo. I never wan't to learn how to construct chords or anything like that, but I really do need to learn some scales and memorize the fretboard.

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 13 2008, 06:59 PM

well...good ear is impotrant..but imagination,and theory are equaly important..for wrighting music that is...
imagin you are wrighting the whole song..not just guitar part..but strings, piano,well bass as well...I knowe you can imagine all that things in your head and you can sing every part to your musicians...but if you want to wright some thing downe,wituth theory knolage it woud be allmust inposible...then there are modulations...only when I learnd the rules of mudulation I becom to relay on theory...alot people that I knowe for example star a song in C minor and the next chord they wnna play they say is G#,but that dont existe in Cminor scale ...in C minor scale it is the 6 th ..and it is not G#..but Ab...and knowing that kinnd of stuff makes it so much easyer to move fovard.....
that is just hove it is easyer for me
every thing is relative and if people find theory not important and they give good resolts...I cant nothig say to them...in the end it is not important how you get shome where,bu did you get there or not:)

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 13 2008, 07:09 PM

I write all drums, vocals, bass, guitar, strings for our songs and I know no theory. I can just hear everything I want and tab it out on guitar. If you have a good ear you need no theory.

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 13 2008, 07:29 PM

offcousrse...
I just sad I could nevere do that...becouse I don't knowe howe

Posted by: DeepRoots Mar 13 2008, 07:46 PM

well for me- music theory has been a blessing. I've never been the most creative guy whe it comes to writing riffs and solos, and for a long time i sucked at guitar.

It may just be my opnion- but music theory is no way boring- it just fascinates me. I've sat down and looked at the theory lessons and now believe i have a good understanding.

But where does that leave me?

I can now have a good go at writing solos- and sometimes i wont always have melodies running through my head while i improvise, but understanding even basic theory can give you options when soloing. Learning scales and then having an opinion on each scale- then more specifically an opinion on each interval against the bass note (this does tie in quite nicely with ear training) has been a great way for me to write things. Sometimes i'll look at something im playing: "right, im bending up the the fourth , would the fifth sound more effective here?". Being able to analyse music you love so that you can use it in your own playing is another advantage of theory.

IMHO- if you dont enjoy learning theory- dont learn it. If you do like learning theory- then your probably reading theory lessons right now

If you dont think you're very creative- try learning some theory, you may find it opens doors for you and can give you a spark of creativity.

If you'd rather rely on what you hear in your head- then that works too- many great players have done just that

But after actually wanting to learn more and more theory- i wont unlearn it anytime soon.

Be warned: you cant switch this thing off once it gets going

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Mar 13 2008, 08:22 PM

And you know this how, since you claim to know no theory ??

I think Matt makes a good point, its useful but don't be a slave to it - OC, I actually kind of agree that knowing what is expected can stifle creativity, but the trick is to make theory serve creativity not the other way around!

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 13 2008, 08:32 PM

If you don't know the key or scale of a song every note on the guitar is at your disposal I guess. If you write a song with certain chords if you know theory you'd instantly think of what scale would work. I can't do that as I don't know theory so I just play anything I think sounds good. It is very hard for improv stuff but for writing songs I prefer not knowing freedom. I can improv but sometimes bits sound weird but cool also

Posted by: Nick Kellie Mar 13 2008, 09:03 PM

I agree with muris, but I will also say that exploring theory can give you options that you would never have realized on your own.

Nick

Posted by: Nick Kellie Mar 13 2008, 09:05 PM

also... I am a true beleiver in learning something really well before you reject it. I have seen guys slagging off shredders on youtube and i just think, - Practice your ass off for a few years until you can shred like them, and then criticize it. Knowledge is potential power and there is nothing wrong with knowing more than you need. IMHO

Posted by: JVM Mar 13 2008, 09:20 PM

This is something I can agree with. My main point is just that a lot of people over emphasize theory as the only way to be a good guitar player and so overlook other necessary components. I personally am excited to learn more about theory. I don't feel like I'm being held back by the lack of it (though I have a working knowledge) but I agree that knowing it can only help.

Posted by: mattacuk Mar 13 2008, 10:29 PM

I think the bottom line is, no you dont need theory to be a good player. But music theory really can open up new worlds to you. I will continue to learn as much theory as possible, I dont have to apply it all the time but its part of overall learning experience - and I love it

I know my favorite guitarists know there theory, Muris is one for example who is the "whole package" This really inspires me to want to soak it up all ;)

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 14 2008, 12:15 AM

Okay then, I'll add my 2 cents here.

I know all the notes on the fretboard, basic chords and some arpeggios, but I have no intention to get in scales. I think everyone has their own "Philosophy" about this matter. In MY "philosophy" the most important thing is to learn excatly how every chord sounds, atleast the basic chords, to the point where you can make a chord progression without even touching the guitar. This way you can with your ear pick the right notes for every situation, atleast I can and I just can't be the only one. This way you don't think about scales but you think about the "mood" of the song or the melodies in your head.

One thing that I like about theory though, is that you can explain what your doing to others if they need explaining. I've said this many times, but I'll say it again... I'm a huge Marty Friedman fan and if I have understood him correctly this is the Marty Friedman method, he knows his theory but he doesn't like to use it all, like scales for example.

So I think Ears and imagination are the most important thing there is to play the guitar, but basic chord theory is very useful also.

Posted by: Marcus Siepen Mar 14 2008, 09:48 AM

You don't have to be an expert in theory to be able to play your instrument, but it definitely helps, specially when you want to communicate with other musicians, it also helps to push your own limits, so yes, I think it is important.

Posted by: eddiecat Mar 14 2008, 10:19 AM

I love theory, and I'm really working on it.
I started playing 6 months ago, and theory has helped me a lot to get where I am today (where am I?).
I see theory as the glue that keeps all the pieces together, I think it is important,
and I actually think it's great fun!
Of course, then you really have to sit down and practice like a demon!
Cheers
Eddie

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 14 2008, 12:18 PM

I don't think that knowing theory can your lower the power of improvisation...knowing what should be next can only be good thing...wrighting songs moust of the time goes on in our heads...and when you pick your instrument,and going in the faze where you are trying to put your maelody in to charmony,I think that process is a lott quicker and more understandble....when the theory is on your side...

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Mar 14 2008, 12:42 PM

Excellent explanation form our theory guru! THanks Andrew!

Posted by: Muris Mar 14 2008, 02:15 PM

+ 1

It's way of explaining things and comes really handy when you communicate.

Posted by: kaznie_NL Mar 14 2008, 10:35 PM

I think you should use theory like a guideline. It can realy help you, and it won't ever do you any bad. It's like a win-win situation. If you don't use it, no problem. If you do, then it's nice!

Posted by: RIP Dime Mar 15 2008, 05:21 AM

Very good! Great explanation.