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Posted by: Aris Nov 11 2014, 11:13 AM

Hi all,

Below I have made a non-technical analysis on different ways to form questions and responses in soloing/improvization. This analysis is based on Satriani's - the extremist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP7OYW8rA20) where I think it includes all of the following approaches to make his soloing more musical and interesting.

1. questions are usually repeated taking different responses each time
2. Adjacent Questions have small rhythm/melodic variations. Similarly for responses
3. Responses may also be small variations of the questions
4. Sometimes questions will ascend the scale and responses descend or the opposite
5. Other times questions will be mainly based on longer duration notes (half and quarter notes) and responses on shorter duration notes like eighths or sixteenths or the opposite
6. a question may also be a repeating phrase. After it is played repeatedly, a response will follow.
7. responses can also be formed by repeating phrases
8. questions and responses can be short phrases or longer phrases (longer phrases have a feeling like going downhill then climbing up and start to roll with speed again)
9. often responses are played in higher octave or lower octave than questions
10. Also in general, it uses a lot of different rhythm patterns and pauses (even very short ones) at the end of most phrases

I have tried to record an example for most of the above scenarios. I must admit that it may be hard to spot the demonstrated points in the given examples since I was trying also to play something interesting at the same time, which I found it wasn't easy to come up with good ideas. All examples are attached in this post.

I played each example so many times in order to provide the best possible recording but unfortunately there are still some issues.

Let me know on your suggestions and what you think.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 12 2014, 09:30 AM

Hey man!

This is a GREAT way to look at improvisation elements and I think that it's very organic and personal. Usually people run away from improvisation because they don't really know what to do and playing something of your own is a scary thing to most people, until a certain point in their musical journey, when they have realized how to let the things you hear in your head come out.

Your approach is a great way of letting things come out in a musical way I have listened to your examples and I think that for point:

2) The idea is pretty well illustrated, but it could be a bit more obvious in terms of question and answer delimitation, as at this point, they are not as well defined - Defining them really well, involves the risk of making it sound a little too mechanical, all for the sake of demonstrational purposes tho.

3) This one has better definition in terms of relating to the description you gave it

4) 5) 6) and 9) The ideas are good as all the ones in this post, but you should spend a little time on working on timing, hand synch and intonation and reaching the correct pitches when bending

Since I think you have a lot to say musically, the technical factor is the one that you should pay a little focus on, as it can boost your abilities sky high. For that, I wanted to ask you if you would like to work together I am running a mentoring program which you can find more about, here: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=50025&st=0&start=0

Please let me know if you are interested, deal, mate?

Cosmin

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Nov 12 2014, 02:23 PM

Hi Aris!! Thanks for sharing this workout at the practice room! When you first shared this analysis at Gab's Army I thought that more GMCers could learn from this guidelines that you've wrote to create phrases based on that Satriani's song.

I checked each of the ideas recorded and I can say that each one is a good example to the point that is representing. There are some that are more "creative" or "nice sounding" while others are more informative which is not bad at this point.

I will talk a bit more about this with you at Gab's army but here I would like to invite to everybody to take this points as exercises to experiment and practice phrasing playing. Here is an idea of how to work on this:

1. Choose a backing track that you like and work on each of the points for at least 5 minutes.
2. Record yourself practicing each of the points and share the recording here if you want some feedback.
3. Listen to what you recorded and choose the parts that you like more of each example.
4. Re-learn your favorite parts and try to record them again.
5. Listen to it one more time.
6. Work a bit more on the structure on the phrases and re-record parts if it's necessary.
7. Share the result here or at Gab's Army!

Posted by: Aris Nov 12 2014, 03:05 PM

Hi Cosmin,

Thank you for your review and the valuable feedback.

I agree with your comments on each of the points. Especially points 4&5, 6, 9 took me a long time to record them over the backing track. Unfortunately, I would need a lot more time to get rid of every timing issue and other technical problems before I had more decent takes.

Also, it is very encouraging that you see some musicality in the parts.
I would like to do everything in my ability to progress as much as possible. I hope one day I will be also at that certain point that you mentioned where I will be able to let the things I hear in my head come out on my music.

Thank you so much for your invitation in working together.
I am already working with Gabriel on a personalized routine which I am very happy with. Working with you at the same time would be a great opportunity as well which I would not like to miss.
What I am most worried about is making sufficient time for it due to work and family obligations. Now, I'm trying to practice at least an hour per day which is not always feasible and I feel it is slowing down my progress already. Unfortunately, I mostly play just before I go to bed.

It would be great if you could propose a way that we could still make it work.
I will also send you all the details you need according to the questionnaire included in the link that you sent me.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Thanks a lot!

Yes, sometimes I felt good with an idea but most of the times I had to force it just to demonstrate a certain point with no interesting ideas coming up.

I hope I did not mess up your plans for having a post about Guidelines to Satriani's phrasing :| I guess this could still serve this purpose as well.

However the suggested exercise sounds great and must be very creative.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Nov 12 2014, 03:34 PM

You didn't mess anything, this is exactly what I was thinking you should do with this analysis! Spreading it to the world. It's also interesting if you continue exploring this stuff, maybe expanding it with some other Satriani's song or even better with some other guitarists! What about Vai, Timmons, Friedman, Petrucci, SRV?

I can imagine Aris's book of phrasing in the future....

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 12 2014, 10:08 PM

Very cool thread Aris, by working analytically like this you will have a huge advantage over people with 'rock n roll' approach only.

Maybe you could share the backing you used so others can show their approach to question and answer? I would like to have a go at it as well.

At the end of the day we might get wiser!

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 13 2014, 09:09 AM

Hey matey - I understand the situation but I must say that one hour a day would be a bit too little, to cram up stuff from both me and Gabi.

I am sure that Gabi is already doing a great job with you so you should stick to the program which he has prepared for you - since you have taken the time to write me in the mentoring program thread, I will tell you how I would approach things and then you can decide wether you would like to try my approach as well. But as I said - cramming a lot of information in very little amount of time will never lead to anything good.

Posted by: Aris Nov 13 2014, 11:31 AM

Hi Kristofer,

Thank you for your advise and interest.

I have the backing track at home. I will do a small correction that I noticed in the drum loop to make the groove feel more natural and send it tonight.

I am also very interested to listen to other improvisation possibilities so it would be great if you would also like to share something on the same backing track or even a different one.



Hi Gabriel,

Nice to hear this.
Definitely! I will use the same approach to any songs that sound interesting to me and check the recommended guitarists as well.

Posted by: Aris Nov 13 2014, 12:22 PM

Hi Cosmin,

Yes I really like working with Gabriel.
I appreciate your proposal and any suggestions you may have for me but as you said Gabi's is already doing a great job with me and since I already struggle with time, more information given the circumstances may not possibly help.

Thanks a lot!

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 13 2014, 12:28 PM

No problem mate I just took a little time to point some important aspects out, so please take a look here: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=50025&view=findpost&p=700402

Hope this helps

Cosmin

Posted by: Aris Nov 13 2014, 04:02 PM

Hi Cosmin,

Thanks again for taking the time to give me detailed pointers and suggestions. I really appreciate it.
To be honest most if not all points are also pointed out by Gabriel and we are working on it. It surely helps to have as much details as possible.

Also, it is great that you mentioned the early wake up solution. It is true that I 'm feeling pretty worn out from the day at the time I go to practice so I have also been thinking about the early wake up lately. Now that you also mentioned it, I am convinced that this will work better and my brain will work better then. It's also nice to go to bed when I need to although when I start playing I really forget about it.
I will try to figure out some changes first before I can practice early in the morning since currently my gear is in the bedroom and that would wake up my wife also.

The only downside is that I will have to drop everything when it's time to leave for work so I won't show up late But this will be a small price to pay.

Thank you very much for the valuable advice.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 13 2014, 09:56 PM

Great - it's a perfect backing for this thread, and it is also interesting to have the same reference point as to what can be done solo-wise. After all the backing track is probably more important than the lead - in terms of establishing the musical frame.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Nov 14 2014, 12:58 AM

Interesting idea Kris. I'm also interested in giving this approaches a try over the backing. It's a good idea to see how each of us can have different results using the same backing and also the same approach to connect phrases.

This thread is turning out very interesting.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 14 2014, 10:39 AM

Hey mate! Nothing to it I gave you the details, because I think they are important and I was sure Gabi mentioned them as well, but you know the old saying - 'When two people tell you that you are drunk, you will have to trust them and go straight to bed'

Now that you know very, very well on what you need to focus on, I think that re-thinking your schedule in order to get the most out of your hour, would trigger some amazing changes.

I would first move my gear and practice place in another room where I would not bother anyone in the morning and then I would practice going to sleep as early as possible, in order to be ableto get the necessary sleep and also wake up in time to practice my daily hour

That's how I'd approach the situation

Posted by: Aris Nov 14 2014, 12:15 PM

Hi Cosmin,

Yes I' m pretty drunk for sure! never doubted it For sure having your details also help me draw the picture even more.
Yes, finding a new place for my gear is interesting and challenging. But I will work something out.

I 'll let you know how it goes after I do this for a while.

Thanks again my friend!



Hi Kristofer,

Here is the backing track I have used for the posted melodies.
I would be glad to listen to other ideas over the same backing track or even a different one.
They could also be used as reference to demonstrate different ways.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Nov 14 2014, 03:03 PM

Cool! Thanks for the backing track! I'm already trying the approaches over it.

As many of you know I just finished the level 1 of my improvisation course at the Vchat. I'm giving the complementary lessons and exercises in order to be ready for level 2.

I think that these analysis made by Aris is very useful to add to the course so today I will be experimenting and discussing about each of these approaches at Vchat. The session starts at 21 hs so I hope to see you there, with your guitars, showing how you also apply these ideas to your phrasing.

Who is in?


Improvisation Course notes: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=42832&view=findpost&p=699881

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 14 2014, 04:00 PM

Thanks a lot Aris!

When recording my take I was constantly thinking about trying to mimic a conversation between two people.

 kris_take_call_n_response.mp3 ( 2.49MB ) : 180

Examples:

00:03 person 1
00:08 answer from person 2
00:10 new statement from person 1
00:15 new answer from person 2
00:18 longer statement from person 1, which is repeated twice with a variation
00:30 person 2 now fully agrees and praises person 1

I prolonged the backing track after my take in case anyone else wants to record after my lines!

The backing is in G major 120 bpm. I used G lydian, G major and G major pentatonic scales when soloing. As well as the G major arpeggio and the D7 arpeggio.

To make it more interesting I used some outside notes (= bad sounding notes), which I bent up to "good sounding" notes. Can you hear where those notes are?

Posted by: klasaine Nov 14 2014, 07:39 PM

Good exercise!
That progression is perfect for the task because each chord lasts long enough that you're forced to play 'over the changes'.

Here's mine. The end of the tack comes up quick. It took me by surprise.

 DR000139.mp3 ( 695.16K ) : 159


Not so much 'question and answer' but thematic development.
The first lick I play (:00 - :04) is the germ that is used throughout in gradually higher registers as well as two other keys. I get to it with scale or arpeggio type passages.

*I analyzed my playing after the fact.
Other than just thinking melodically I didn't consciously decide to do that. It just felt 'right'.

Posted by: Aris Nov 14 2014, 10:07 PM

Hi Kristofer,

It's very useful to have this detailed analysis and to visualize the solo as a real conversation and maybe it will give some ideas.
I admit, that it is not always clear to me if I'm listening to the question/statement or the response part. Or where exactly the solo switches to the response. Your analysis helps me to interpret the melody correctly and see where the melody turns to a response etc.

Some melodies are clearer for me to interpret, other melodies such as Klasaine's (which is also really cool - melodic and still intense) is not so easy to understand if I m listening to the response or the question. Is there some kind of soft rule to realize this or it's a matter of experience and instinct?

I guess the notes outside the scale should be at 00:05, 00:13, 00:32. Is this true?

Posted by: klasaine Nov 14 2014, 10:36 PM

If you listen to mine a few times you'll hear that I play a new phrase every two measures (8 counts). Your chords change every 4 measures (16 counts) and I play two phrases per chord change. You can think of that as one question and one answer per chord change. I call it idea and development.

For me, the 'soft' rule would be ... "think Like a singer or a horn player" in that they have to take a breath once in awhile.
Also, the answer doesn't have to be the same length as the question. Nor does it have to be on the same topic. Think of it as a conversation, not a test.

*I'm also thinking of each chord change as a new key G maj, D7, C maj, D7, G maj.
Yes, theoretically it is a I - V - IV - V - I in G major but four measures per chord is an eternity (in musical time). If you only think of scales in 'relation' to G as the root tone you'll constantly be focusing on G notes and tending to begin phrases on G - which gets old, fast.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 14 2014, 11:49 PM

First, thanks Aris for this cool topic. Not only are we covering some very interesting ground but you also lured Ken into recording a splendid solo =)

These methods of breaking down solo construction are basically just tools, and you can probably come up with your own way of visualizing solos - and thereby creating tools customized for you.

The important part is to not only break down what you are hearing (ie learn solos note for note) but try to understand why a phrase sounds the way it does: Was it really spectacular note choice that made that lick stand out, or was it because it was played aggressively after a super smooth lick, and this created a cool musical contrast?

There are no definite answers so what matters are your personal conclusions which you have reached as a result of your own analysis.

I have a bunch of such conclusions that I use when creating music (such as this question and response technique) - and some of them are very silly and would be very hard to explain to someone else, but they seem to do the job.

Like Ken said, pauses are good indicators of this. Pauses are also a very fast way to bump up the level of musicality in your improvisations - they force us to define the phrases better and give important breathing room to the music.



This is spot on, although 00:32 is probably my bending/vibrato which should have been a bit more in tune..!

---

If you (Aris) or anyone else wants to have a go at this, I would suggest the following:

To achieve the question and answer effect - play one lick, pause for a second or two, then play another lick which sounds very different from the first one, and then pause again. Then play a lick which is similar to first one, pause - and then play another lick which is similar to the second one.

You can use the E minor pentatonic scale over Aris' track:

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/scalegenerator

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 15 2014, 05:55 PM

Nothing to it, mate - looking forward to hearing your impressions after trying the new approach. Thank you for sharing the backing with us, as well!

Posted by: Aris Nov 17 2014, 02:07 PM

Hi Guys,

Of course the topic was originally Gabriel's idea and I'm really excited about it too.

Both Kristofer's and Ken's analysis is being really helpful.
With Ken's analysis I can now listen to the different phrases and distinct which is the idea or the development. It is also very clear that both idea-development pairs are played over the same chord.

Also with Kristofer's breakdown on the approach he followed for questions-responses, I have all I need to make my own solo using the same question response concept and I'm currently working on finding some interesting phrases for it.

Both of you guys have helped me see there are different approaches (statement-response & idea-development) and also understand the difference in the results. I even tried to play based on the two different concepts and I can see that the results are indeed very different depending on the approach followed and it's becoming very interesting. Unfortunately, I first need to properly play my ideas over the backing track before I can send you the two different examples I have.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 18 2014, 12:16 PM

Hey mate - great to hear this analysis paid off - Kris and Ken sure did a great job. Now, as you noticed, you need to focus on polishing your technique, in order to really make your ideas shine. I think that a healthy approach to this, would be to try the concepts by using simple phrases that you can control and working on expression, rather then complexity or speed.

In the mean time, look at the lessons that you have been practicing so far and take out the phrases which you like most. Adapt them to the backing track on which you choose to improvise, by transposing them to that certain key and see how you can alter them, in order to maintain the ideas in the concepts This is one approach that will not only enrich your vocabulary, but also grow your skills. The ones that feel difficult to execute - try to slow them down and practice them against the metronome, paying attention to timing, expression, groove and clean playing.

Posted by: Aris Nov 18 2014, 01:34 PM

Hi Cosmin,

Thanks so much for this tip, I really needed it today since I didn't know where to start. It was really frustrating last night while I was trying to follow Kristofer's recipe with repeating questions. I struggle too much in finding a distinct melody for using it as a signature and repeat it with small variations. I tend to mess up every phrase so that it ends up sounding as a completely different phrase every time I try to repeat it.

I have learned some different licks in the past but I have complete lack of sense on how to use a lick when the backing track environment is different. I will follow your suggestion to copy some licks from the lessons (or other ones I like) and transpose them in the same key as the backing track.
However, this is not so easy for me to visualize so I 'll try forcing it for a start. I hope something will come out this time or else.....I 'll do some stage diving instead

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 19 2014, 10:45 AM

Nothing to it man - glad I could help Now... why not do both? Stage diving is awesomee - I tried it once or twice Well, you have to start somewhere, so c'mon - start with your favorite lick in the lessons you have learned here so far and post an idea based on that - deal?

Posted by: Aris Nov 22 2014, 11:07 AM

Hi all,

Finally!!!! I recorded a sample based on Kristopher's guidelines using (maybe too many) licks from the lessons.

I'm sorry for the sound. Cubase would let me export an audio file only using MONO (not stereo) and this took away much of the edge of the guitar. This is the best take after hours trying it. Still has bending and timing issues but the idea should be present.

Below is a breakdown of the idea:
----------------------------------------
The second question appears at 00:004 much similar to the first
The third question appears at 00:008 (similar to the other two) where it is repeated three times
The last question is totally different just to add some variety at 00:14

I used licks from lessons: tasty etude, guitar loves piano, social distortion style lesson and a couple of parts from The clash - brand new cadillac.

What do you think?

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 22 2014, 09:23 PM

Hey matey - glad to see that you are following the suggestions!

I think the idea is good as a principle but there are three important aspects which you should take into account:

- there are indeed too many licks included and they sound crowded together - try to space them up a bit, even if that means using less licks - you can use 2-3 of them but in a shortened version, with enough notes to make a statement
- the timing and articulation are very important so please make sure that whatever final form these phrases will have, you will spend some time in making them sound as good as possible in respect to timing, bending and vibrato

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Nov 23 2014, 12:07 AM

Awesome Aris, great to get a follow up on this.

I am pretty much on the same page as you and Cosmin - there is a little too much of the good stuff here. To your defense I must say my take was a bit "crowded" as well, so I can understand where this came from.

Could you record a new take and try the following?

1) Let the backing play few seconds beats before you start playing. This will establish the scenery and the listener will hear everything you play after this in relation to the backing track. Also, by introducing the routine to first listen to the backing track before you start your playing, you will start developing a sense for musical interaction. If you just start playing imediately you will not communicate with the other instruments [virtual, in this case].

2) Then play two/three notes, and then pause (you can let the last note ring if you want to). Vibrato and bending is your friend here. By restraining yourself to just a few notes you will force yourself, to choose the notes that you think sound best (great ear training). This will also turn your lines more narrative and melodic.

3) Pause again for at least a few seconds/beats. By repeating the play/pause procedure you will work on your timing (ie ending and beginning your phrases on time), and in the long run it will turn your phrases into better defined musical statements - as opposed to just long combinations of patterns.

4) Repeat #2, but add just a slight extra twist at the end. This could be 2-4 faster notes, or just a different idea/short lick. Keep it short.

5) pause again.

6) Now play something completely different, maybe using a different rhythm, or play on the low strings (if you started on the high string in #2 and #4). Try to still keep it fairly short, don't play too many notes!

---

I would suggest you don't record anything more than this. If you get this first 6 points right - you will have an awesome start to something melodic, so just focus on getting this right. Less is more!

It will be great to see if you take the challenge. Also, anyone else reading this may of course record as well and get feedback here (see above for backings).

Posted by: Aris Nov 23 2014, 01:40 PM

Thanks both of you guys,

Your comments are extremely helpful and the provided steps just put everything in order for me. At this stage I need to do a lot of things differently so it helps to have such a procedure to start with.

I 'm on the task and I will let you know for more advice

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Nov 24 2014, 10:17 AM

Hey buddy, glad to hear that we can be of help. Just let us know how it goes and if any questions arise along the way, write us here Kris' has pointed out the steps and I suggested the technical aspects, so combine all our thoughts and see what you can brew Remember - less is more, in a lot of situations and it's always easier to start with little and add up along the way.

Posted by: Aris Dec 3 2014, 10:21 PM

Hey Guys,

I'm finally back.

I think my first proper morning wake up did the job well. I have prepared most of the solo based on Kristofer's steps, also keeping in mind Gabriel's and Cosmin's comments.

I hope most parts are on time now except for the last two seconds maybe. I didn't want to let it wait for longer until it's perfect. I thought that I could use your advice sooner rather than later.

Here is the URL for the track: https://soundcloud.com/aris-33/improv-on-kristofer9

My approach on this was the following:

1. The first phrase starts at 00:08 with the question
2. At 00:11 ->00:18, I play a response to the first phrase
3. At 00:20->00:25, I repeat the question with a slight twist adding some notes (as it is quoted by Kristofer in step 4 below)
- Here I notice that there is some tension at the end of this question which remains unresolved
4: So At 00:28-> 00:35, I play the response to the previous question which is a slight variation of it but ending on the note of the next chord (which seems to resolve the question)
5. At 00:37 I guess this works as a small bridge towards the part that follows on the low strings at 00:40(this is quoted by Kristofer as step 6)
6. At 00:48 is the response to the above question in point 5
- I just figured it out today, so it is not played so fluently
7. At 00:55 -> 1:00 is the last repeated question and the response could be the following notes although there is no pause. I played it as one phrase since it also popped up in mind one phrase. All questions and the response in this point are very similar to the original question in points 1 and 3. The last second is not timed correctly but i didn't want to wait for one more day after such a long time of silence on my side.

I 'm looking forward to your comments and advice. What do you think?

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 3 2014, 10:48 PM

Even though we're on the topic of 'question & repsonse' I am going to answer your question with another question:

What do you think about this take? (when comparing to your previous)

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 4 2014, 09:48 AM

Hey Aris Great to see you are working hard on this one, mate!

As Kris very well asked - What do you feel about your take? One of the important aspects of making music is to make it as musical as possible and to allow it to transmit something. If you just follow technicallities and forget the utmost purpose, you will not allow yourself to speak freely through music. I know it might sound too esotheric or philosophic, but I would suggest you to take a moment and think a bit about creating a balance among the directions given by Kris and the things you hear in your head.

Also, I would approach timing and dynamics in this take - some of the phrases sound a bit unsure in terms of execution from the timing perspective and some of the phrases are a bit too static - they don't move in any direction.

I would suggest you to take the phrases and see where do they begin and where they could end - allow them to take direction.

Another thing you could try, would be to take another look over your favorite lessons and see where Kris' concepts can be found in phrases from those lessons and use the adaptation method again, but this time oriented on the directions Kris gave you

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 4 2014, 10:05 AM

I hope I didn't scare you with this question!

I think you have solved the problem with this take, and with this approach you no longer have any structural issues in your solo. Please remember the lessons learned from this thread as soon you play lead lines the coming time, it will help shape your phrasing in a very musical way.

This success also means you have taken an important step, and you can now move on to other departments (see Cosmin's reply).

If I were you, the most enjoyable way of approaching this would be to find a lesson that you like - and study the details of one single lick and focus only on that. This way you don't need to think as much about all the theoretical aspects, just focus on making your playing sound as good as the instructor's.

For example you could choose any lick from this lesson: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Slow-Blues-Phrasing/
(feel free to choose a different lesson though)

If you want to me to keep giving you feedback here, please choose a super short section and record it over a backing. Then let me know which passage you were attempting to duplicate.

Your progress is very promising!

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Dec 4 2014, 02:56 PM

Hi Aris! We are also discussing about these takes at Gab's Army and I now discover that my opinion is very related to what Cosmin and Kris are saying here. It's very interesting to see how your phrasing is evolving and I can say that the next step in order to make this solo grow more is to work on expression things like vibrato, dynamics, different ways to reach a note (bend, pre-bend, slide, harmonics). It doesn't mean that you have to use everything on each phrase, but be sure that a phrase can grow a lot using this ideas. (Remember that Vai video that I shared with you).

By the way, I think that this thread has evolved so good, and that it has been a very interesting and inspiring journey that influenced my own playing. I hope that this thread or these type of threads keep on growing at GMC.

Posted by: Aris Dec 4 2014, 04:52 PM

Hi Guys,

Thanks a lot for your feedback!
I really want to take it to the next level and your feedback proves to be very helpful.

- I think it's definitely more melodic (perhaps the most melodic piece i ve ever played so far) and it shows some signs of soul compared to previous work.
- Another huge difference is that I can distinguish the different phrases and responses. The last phrase sounds a bit vague though.
- Another thing is that each phrase has enough room to breath followed by big silence gaps, but I 'm also concerned if the large silence gaps may cause the audience to loose interest.
- Timing is improved but still need to work on it. I guess it comes with experience and playing time.

Based on your feedback I also noticed the following:
It is still lacking expression tools and dynamics. I use only 1 slide, a few bends and some badly played vibratos. I will work more on the vibrato lesson that Gabriel sent me.
From Cosmin's feedback I noticed also that the solo does not use much of the fretboard (different octaves) and pretty much it ends very close (on the fretboard) where it started from. Maybe this is what Cosmin describes as a static melody.

What I feel about it? I 'm not happy comparing it to music made by other guitar players but I see it's starting to sound like music which makes me happy.
After your comments, I feel even better since I realized that I have made use of a few musical aspects for the first time( eg. structure, calls & responses). So reflecting back on this take, I feel that I have made a crucial step in my journey towards making music. Of course, this would not have happened without your support and I feel grateful for your help and direction here at the thread and GMC. Kristofer's steps also forced me to follow a well defined path like a dummy so I was able to focus mostly on getting the structure right and forget the million other things that I have to do right.


I think you refer to the times that I 'm not strumming at the right time and/or with the correct loudness. Correct?


I listened to Kris' video and I can feel the direction of the phrases there but I'm not sure I can figure out what the player does to give the direction feeling to his phrases.
Are my assumptions below correct?
- covering some ground on the fretboard before ending up on the same or a different note
- playing a different compatible note than the key of the chord played at the time
I 'll try to analyze it more though to understand what I should be looking for.



I wanted to try this as it was also suggested in the earlier stages of the thread but my version was too crowded of different licks and sounded robotic. I should give it another shot to see how it will end up after following the same guidelines.



I will surely pick a lick and send it for feedback here. There are plenty of interesting and melodic licks in the video and I really like Mark Knopfler's style.
I think I would pick the lick played at 00:51->01:10 (part 5 of the lesson). It looks like a classic one which could be used in most rock songs. Let me know if I should only focus on the first phrase of this section to be super short.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Dec 4 2014, 10:39 PM

Yes that lick is a cool choice, and yes it is also a good idea to just focus on the very first phrase. If you can get one right, the coming ones will be much easier.

It will be very interesting to hear how this works out for you.



Yes this is a very motivated thought, however I can assure these kinds of silences will never be boring. It's all about what preceeds and follows the silence.

Listener anticipation will be bigger because of the silences - but that is also our intention. We want that anticipation to grow while we also feed it - that means we are creating good music.



@ Cosmin, could you be more specific in your feedback so we can understand what sections you are referring to and what you suggest doing instead?

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 5 2014, 09:44 AM

Hey Aris - your assumptions are correct in terms of debating direction:

- take note of where you are and where you want to get on the fretboard There was this interview with Richie Kotzen, in which he stated that he sometimes looks at his playing as making a statement with a phrase that can be static and moving to the next one with the aid of a run or a more dynamic phrase. So, dissecting this a bit, why not experimenting with the following idea:

-> think of 2 different theme like phrases, something that can keep the listener's attention on what you are playing and that can stay with him after the piece has finished. Get inspiration from your favorite guitar themes
-> find 2 spots in which you can play each of them (play each in 2 separate octaves)
-> find at least 3 different run variations (scale based, arpeggio based - your choice) that can link theme number one in octave one with theme number 1 in octave 2 and the same for the other theme.
-> link theme number 1 in octave 1 with theme number 2 in octave 2 and so on, mixing them among themselves until you find various combinations that can sound interesting
-> experiment with picking louder or softer, vibrating and bending so that you can have a few elements that involve dynamics - as you mentioned, the playing seems a bit stale because it is linear in terms of dynamics. I am not thinking of strumming here but about the main voice - the lead line that catches the listener's attention - that is in front of everything, in the recording at a first glance, correct?

This will not only give you direction and remove the static feeling but also add dynamics/life to the recording. Try to stick to this small idea/section that I described above, so that your foucs will unbiased - you will get far better results with small sections rather then spreading yourself thin at this stage on bigger portions of the track Let's see what you get, ok?

Posted by: Aris Dec 5 2014, 03:58 PM

Yeah!!! more steps to follow. As I said before, following steps at this stage, make me feel more certain that I 'm focusing towards the right direction. Also it did the job well for me last time. So, keep them coming

I will take up both tasks proposed and I will post my takes here. Thanks a lot you guys!


@Cosmin: Yes you 're right about the picking loudness. I did not pay any attention to dynamics while I was making up and playing these melodies. At least not consciously. I will keep it in mind for the coming melodies.

Considering how long it took me the last time, I expect this will also take me a while until I can find some good lines to complete your task but I hope I will not need very long.
One last thing in order to ensure that I got everything down correctly - could you explain what you define as a "run"?

Sorry but I 'm slowly getting familiar with the terminologies.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 6 2014, 04:20 PM

Hey mate there's no rush and as I said, the less you focus on, the better the results will be - so please try to tackle the described task first things first About the idea of a run - it's a link sequence between two phrases which are more or less static.

A good example for a run would be this one:



0:22 - 0:25 - this is a fast one, but the idea is that it connects two different phrases which are more static than the run itself. It's actually a scale sequence Let me know if it's clear to you,mate

Posted by: Aris Dec 6 2014, 10:07 PM

\\

Hi Cosmin,

Thanks for the clarification.
I see... a scale sequence. That's what I thought too. I take it that such scale sequences travel across the fretboard either ascending or descending the scale.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 7 2014, 09:39 AM

Indeed they do I found something for ya - something old

A few years ago, I hosted a series of video chat sessions based on sequeencing scales You may find the ideas in the GP files attached to these threads pretty interesting, I think

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=39243&view=findpost&p=592204
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=39243&view=findpost&p=593394

See what sort of runs you can make out using the principles behind the licks in these threads - they are all based on odd groups of notes

Posted by: Aris Dec 8 2014, 02:49 PM

Hi Cosmin,

Thanks for this detailed information.
Not only it is crystal clear but I could use these runs for the task.

Posted by: Cosmin Lupu Dec 11 2014, 10:28 AM

Most excellent! Nothing to it mate - I am more than curious to see how you adapted the licks

Posted by: Aris Jan 22 2015, 05:38 PM

Hi Cosmin,

A long time has passed since our last communication but I'm working on many guitar stuff in parallel and none comes easy for me at this stage.

I have recorded the first samples trying to play the discussed lick but I can see that I'm not there yet. I just thought it will be nice to send you something so that you can see where I am at this point.

So, I have sent you two very similar takes. Take 2 has a stronger beginning as it should be but it does not sound that clean and I am not so sure about the timing with the backing track. Also the first bend is problematic in both takes as I should play (bend->slight release->bend->vibrato) instead of (bend->vibrato). I 'll take it slower before I record the next takes so as to get used to it.

I appreciate any comments you may have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0hbOrTE6Ok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k149hUhnmGc

@Cosmin: I haven't forgotten about our drill, I am still working on some final licks and I hope I will have it all in place soon.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Jan 22 2015, 10:08 PM

Thanks a lot for the update Aris - I was going to ask you how this worked out.

First - wow this should have a major impact on your playing, have you started noticing it yet? If you have the patience to work on a detailed level to nail nuances like this - it is your fast ticket to pro playing.

So I think this is extremely promising.

When comparing with Piotrs playing (part 5 here: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Slow-Blues-Phrasing/ ) the biggest difference is your hand and thumb position. And this is probably the reason why your vibrato sounds very different from Piotr's. Can you notice how he uses the lower part of his index finger as a leverage point?


Having in mind our previous discussion and your earlier playing examples - I must say phrasing and bend accuracy is very promising here (especially take 2).

It would be interesting to know if you already sense any difference when jamming?

Posted by: Aris Jan 23 2015, 02:36 PM

Hi Kristopher,

Your words are really encouraging and motivating, so next time I can practice this and other stuff with a smile on my face I know I still have a long way to go but I feel much better to hear that I have already taken out some important issues on the way.

I am also very impressed with the problem that you noticed. Thankfully, on the last moment I decided to send you video takes instead of just sound clips. Otherwise, I would have never known of this magical tip. Also you have illustrated the point perfectly so I can see exactly what you mean. I'll try it and let you know how it works out with a new video take too.

Unfortunately, I haven't been jamming a lot but I should not neglect to do it. I have been playing mostly like a robot since I am trying to make time so I can at least practice my routine every day and other tasks from this thread. However, while I 'm working on Cosmin's improvisation task, I was able to come up with some nice ideas in terms of what to play and where to place it over the backing track and I guess I am more aware about pausing. Also sometimes I find myself thinking if I should play certain notes louder or softer, so maybe I am developing an early sense of dynamics.

Many thanks again for your words and the great feedback.

Posted by: Aris Mar 21 2015, 11:17 PM

Hi Kristofer,

Sorry for taking so long to send this next take but I am trying to practice my all the stuff in my routine equally and since my time is very limited I tend to go more for the stuff I feel more confident with. Perhaps, it should be the other way round.

Since we talked about it last time, I believe I have become more sensitive to the feel of using different techniques and going after more specific feel.

Regarding this take, I still notice that my first bend needs a little more sustain during the vibrato.
I have also used the attached classic rock sound patch with tube screamer (very light gain and slightly over mid tone) to make the sound more lively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbBI1e0X4tE

@Cosmin: This task has taken too long already, but at least now I have all the parts down, so its only a matter of playing it decently.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 22 2015, 10:55 PM

Excellent Aris, your hand looks so much more comfortable now!

If you haven't already, I would recommend you to join the journey most of us are travelling - which consists of the following:

1 learn something new

2 record it (either by jamming around with the idea over a backing or by playing the exact lick you learned) and determine what you can improve for your next recording.

Repeat ad infinitum.


And why not join the ongoing collab? http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=54081

Very well done!

Posted by: Aris Mar 23 2015, 04:28 PM

Hi Kristofer, this is great news for me. I see that your tip about the pivot point during bends feels much better and the bends feel more consistent now

I also checked the collab and it is a very nice opportunity to have feedback on all these musical aspects that I should be focusing on when trying to fit melodies over musical arrangements. I already learned a couple of tips by reading to your introduction note. I imagine much more to come. Thank you for the invitation, I am glad to participate.
I 'll do my best with the deadline as well. I guess I understood the date correctly: 08-April-2015

I hope I will have something to send soon.

Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Mar 24 2015, 09:46 AM

Exactly! I hope to see you there