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GMC Forum _ CHILL OUT _ Do You Believe In A God Or Gods?

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 21 2008, 02:02 PM

I'm a bit bored and was interested in how many GMC'ers are religous.

Theist - believes in the existence of a God or Gods
Agnostic - isn't sure about the existence of a God or Gods
Atheist - does not believe in the existence of a God or Gods

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 02:05 PM

Atheist.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 21 2008, 02:06 PM

Agnostic. A lot of things are made up in my opinion but I think there is definitely some truth.

Posted by: Goliath Mar 21 2008, 02:19 PM

I responded before reading your definitions. I replied Agnostic not so much because I doubt a creator so much as I doubt religion. Plus I build churches. I get to see what goes on behind close doors really made me appalled by these so called "religious leaders" who are the absolute biggest hypocrites I have ever met.

Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 02:32 PM

Believer. smile.gif

Posted by: Robwylde Mar 21 2008, 02:34 PM

Good Friday! I'm a Christian (Believe in God). Religion is a topic everyone has an opinion on and I respect everyone's stance. One question I have is if you don't believe in God how do we explain creation? Take our body's for example, the way our fingers can fly on the fret board and our mind telling them we're to go.

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Mar 21 2008, 02:37 PM

QUOTE (Robwylde @ Mar 21 2008, 01:34 PM) *
Good Friday! I'm a Christian (Believe in God). Religion is a topic everyone has an opinion on and I respect everyone's stance. One question I have is if you don't believe in God how do we explain creation? Take our body's for example, the way our fingers can fly on the fret board and our mind telling them we're to go.

That is why I'm agnostic. I wouldn't like to say what happened. There could well be a god who started it all off. Something had to start creation.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 02:39 PM

QUOTE (Robwylde @ Mar 21 2008, 02:34 PM) *
One question I have is if you don't believe in God how do we explain creation?

Evolution by natural selection. And i wouldnt use the word "creation" tongue.gif

Posted by: Duncan Mar 21 2008, 02:44 PM

The argument I don't like is the one about how perfect the conditions in our solar system are for life to exist on earth. I don't believe this was any God, it was just chance. If conditions weren't perfect we wouldn't be here. IF conditions were different we could be on some other planet.

Posted by: Wallimann Mar 21 2008, 02:46 PM

Believer for me. I believe there is only one true God, creator of all things. :-)
That belief is actually my only hope. :-)

Posted by: fkalich Mar 21 2008, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 21 2008, 08:32 AM) *
Believer. smile.gif


same. besides the fact that as mysterious physical reality is to our puny brains, the implications of not believing in some God to who you are answerable are not acceptable.

If one says he is an atheist, well if you can takes someones money and bash in his head, and feel you can get away with it, why not do it? Makes no sense to hold back, if you really can get away with it. You are saying you are a spider, take what you can, if you can get away with it, do it. If you kill a million people, what is the big deal, you are an atheist after all. Nothing to answer for. Only thing you have to ask yourself is, "can I get away with it".

That is why you do not be an atheist, the implications are not acceptable. It does not matter if believing is correct or not, all that matters is that you believe.

Posted by: Wallimann Mar 21 2008, 02:47 PM

QUOTE (Duncan @ Mar 21 2008, 09:44 AM) *
The argument I don't like is the one about how perfect the conditions in our solar system are for life to exist on earth. I don't believe this was any God, it was just chance. If conditions weren't perfect we wouldn't be here. IF conditions were different we could be on some other planet.



I am with you about the conditions that are not perfect.
My explanation to that is sin. :-)

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 02:50 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 21 2008, 02:46 PM) *
same. besides the fact that as mysterious physical reality is to our puny brains, the implications of not believing in some God to who you are answerable are not acceptable.

If one says he is an atheist, well if you can takes someones money and bash in his head, and feel you can get away with it, why not do it? Makes no sense to hold back, if you really can get away with it. You are saying you are a spider, take what you can, if you can get away with it, do it. If you kill a million people, what is the big deal, you are an atheist after all. Nothing to answer for. Only thing you have to ask yourself is, "can I get away with it".

That is why you do not be an atheist, the implications are not acceptable. It does not matter if believing is correct or not, all that matters is that you believe.

Hmm, if i understood you correct, you mean that atheists cant be moral? And basically atheists can just run around kill and rape people because there isnt any ultimate justice? Just checking if i got it right.

Posted by: DeepRoots Mar 21 2008, 02:52 PM

I chose agnostic- and this may well turn into a gigantic thread...religious debate? This could go on for a while...

Posted by: fkalich Mar 21 2008, 02:56 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 08:50 AM) *
Hmm, if i understood you correct, you mean that atheists cant be moral? And basically atheists can just run around kill and rape people because there isnt any ultimate justice? Just checking if i got it right.


no, we put them in prison if they do that.

I am saying that a true atheist is totally amoral by definition. it is simple logic.


I am not saying you are amoral. You probably just THINK you are an atheist. Really you are not.

But a true atheist is like Stalin. No problem killing 20 million for political gain. That is true atheism.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 03:03 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 21 2008, 02:56 PM) *
no, we put them in prison if they do that.

I am saying that a true atheist is totally amoral by definition. it is simple logic.


I am not saying you are amoral. You probably just THINK you are an atheist. Really you are not.

But a true atheist is like Stalin. No problem killing 20 million for political gain. That is true atheism.

What you are saying is pretty much ridiculous. I am an atheist. An atheist is one who does not accept the claim that there is a god. How can that make anyone a bad person? What Stalin, Mao etc. did was not because of atheism. Atheism doesnt motivate anyone to do anything like that. The fact that they were atheist is completely irrelevant to what they did. If they were christian, or muslim, or jewish or whatever, they would still have been as big sick assholes as they were.

Atheism is a position on one single issue: Is there a God? An atheist do not believe so.

Posted by: Maximus Mar 21 2008, 03:05 PM

I am a member of this fairly new denomination. Check it out:

http://churchofspongebob.tripod.com/home.html

Posted by: Mrblomme Mar 21 2008, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Maximus @ Mar 21 2008, 03:05 PM) *
I am a member of this fairly new denomination. Check it out:

http://churchofspongebob.tripod.com/home.html

I just LOVE spongebob. laugh.gif

I'm Atheist btw wink.gif

Posted by: Duncan Mar 21 2008, 03:11 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 02:03 PM) *
What you are saying is pretty much ridiculous. I am an atheist. An atheist is one who does not accept the claim that there is a god. How can that make anyone a bad person? What Stalin, Mao etc. did was not because of atheism. Atheism doesnt motivate anyone to do anything like that. The fact that they were atheist is completely irrelevant to what they did. If they were christian, or muslim, or jewish or whatever, they would still have been as big sick assholes as they were.

Atheism is a position on one single issue: Is there a God? An atheist do not believe so.


Completely agree on every point. What that other guy was saying was ridiculous. Just because someone doesn't follow a religion, or believe in a God, doesn't mean they don't have any morals, or know the difference between right and wrong.

And I really don't see how you could use Stalin as an example, that is just crazy. It is like me saying God supposably killed everyone on earth apart from some guy and a boat. Is he atheist?

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 21 2008, 03:16 PM

I am a nihlist.. one way or another i just don't care.. but the idea of reality is too mind boggling for the mind to grasp.. it seems pointless to try, for this i want to bring to GMC's attention the construction of the Large Hadron Collider being constructed somewhere in Europe. These divices are used to discover information about the creation of the universe.. it seems odd to me that we have discovered these types of divices in a world "God" created. The creation of the universe is mind boggling.. even the idea the big bang theory still says the universe started as an infinatly dense object.. which leads to the question how did that object get there.. relgion is just an excuse to give the answer what is reality and to answer the thought of.. why are we here.. if we listen to religion then we listen to a control factor.. if i was a christian.. i would probably commit suicide.. for the purpose of my soul rising to heaven.. but nooo suicide is bad.. it just seems pointless.. live your life and don't question reality.. we are here.. you can feel, see, touch, hear, smell.. use those senses and enjoy life.. there is nothing else to it..

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 21 2008, 03:17 PM

I believe that this thread will get pretty huge soon laugh.gif

Posted by: Goliath Mar 21 2008, 03:19 PM

More people have died in the name of religion than probably anything else in history. Salem Witch trials, the Inquisition, Crusades (both sides there, not faulting Christianity or Muslims entirely, Muslims attacked what they believed to be theirs, Christians retook what they believed to be theirs).

Stalin, Mao, and Hitler (remember, he was doing "God's work") killed so many because they desired power. Claiming moral highground because of faith is silly, as there is no winning as one party will judge who is "right" by their set of beliefs and the other does the same.

What I do find ridiculous though is that a Thiestic Satanist could come here and put "Thiestic" because they do meet the criteria because of the way the poll is set up. tongue.gif

My issue is with religion, not with God, I pray each night.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 21 2008, 03:20 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 21 2008, 09:56 AM) *
no, we put them in prison if they do that.

I am saying that a true atheist is totally amoral by definition. it is simple logic.


I am not saying you are amoral. You probably just THINK you are an atheist. Really you are not.

But a true atheist is like Stalin. No problem killing 20 million for political gain. That is true atheism.



ultimate justice comes in the fourm of death, when you are in the ground rotting and your mind has quit to register because it is not being fed neutriants. when your brain stops.. your exhistance stops.. I do not believe in a god.. i believe in what we see.. i am an athiest.. my morals go as far as if i kill someone.. the police lock me away for a long time.. if i kill many people.. the police kill me.. earth has all the same judgement systems as a religion does.. which is why i consider the majority of my morals artificial BUT! being a good person because that will make your life more enjoyable may give the illusion of morals but can still allow the person to be an athiest.

Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 03:41 PM

I think that even atheists believe in some sort of higher force.
Coincidence,luck,good karma...you name it.
Perhaps we use different names for it and see things in not the same way. smile.gif

Once more,believing or religion is private thing,totally private.
And I honor every man as long as he's modest,fair,decent,honest etc. smile.gif

Posted by: Tomotoms Mar 21 2008, 03:42 PM

The way I see it: I cannot prove the existance of a God or the non-existance of one. So I'm just going to get on with my life and not worry about it.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 03:49 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 21 2008, 03:41 PM) *
I think that even atheists believe in some sort of higher force.
Coincidence,luck,good karma...you name it.
Perhaps we use different names for it and see things in not the same way. smile.gif

I agree. Most buddhists are atheist, but they do believe in reincarnation and other supernatural stuff.
Me personally i dont believe in anything supernatural, unless of course i see evidence to support it. That goes for everything.

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 21 2008, 03:41 PM) *
Once more,believing or religion is private thing,totally private.
And I honor every man as long as he's modest,fair,decent,honest etc. smile.gif

Definitely. I support everyones right to believe whatever they want smile.gif

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 21 2008, 03:53 PM

One theory of life that I find very interesting is simulated reality.

It's the theory that that reality could be simulated—computer simulated—to a degree indistinguishable from 'true' reality. It could contain conscious minds which may or may not know that they are living inside a simulation.

So basically if we created AI (artificial intelligence) in the future, we could create a world inside of a computer which would be exactly like our own (or completely different). We could watch how it evolves and how it creates a society and environment.

If this theory is correct we could be living in one of many 'simulated realities' and that there is only 1 true world where life started which could be completely different to how we live today. There is over a 95% chance that we are in a simulated reality.

I don't actually believe in this theory I just find it very interesting.

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 21 2008, 03:55 PM

QUOTE (Sam Hook @ Mar 21 2008, 03:53 PM) *
One theory of life that I find very interesting is simulated reality.

It's the theory that that reality could be simulated—computer simulated—to a degree indistinguishable from 'true' reality. It could contain conscious minds which may or may not know that they are living inside a simulation.

So basically if we created AI (artificial intelligence) in the future, we could create a world inside of a computer which would be exactly like our own (or completely different). We could watch how it evolves and how it creates a society and environment.

If this theory is correct we could be living in one of many 'simulated realities' and that there is only 1 true world where life started which could be completely different to how we live today. There is over a 95% chance that we are in a simulated reality.

I don't actually believe in this theory I just find it very interesting.


Evidence anyone?

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 21 2008, 03:55 PM

Atheist. And think that what fkalich just said was like the most unbelievable and offensive thing I've ever read on this forum... I still think I know whats right and whats wrong even when I don't believe in god... it doesn't change humans moraly. dry.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 03:56 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 03:03 PM) *
What you are saying is pretty much ridiculous. I am an atheist. An atheist is one who does not accept the claim that there is a god. How can that make anyone a bad person? What Stalin, Mao etc. did was not because of atheism. Atheism doesnt motivate anyone to do anything like that. The fact that they were atheist is completely irrelevant to what they did. If they were christian, or muslim, or jewish or whatever, they would still have been as big sick assholes as they were.


+1

But there's "use" of religion for own goal,usually hurting many along the.

As I'm muslim,one thing ALWAYS hurts me when I hear it,specially in media,TV etc. unsure.gif

Islamic Terrorism.

Islam (and every other religions) heavily forbidds every type of violence,use of force etc.

Can we use name Christians terrorism for Guantamale prison?
Of course we can't.

But "line" Islamic Terrorism is way to often today,specially in western world.

Those suicide bombers ARE saying that they are doing it for Islam.
And that's veeery stupid thing to say.

But still media uses segments from those statements in news titles.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 03:57 PM

QUOTE (Sam Hook @ Mar 21 2008, 03:53 PM) *
One theory of life that I find very interesting is simulated reality.

It's the theory that that reality could be simulated—computer simulated—to a degree indistinguishable from 'true' reality. It could contain conscious minds which may or may not know that they are living inside a simulation.

So basically if we created AI (artificial intelligence) in the future, we could create a world inside of a computer which would be exactly like our own (or completely different). We could watch how it evolves and how it creates a society and environment.

If this theory is correct we could be living in one of many 'simulated realities' and that there is only 1 true world where life started which could be completely different to how we live today. There is over a 95% chance that we are in a simulated reality.

I don't actually believe in this theory I just find it very interesting.

It might be possible tongue.gif Who knows laugh.gif

And also, this world can also be my imagination. Maybe you guys and everything else here isnt real, maybe im locked in on an insane asylum and imagines all of this laugh.gif Who knows laugh.gif

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 21 2008, 03:59 PM

QUOTE (SinoMan @ Mar 21 2008, 02:55 PM) *
Evidence anyone?


Of course, it's just a theory and has not be proven so it has very little evidence.

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 02:57 PM) *
It might be possible tongue.gif Who knows laugh.gif

And also, this world can also be my imagination. Maybe you guys and everything else here isnt real, maybe im locked in on an insane asylum and imagines all of this laugh.gif Who knows laugh.gif


tongue.gif Haha, I often think stuff like that all the time.

Posted by: jeff Mar 21 2008, 04:00 PM

God definitely exisits! How do I know?

Because I'm a dork and I have a smokin' hot wife! Who else would give that to me? biggrin.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 04:01 PM

QUOTE (Tuubsu @ Mar 21 2008, 03:55 PM) *
Atheist. And think that what fkalich just said was like the most unbelievable and offensive thing I've ever read on this forum... I still think I know whats right and whats wrong even when I don't believe in god... it doesn't change humans moraly. dry.gif


Don't take that too hard,
Fkalich and I had misunderstandings even in "in style of lesson" topic,
no worries. smile.gif

From my point of view,acts are saying a lot more about men.
You don't have to tell me your name,religion,are you atheist or not.
Just be a man,good one.

Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 04:01 PM

QUOTE (jeff @ Mar 21 2008, 04:00 PM) *
God definitely exisits! How do I know?

Because I'm a dork and I have a smokin' hot wife! Who else would give that to me? biggrin.gif


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Nick Kellie Mar 21 2008, 04:05 PM

undecided - mostly theist but sometimes not .... I have doubts but then sometimes things happen and it really shows me there is another level... a spiritual level, but not sure if that is God or not...


Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 21 2008, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 21 2008, 05:01 PM) *
Don't take that too hard,
Fkalich and I had misunderstandings even in "in style of lesson" topic,
no worries. smile.gif

From my point of view,acts are saying a lot more about men.
You don't have to tell me your name,religion,are you atheist or not.
Just be a man,good one.


Yeah I'm not taking it too personally wink.gif

Exactly its acts that say what kinda man someone is.

Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 04:08 PM

QUOTE (Tuubsu @ Mar 21 2008, 04:06 PM) *
Exactly its acts that say what kinda man someone is.


Noo,that's just Fkalich,old one. wink.gif

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 21 2008, 04:09 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 21 2008, 05:08 PM) *
Noo,that's just Fkalich,old one. wink.gif


What!?! now I'm confused! huh.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 04:12 PM

QUOTE (Tuubsu @ Mar 21 2008, 04:09 PM) *
What!?! now I'm confused! huh.gif


Old Fkalich acts the way he acted above.
But there's another side of his personality,newer one,more kindly. biggrin.gif

Sadly,you ran into old one. laugh.gif

Posted by: Goliath Mar 21 2008, 05:48 PM

Tangent @ Muris:
You can't call the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay terrorism because by the very definition of terrorism it does not apply. Terrorism is using an act of terror to deliver a desired reaction from a general population to enact a desired policy change out of fear. The detainees in Guantanamo are prisoners of "war" and regardless of how cruel they may be treated, it does not affect mood of the general population. It would be another matter entirely if the US was picking up people at random and subjecting them to that type of treatment, but so far as I know that is not the case. Meanwhile, self detonating in a public market place could most certainly be construed as an act of terror. I'm not saying what takes place there is necessarily a lesser evil than acts of terrorism, but they are certainly different forms, as one act victimizes innocent randoms and the other victimizes someone who is captured on the "battlefield".


Of course I'm sure there is a disconnect as I am an aforementioned westerner and certainly my perspective is not as accurate as your own.

Either way, I know and work with many Muslims that are of your mindset Muris, and that's great because there's plenty of space in this sandbox we call Earth for everybody tongue.gif

Posted by: audiopaal Mar 21 2008, 05:56 PM

I'm an atheist.
I will not begin to discuss religion here, because nothing good will come out of it.
Just look at some of the things that have been said already...

I respect everyones belief, as long as they respect mine.
Religion does not make a person good or bad, his way of life and his intentions do.
I know just as many religious people that deserve punishment as I do non-religious!

and I agree with Muris on this: "And I honor every man as long as he's modest,fair,decent,honest etc. smile.gif "

Posted by: SLASH91 Mar 21 2008, 06:19 PM

QUOTE (Sam Hook @ Mar 21 2008, 09:59 AM) *
tongue.gif Haha, I often think stuff like that all the time.


And I thought I was the only one tongue.gif

As far as my beliefs go, I am really undecided as to whether or not there is a god or if we just ended up here by chance somehow. I mean one creator over everything just seems like a story that you'd here in a fairytale book, but on the other hand, I believe that evolution is a load of crap (don't want to start an argument over that, only certain points in evolution are true). I actually live in a religious home right now, but it's never really clicked with me; and I'm begining to REALLY dislike it.

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 21 2008, 06:22 PM

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Mar 21 2008, 05:56 PM) *
I'm an atheist.
I will not begin to discuss religion here, because nothing good will come out of it.
Just look at some of the things that have been said already...

I respect everyones belief, as long as they respect mine.
Religion does not make a person good or bad, his way of life and his intentions do.
I know just as many religious people that deserve punishment as I do non-religious!

and I agree with Muris on this: "And I honor every man as long as he's modest,fair,decent,honest etc. smile.gif "


Thats basically what i had in plan to say smile.gif

People, please be careful.. i've never seen a thread about politics or religion that havent resulted in fights.

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 21 2008, 06:49 PM

I'm agnostic.

I was born and brought up Catholic from an early age but became an atheist in my teens. As I've grown older I've moved more to a position between the two - and not through growing older or wiser as I'm only older but certainly not wiser. In growing older for me I've perhaps accepted a more open field - for me - and now am happy to both wait and hope to be amazed. (I HOPE to be amazed so maybe I'm moving more towards theism...)

Within the scope of moral judgment (which to me is defined by human society, as opposed to ethical - which is given by a divine) - I don't think I'm capable of judging. I certainly can't judge ethics or ethically - that is for a Divine to do (assuming that there is one). I'm flawed in many ways but I do my best - human, all too human - and the best I can offer is to do my best.

What we believe and adjudge sacred or profane though is very personal to us all. And I don't think anyone is having a dig at anyone else so far but as Trond suggests let's keep it that way. Respect each other's beliefs smile.gif

Cheers,
Tony


Posted by: Muris Mar 21 2008, 07:06 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 05:48 PM) *
Tangent @ Muris:
You can't call the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay terrorism because by the very definition of terrorism it does not apply. Terrorism is using an act of terror to deliver a desired reaction from a general population to enact a desired policy change out of fear. The detainees in Guantanamo are prisoners of "war" and regardless of how cruel they may be treated, it does not affect mood of the general population. It would be another matter entirely if the US was picking up people at random and subjecting them to that type of treatment, but so far as I know that is not the case. Meanwhile, self detonating in a public market place could most certainly be construed as an act of terror. I'm not saying what takes place there is necessarily a lesser evil than acts of terrorism, but they are certainly different forms, as one act victimizes innocent randoms and the other victimizes someone who is captured on the "battlefield".


Of course I'm sure there is a disconnect as I am an aforementioned westerner and certainly my perspective is not as accurate as your own.

Either way, I know and work with many Muslims that are of your mindset Muris, and that's great because there's plenty of space in this sandbox we call Earth for everybody tongue.gif


Of course,there are some ugly things at Guantanamo but I could have chosen a way better example.
Invasion on Irak maybe,IRA.... unsure.gif
Anyhow,I'm glad we understand each other. smile.gif

Posted by: Xranthoius Mar 21 2008, 07:13 PM

I'm Athesist, I believe in natural creation of everything. If you look at everything scientifically, it began with the Big Bang, then hydrogen fuses together to make oxygen, and all the other elements. From the big bang, it was so hot that that was possible. Over millions of years stars and plants formed, then became galexies. Life began to come into play and everything evolved from small bacteria deep in our oceans, then millions of years later creatures evolved to be able to walk upon land. Evolution took on from there and made every species we have today. smile.gif

Posted by: Wallimann Mar 21 2008, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (Maximus @ Mar 21 2008, 10:05 AM) *
I am a member of this fairly new denomination. Check it out:

http://churchofspongebob.tripod.com/home.html



Hahaha!

Posted by: Wallimann Mar 21 2008, 07:17 PM

QUOTE (Xranthoius @ Mar 21 2008, 02:13 PM) *
I'm Athesist, I believe in natural creation of everything. If you look at everything scientifically, it began with the Big Bang, then hydrogen fuses together to make oxygen, and all the other elements. From the big bang, it was so hot that that was possible. Over millions of years stars and plants formed, then became galexies. Life began to come into play and everything evolved from small bacteria deep in our oceans, then millions of years later creatures evolved to be able to walk upon land. Evolution took on from there and made every species we have today. smile.gif



What is the Big Bang?

Posted by: mattacuk Mar 21 2008, 07:19 PM

Me, Well I dont know what to belive either way smile.gif When I was younger and more troubled, I explored religion/s to comfort myself but it opened more questions than it answered. I could read as many books as I wanted, ask as many questions but it didnt do me any good. As soon as I started relying on myself as an individual, and understood that I was the one that I could rely on my life got pretty good smile.gif

I do however totally respect any belifes anyone might have, "atheiest", or a "thiest", thats cool by me wink.gif

Posted by: Xranthoius Mar 21 2008, 07:21 PM

QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 21 2008, 01:17 PM) *
What is the Big Bang?


Billions of years ago, before the universe was even here, there was a small ball of matter floating, eventually it exploded expanding trillions of trillions of light years across creating everything, which is still expanding today. I'm not sure exactly of the theory behind it, here is a link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

Posted by: JVM Mar 21 2008, 07:39 PM

In practice I am mostly atheist. Really though, I'm agnostic. I know there are things that go on around us all the time that we just can't comprehend - a lot of that is scientific, that our eyes cant see the entire spectrum of light for example. I also think a lot of "supernatural" events are easily explainable in natural terms. If there is a higher power, I believe it and science can coexist. And while science can explain the obvious, the things that ARE, or the things that COULD be or WERE, for example, it can never explain why. It can tell you that your energy is equal to half your mass times your velocity squared, but it can't explain why that is... just that it is.

So what I'm trying to get at is, we can understand everything but there has to be something behind it, some reason. Have you ever tried to imagine nothingness? It's impossible... not even blackness, not even an absence of sound, just nothing... it can't be.

Posted by: kevin-riff-after-riff Mar 21 2008, 08:04 PM

i belive in the gods of rock smile.gif

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (SLASH91 @ Mar 21 2008, 06:19 PM) *
I believe that evolution is a load of crap (don't want to start an argument over that, only certain points in evolution are true).

May i ask why you think its a load of crap? www.talkorigins.org has lots of information on evolution. Its a proven scientific fact.

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 21 2008, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 07:15 PM) *
May i ask why you think its a load of crap? www.talkorigins.org has lots of information on evolution. Its a proven scientific fact.


I 100% agree with you and also believe in evolution but I don't think that it has actually proven to be fact yet.

Even though there is a large amount of evidence supporting it, it is still just a theory.

If it was proved it would go against creationism and the Genesis story.

Well, that's what I read somewhere, I may be wrong.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (Sam Hook @ Mar 21 2008, 08:25 PM) *
I 100% agree with you and also believe in evolution but I don't think that it has actually proven to be fact yet.

Even though there is a large amount of evidence supporting it, it is still just a theory.

If it was proved it would go against creationism and the Genesis story.

Its not "just a theory" tongue.gif


Taken from talkorigins.org

"Q: I thought evolution was just a theory. Why do you call it a fact?

A: Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution -- genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact. The theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that cause evolution. So evolution is both a fact and a theory
"
Tons more of info on the website.

Posted by: dusty Mar 21 2008, 08:26 PM

oh i do love a good theological debate, although usually after a few drinks. there have been some good points made on either side although if you thought the dog throwing thread was starting to get a bit hot then this one has the potential to go supernova. my turn to add some fuel to the fire.

personally i do not subscribe to the notion of an ultimate intellginece or supreme creator as i am happy with the fact that as a species we do not nor will ever know all the answers to the questions that surround our existence, for me the notion that it is " gods will" or that it is all part of gods grand plan is just the easy way out. religion and belief in god to me is just a way shielding one self from the fear of the unknown.
that is not to say that core the teachings of todays religons are in error they teach some very good things but they are afterall things that have been around in society since we first stepped out of the trees, (i appreciate that the creationists will not agree with that so dont bother quoting and slating me).
i think it is great that we all beleive different things otherwise life would get very boring and stale, it is just another sad fact of life that certain individuals will twist and destort the beliefs of thier fellow followers for thier own personal gain, so for some one to say that an athiest has no morals or that another who believes in a different deity not only wrong but the enemy is typical of the blinkered view of religon/s.

lets face the facts; we are all alive, we are all here on this ball of dirt and water that is hurtling through space at thousands of miles an hour. lets just appreciate that fact and enjoy it while it lasts. tongue.gif


Posted by: SLASH91 Mar 21 2008, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 02:15 PM) *
May i ask why you think its a load of crap? www.talkorigins.org has lots of information on evolution. Its a proven scientific fact.


There's actually two sections of evolution- Macro evolution and microevolution. Micro evolution is the true one (this is all my oppinion, I'm not saying that your wrong!). It's the theory that over time, nature makes small changes to adapt to its environment. Macro evolution says that a fish could evolve into a bird for example. I've got to go right now, but I'll come back later and actually give some reasons as to why I believe this wink.gif

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (dusty @ Mar 21 2008, 08:26 PM) *
if you thought the dog throwing thread was starting to get a bit hot then this one has the potential to go supernova.

I hope not!! biggrin.gif I like this subject. So far it has been a nice discussion biggrin.gif

Posted by: SLASH91 Mar 21 2008, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 02:15 PM) *
May i ask why you think its a load of crap? www.talkorigins.org has lots of information on evolution. Its a proven scientific fact.


There's actually two sections of evolution- Macro evolution and microevolution. Micro evolution is the true one (this is all my oppinion, I'm not saying that your wrong!). It's the theory that over time, nature makes small changes to adapt to its environment. Macro evolution says that a fish could evolve into a bird for example. I've got to go right now, but I'll come back later and actually give some reasons as to why I believe this wink.gif

Posted by: The Uncreator Mar 21 2008, 08:34 PM

QUOTE (kevin-riff-after-riff @ Mar 21 2008, 11:04 AM) *
i belive in the gods of rock smile.gif

+1

And I The Gods Of Metal smile.gif

Posted by: Pablo Vazquez Mar 21 2008, 08:43 PM

I really don´t matter religion or if any person believe or not in God, Gods or another kind of things... But, check out this video!! I hope you find it funny as I smile.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Posted by: fkalich Mar 21 2008, 08:51 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 09:19 AM) *
More people have died in the name of religion than probably anything else in history. Salem Witch trials, the Inquisition, Crusades (both sides there, not faulting Christianity or Muslims entirely, Muslims attacked what they believed to be theirs, Christians retook what they believed to be theirs).

Stalin, Mao, and Hitler (remember, he was doing "God's work") killed so many because they desired power. Claiming moral highground because of faith is silly, as there is no winning as one party will judge who is "right" by their set of beliefs and the other does the same.

What I do find ridiculous though is that a Thiestic Satanist could come here and put "Thiestic" because they do meet the criteria because of the way the poll is set up. tongue.gif

My issue is with religion, not with God, I pray each night.


Don't be too hard on the medieval Christians. You really have to do some serious study to understand those times. There were some really good point about the Church in the early days.

Take for example, you mention Inquisition. I blame Edgar Allen Poe for that (I have seen his grave btw, in Baltimore).
In fact, the conception most have of the inquisition stems from English propaganda leveled against the Spanish at the time.

If you were to be tried by a court in Europe at those times, you sure hoped it would be the religious court and not the civil courts. In the religious courts you had a chance at least. The civil courts were the true Kangaroo courts in those times.

Take Witch Burning. Not one witch was ever burned by the Spanish Inquisition. And estimated 100,000 were put to death by the civil european courts.

Read about the early church, not perfect by any means, you will have more respect for the good things that were there, if you study it seriously (I mean by reading scholarly books, written by professors at universities). It had its flaws at times, sometimes serious ones. Part was circumstantial. For 150 years or so the entire continent was a mess due to Viking invasions, things were really disrupted. And it was political of course. But for example, the Crusaders were under orders by the Pope on Crusades to not commit atrocities that they committed (such as at Constantinople). I am just saying, they had good things, not all bad.

Posted by: shellshock1911 Mar 21 2008, 08:54 PM

I am secretley Buddhist, I don't believe in any type of god, but the philosphies of Buddhism are really great in my mind and have helped me get over so much stuff and basically turned my life from what I thought was crap to my thinking I have the best life in the world. All of my family is hardcore Christian and they still think I am...sigh. My family is probably one of the most ignorant groups of people ever, which is why I don't want to even come close to following in their footsteps.

For example, to them, Buddhism is all about "worshipping a fat guy." Islam = terrorism and extremeism in their minds. My mom says she doesn't want to have a religion that promotes violence and killings, and in her mind that is Islam lol. They do this for all religions in my family. However if I bring up how CHRISTIANS burned people alive and executed tons of people for being "heretics" or bring up any other atrocities committed by Christians, they will have none of it.

And they try to do the same thing with evolution. Evolution = Monkey to man in their mind, what is it that they don't understand about the fact that evolution is CHANGE OVER TIME, simple as that CHANGE OVER TIME, influenced by many factors such as natural selection. And evolution has been PROVEN, in bacteria. For example, why do you think bacteria become immune to medicines? Evolution. In bacteria it can occur in a matter of weeks.

And Christianity is a pick and choose religion created by man. Humankind picked what they wanted and said it is the "doctrine. I believe that there are quotes in the Bible that say it is OK to sell daughters into slavery, he who speaks against his or her father should be put to death, and anyone with long hair, shame on them. LOL isn't Jesus portrayed with long hair?


Ahh I could go on and on...

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (SLASH91 @ Mar 21 2008, 08:32 PM) *
There's actually two sections of evolution- Macro evolution and microevolution. Micro evolution is the true one (this is all my oppinion, I'm not saying that your wrong!). It's the theory that over time, nature makes small changes to adapt to its environment. Macro evolution says that a fish could evolve into a bird for example. I've got to go right now, but I'll come back later and actually give some reasons as to why I believe this wink.gif

Ok cool.

Btw, macroevolution certainly doesnt mean that a fish directly evolved into a bird tongue.gif Not saying that you think it does ofc, but some people actually do tongue.gif

I've even heard "evolution basically means that a dog gave birth to a cat" laugh.gif

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 21 2008, 09:05 PM

QUOTE (Xranthoius @ Mar 21 2008, 02:13 PM) *
I'm Athesist, I believe in natural creation of everything. If you look at everything scientifically, it began with the Big Bang, then hydrogen fuses together to make oxygen, and all the other elements. From the big bang, it was so hot that that was possible. Over millions of years stars and plants formed, then became galexies. Life began to come into play and everything evolved from small bacteria deep in our oceans, then millions of years later creatures evolved to be able to walk upon land. Evolution took on from there and made every species we have today. smile.gif



BUUUTTT the theory of the big bang has a flaw.. BECAUSE it says that all matter would have expanded from a single very very dense particle.. this.. means there was 1 particle before creation.. therefore.. where did this particle come from?

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 21 2008, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Smikey2006 @ Mar 21 2008, 08:05 PM) *
BUUUTTT the theory of the big bang has a flaw.. BECAUSE it says that all matter would have expanded from a single very very dense particle.. this.. means there was 1 particle before creation.. therefore.. where did this particle come from?


You could also say the exact same thing about any other religion though, where did God come from?

Posted by: Zephyr Mar 21 2008, 09:10 PM

I'm definitely a religious guy. I'm a Christian, but I believe there is some truth to almost all religions in the world. I really don't feel like getting into any religious debates, but I just thought I'd state my beliefs.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 21 2008, 09:14 PM

QUOTE (Sam Hook @ Mar 21 2008, 04:09 PM) *
You could also say the exact same thing about any other religion though, where did God come from?



i know.. and that is a thought that is much too complex.. that is why i chose not to care smile.gif but one religion (buddhism) at least tells us that the essance of the universe is too much for the human mind to grasp smile.gif

Posted by: Goliath Mar 21 2008, 09:24 PM

Religion in it's entirety is a way for man to come up with a back story for things he cannot readily explain. Could it be rooted in truth? Absolutely.

Evolution is not a "fact" it is an "accepted theory", there are COLOSSAL gaps in the fossil record that just cannot be explained. The evolution we know to be true would require DOZENS of intermediate steps between human and ape and magically not a single one we've been able to find and verify as authentic. In fact the only real argument for Evolution is "there's no proof for creation" which is a circular argument. Evolution can be looked at as likely, but is a far cry from definite. Creation could still be a definite, so it falls into a likely category as well.

I could just as easily say we were put on the planet by aliens and we wouldn't have proof either way.




Posted by: fkalich Mar 21 2008, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (Sam Hook @ Mar 21 2008, 03:09 PM) *
You could also say the exact same thing about any other religion though, where did God come from?


well the cosmological theory de jour is that our universe was created due to the collision of two parallel universes (both probably being destroyed in the process). That was the big bang.

physics gets weird belief, and it makes God seem a lot more reasonable as you get into it. Belief in God is much more "down to earth" than modern cosmological physics.

I go back to my first post, it is better for a person to believe in a divine entity that is goodness, that watches you, and to who you are answerable for your actions. Societies with such religions may so some bad things. But societies that really go atheist, it is frightening to think what they are capable of.

Posted by: fkalich Mar 21 2008, 09:28 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 03:24 PM) *
I could just as easily say we were put on the planet by aliens and we wouldn't have proof either way.


We would have to ask them why they modeled our genetic proteins so similar to those of apes. Maybe they put the apes here to I guess.

Evolution explains things well. That is all you ask of a theory. A theory is an abstraction. It is not reality. Just a model that you use to go from here to there, and if you don't fall of a cliff in the process, it is a good theory. But a theory is not reality. Reality is what you witness. It has no attributes, it is just what is there.

edit: i think that when they called God "he who has no name", this was part of what they are getting at. Atheists tend to think theory is reality. It is not. It only models reality. Reality is what is. It has no real attributes, only the models of reality have attributes.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 09:31 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 09:24 PM) *
In fact the only real argument for Evolution is "there's no proof for creation" which is a circular argument.

Not really. Its actually the opposite laugh.gif

The theory of evolution got tons of other scientific evidence, not only fossils.

www.talkorigins.org

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 21 2008, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (Smikey2006 @ Mar 21 2008, 08:14 PM) *
i know.. and that is a thought that is much too complex.. that is why i chose not to care smile.gif but one religion (buddhism) at least tells us that the essance of the universe is too much for the human mind to grasp smile.gif


Indeed, although I'm athiest I think that the Budhist religion is great and has some very interesting ideas and teachings on how to live life. Karma, for example.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 09:37 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Mar 21 2008, 09:24 PM) *
I go back to my first post, it is better for a person to believe in a divine entity that is goodness, that watches you, and to who you are answerable for your actions. Societies with such religions may so some bad things. But societies that really go atheist, it is frightening to think what they are capable of.

That might be a good thing, but belief in god is not the only reason to be moral. Humans are a social species, we have to live together. To make life best for everyone we dont do bad things to others. We feel empathy.

Posted by: fkalich Mar 21 2008, 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Mar 21 2008, 03:31 PM) *
Not really. Its actually the opposite laugh.gif

The theory of evolution got tons of other scientific evidence, not only fossils.

www.talkorigins.org


Catholics (at least in the US) have accepted Evolution for about 50 years. Largely I think due to the abundance of high quality Catholic Universities. Not really a bearing on the reality of God. Perhaps a bearing on the level of respect that is or is not given to those not of our species. If you go back to the early church, you will see that creatures were given respect. It is no accident the blood sacrifice of animals ended with the early church.

Of course evolution explains things, one of the most solid theories out there, not quite up there with Relativity or Quantum Mechanics, but in the general direction.

Posted by: Goliath Mar 21 2008, 09:43 PM

Robin you don't look at the evidence against it either. Do you think it would still be a theory and not a widely accepted truth if it were infallable as something like gravity? You throw it around like it is absolute truth.

Posted by: Robin Mar 21 2008, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 09:43 PM) *
Robin you don't look at the evidence against it either. Do you think it would still be a theory and not a widely accepted truth if it were infallable as something like gravity? You throw it around like it is absolute truth.

Please show me evidence against it.

It most certainly isnt absolute truth, but it is alot more than "just a theory".

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 21 2008, 09:48 PM

Is evolution merely a "theory"?

No. The theory of evolution is much more than "just a theory" in the common use of the term.

The word "theory" in normal usage means a guess or a hunch. But in science, a "theory" is a belief that has been generally accepted by scientists as a result of actual experimentation and/or observation.

Most biologists believe that evolution is more than a theory; it is an established fact. The earth's life forms have evolved over billions of years. Species of animals have been recently observed as continuing to evolve, both in the lab and field.

There remains debate about some details of past evolution. For example, there is a consensus that dinosaurs evolved and that birds evolved; there is some debate as to whether dinosaurs were the distant ancestors of birds.


From http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_stat.htm

Posted by: Mrblomme Mar 21 2008, 09:50 PM

I only believe in all the gods from the Manowar albums. ^^

Posted by: SLASH91 Mar 21 2008, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 03:24 PM) *
Religion in it's entirety is a way for man to come up with a back story for things he cannot readily explain. Could it be rooted in truth? Absolutely.

Evolution is not a "fact" it is an "accepted theory", there are COLOSSAL gaps in the fossil record that just cannot be explained. The evolution we know to be true would require DOZENS of intermediate steps between human and ape and magically not a single one we've been able to find and verify as authentic. In fact the only real argument for Evolution is "there's no proof for creation" which is a circular argument. Evolution can be looked at as likely, but is a far cry from definite. Creation could still be a definite, so it falls into a likely category as well.

I could just as easily say we were put on the planet by aliens and we wouldn't have proof either way.


Yep, agree %100.

Listen, Robin, I'm trying to side with Christianity in any way. I really can't stand having it forced down my throat all of the time. But still, any evidence that evolution ever occured is always being touted by scientists and every one else, while none of the evidence against it is EVER spoken about except in a Christian context. What we need is some kind of scientist who would be totally impartial, neither looking at the matter from a christian standpoint or an anti-christian standpoint. In that way we could really get a true answer, as to which is more likely.


Posted by: The Spartan Mar 21 2008, 10:13 PM

Well,I'm Muslim so I'm a monothiest,I believe in one God. smile.gif

Posted by: fkalich Mar 21 2008, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 03:24 PM) *

"Evolution is not a "fact" it is an "accepted theory", there are COLOSSAL gaps in the fossil record that just cannot be explained. The evolution we know to be true would require DOZENS of intermediate steps between human and ape and "

endquote


NAME ONE! There are not colossal gaps. It is very solid, only minor questions left.

I am a believer myself, but you just have to accept evolution and meld that into your beliefs. Seriously. Any of these guys trying to shoot it down are just bogus. One of those things you maybe just say, but then, if people are going to be stubborn about it, you give up. Like they are saying the sun really rises in the west, or pigs can fly. You just give up.


edit: also, there are no intermediate steps between us and apes, in fact, no steps at all. we have a common ancestor, but we are not descended from apes.

Posted by: Goliath Mar 21 2008, 10:29 PM

google works both ways friend.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bowdenmalcolm/evol.htm

http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml


in fact your whole website you keep pointing back to is quite clearly a website with an agenda, about half of the stuff I've read on it that "disproves" counterpoints is some fellow at his computer sitting down and really hashing out the semantics of the phrasing then proving the way it was phrased is somehow inaccurate, rarely does it address the actual issue with the argument.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

Seriously, this guy won't back up any of his claims but falls back on a lot of the "this argument shows a lack of understanding about x." or "if you rephrase this argument this way, then it's true". That's not proving anything. And his argument against the 2nd law is lacking. He pigeon holes the argument as saying "people are thinking this way but they are forgetting about the sun, duh" which doesn't even begin to address it and is pseudointellectualism at its best. Not one of those questions does he answer directly, he creates a frame for the question, shifts it then attempts to "disprove" it. Read his answer to each of those questions in the FAQ. Could I take that FAQ to task point by point like he does? Certainly, but it would require loads of research I'm not willing to do (nor have time) and lots of squabbling over semantics just like he does. I'm coping out of that one just like they cop out about REALLy addressing the fossil record. What cracks me up is he establishes this vague definition of evolution then faults the rest of the arguments "for not understanding evolution". His definition verbatim is : "Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time" Bravo sir, if your goal is to prove that evolution DOES occur, then that's a fairly easy one and I don't think anyone is arguing that point. Pesticide and antibiotics losing effectiveness plainly prove that, but he skirts away from the argument of "Evolution is the explanation for how humans came to be".

His argument about transitional fossils is absurd and doesn't even begin to confront the issue and is really just approaching it as in "There are these fossils we have found with very slight differences, so there ARE transitional fossils", but what he fails to mention is the lack of any SIGNIFICANT transitional fossils, clear benchmarks along the way form one lineage to the next.

If you dig deeper and look in the "talkorigin.org" archive it pretty much admits that while they have found SOME fossils that show somewhat of a transition, then this supposes that there are LOTS of transitional fossils, they have just not been discovered yet, because it is "excruciatingly boring, soul destroying work".

Basically I submit to you cannot know evolution to be true based on the body of evidence currently available. When you boil it down you have used science to justify a secular belief that you desire to be true yet still lack the proper body of evidence for it to be accepted as truth, which shows an act of "faith" on your behalf that somehow the rest of the information that's missing will fill itself in to support your claim.

EDIT: and now you prove my point with your edit. There is a "missing link" and given the extremely patient nature of the rest of the fossils to suppose that "well maybe it was only around for one generation and no fossils were preserved" is to defeat the entire chain of logic used to develop the argument. I'm not disagreeing that evolution did not/does not happen, but merely acceptance this theory as absolute truth is closing your mind to additional information that may surface, which is not a very scholarly attitude to keep about it. You must always accept the possibility that you may be wrong until all doubt is removed, is basically what I am advocating.

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 21 2008, 10:40 PM



[/quote]

NAME ONE! There are not colossal gaps. It is very solid, only minor questions left.

I am a believer myself, but you just have to accept evolution and meld that into your beliefs. Seriously. Any of these guys trying to shoot it down are just bogus. One of those things you maybe just say, but then, if people are going to be stubborn about it, you give up. Like they are saying the sun really rises in the west, or pigs can fly. You just give up.


edit: also, there are no intermediate steps between us and apes, in fact, no steps at all. we have a common ancestor, but we are not descended from apes.
[/quote]

I agree.. evolution as a theory is sort of like gravity.. gravity is also a theory.. but.. when you jump.. you come down.. its the same situation..

Posted by: shellshock1911 Mar 21 2008, 10:46 PM

To put and end to the arguement that it is either a theory or fact...A theory is the highest level of scientific truth, which says a lot. It is out to prove anything, just there to offer a possible explanation based on studies.

Posted by: Siggum Mar 21 2008, 10:48 PM

Personally i am a non beliver, i respect all religions and that people chooses to belive is their own personal cause. I like to say that i dont belive in anything that i cant see or havent experienced.

Posted by: ActiveX Mar 21 2008, 11:23 PM

I was raised in a very strict Christian home, and I attended a private Christian school
for many years. I wasn't allowed to do anything...listening to rock music was a sin, dancing was a sin,
movies and tv were tools of the devil, etc, etc. All of this really turned me off of religion, and when I was about 16 I
stopped going to church, and kind of went down a different path. As I got older I realized that it wasn't God that I had lost
faith in, but in the people who claimed to be speaking for Him. This is why I hate the term "religion". "Religion" as I
see it is just a bunch of rules made up by MEN; not by God. I still believe in God, and I still hold on to many of the core
Christian values that I was taught: being honest, being compassionate, and treating others the way that I would like to be treated.

Posted by: kivler Mar 21 2008, 11:35 PM

biggrin.gif believer biggrin.gif

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 22 2008, 02:15 AM

QUOTE (ActiveX @ Mar 21 2008, 06:23 PM) *
I was raised in a very strict Christian home, and I attended a private Christian school
for many years. I wasn't allowed to do anything...listening to rock music was a sin, dancing was a sin,
movies and tv were tools of the devil, etc, etc. All of this really turned me off of religion, and when I was about 16 I
stopped going to church, and kind of went down a different path. As I got older I realized that it wasn't God that I had lost
faith in, but in the people who claimed to be speaking for Him. This is why I hate the term "religion". "Religion" as I
see it is just a bunch of rules made up by MEN; not by God. I still believe in God, and I still hold on to many of the core
Christian values that I was taught: being honest, being compassionate, and treating others the way that I would like to be treated.



this statement gets 5 smilies outta 5

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 22 2008, 02:50 AM

Here's how I see things,could be a bit odd tho.
Holy Books are saying about creation by Him,
in school they teach us about Evolution,even Big Bang etc.

I support all of this,creation,evolution,Big Bang... smile.gif

There are no videos of creation,no videos of evolution(long therm process),no snapshots of Big Bang. wink.gif

But I do know few things.
I cannot create life on my own,I cannot start or irritate evolution and I would need tons of C4 to have a Small Bang. laugh.gif

So it tells me something about force around us,it doesn't mater how we call it. smile.gif

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 22 2008, 06:39 AM

QUOTE (ActiveX @ Mar 22 2008, 12:23 AM) *
I was raised in a very strict Christian home, and I attended a private Christian school
for many years. I wasn't allowed to do anything...listening to rock music was a sin, dancing was a sin,
movies and tv were tools of the devil, etc, etc. All of this really turned me off of religion, and when I was about 16 I
stopped going to church, and kind of went down a different path. As I got older I realized that it wasn't God that I had lost
faith in, but in the people who claimed to be speaking for Him. This is why I hate the term "religion". "Religion" as I
see it is just a bunch of rules made up by MEN; not by God. I still believe in God, and I still hold on to many of the core
Christian values that I was taught: being honest, being compassionate, and treating others the way that I would like to be treated.


Once again I'm an atheist, but thats one good thing I like about religions, they teach good values, all of them, heck even Satanism.

But still to fkalich: You do realize that if people are capable of killing others and not feel bad about it.... my guess would go their mentally ill, not atheists.

Posted by: leedbreak Mar 22 2008, 07:32 AM

Yes, I Praise Him as well.

Its like having Flowers at your door...
Could be luck or maybe chance even a wrong address, but we all rather think some body loves us. A perfect sunset, shooting star, babbling brook, laugh of our child, yeah, If you don't mind me saying, I think somebody loves us.

I have more to say.

I love to look at everything from just what if....

Take humans for instance. We went from riding horses to the space shuttle in less than 100 years. From the printing press to the internet in about the same time.

So lets say you take human advancement up say 100,000 or shoot lets just go for 50M years. I feel it is very possible that we will be able to create new life, add a balance to an other wise, void planet. And so on. Even rebuild the body to give ever lasting life.

Thinking this way just means that it is very possible for there to be something that could have created us and this planet maybe even the whole universe.

I love how science and the bible both start at Nothing then something. BANG, here we are? Gee now what?

So yes, I believe in God, since it is very possible.

More from IMHO


I feel that He wants all of us to go to heaven but yet he does not come back yet, for his own fear of who will reject Him. Just like choosing which kid you will save and which one you will not. The one that ran to you for love, advise and mostly listened to the advise, will be the one you bring up with both hands. But it will still tear your heart apart. When the end is here, God maybe crying since some may not want his love.
A Testimony:

One day about 3 years ago I was out in my boat fishing, go figure. There is a nice sized mountain next to the lake. The bible says God will move that mountain, not because we ask Him to but because we believe He will, after we ask. It is not how you ask but how you believe.

On that day I looked up at the mountain and Told God to move that mountain just to prove to me that He was there. I was over run with emotion and really believed he would move it. But it did not move. The very next day I as looked at the mountain and saw a clearing in the tress that was not there the day before. Since then they have continued clearing trees bulldozing and building subdivisions. Every time I look at that mountain I feel His presence run all over me and he says, Look here you believed I would move it, so I am. Every Single time I see that mountain there is a noticeable a change.


Most of what we ask/pray for is already done, it is just not reveled to us and until it is, it is not there.

Posted by: swingline Mar 22 2008, 08:15 AM

I'm a believer, a Roman Catholic. I don't have a beef with people of other or no religion, I firmly believe its their choice and that it should stay that way.
P.S. Last day of Lent now I can have meat on Fridays, Yay!!

Posted by: swingline Mar 22 2008, 08:18 AM

QUOTE (Tuubsu @ Mar 21 2008, 10:39 PM) *
Once again I'm an atheist, but thats one good thing I like about religions, they teach good values, all of them, heck even Satanism.


The US government is based heavily on the Chritian faith.

Posted by: Tuubsu Mar 22 2008, 08:24 AM

QUOTE (swingline @ Mar 22 2008, 09:18 AM) *
The US government is based heavily on the Chritian faith.


hmmmm.... Your point being...?

Posted by: Robin Mar 22 2008, 12:29 PM

QUOTE (Goliath @ Mar 21 2008, 10:29 PM) *
but merely acceptance this theory as absolute truth is closing your mind to additional information that may surface, which is not a very scholarly attitude to keep about it. You must always accept the possibility that you may be wrong until all doubt is removed, is basically what I am advocating.

I agree a 100%. As i said earlier, of course i dont accept it as absolute truth. But i still believe that we know it to a high degree of certainty that evolution is the explanation for the complexity and diversity of life. But i will not try to continute this discussion because you obviously know alot more than me about this. I should thank you, because you encouraged me to start reading more, from both sides.

Posted by: The Uncreator Mar 22 2008, 02:17 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 21 2008, 05:50 PM) *
But I do know few things.
I cannot create life on my own,I cannot start or irritate evolution and I would need tons of C4 to have a Small Bang. laugh.gif


laugh.gif

Hahaha, thats the best post so far

Posted by: at lights end Mar 22 2008, 09:18 PM

i was brought up into the church of england. but as i've grown older and more intelligent i've started to question christianity. big questions like "where did god come from?" and there are also aspects that i disagree with. i ticked theist, as i believe in a god or some sort of spiritual thing, but not so much the religion to which i am part of. im not really sure of my beliefs at the moment.

Posted by: Wallimann Mar 22 2008, 11:03 PM

It's always a little delicate to share your beliefs with others.
I think mostly because when you have strong beliefs about something, which are certitudes for you, you sound intolerant with others...

But I guess since the topic is clear, it's appropriate to tell what your beliefs are here and I would feel wrong not sharing with you. I don't want to sound like I know it all, because I don't. I also don't want to sound like I am better than anyone else. I think quite the opposite.

I'm a Christian. I think there are a lot of misunderstanding on what that means. The Church is to blame too. I think even in the Church, there are a lot of misunderstanding here.

Here what being Christian means to me on a daily basis from my personal experience. I am a sinner. No matter how hard I try, I always end up to that conclusion, I am a sinner and I do what is hurtful. Even when I think I am doing good, I realize that my motives are not pure. I know that the concept of sin is not very popular, and many say that sin is relative.. But from my experience it's not. Guilt is not something that my brain just makes up.. I think it's proof that man has that knowledge of good and evil.

Because of that sin which we chose, there is a separation between us and God. There is nothing I can do to get back in the right place, nothing I can do to deserve God's favor. But I believe with all my heart that because God loved us so much, he gave his only son Jesus to take the punishment of our sin on himself. Accepting that free gift by giving our hearts to Jesus means that we are no longer living enslaved to sin and its punishment which is death. But it means that we now belong to Christ, hence the name "Christian". That does not make me good or better, not at all.. But that makes Him in me shine.

Those are my beliefs and only hope. :-)

Posted by: Wallimann Mar 22 2008, 11:05 PM

QUOTE (leedbreak @ Mar 22 2008, 02:32 AM) *
Yes, I Praise Him as well.

Its like having Flowers at your door...
Could be luck or maybe chance even a wrong address, but we all rather think some body loves us. A perfect sunset, shooting star, babbling brook, laugh of our child, yeah, If you don't mind me saying, I think somebody loves us.

I have more to say.

I love to look at everything from just what if....

Take humans for instance. We went from riding horses to the space shuttle in less than 100 years. From the printing press to the internet in about the same time.

So lets say you take human advancement up say 100,000 or shoot lets just go for 50M years. I feel it is very possible that we will be able to create new life, add a balance to an other wise, void planet. And so on. Even rebuild the body to give ever lasting life.

Thinking this way just means that it is very possible for there to be something that could have created us and this planet maybe even the whole universe.

I love how science and the bible both start at Nothing then something. BANG, here we are? Gee now what?

So yes, I believe in God, since it is very possible.

More from IMHO


I feel that He wants all of us to go to heaven but yet he does not come back yet, for his own fear of who will reject Him. Just like choosing which kid you will save and which one you will not. The one that ran to you for love, advise and mostly listened to the advise, will be the one you bring up with both hands. But it will still tear your heart apart. When the end is here, God maybe crying since some may not want his love.
A Testimony:

One day about 3 years ago I was out in my boat fishing, go figure. There is a nice sized mountain next to the lake. The bible says God will move that mountain, not because we ask Him to but because we believe He will, after we ask. It is not how you ask but how you believe.

On that day I looked up at the mountain and Told God to move that mountain just to prove to me that He was there. I was over run with emotion and really believed he would move it. But it did not move. The very next day I as looked at the mountain and saw a clearing in the tress that was not there the day before. Since then they have continued clearing trees bulldozing and building subdivisions. Every time I look at that mountain I feel His presence run all over me and he says, Look here you believed I would move it, so I am. Every Single time I see that mountain there is a noticeable a change.


Most of what we ask/pray for is already done, it is just not reveled to us and until it is, it is not there.



I love that story man! :-)

Posted by: D.Robinson Mar 22 2008, 11:10 PM

QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 22 2008, 05:03 PM) *
It's always a little delicate to share your beliefs with others.
I think mostly because when you have strong beliefs about something, which are certitudes for you, you sound intolerant with others...

But I guess since the topic is clear, it's appropriate to tell what your beliefs are here and I would feel wrong not sharing with you. I don't want to sound like I know it all, because I don't. I also don't want to sound like I am better than anyone else. I think quite the opposite.

I'm a Christian. I think there are a lot of misunderstanding on what that means. The Church is to blame too. I think even in the Church, there are a lot of misunderstanding here.

Here what being Christian means to me on a daily basis from my personal experience. I am a sinner. No matter how hard I try, I always end up to that conclusion, I am a sinner and I do what is hurtful. Even when I think I am doing good, I realize that my motives are not pure. I know that the concept of sin is not very popular, and many say that sin is relative.. But from my experience it's not. Guilt is not something that my brain just makes up.. I think it's proof that man has that knowledge of good and evil.

Because of that sin which we chose, there is a separation between us and God. There is nothing I can do to get back in the right place, nothing I can do to deserve God's favor. But I believe with all my heart that because God loved us so much, he gave his only son Jesus to take the punishment of our sin on himself. Accepting that free gift by giving our hearts to Jesus means that we are no longer living enslaved to sin and its punishment which is death. But it means that we now belong to Christ, hence the name "Christian". That does not make me good or better, not at all.. But that makes Him in me shine.

Those are my beliefs and only hope. :-)


That was elegantly put point David, i think really that for most Christians to put this simple idea into practice is a difficult challenge but it is at the core of our belief. Pefection thru faith and grace is the only constant for me. Some people require more proof but for me part of the proof is in my own constant search for spiritual truth.

Daniel

Posted by: leedbreak Mar 22 2008, 11:16 PM

QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 22 2008, 04:03 PM) *
Those are my beliefs and only hope. :-)


Amen brothers

Another testimony. Last one I promise
About 8 years ago I was flipping through channels and there was a preacher saying the same thing as many TV evangelist say. Send them money to help the kingdom of God. Some are ok but I always think you should keep your offering local unless tragedy strikes.

This preacher was saying test God. Make an offering to a church and pray to God that you are doing this as test to see what happens. I feel God will give you proof on a couple occasions in your life and we are aloud to ask for proof. Not everything, as that would defeat the whole purpose of faith.

So I Wrote a check for $50.00 and sent it to my mother in law's church since I was not attending one then. As I set the envelope in the pile of out going mail I told Him I was doing this as a test. About a hour later with the envelope still setting there, my wife called and said she found a twenty dollar bill on the ground at a gas station. But It did not hit me then. Next, I found a five dollar bill on the ground by my truck, still it did not hit me. Then when I got home there was a check in the mail for $136.00, where I had been over charged for my boat insurance, then it hit me. Ok proof enough for me.

More IMHO
God wants us in his will. And man that is a powerful place to be. But many do not get in his will so they have a hard time believing. When actually it is very easy to do. Just the next time you feel like some one needs your help DO it, He is asking you to. But it is not always someone asking for help. That person and their need apears in your mind.

Once you do this a few times He will reveal himself to you.
Staying in his will is hard to do and one must work everyday to get back in, but it is worth it.

Posted by: leedbreak Mar 23 2008, 12:08 AM

SPAMMING THE BOARD I AM


This is a great thread to advertise that we need a member or two more for our GMC virtual Christian band, if interested PM me or smells for more details, thanks

Posted by: tonymiro Mar 23 2008, 12:59 AM

David (and indeed all those who have a faith),
beautifully put and in many ways why,as I grow older, that I move more towards belief again.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Zephyr Mar 23 2008, 01:42 AM

I think one of the reasons that many religious people or groups are seen in the negative light that they are is that people seem to think that everyone who is a <insert religious denomination here> believes and acts exactly the same way as everyone else they can label that way. I think that every individual in the world has a unique set of beliefs. For example, I am a Christian, and many people I know are Christians, but we still believe different things and each have our own opinions. And being a Christian does not necessarily mean that a person doesn't believe other religions as well, or at least certain aspects of them.

If people could stop taking one look at a person and instantly labeling them, we'd all be a lot better off. I think it's horrible that the Islamic religion is associated with terrorists to so many people today - when in all reality, they have nothing to do with each other. The same idea applies to Christianity, Christians today are seen by many as close-minded, intolerant people, only because there are some out there that really are that way. Bad news travels much faster than good news, it seems that when a member of a religion does something horrible, the entire religion instantly gets a bad reputation.

Another thing that bothers me is when people try to force their religion down other people's throats. I think that's just horrible, trying to make people believe something that's not truly their beliefs, but your own. I mean, I would like to see more people being religious today, but I'm not going to try and force them to be someone they're not.

*End rant.* laugh.gif

Posted by: skennington Mar 23 2008, 02:11 AM

QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 21 2008, 09:46 AM) *
Believer for me. I believe there is only one true God, creator of all things. :-)
That belief is actually my only hope. :-)


"And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], . . . choose you this day whom ye will serve; . . . but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:2, 15).

Yes, I'm quoting the Bible! smile.gif

Posted by: leedbreak Mar 23 2008, 03:20 AM

QUOTE (Zephyr @ Mar 22 2008, 06:42 PM) *
I think one of the reasons that many religious people or groups are seen in the negative light that they are is that people seem to think that everyone who is a <insert religious denomination here> believes and acts exactly the same way as everyone else they can label that way. I think that every individual in the world has a unique set of beliefs. For example, I am a Christian, and many people I know are Christians, but we still believe different things and each have our own opinions. And being a Christian does not necessarily mean that a person doesn't believe other religions as well, or at least certain aspects of them.

If people could stop taking one look at a person and instantly labeling them, we'd all be a lot better off. I think it's horrible that the Islamic religion is associated with terrorists to so many people today - when in all reality, they have nothing to do with each other. The same idea applies to Christianity, Christians today are seen by many as close-minded, intolerant people, only because there are some out there that really are that way. Bad news travels much faster than good news, it seems that when a member of a religion does something horrible, the entire religion instantly gets a bad reputation.

Another thing that bothers me is when people try to force their religion down other people's throats. I think that's just horrible, trying to make people believe something that's not truly their beliefs, but your own. I mean, I would like to see more people being religious today, but I'm not going to try and force them to be someone they're not.

*End rant.* laugh.gif


Great points.

Posted by: leedbreak Mar 23 2008, 03:23 AM

QUOTE (skennington @ Mar 22 2008, 07:11 PM) *
"And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], . . . choose you this day whom ye will serve; . . . but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:2, 15).

Yes, I'm quoting the Bible! smile.gif


Yes, and boy don't we have to choose one in almost everything you ever do. WOW

Posted by: Unleash-The-Shred Mar 23 2008, 03:26 AM

QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 21 2008, 09:46 AM) *
Believer for me. I believe there is only one true God, creator of all things. :-)
That belief is actually my only hope. :-)


I have to agree with you.

Posted by: skennington Mar 23 2008, 03:33 AM

QUOTE (leedbreak @ Mar 22 2008, 10:23 PM) *
Yes, and boy don't we have to choose one in almost everything you ever do. WOW


Absolutely! I wake up every morning and ask the Lord to take me and my family thru the day. And then thank him for it every night.

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 23 2008, 04:21 AM

wow...I was convinsed that this type of topic would never come up here on the GMC...

and I wish that did not hapend....becouse this is very tuchy subject...

This is site that should be interest only in M U S I C ......

and that things like lets make a Christian band...call me on my PM would not had hapend....

couse the members of this M U S I C A L site who are not Christians would not be left beside...


Posted by: The Uncreator Mar 23 2008, 04:35 AM

They are still free to start any band of there own smile.gif

I think this topic has been nice and constructive thus far, very good discussions smile.gif

Posted by: Slammer Mar 23 2008, 04:40 AM

QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Mar 22 2008, 11:35 PM) *
think this topic has been nice and constructive thus far, very good discussions smile.gif



That's true.

And Also this is the " Off-Topic Discussions" section. Which it says on the Forum
QUOTE
Discuss anything - no need to relate to guitar playing at all.


wink.gif

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 23 2008, 04:42 AM

QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Mar 23 2008, 04:35 AM) *
They are still free to start any band of there own smile.gif

I think this topic has been nice and constructive thus far, very good discussions smile.gif

yes then you think that one way religius invitation to make a band on the site that is "home" of all the members(all religions) is ok?

maybe this way of action limits the members that are not by their choice Christians..and who think that would be intersting to participate in band....but they cant...becouse ther are not Christians?

Posted by: The Uncreator Mar 23 2008, 05:09 AM

QUOTE (Nemanja @ Mar 22 2008, 07:42 PM) *
maybe this way of action limits the members that are not by their choice Christians..and who think that would be intersting to participate in band....but they cant...becouse ther are not Christians?


It works the same way with genres, some people want to start a band with a certain theme, thats why we have different kinds, this one happens to be Christian themed, its no big deal.

Someone starts a band thats Metal, But some members wont go into it because they dont like metal, and the ones that do, Join. Same thing here, the people that arent christian are free to start/ join any band of there choosing.

Posted by: Tmas Mar 23 2008, 05:13 AM

QUOTE (Nemanja @ Mar 22 2008, 11:42 PM) *
yes then you think that one way religius invitation to make a band on the site that is "home" of all the members(all religions) is ok?

maybe this way of action limits the members that are not by their choice Christians..and who think that would be intersting to participate in band....but they cant...becouse ther are not Christians?


There are plenty of opportunities on this site to participate in many things such as colabs and other virtual bands. I don't think one person posting an invitation to join a virtual christian band limits others in any way. However, to not allow discussion on this topic or disallow religious invitations would.

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 23 2008, 05:26 AM

QUOTE (Tmas @ Mar 23 2008, 05:13 AM) *
There are plenty of opportunities on this site to participate in many things such as colabs and other virtual bands. I don't think one person posting an invitation to join a virtual christian band limits others in any way. However, to not allow discussion on this topic or disallow religious invitations would.

from my prospective it is difernet,there for I sad my opinion...and to me this kind of invitation is not good...
Howeever me being the only one who thinks this way...I will not say anything else....I understand the point you and others had told me ...and respect it.....so Im going to wach Star Track.....smile.gif

P.s I am Christian by birth....now I do not belive in God...I belive in people that are good and honest...

Posted by: Tmas Mar 23 2008, 05:47 AM

I myself am a Christian but I also think many beliefs and practices of the Christian church are flawed. Throughout history the Christian church has always commanded a certain amount of respect and power in many peoples lives, and unfortunately many people have used this to their advantage. I remember a few years back seeing holy water being sold on tv.. I mean really.. these were packets of "Holy Water?" It looked like little packets of ketchup for crying out loud! Oh, and then of course its followed by dozens of testimonials of people who claim that it changed my life, or it cured my herpes! Well, maybe not the last one but it's stuff like this that really smears they names of Christians everywhere. Just because someone calls themself a "Christian" it doesn't really make them one.

Another thing that bothers me is how soo many churches preach to be "Fishers of Men" and basically go out and recruit. I believe that it is important but there are other ways to go about this than to get in someone's face and argue a point until he/she thinks your a complete nut/A-hole. I have many friends that are atheist but that doesn't mean that every time I am around them that I should try to convince them that there is a god. The best way to bring someone closer to god is to lead by example, not spit out bible verses like an encyclopedia! smile.gif

That being said, I'm not trying to press my views on anyone here. Just attempted to shed some light onto what I believe.. and how angry I am at the so called "Christians" that put greed before their faith.

Posted by: Sam Hook Mar 23 2008, 10:46 AM

QUOTE (Nemanja @ Mar 23 2008, 03:21 AM) *
couse the members of this M U S I C A L site who are not Christians would not be left beside...


I'm not Christian and I feel fine about there being a Christian virtual band, there are plenty of other virtual bands to join and it's just a different genre of music, like Black metal or funk. I don't think anyone's being left out, so it's all goood. smile.gif

Posted by: AudunESP Mar 23 2008, 11:09 AM

QUOTE (Nemanja @ Mar 23 2008, 04:42 AM) *
yes then you think that one way religius invitation to make a band on the site that is "home" of all the members(all religions) is ok?

maybe this way of action limits the members that are not by their choice Christians..and who think that would be intersting to participate in band....but they cant...becouse ther are not Christians?

As i saw it, Leedbreak did actualy state that you didn't have to be christian to yoin Walley soldiers.
If he/she don't want to yoin the band becouse it sing about christan belief, it is the same thing as he/she not participating of the reason that they play jazz, and he/she don't prefer to play jazz smile.gif
A christian band would never be the "home" of all christians, becouse it is not a collection or anything, its just a group of people who likes to play and write songs with christian content smile.gif
I understand your complaint, and i agree that subjects like this may make groups and/or arguments. But relax, thinks like that simply can't happen here at GMC smile.gif

I myself is christian, and i think its cool that we have a christian band smile.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 23 2008, 03:36 PM

QUOTE (Sam Hook @ Mar 23 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I'm not Christian and I feel fine about there being a Christian virtual band, there are plenty of other virtual bands to join and it's just a different genre of music, like Black metal or funk. I don't think anyone's being left out, so it's all goood. smile.gif


Same here,as long as the cause is good and shares nice vibes,it's good. smile.gif


Posted by: Danilo Capezzuto Mar 23 2008, 03:46 PM

Sure there' s a God, but he don't look at the earth.

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 23 2008, 03:50 PM

I got nothing against a christian band.. i'm not christian or religious at all, but too me it's the same as someome getting together to start a (for example) country-band because they all like countrymusic.

..and hopefully it will sound like Stryper biggrin.gif

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Mar 23 2008, 03:58 PM

Anyone want to start an Islamic, Bhuddist or Hindu band ? All are welcome on GMC smile.gif

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 23 2008, 06:20 PM

sorry guys it was from the best intention...couse I v seen what this kind disscusinons could do to the forums...and that things some times go the wrong way...that is all....smile.gif

Posted by: Trond Vold Mar 23 2008, 06:29 PM

QUOTE (Nemanja @ Mar 23 2008, 06:20 PM) *
sorry guys it was from the best intention...couse I v seen what this kind disscusinons could do to the forums...and that things some times go the wrong way...that is all....smile.gif


I had the same worries smile.gif I've seen forum wars emerge from less than this.
But it seems like GMC members have more sense than most other people smile.gif

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 23 2008, 06:31 PM

QUOTE (Trond Vold @ Mar 23 2008, 06:29 PM) *
I had the same worries smile.gif I've seen forum wars emerge from less than this.
But it seems like GMC members have more sense than most other people smile.gif

I agree..smile.gif GMC rules smile.gif

Posted by: Muris Mar 23 2008, 06:50 PM

It's pretty easy to start war or arguing.
What's "hard" to achieve is full understanding for any kind of difference between people.

Seems like we(GMC) are haven't found it to be hard to achieve at all. smile.gif

Posted by: Nemanja Mar 23 2008, 06:57 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 23 2008, 06:50 PM) *
It's pretty easy to start war or arguing.
What's "hard" to achieve is full understanding for any kind of difference between people.

Seems like we(GMC) are haven't found it to be hard to achieve at all. smile.gif

agree Muris...smile.gif

Posted by: skennington Mar 23 2008, 06:57 PM

I feel no person is better than the other. It's a personal belief and each has there own.

What's nice is that a guitar and GMC can bring all these differences together! smile.gif

Posted by: Smikey2006 Mar 23 2008, 07:00 PM

Yea gmc sure rocks smile.gif

Posted by: kaznie_NL Mar 23 2008, 08:39 PM

Woops, wrong. I had to vote Agnostic where I voted Atheist....Woops

Posted by: Kaneda Mar 23 2008, 10:08 PM

This is what repeatedly amazes me about this forum. No other forum I know of can keep a civil discussion about this for 7 pages. smile.gif

Me: Apathetic agnostic atheist. I don't claim to know -- nor do I think anyone ever will know -- whether there is a god or not (agnostic), but I decide not to believe in him (atheist), because I find the question of his/her/its existence meaningless, unanswerable and irrelevant to my life (apathetic).

The poll is a bit skewed, since there is such a thing as an agnostic theist (believes, but does not know), just as most atheists (except the strong ones) are agnostic (don't believe, but do not know)

Posted by: erik Mar 24 2008, 12:37 AM

I don't think there is a god. The idea of a god was started thausands of years ago, probably because people where trying to figure out how we where created. Back then a god would seem as the only logical reason of how us humans where created, because people didn't know very much about the nature, physics and evolution of species. But today science has taught us a lot on how us humans, the earth and the universe could have been created. And I think that theese theories are much more logical than the idea of a god that created it all. I mean, people probably assumed that there was a god just because they could not come up with a more logical reason. But today's theories are based on much more reliable sources, and the theory of evolution and the big bang surfaced from centuries of studiyng and learning how the nature and physics work. And since we have learned so incredibly much on nature and physics over the years, scientists have come up with a theory that makes so much more sense to me.

I used to be christian when I was a kid, but now the idea of a god just seems silly to me. I mean the idea of a god is the most simple answer people could possibly think of. It's almost like saying that it rains because the "sky people" are crying... (I know that was a little extreme comparison).

By the way, theese opinions are my own and I respect those who believe in God, even though I absolutly do not believe in god myself..

Posted by: Enucleation Mar 24 2008, 06:06 AM

I am a Christian. smile.gif

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Mar 24 2008, 02:08 PM

I'm ortodox christian, but wanna avoid the subject, because I'm very open minded in terms of religions. For all I care any religion is the same for me, they all share some great ideas how people should behave, and if only people just listened to those wise words they would live a whole lot better instead of using religion as a mean of politics and making material wealth.

Posted by: The Uncreator Mar 24 2008, 03:03 PM

QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Mar 24 2008, 05:08 AM) *
For all I care any religion is the same for me, they all share some great ideas how people should behave, and if only people just listened to those wise words they would live a whole lot better instead of using religion as a mean of politics and making material wealth.


+1

Posted by: Toni Suominen Mar 24 2008, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (Milenkovic Ivan @ Mar 24 2008, 03:08 PM) *
I'm ortodox christian, but wanna avoid the subject, because I'm very open minded in terms of religions. For all I care any religion is the same for me, they all share some great ideas how people should behave, and if only people just listened to those wise words they would live a whole lot better instead of using religion as a mean of politics and making material wealth.


+1 Excellent words my friend smile.gif

Posted by: Twibeard Mar 24 2008, 03:35 PM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzKp2PeXeWI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q32w0ExbsvM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ5grNkfkvo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvlpiq1jHCU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhhSH7ctj8s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n_2ivHUUmI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kV38brHb7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9pAkVxbad8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDN55kfYjYI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pn_JIMXX1Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW9dEc0KlO8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWmiBCa2YBk&feature=related

Posted by: leedbreak Mar 24 2008, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (Muris @ Mar 23 2008, 11:50 AM) *
It's pretty easy to start war or arguing.
What's "hard" to achieve is full understanding for any kind of difference between people.

Seems like we(GMC) are haven't found it to be hard to achieve at all. smile.gif


Yep, I think this is because as a whole GMC folks are very reasonable people no mater what they believe

Posted by: leedbreak Mar 24 2008, 05:08 PM

QUOTE (Nemanja @ Mar 22 2008, 09:42 PM) *
yes then you think that one way religius invitation to make a band on the site that is "home" of all the members(all religions) is ok?

maybe this way of action limits the members that are not by their choice Christians..and who think that would be intersting to participate in band....but they cant...becouse ther are not Christians?


I have stated that one would not have to be Christian to join, but just not be against it.

If you are displeased with this thread or think a Christian Band on GMC should not be aloud, you might be considered against it. But other wise it is all about music and our love for it.

Posted by: Norven Apr 13 2008, 12:28 PM

Just find this topic.
I am a Christian believer.

One thing that I think is very interesting is the Evolution-theory. Very many people says it´s Science.
But what i science? If you hit science on wiki they say it´s the same as knowledge. Things that you can prove.
The evolution theory is really a religion in it self.

As said before in this topic some says that atheist has no moral, that christians and muslims killed a whole lot of people.
A person who says that atheists don´t have moral, that´s just rubbish.
And the killing thing, people has in everytime hided themselfes behind religion and says they do it in the name of Jesus/Alah etc. I don´t think all people in the world are confused by the message from The bible , Koran etc. They are confused by the followers. What they have done and what they do today.
If you say you believe in jesus doesn´t mean that you are a christian

Tell me if something isn´t clear what I write. My english isn´t the best:)

Posted by: Fsgdjv Apr 13 2008, 12:57 PM

Woah, I missed this topic.

Anyways, I'm agnostic if anything, but that isn't really what I am either. I just like to not think about it as we cannot know anything about this for sure. Both theists and atheists are as much of a religious and irational view on the world for me.

Posted by: Norven Apr 13 2008, 07:33 PM

QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Apr 13 2008, 12:57 PM) *
Both theists and atheists are as much of a religious and irational view on the world for me.


It´s hard to prove it yes. The bible is very much accepted as a true historic book. Many things are proved in it. (doesn´t prove there is a god though)
Science the last 2-300 years have tried to prove that the creation never occured. But the more scientists explore, the more evidence for the creation belief comes up.

Posted by: Hisham Al-Sanea Apr 13 2008, 07:47 PM

believe in god

Posted by: Fsgdjv Apr 13 2008, 08:34 PM

QUOTE (Norven @ Apr 13 2008, 08:33 PM) *
It´s hard to prove it yes. The bible is very much accepted as a true historic book. Many things are proved in it. (doesn´t prove there is a god though)
Science the last 2-300 years have tried to prove that the creation never occured. But the more scientists explore, the more evidence for the creation belief comes up.


What I said was more ment to critisize atheists, because if you believe in something you can't prove, then you just believe and that's fine for me, but I just get annoyed by atheists that think they are so smart and rational yet still believe in the fact that there is no god. (wich hasn't been proven)

Posted by: Robin Apr 13 2008, 08:46 PM

QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Apr 13 2008, 07:34 PM) *
What I said was more ment to critisize atheists, because if you believe in something you can't prove, then you just believe and that's fine for me, but I just get annoyed by atheists that think they are so smart and rational yet still believe in the fact that there is no god. (wich hasn't been proven)

actually i think you got your definition of atheists a bit wrong.

Atheist = one who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods.

its not one who believes that there arent any.

Posted by: Fsgdjv Apr 13 2008, 09:17 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Apr 13 2008, 09:46 PM) *
actually i think you got your definition of atheists a bit wrong.

Atheist = one who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods.

its not one who believes that there arent any.

Oh, well, if so, what's the difference between atheists and agnosticists? But I'm sure you're right, I'm not that good at knowing the terms and all that, but I do know lots of self claimed atheists that are stating that there is no god as a fact, and it's that I get a bit annoyed by, nothing else. Or, they can state that as long as they don't look down on religious people for believeing in what they believe in.

But, on the other hand, I shouldn't really say that much about religion as I I'm so far from caring about it all as you could possibly get.

Posted by: Robin Apr 13 2008, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Apr 13 2008, 08:17 PM) *
Oh, well, if so, what's the difference between atheists and agnosticists? But I'm sure you're right, I'm not that good at knowing the terms and all that, but I do know lots of self claimed atheists that are stating that there is no god as a fact, and it's that I get a bit annoyed by, nothing else. Or, they can state that as long as they don't look down on religious people for believeing in what they believe in.

But, on the other hand, I shouldn't really say that much about religion as I I'm so far from caring about it all as you could possibly get.

i think an agnostic is one who think its impossible to ever know whether there is or isnt a god.

And of course! there are atheists that claim to know that there arent any gods, but then again there are theists that claim to know that there is one. but the definitions of atheism and theism doesnt say anything like that. some poeple call themself "strong atheist" or "strong theist". they claim to know.

Posted by: Juan M. Valero Apr 13 2008, 10:29 PM

Agnostic here. I don't know if God exists or not... both ways are possible unsure.gif

Posted by: Smikey2006 Apr 13 2008, 10:53 PM

Nihlist.. i just don't care biggrin.gif

Posted by: Fsgdjv Apr 13 2008, 10:54 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Apr 13 2008, 10:25 PM) *
i think an agnostic is one who think its impossible to ever know whether there is or isnt a god.

And of course! there are atheists that claim to know that there arent any gods, but then again there are theists that claim to know that there is one. but the definitions of atheism and theism doesnt say anything like that. some poeple call themself "strong atheist" or "strong theist". they claim to know.

Oh, yeah, you're completely right. All these names are too much for me. laugh.gif

Posted by: stratman33 Apr 13 2008, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Apr 13 2008, 05:54 PM) *
Oh, yeah, you're completely right. All these names are too much for me. laugh.gif

ya really i cant keep them all straight blink.gif

Posted by: Tsarpf Apr 13 2008, 11:30 PM

there was nothing interesting here, so I removed it

Posted by: Spreedmaster Apr 13 2008, 11:38 PM

I'm a scientist! tongue.gif If it aint proven, I aint belivin' it.

Posted by: JVM Apr 14 2008, 02:12 AM

It's kind of a funny subject. I'm agnostic, and to alleviate any confusion I mean that to say that I have no idea whats going on. I can't prove a god, I can't disprove a god. So I'm in the middle.

The person who brought up the point that science is much like a religion itself is very correct. Science is just as faith based as religion. It is a system. The scientific method, and all the papers and articles and theories written by it, is the bible.

I sometimes find it interesting to ponder why many early religions that came before judaism, islam, etc have died out. The general populace finds them ridiculous now. At the same time, where will we be 100, 200, 1000 years from now? Assuming we haven't died out (and I'm betting we don't, perhaps another thread for that). Every time a major disaster happens, some people start pointing fingers and claim it to be a sign of the apocalypse. They did it during the years of the plague (for good reason I'm going to say) and well before. For how much longer?

Sometimes also I wonder, what it is about music that I love? Why do I feel like playing music (or indeed doing any kind of art) can be an important life goal as opposed to something logical like saving lives as a doctor? Is it just that I want the fortune and fame of being a popular musician? It isn't, so there has to be some faith in there that I'm doing some good. Down below that, there has to be a reason that I even care if I do good or not. I think that is where religion begins for a lot of people. Personally I choose to believe that we have "guilt" and conscious because our base instincts are to see the survival of ourselves, and also our species. We want out species to survive because it is in our best interest. So it makes sense to do good things that benefit our species, because in the end it benefits us.

We know that if we don't act together in some way, we won't make it. It's the old united we stand, divided we fall. What is it that even drives us to want to survive though? We can keep asking ourselves ever deeper questions until our heads explode. Perhaps it's simply curiosity. What does life have to offer, we wanna know. Perhaps there is a spiritual force watching over us. Maybe we all really think the same thing in the end but thing of it in different terms (god, science, flying spaghetti monster). Maybe I'm rambling too much.

smile.gif I think it's interesting, but I also think its too much for our heads to comprehend right now.

Posted by: Nemanja Filipovic Apr 14 2008, 02:20 AM

QUOTE (leedbreak @ Mar 24 2008, 06:08 PM) *
I have stated that one would not have to be Christian to join, but just not be against it.

If you are displeased with this thread or think a Christian Band on GMC should not be aloud, you might be considered against it. But other wise it is all about music and our love for it.

you are right,I was out of line...but as I sad,I had to many bad expiriances,with this kind of subjects,I did not wont it to go the bad way...I am glad that GMC is a great community,and that this kind of thing(forum wars)are not possible here...
once again,I am sorry,did not mean to offend any body.....smile.gif

Posted by: skennington Apr 14 2008, 02:46 AM

Since this one has been brought back, Who believes in Heaven and Hell? Kinda the same thing but if you were dieing, which way would you be looking? If you are truly a non-believer, would you simply bow out? Or, would you in fact call for someone,something to save you from a place you dont believe in? Just curious. smile.gif

Posted by: drummingguitarist06 Apr 14 2008, 02:47 AM

I am actually a Deist. It's funny that I have an original thought here...smile.gif

For those who do not know what deism is:

Deism is a religious philosophy and movement that derives the existence and nature of God from reason and personal experience. Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not intervene with the affairs of human life and the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.


If anyone wants to learn more, feel free to PM.

Posted by: JVM Apr 14 2008, 03:10 AM

QUOTE (Twibeard @ Mar 24 2008, 10:35 AM) *


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzKp2PeXeWI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q32w0ExbsvM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ5grNkfkvo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvlpiq1jHCU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhhSH7ctj8s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n_2ivHUUmI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kV38brHb7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9pAkVxbad8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDN55kfYjYI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pn_JIMXX1Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW9dEc0KlO8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWmiBCa2YBk&feature=related


About halfway through these. Thanks for the links.

Posted by: dropbman Apr 14 2008, 05:22 AM

QUOTE (Smikey2006 @ Apr 13 2008, 02:53 PM) *
Nihlist.. i just don't care biggrin.gif

"Oh that must be exhausting"
quote from The Big Lebowski lol

I'm an atheist. I was an agnostic for awhile but then I read two books by Sam Harris "Letter to a Christian Nation" and "The End of Faith" both are fun, quick, enlightening reads. I will say, also, that I have no problem with theism, as long as no one attempts to force it on me or anyone for that matter. A cool fact is that Islamic Terrorism is frowned upon by the Koran as real Muslims did not have the religion forced upon them but grew up in it and accepted it. And I don't see how atheism=amorality. Society is the basis for you moral compass and unless your a backwoods hick you'll know that killing someone is wrong no matter what. I also believe in evolutionism. Mainly because reason is the all encompassing, end all be all and right now creation has less proof than evolution.


P.S. Marx and Engels were socialists not card carryin commies

Posted by: kyldeee Apr 14 2008, 07:08 AM

I don't really think it that much, but I would say that I'm Agnostic... There are things that I want to believe and somethings that I just don't, even if it came and bit me in the a** biggrin.gif

Posted by: Norven Apr 14 2008, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (dropbman @ Apr 14 2008, 05:22 AM) *
right now creation has less proof than evolution.


the only thing about evolution that is proved is actually the "micro-evolution".
Macro evolution is nothing more than a theory.

The thought that my grand grand grand (etc. etc. etc.) father was a rock is just inzane.
Then we shouldn´t jump on rocks? because if we wait several billions years they will become living things.

Posted by: Robin Apr 14 2008, 01:40 PM

QUOTE (Norven @ Apr 14 2008, 11:41 AM) *
The thought that my grand grand grand (etc. etc. etc.) father was a rock is just inzane.
Then we shouldn´t jump on rocks? because if we wait several billions years they will become living things.

who said that rocks turned into living things?

Posted by: Fsgdjv Apr 14 2008, 02:07 PM

Just face it, we are all retarded fish frogs ph34r.gif

Posted by: OrganisedConfusion Apr 14 2008, 02:10 PM

Interesting. It is pretty much even between believers and non believers on GMC. I stay in the middle to avaoid having an argument about something I care nothing about biggrin.gif

Posted by: Tsarpf Apr 14 2008, 02:11 PM

-

Posted by: Robin Apr 14 2008, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Apr 14 2008, 01:07 PM) *
Just face it, we are all retarded fish frogs ph34r.gif

thats right mrs. garrison tongue.gif

Posted by: Norven Apr 14 2008, 02:54 PM

QUOTE (Robin @ Apr 14 2008, 01:40 PM) *
who said that rocks turned into living things?


It´s a simplification. 20 billions years ago there was the "big bang" 4 billions years ago the earth formed and cooled down. about e billions year ago the athmosfear was developed and it started to rain. And the rain become a soup, and there bakteria developed and developed more and more and here we are today.

That´s a short version of the evolution theory.

Here is a link with a torrent
there are several seminars with Dr. Kent Hovind.
He has very interesting information.

A debate between evolution and creation.
http://www.mininova.org/tor/514165

P.s both are totally legal to download.

Posted by: FrankW May 10 2008, 02:35 PM

.

Posted by: thefireball Jun 30 2010, 05:54 AM

Well, let me tell you what I believe, since it was asked. smile.gif

I'm a Christian. In other words, I believe in God. Not only that, but Jesus' sacrifice. I believe God sent His Son to die for our wrongdoings. (sins) Jesus had to die for mankind because we are not perfect. Nobody is - we all make mistakes. God can't look at us with all this sin. Yet He loves us so much that He provided a way for us to live forever with Him in Heaven - if only we will believe with all of our heart what Jesus did for us. See, God's standards are soooo high, that we could NEVER reach them. To get into heaven on God's terms is sinless perfection. Impossible! We are human! Exactly! That's why Jesus was that sacrifice - our subsitute. Once you believe (saved) you should begin living for Jesus as a Christian should. This includes praying, reading God's Word, serving Him in church, etc.

God and Jesus are the same thing. We cannot grasp the meaning of this because we have finite minds. How could there never been a beginning with God? I don't understand it. And I won't - in this life. I have to accept it by faith. And this, my friend, is how God gets the glory. If He "pre-programmed" us to do everything right, meaning having no freewill, then where's the glory? We're doing just what He intended. Yet, if He creates us with a freewill (and He did) then we may choose to believe in Him.

I believe this with all my heart - yet I respect the people who differ. I believe God loves even those people.
But since, I believe what I believe, I say: Believe in Jesus. At least give Him one chance, and you will never be sorry.
Open your heart up to Jesus Christ - let Him into your life.

Peace out, good people! wink.gif Have a great day! smile.gif

Posted by: fkalich Jun 30 2010, 07:37 AM

I now have rejected science and and I believe in God, because this dead thread has been brought back to life, and only a god can bring the dead back to life. thefireball must be his instrument in this work. That sounds like a prophet's name, "thefireball", don't you think? Especially if he is an angry vengeful god, like in the old testament.

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Jun 30 2010, 10:05 AM

Well, in my opinion, since this thread is back alive... I believe religion in any form is the biggest farce of mankind... but that's just me. It's in man's nature to gain power and control, and it's in man's nature to seek comfort in something bigger. Somehow, this must have led to various forms of religions.

Posted by: The Uncreator Jun 30 2010, 04:48 PM

Just as a reminder, Me and the rest of the moderators will have a close eye on this thread. So lets keep any further discussion clean, friendly, and lets have no sarcastic passive aggression towards any other members. As long as the debate remains this way, We should have no problems.

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jun 30 2010, 06:54 PM

I believe in God, though my view is quite materialistic in same time, I am 100% sure we evolved from monkeys.

Posted by: thefireball Jun 30 2010, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jun 30 2010, 10:48 AM) *
Just as a reminder, Me and the rest of the moderators will have a close eye on this thread. So lets keep any further discussion clean, friendly, and lets have no sarcastic passive aggression towards any other members. As long as the debate remains this way, We should have no problems.


For sure, man. smile.gif I have no intention of making anybody mad (which I know you know that) biggrin.gif so I hope that we all at GMC can get along with each other. We are all humans - and we don't all agree. We should treat each other with kindness and respect.

GMC rules!! May it go on as long as the world stands! smile.gif

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jun 30 2010, 09:25 PM

Discussion is futile. If You are a true believer, than there are no "half-ways". You obey, or You suffer in hell forever. Any other way round is nothing more than "I wanna bannana" attitude. Also when You are a Christian and someone says to You "God doesn't exist" You should know, that the person is in violation of the ten most sacred rules in your religion, and as violation of those rules cannot be "forgiven by confession", the person is condemned to eternal hell.

So for all Christians/Jews/Muslims - obey all the rules, or call Yourself a heretic, not a Christian/Jew/Muslim. Don't know how it works in all the new, nice and easy "religions".

Of course I doubt there will be one person here on the forum, that would say all the people that have different way of thinking will burn forever, but this is just a prof that human use religion for their own profits, and find tons of excuses when something is not "along their way".

I really see no point in talking about who believes in what, we really have no prof to support any of the "ways", besides our own "inner life".

Posted by: fkalich Jun 30 2010, 09:44 PM

QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jun 30 2010, 12:54 PM) *
I believe in God, though my view is quite materialistic in same time, I am 100% sure we evolved from monkeys.


Well not exactly monkeys. We share a common ancestor.

Just ignoring the empirically unproven (such as String Theory), I find it hard to comprehend how anyone who is really scientifically literate can possibly believe in one of the traditional religions, I am not sure how they do it. But they do. My older brother does. He is well read on modern physics/cosmology, and biology/evolution. But still, it is like he has a disconnect as to the implications of that knowledge.

To me some traditional east Asian religions have more merit than what came out of the West and Middle East. Christianity today in the US is really more of a social thing than anything else. That is one reason people are often not willing to question it, or look at it as say a space alien would, seeing it as interesting how a species that has reached this level of technological sophistication still adheres to primitive superstitions. To give it up not only puts them in a void (which is frightening), but also requires them to give up a major part of their social life. They could always Join the Sierra club though. But the fear, a person is on their own there. I remember that, being raised Catholic, when I rejected it at age 22. Like a lightning bolt would come down and smite me. That gets put in a person's head, and some are not going to risk it.

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jul 1 2010, 03:23 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jun 30 2010, 10:44 PM) *
Well not exactly monkeys. We share a common ancestor.


Exactly! Evolution is a fact, other issues are steel mysterious but I like the fact that we human are basically millions of years old, and have that long history, it really gives you sense of pride and purpose. During that long times, lots of things can happen and it did happen.

Posted by: The Uncreator Jul 1 2010, 04:07 PM

A lot of people find it hard to believe in evolution, Because they can't - or don't want to - believe that we evolved from single cell organisms, or even monkeys for that matter, It seems too complex.

But evolution is a slow and sluggish vehicle. These changes occur small fractions at a time, and over tens or hundreds of millions of years, And humans only really see things in the perspectives of lifetimes, Not thousands of years, let alone millions and more. It takes a bit of work to "see" things in those great distances of time. But if we take into consideration that our evolution took millions of years, I don't find it hard to believe that we came from (essentially) stardust.

That's just a little thought of mine though.

EDIT

Also, I know some people don't like to think about evolution because it implies there is no afterlife or any similar such concepts. I would like to add that I am not discomforted by this "implication" as it were. To paraphrase Dr. Michio Kaku, "I still find great pleasure in being a child of the universe".

I kind of enjoy thinking of myself as a "child of the universe" laugh.gif

But then again, I am a total sci-fi fanboy so that might not count ph34r.gif

Posted by: thefireball Jul 1 2010, 05:42 PM

QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jul 1 2010, 09:23 AM) *
Exactly! Evolution is a fact, other issues are steel mysterious but I like the fact that we human are basically millions of years old, and have that long history, it really gives you sense of pride and purpose. During that long times, lots of things can happen and it did happen.


(Note: None of this is meant to be taken wrong. Please do not think I'm trying to start something. I'm just stating what I believe.)
I respect your opinion, but I think the reason we look so similiar to monkeys is because we have a common designer. Same with contractors and designers who build beautiful buildings. I'm sure you've gone down the street of a housing project. A lot of times they look very similiar.

Think about it: We can look at a house and say, "My, my, how beautiful this house is. This house must have been built by a well-experienced person." We say this about a house - we know that they didn't just throw a bunch of bricks, mortar, nails, screws, boards, etc into a pile and set off an explosion - then all of a sudden this house appeared!! We know this even if we had never seen the house being built.

Yet we will turn right around and say that some explosion (big bang) happened - and then - here we are! You realize how small of a chance that could've even happened? You realize that if we were any closer to the sun that summers would be too long and we would die of heat? And that if we were any further from the sun the winters would be too long and we would freeze to death?
-------------------------------------
Let's just pretend for a few minutes that you are right. If there is no God, how do you tell right from wrong? Do you decide? Do I? Remember that everybody has their own convictons. We could not possibly let everybody decide what is right and what's wrong. We must have a standard. That's why we have God to tell us what is right and wrong. Murdering, stealing, lusting, adultery, and etc is wrong because God says it's wrong. Not because man said so. Man is fallible. God is not. We can make up our rules all we want - but eventually that will lead to destruction. Bad news.

Also, assuming you're right, think about when you die. I know it's morbid, but everybody's going to die someday. We can't live forever. Then what is our purpose to life? There is no afterlife? We just live and die - and that's it? Does that not scare you that you will become non-existent? That would scare me. That's why I'm glad I don't believe any of that. I have a hope in God who has saved me from eternal punishement because I have put my faith in him and his son. I hope you will too. smile.gif

Peace out. wink.gif

Posted by: lcsdds Jul 1 2010, 05:43 PM

I stopped being religious about a year or so ago......it was a VERY difficult process for me to get through. Since then I have been free to look at other possibilities. I really connect with what this guy thinks.......His name is David Icke. Some of it is WAY OUT THERE.....but it seems to make sense to me.


http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/

Posted by: fkalich Jul 1 2010, 08:31 PM


QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 1 2010, 11:42 AM) *
Yet we will turn right around and say that some explosion (big bang) happened - and then - here we are! You realize how small of a chance that could've even happened? You realize that if we were any closer to the sun that summers would be too long and we would die of heat? And that if we were any further from the sun the winters would be too long and we would freeze to death?
......
standard. That's why we have God to tell us what is right and wrong. Murdering, stealing, lusting, adultery, and etc is wrong because God says it's wrong. Not because man said so. Man is fallible. God is not. We can make up our rules all we want - but eventually that will lead to destruction. Bad news.


Actually there is solid evidence that the bang happened, we have pictures from 200 million years after the occurrence, that validate the theory. Being that the speed of light is limited, we can look into the past like this. Just as when we see the Sun, we are actually looking 8 minutes into the past. Only in this case we are looking about 13.5 billion years into the past.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0206mapresults.html

Regarding morality, I have seen nothing in my life to indicate that your average religious believer is more ethical in behavior than those who are not. Just because a person recognizes mumbo jumbo when he sees it, does not mean he goes out raping and pillaging.

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 1 2010, 08:49 PM

I'm Christian.

I don't believe any religion is 100%, but most all have the same basic idea and teachs morals. Some just take it too far and yes religion can be taken over into brain washing and control. Everyone needs pick what to believe in, rather than just follow the leader or go and completely ignore it altogether.

QUOTE
if i was a christian.. i would probably commit suicide.. for the purpose of my soul rising to heaven

Christians believe that suicide is a sin, you can't get into heaven from killing yourself. It's like getting a gift from your friend and then destroying it in front of him so next time you hope you will get a bigger gift, just doesn't work. Life is a gift, it's up to you what to make of it.

QUOTE
Actually there is solid evidence that the bang happened

Evolution, big bang theory, etc, has more holes in it than religion. We would of evolved from monkeys, yet some didn't, and even jars of jam would have evolved into something else over the years, rather than sitting on the shelves keeping their original content when sealed. The big bang says everything came from nothing (or how was that object created?), yet you can't make anything from nothing.

The easiest way to think about it would be 'The Sims' pc game, lol. Everything is created with a purpose.

The world was created by God as a playground for his Angels (created into human form).

Time is an illusion of aging. God and Angels don't actually age. Time was invented. God always existed, therefore everything started from something.

The world was given problems. Without problems encountered, achievements wouldn't be as sweet. Every good game is designed to lose, so the win is that much better! Without evil, good would just be netural. Every Yig has a Yang.

Humans where given free will, rather than being zombie robots. Do what you will, learn from your mistake. Develop your abililities. Love each day as a gift. Learn at least one new thing a day. People start taking it all for granted.

Posted by: Karl-ss Jul 1 2010, 08:50 PM

Meh.. My funniest argument: I grew away from my fantasy friend when I got older.

The concept of a afterlife amuses me, most religion does in the way that it requires constant obedience because of a book filled with.. Pretty much disgusting nonsense, I see religion as mans invention to comprehend what it cannot comprehend. So the whole thing is a MEH, I'd rather have scientists actually figure things out.We also have the "I am so special because I was born into a faith. That means it must be correct", that kinda reminds me of racial extremism in a way. Meh religion has done too much evil towards humanity as a whole. No one is right or wrong here (Sorry Thefireball. Your confidence amuses me tho) it is all a mystery and will remain so for ages. But I'll stick to militant atheism. It does less to impede the human race. Plus wouldnt the idea of some divine being letting Tsunamis, earthquakes, pandemic disease, volcanic eruptions and nasty stuff like that happen be kinda.. Scary?

Edit

P.S Sharia courts. Wolololololo. I like freedom of speech. Oh and I also like sin. It does good things for you.

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Jul 1 2010, 08:58 PM

QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 1 2010, 06:42 PM) *
[
Let's just pretend for a few minutes that you are right. If there is no God, how do you tell right from wrong? Do you decide? Do I? Remember that everybody has their own convictons. We could not possibly let everybody decide what is right and what's wrong. We must have a standard. That's why we have God to tell us what is right and wrong. Murdering, stealing, lusting, adultery, and etc is wrong because God says it's wrong. Not because man said so. Man is fallible. God is not. We can make up our rules all we want - but eventually that will lead to destruction. Bad news.


I see what you're saying, but what if you'd consider the balance that nature strives towards, always, at all times... What you're describing would, in that case, have nothing to do with a God in anyway, just a striving to balance, given that deviations, like immoral actions, would cause an unbalance. Just like air-pressure in nature, it always seeks to be a balance

Posted by: superize Jul 1 2010, 09:01 PM

I try to care as little as possible

Posted by: Karl-ss Jul 1 2010, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Jul 1 2010, 09:58 PM) *
I see what you're saying, but what if you'd consider the balance that nature strives towards, always, at all times... What you're describing would, in that case, have nothing to do with a God in anyway, just a striving to balance, given that deviations, like immoral actions, would cause an unbalance. Just like air-pressure in nature, it always seeks to be a balance


Wololololo. Well said, plus. You see morals (as in animals not killing eachother randomly/Protecting eachother) in most species. Chimp families for example. Or of course buffalos.

Posted by: thefireball Jul 1 2010, 10:43 PM

I personally believe my salvation is secure. Even though suicide is a sin, not even that can make me lose my salvation. It takes the blood of Jesus to save me, and it takes the blood of Jesus to keep me saved. Though I would recommend you not go out and sin like the devil. Salvation is not a license to sin. Salvation is (or should be) a declaration of your living for Christ - not Satan. I will lose blessings from the Lord when I sin.

QUOTE (Rik Veldhuizen @ Jul 1 2010, 02:58 PM) *
I see what you're saying, but what if you'd consider the balance that nature strives towards, always, at all times... What you're describing would, in that case, have nothing to do with a God in anyway, just a striving to balance, given that deviations, like immoral actions, would cause an unbalance. Just like air-pressure in nature, it always seeks to be a balance


There is more than enough grace (a gift from God) to cover our sins, if we would but confess (admit) them.

Posted by: fkalich Jul 2 2010, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 1 2010, 02:49 PM) *
Evolution, big bang theory, etc, has more holes in it than religion. We would of evolved from monkeys, yet some didn't, and even jars of jam would have evolved into something else over the years, rather than sitting on the shelves keeping their original content when sealed. The big bang says everything came from nothing (or how was that object created?), yet you can't make anything from nothing.
........
Time is an illusion of aging. God and Angels don't actually age. Time was invented. God always existed, therefore everything started from something.


Regarding Evolution, big bang theory, you are writing something that just keeps being repeated, even though it makes no sense, and many people just believe it because they just keep hearing it. In fact there are no significant holes in Evolution, Origin of the Universe, General Relativity, Quantum Physics, etc. All have been solidly proven in a rigorous scholarly sense, with a few remaining issues (none of which support your arguments).

Time does exist, it is just a direction in 4 dimensional time/space. The same basic rules apply to the time direction as to the 3 spacial directions, we don't see that, or most don't because as a mammal, it was not necessary to see things that way, for survival purposes. In fact, we are always moving at a combined speed of of about 186,000 miles per second in all 4 directions. Because light goes at that speed, light waves are always at the same instance in time. If we were to be able to move like in Star Trek, time would slow down for us relative to a observer not moving with us. That is because the combined speeds in all 4 directions is 186,000 miles a second, so if we start moving real fast in a spacial direction relative to some observer, that speed can only be obtained by slowing down on the time vector.

None of this is speculative, any more than the sun rising in the East is speculative. It is all proven by empirical evidence that we have seen. Yes, in the first small fraction of a second of the Universe, the laws break down. String theory is trying to solve that issue. But other than that, this stuff is all well establish in a scientific sense.


Again, nobody says we evolved from monkeys, we share a common ancestor. The issues of question dealing with Evolution actually are pretty minor, all the important parts are solidly proven, if a person is willing to accept proof (which many are not). This stuff is well established, and proven universally to any, and I mean any, and I mean any, and I repeat, any serous academic scholar. None of this is speculative.

The only difference in believing in Christianity or any of the other two religions of the book, and believing in the Easter Bunny, is that we are pretty sure that some individual did exist, in whose name the religions were founded. Whereas we are pretty sure there never was any Easter Bunny.

Regarding morality and ethics in the sense we understand them, I have seen nothing to convince me that the average "believer" has a higher code of behavior than your average atheist. Not in the least, not in any meaningful sense.

Posted by: Aleksander Sukovic Jul 2 2010, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 21 2008, 03:47 PM) *
I am with you about the conditions that are not perfect.
My explanation to that is sin. :-)


I second that explanation wink.gif

Posted by: Aleksander Sukovic Jul 2 2010, 03:57 PM

QUOTE (Wallimann @ Mar 23 2008, 12:03 AM) *
It's always a little delicate to share your beliefs with others.
I think mostly because when you have strong beliefs about something, which are certitudes for you, you sound intolerant with others...

But I guess since the topic is clear, it's appropriate to tell what your beliefs are here and I would feel wrong not sharing with you. I don't want to sound like I know it all, because I don't. I also don't want to sound like I am better than anyone else. I think quite the opposite.

I'm a Christian. I think there are a lot of misunderstanding on what that means. The Church is to blame too. I think even in the Church, there are a lot of misunderstanding here.

Here what being Christian means to me on a daily basis from my personal experience. I am a sinner. No matter how hard I try, I always end up to that conclusion, I am a sinner and I do what is hurtful. Even when I think I am doing good, I realize that my motives are not pure. I know that the concept of sin is not very popular, and many say that sin is relative.. But from my experience it's not. Guilt is not something that my brain just makes up.. I think it's proof that man has that knowledge of good and evil.

Because of that sin which we chose, there is a separation between us and God. There is nothing I can do to get back in the right place, nothing I can do to deserve God's favor. But I believe with all my heart that because God loved us so much, he gave his only son Jesus to take the punishment of our sin on himself. Accepting that free gift by giving our hearts to Jesus means that we are no longer living enslaved to sin and its punishment which is death. But it means that we now belong to Christ, hence the name "Christian". That does not make me good or better, not at all.. But that makes Him in me shine.

Those are my beliefs and only hope. :-)


Exactly what every Christian should think like smile.gif

Btw, I'm Orthodox Christian smile.gif

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 2 2010, 10:34 PM

You say Santa - it was by Coka Cola as a marketing imagine created from the real christain Saint Nick who donated toys to the less fortunate.

You say Easter Bunny and Chocolate Eggs - it was created to cover the real symbol of the egg which is the birth of Christ.

You say Evolution - it was created from somewhere wasn't it? The next evolution world cycle will be 2012, hope the world doesn't end in your case? Evolution can't explain why birds fly but we don't, we all should evolve the same in the same environment. There are hundreds of different animals like giraffes and elephants which can't be explained through Evolution. Female cannot change the chromosomes within her eggs and cannot have any effect upon her offspring. DNA repair process proves the evolutionary theory is wrong because it attempts to repair any changes.

You say Time - time is only a calculation from man, it's not even correctly calculated, leap years? They have found more than 4 dimensions in fact there are about 10 or 11 dimensions - most we still don't know much about.

Everything is created as a blur of the original, but the original still remains.
Christain religion just so happens to be mixed into everything one way or another.

So if your Christian and it's all just a big lie from thousands of years (just like that american moon landing) you are still believing something for a greater good, and teach your children good morals, standards, the act of helping others and giving (so long not been corrupted).

If your not Christian, you tell lies to cover up the true meaning of Christmas, Easter and almost all the holidays, etc (and know it's a full out lie).

It's up to you what to make of it?

Posted by: Karl-ss Jul 2 2010, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 2 2010, 11:34 PM) *
You say Santa - it was by Coka Cola as a marketing imagine created from the real christain Saint Nick who donated toys to the less fortunate.

You say Easter Bunny and Chocolate Eggs - it was created to cover the real symbol of the egg which is the birth of Christ.

You say Evolution - it was created from somewhere wasn't it? The next evolution world cycle will be 2012, hope the world doesn't end in your case? Evolution can't explain why birds fly but we don't, we all should evolve the same in the same environment. There are hundreds of different animals like giraffes and elephants which can't be explained through Evolution. Female cannot change the chromosomes within her eggs and cannot have any effect upon her offspring. DNA repair process proves the evolutionary theory is wrong because it attempts to repair any changes.

You say Time - time is only a calculation from man, it's not even correctly calculated, leap years? They have found more than 4 dimensions in fact there are about 10 or 11 dimensions - most we still don't know much about.

Everything is created as a blur of the original, but the original still remains.
Christain religion just so happens to be mixed into everything one way or another.

So if your Christian and it's all just a big lie from thousands of years (just like that american moon landing) you are still believing something for a greater good, and teach your children good morals, standards, the act of helping others and giving (so long not been corrupted).

If your not Christian, you tell lies to cover up the true meaning of Christmas, Easter and almost all the holidays, etc (and know it's a full out lie).

It's up to you what to make of it?


TL;dr most stuff as I cant be assed arguing evolution anywhere else than youtube. But the christmas thing. Christmas was a rip off of a pagan feast. Also not evolutionary cycle but solar cycle.

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 2 2010, 11:15 PM

Note: I didn't say Christmas but Santa.

I do like to see both sides of the fence before assuming anything...

Yes, I know Roman pagans celebrated between December 17-25, singing naked, raping, and ending on the 25th destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering a innocent man or woman. Sick!

Popular myth puts his birth on December 25th in the year 1 C.E. The New Testament gives no date or year for Jesus’ birth. This was just a guess based around this date. Hmm, Jesus was also innocent and brutally murdered to save the sins of mankind. Make sense for humans to label the same random day, the ending of suffering and total evil.

Christmas Tree - Pagans worshipped the trees.

The Origin of Mistletoe - Norse mythology recounts how the god Balder was killed using a mistletoe arrow.

The Origin of Christmas Presents (what I was talking about before) - Christian gift-giving of started by Saint Nicholas.

Truth is, we really have no idea if it's the correct date or not for Christmas. It is probably not! Christmas is a lie. December 25 is a day on which Jews have been shamed, tortured, and murdered. There is no Christian church with a tradition that Jesus was really born on December 25th.

(evil, more evil or one good act of kindness - what do you celebrate?)

And yes, you are correct, for the solar cycle not evolutionary cycle, that was my mistake.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 2 2010, 11:51 PM

Now, if God is benevolent (and omnipotent for that matter), why do innocent people die from a natural process (all created by God, according to you) such as disease?

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 3 2010, 12:34 AM

QUOTE
Now, if God is benevolent (and omnipotent for that matter), why do innocent people die from a natural process (all created by God, according to you) such as disease?


Good question, one I've puzzled over myself before...

After all, what have little children done to deserve punishment or suffering? Nothing. Yet, they suffer. If God is all loving and all powerful, why doesn't He stop this injustice from happening?


In Adam, all die. In Christ, all are made alive (1 Cor. 15:22).

Adam represented all of mankind. When he fell into sin, the Bible teaches that we fell with him (Rom. 5:12-21).

The Bible says that all people are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

When he fell, we inherited not only a sinful nature from Adam by simply being born, but we also inherited a world affected by sin as well, death, decay, disasters, etc. It didn't start out this way.

Since we are made in the image of God and we are not robots without free will, God has given to us the stature and responsibility of managing what has been given to us.

We just so happen to really suck at it...

If someone wants to say that it is unfair for Adam to represent us in the Fall, then they must also conclude that it is unfair for Jesus to represent us on the cross. This latter case would mean that we would not have salvation. This is why God set up the idea of representation, so that we could be saved.

Christian's believe in life after death, so all those innocents death may not by so in vain, would not of sinned and therefore may live in afterlife. If one has asked forgiveness and accepted Christ as their personal Savior, then we need not fear death. We will live forever in Heaven where there is no death or suffering.

You will be surprised at the number of people which turn to God at near death, maybe too late for some. However, people can also pray for the soul of others.



Think of air if you will (maybe a bad example, but just for an idea)...

You can't see air, sometimes there's wind which gives you a feeling, but most the time you can't really even feel it all around you. How do you know it's even there? You breath it, without you die. But even with the air you still can die, but it stays with you. Under water or under earth you still have some oxygen, but go too far away into space and there's no more oxygen. Oxygen does still get removed from earth, but saved by trees creating it back (call that forgiven). One of the last things which happens when your body is dead is the oxygen in your body leaves and joins the rest (call that the spirit). Same deal with your soul, the body is just a weak shell which can't survive with it, but when you leave the world, no matter the time the soul will still live on forever.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 12:53 AM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 3 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Good question, one I've puzzled over myself before...

After all, what have little children done to deserve punishment or suffering? Nothing. Yet, they suffer. If God is all loving and all powerful, why doesn't He stop this injustice from happening?


In Adam, all die. In Christ, all are made alive (1 Cor. 15:22).

Adam represented all of mankind. When he fell into sin, the Bible teaches that we fell with him (Rom. 5:12-21).

The Bible says that all people are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

When he fell, we inherited not only a sinful nature from Adam by simply being born, but we also inherited a world affected by sin as well, death, decay, disasters, etc. It didn't start out this way.

Since we are made in the image of God and we are not robots without free will, God has given to us the stature and responsibility of managing what has been given to us.

We just so happen to really suck at it...

If someone wants to say that it is unfair for Adam to represent us in the Fall, then they must also conclude that it is unfair for Jesus to represent us on the cross. This latter case would mean that we would not have salvation. This is why God set up the idea of representation, so that we could be saved.

Christian's believe in life after death, so all those innocents death may not by so in vain, would not of sinned and therefore may live in afterlife. If one has asked forgiveness and accepted Christ as their personal Savior, then we need not fear death. We will live forever in Heaven where there is no death or suffering.

You will be surprised at the number of people which turn to God at near death, maybe too late for some. However, people can also pray for the soul of others.



Think of air if you will (maybe a bad example, but just for an idea)...

You can't see air, sometimes there's wind which gives you a feeling, but most the time you can't really even feel it all around you. How do you know it's even there? You breath it, without you die. But even with the air you still can die, but it stays with you. Under water or under earth you still have some oxygen, but go too far away into space and there's no more oxygen. Oxygen does still get removed from earth, but saved by trees creating it back. One of the last things which happens when your body is dead is the oxygen in your body leaves and joins the rest. Same deal with your soul, the body is just a weak shell which can't survive with it, but when you leave the world, no matter the time it will still live on forever.


Although I respect the amount of time you spent writing your well worded reply, I must - unfortunately - say that you did not answer my question. You immediately skipped to the conclusion that an "innocent" person would be a child. Fair enough. Let's say this child was from Kenya and stillborn. Does this child believe in God? Is this child allowed into Heaven? Does ignorance infer the right to Christian (or any Semitic) privileges?

Ignoring what I just wrote. Most Christians would answer "People die because of sin. Maybe not our own sin, but because Adam hath sinned." This I find funny, because if God the Almighty predestines death, why in the world did he also *invent* the human immune system?

And please, do not preach with quotes of the Bible. The veracity and authenticity of that Work cannot be proven, nor can the existence of God himself. I am not interested in Biblical references, I am interested in personal insight and understanding.

I believe, like Muris (who some would consider a Divine being in the art of guitar playing) that honesty, integrity, decency and all other positive -y words you can find, are what defines a human being. Whether he believes in one, two, eight, fifty or no Gods should not change his right to peace and respect. Most dictators were probably religious, because, well everybody was at the time (more or less), yet they performed acts of cruelty and inhumanity. Therefore, as aforementioned, religion does not imply honesty, nor integrity, nor decency, nor any other posiitive -y word you can find.

I do not mean to offend any believers with my lengthy and inconsiderate reply. I do not consider myself a cruel human being. I have values in life, very similar to that of a Christian. One of the only things which separates me from the common Christian is that I do not believe God exists UNTIL somebody can prove that he does. Yes, we can't prove the Big Bang 100%, alright Evolution has been proven to be a valid truth (not theory). There are arguments back and forth, so we remain ignorant of the truth. I would consider myself, in that sense, an agnostic. However, the fact that God lets innocent people die just falls into irony. What if I were Christian and died of Tuberculosis? Would my Atheist best friend also be admitted past the Heavenly gates?

Lack of evidence of the non-existence of God does not prove his existence. Don't listen to me. Listen to more clever people like Pat Condell (YouTube), maybe you will even be entertained.


It was possible to be a good person prior to the convention of religion.

Posted by: MickeM Jul 3 2010, 01:42 AM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 1 2010, 09:31 PM) *
Actually there is solid evidence that the bang happened, we have pictures from 200 million years after the occurrence, that validate the theory.

Can you tell me who lit the fuse to this big explosion?

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 02:03 AM

QUOTE (MickeM @ Jul 3 2010, 02:42 AM) *
Can you tell me who lit the fuse to this big explosion?

I can't. Does this prove the existence of God? sad.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 3 2010, 02:39 AM

QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jul 1 2010, 03:23 PM) *
Exactly! Evolution is a fact, other issues are steel mysterious but I like the fact that we human are basically millions of years old, and have that long history, it really gives you sense of pride and purpose. During that long times, lots of things can happen and it did happen.


I,m sorry but evolution is not a fact . That is why they still call it a theory
it might be the best answer so far ,but is is far from fact
You need to ask yourself - is there any Data that we could attain that says that we need to rethink our hypothesizes
Basically, WE don't know what we don't know
we will use this for an example--2 plus 2 is 4- there is know new info that we can retrieve that will prove this wrong- thus it becomes a law
Science could find something tomorrow that shoes evolution to have a miscalculation and be wrong - this new information - in theory could prove that science is so far off that it would look ridiculous
That being said - it is the closest we have to prof for the start of the us so far
I just don't like when we get locked in to something- then we will not have a clear mind to see the evidence that might be in front of our face

The fact that we were created from a random universe and yet have so much order confuses me, because
randomness produces randomness not order

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jul 3 2010, 04:14 AM

I consider myself to be a Christian, and I don't believe in the theory of evolution - I view it as a faith based system for reconciling physical questions of origin, but not metaphysical questions pertaining to our experience, such as knowledge, communication, free will, identity over time, the concept of justice and law, the ability to take control of our environment, the problem of the one and the many, identity, love, sadness,... ad infonitem - basically everything that puts the hum in human smile.gif

I can't reconcile our exprience with this theory because at its core, it says that everything in our experience is the result of a purely physical reaction to laws of nature. That would eliminate any notion whatsoever of free will, and yet we experience free will - well, at least those of us who aren't determinists ^.^ Determinists have a different problem - condemning any action as immoral when they believe it had to be because it was predetermined by laws of nature.

Anyways, if I'm going to have faith in a system, it needs to answer these kinds of question for me, and the Bible basically meets my need. It leaves room for mystery, but we all have some measure of mystery in our thinking to deal with - i.e., how is it possible for God to have always been God, or what does it mean that matter always existed? Questions of original origin will always be a mystery no matter what your belief is. Sorry for the run-on sentences - it's hard for me to write just a little on this topic.

smile.gif

Oh, and music! Why do I love music so much? you guys are great - keep rockin smile.gif
Christian A.

Posted by: fkalich Jul 3 2010, 04:41 AM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 2 2010, 08:39 PM) *
I,m sorry but evolution is not a fact . That is why they still call it a theory
it might be the best answer so far ,but is is far from fact


You are using the term "theory in the" talk radio interpretation of the word, not the way a real Ph.D scientist uses it. The definition of theory for a scientist is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

Theory does not have a connotation of being "speculative". And as theories go, Evolution is clearly one of those that is the most solid, the evidence is just so overwhelming, from all corners.

Tell me one thing, even one argument with any empirical basis, that disputes evolution in any serious fashion. I know you can't, nobody can, there is no serious argument supported by any evidence. Yes theories are refined or improved on as man progresses, but Evolution is one that is pretty solid at this point, any revisions are going to be pretty minor. It all just fits too tightly.

But I know the religious arguments, when all else fails, they just say "God used the blueprint that science has uncovered, he just figured, "why create new genes for the hairless primate with the soul, just economize and use 97% of the same genes I used on Chimpanzees". That means about as much as flapping one's gum's and saying "blub blub blub blub".

Posted by: SirJamsalot Jul 3 2010, 05:40 AM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 2 2010, 08:41 PM) *
You are using the term "theory in the" talk radio interpretation of the word, not the way a real Ph.D scientist uses it. The definition of theory for a scientist is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

Theory does not have a connotation of being "speculative". And as theories go, Evolution is clearly one of those that is the most solid, the evidence is just so overwhelming, from all corners.

Tell me one thing, even one argument with any empirical basis, that disputes evolution in any serious fashion. I know you can't, nobody can, there is no serious argument supported by any evidence. Yes theories are refined or improved on as man progresses, but Evolution is one that is pretty solid at this point, any revisions are going to be pretty minor. It all just fits too tightly.

But I know the religious arguments, when all else fails, they just say "God used the blueprint that science has uncovered, he just figured, "why create new genes for the hairless primate with the soul, just economize and use 97% of the same genes I used on Chimpanzees". That means about as much as flapping one's gum's and saying "blub blub blub blub".


Theories are based on induction, which means future discoveries can always be uncovered that negate previously held beliefs - you'll recall the world was at one point in time, flat. Point being, majority consensus doesn't yield truth, only reason for believing it to be true.

All evidence is interpreted - facts don't speak for themselves, they need context in order to be understood. If you come from the standpoint that everything in our experience is physical only, then you'll never even attempt to interpret the evidence in a metaphysical light - so if the truth is grounded in a metaphysical answer, you'll never arrive at truth because you've precluded it at the outset.

Just something to consider.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 3 2010, 12:46 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 3 2010, 04:41 AM) *
You are using the term "theory in the" talk radio interpretation of the word, not the way a real Ph.D scientist uses it. The definition of theory for a scientist is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

Theory does not have a connotation of being "speculative". And as theories go, Evolution is clearly one of those that is the most solid, the evidence is just so overwhelming, from all corners.

Tell me one thing, even one argument with any empirical basis, that disputes evolution in any serious fashion. I know you can't, nobody can, there is no serious argument supported by any evidence. Yes theories are refined or improved on as man progresses, but Evolution is one that is pretty solid at this point, any revisions are going to be pretty minor. It all just fits too tightly.

But I know the religious arguments, when all else fails, they just say "God used the blueprint that science has uncovered, he just figured, "why create new genes for the hairless primate with the soul, just economize and use 97% of the same genes I used on Chimpanzees". That means about as much as flapping one's gum's and saying "blub blub blub blub".


Darwin himself said that the years of fossil records will show his theory to be true, but here we are 120 years later and we have only three our four missing links
The problem is that to go from a sea dwelling creature to a land dweller you would need 50,000 distinct species
I believe this to be the lack af evidence

Posted by: Vasilije Vukmirovic Jul 3 2010, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 1 2010, 06:42 PM) *
(Note: None of this is meant to be taken wrong. Please do not think I'm trying to start something. I'm just stating what I believe.)
I respect your opinion, but I think the reason we look so similiar to monkeys is because we have a common designer. Same with contractors and designers who build beautiful buildings. I'm sure you've gone down the street of a housing project. A lot of times they look very similiar.

Think about it: We can look at a house and say, "My, my, how beautiful this house is. This house must have been built by a well-experienced person." We say this about a house - we know that they didn't just throw a bunch of bricks, mortar, nails, screws, boards, etc into a pile and set off an explosion - then all of a sudden this house appeared!! We know this even if we had never seen the house being built.


Peace out. wink.gif


Yeah of course. Still, house is built in such a way in order to adapt to the external conditions; heat, cold, possible earthquakes, environment.
So is man. Everything is so well arranged precisely because of adaptation process.
And, we can say "well-organized" intelligently-designed only from perspective of external conditions.

Build an Eskimos Igalo in South California, and ask someone, is this intelligent? Of course no, it's melting, but in South Pole it is well-designed.
Similarly, put a man in the water, what would fish say? smile.gif

Posted by: Kristian Hyvarinen Jul 3 2010, 01:19 PM

For all who like facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence

However, I don't really think a subject such as are there divine beings out there should be discussed with facts as arguments. These are matters of faith... and even though I don't believe in God, I'm always willing to discuss my and others' beliefs. smile.gif And I'd like to remind you that evolution and God do not close one another out - evolution and Bible may do that.

Posted by: fkalich Jul 3 2010, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 3 2010, 06:46 AM) *
Darwin himself said that the years of fossil records will show his theory to be true, but here we are 120 years later and we have only three our four missing links
The problem is that to go from a sea dwelling creature to a land dweller you would need 50,000 distinct species
I believe this to be the lack af evidence


Just where did you pull these statements from? And Darwin was a lot further back than 120 years, his voyage was at around 1835, 175 years ago. And everybody knows he was in the dark in a certain fashion, he knew nothing of genetics. He was just a pioneer, that is all. Had he collaborated with Mendel, the two between them could have come up with a lot more than they did.

You need some serious literature. Some decent books are written by non-Ph.D types, but you have to be careful. There is so much nonsense dissimulated now, it is everywhere. You are best looking for books that are written by actually Scientists or Professor's in the field, because they have to be solid, as they are reviewed and critiqued by their peers. A lay author can say about anything, and the typically do, shamelessly disseminating nonsense. You won't learn anything from TV, really, TV just make you more stupid, the more you watch, no matter what you watch.

Ffor a general introduction to science in general, this is decent, and a fun book. Not written by a scientist, but still not bad, close enough to accurate in general to be very useful. It is a few years old, and a few more things have come out of genetics. Genetics is really taking charge now in research, drawing implications from Mitochondria DNA. But still a good introduction to science in general.

http://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/076790818X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278160142&sr=8-1-catcorr

Posted by: MickeM Jul 3 2010, 03:11 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 3 2010, 03:03 AM) *
I can't. Does this prove the existence of God? sad.gif

No I was just curious to know. smile.gif

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 3 2010, 05:41 AM) *
Tell me one thing, even one argument with any empirical basis, that disputes evolution in any serious fashion. I know you can't, nobody can, there is no serious argument supported by any evidence.

And in all fairness, the opposite goes too of course.
Proof in all cases, is supposed to support a theory. You simply can't prove something isn't there.
As little as you can't provide proof that God doesn't exist and had part in every step of the evolution.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 3 2010, 03:18 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 3 2010, 01:36 PM) *
Just where did you pull these statements from? And Darwin was a lot further back than 120 years, his voyage was at around 1835, 175 years ago. And everybody knows he was in the dark in a certain fashion, he knew nothing of genetics. He was just a pioneer, that is all. Had he collaborated with Mendel, the two between them could have come up with a lot more than they did.

You need some serious literature. Some decent books are written by non-Ph.D types, but you have to be careful. There is so much nonsense dissimulated now, it is everywhere. You are best looking for books that are written by actually Scientists or Professor's in the field, because they have to be solid, as they are reviewed and critiqued by their peers. A lay author can say about anything, and the typically do, shamelessly disseminating nonsense. You won't learn anything from TV, really, TV just make you more stupid, the more you watch, no matter what you watch.

Ffor a general introduction to science in general, this is decent, and a fun book. Not written by a scientist, but still not bad, close enough to accurate in general to be very useful. It is a few years old, and a few more things have come out of genetics. Genetics is really taking charge now in research, drawing implications from Mitochondria DNA. But still a good introduction to science in general.

http://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/076790818X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278160142&sr=8-1-catcorr


This is your reply
You mock me because i had the dates wrong
but what you did was ad 50 years of nothing more to the fossil record- further proving my point
but I believe that the origin of species came out in 1859
Please read my post again .I said that this is the best proof that man has yet, but science must not rule something else out based on a theory that can change.

and you still have not answered the ?
Is it possible to find new information that might prove that we have miscalculated something

Please don't be offended- but no one will ever answer this question

If you are really interested in my facts ,I will be more than happy to tell you where they come from . It might take a little time though



Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 3 2010, 03:44 PM

Since I'm here and can't get an answer

The first rule of thermal dynamics is you can't get something from nothing
So how did nothing swirling around in nothing create billions of stars
(By the way - NASA's information is that if you were to run every power plant on earth for 7 million years
you would have enough energy to run the sun for One second- and this is a small star)
running this type of energy for billions of years
Because if the
big bang
were to be true all that power would have had to be in that first explosion


Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 3 2010, 04:28 PM

Globular cluster age

In the mid-1990s, observations of globular clusters appeared to be inconsistent with the Big Bang. Computer simulations that matched the observations of the stellar populations of globular clusters suggested that they were about 15 billion years old, which conflicted with the 13.7 billion year age of the Universe. This issue was generally resolved in the late 1990s when new computer simulations, which included the effects of mass loss due to stellar winds, indicated a much younger age for globular clusters.[54] There still remain some questions as to how accurately the ages of the clusters are measured, but it is clear that these objects are some of the oldest in the Universe.

Do you see how much we don't know
With every bit of new information - Science Changes

Posted by: thefireball Jul 3 2010, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 2 2010, 05:51 PM) *
Now, if God is benevolent (and omnipotent for that matter), why do innocent people die from a natural process (all created by God, according to you) such as disease?


God works in mysterious ways. We cannot comprehend his ways. He has a purpose for everything. Sometimes those hard times are nothing more but to strengthen our faith.

QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Jul 3 2010, 07:11 AM) *
Yeah of course. Still, house is built in such a way in order to adapt to the external conditions; heat, cold, possible earthquakes, environment.
So is man. Everything is so well arranged precisely because of adaptation process.
And, we can say "well-organized" intelligently-designed only from perspective of external conditions.

Build an Eskimos Igalo in South California, and ask someone, is this intelligent? Of course no, it's melting, but in South Pole it is well-designed.
Similarly, put a man in the water, what would fish say? smile.gif


I agree about adaption - to a certain extent. If I were to move to South Africa, I would have to adapt to the hot weather, just like if I moved to Alaska; adapt to the cold. However, I don't believe in adaption in becoming a whole different species. If evolution is true, then how come we are not all the same species? What about the small organisms living now? You mean they've been sitting there for these billions of years and still haven't evolved? (That's what so funny to me) tongue.gif

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 05:54 PM

QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 3 2010, 05:54 PM) *
God works in mysterious ways. We cannot comprehend his ways. He has a purpose for everything. Sometimes those hard times are nothing more but to strengthen our faith.


No offence intended, but why would gratuitous death strengthen anybody's faith in God? Do the dying children believe in God when they are dead? Do the parents believe in God when he takes their children away?

In my opinion, on the contrary, people lose faith when death occurs for no reason, and in my experience people convert from being strongly religious to being atheist when this incidence of death takes place.

How do you know God has a purpose for everything? Do you even know for a *fact* that he exists? There is so much speculation and endless discussion, when the existence of God has yet to be stipulated.

Posted by: thefireball Jul 3 2010, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 3 2010, 11:54 AM) *
No offence implied, but why would gratuitous death strengthen anybody's faith in God? Do the dying children believe in God when they are dead? Do the parents believe in God when he takes their children away?

In my opinion, on the contrary, people lose faith when death occurs for no reason, and in my experience people convert from being strongly religious to being atheist when this incidence of death takes place.

How do you know God has a purpose for everything? Do you even know for a *fact* that he exists? There is so much speculation and endless discussion, when the existence of God has yet to be stipulated.



I take on faith that makes me believe he is real. It is my faith that makes me realize - well, this is a bad thing that has happened. But God has a purpose. I don't know what is it, but that's because God's ways are higher than mine. People who stray through their faith when things go wrong are weak in the faith - I'm sorry, but that's the truth. I don't mean to sound condesending. That's what God's Word teaches.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 06:45 PM

QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 3 2010, 06:57 PM) *
I take on faith that makes me believe he is real. It is my faith that makes me realize - well, this is a bad thing that has happened. But God has a purpose. I don't know what is it, but that's because God's ways are higher than mine. People who stray through their faith when things go wrong are weak in the faith - I'm sorry, but that's the truth. I don't mean to sound condesending. That's what God's Word teaches.

Again, God's Word... I find it odd how religion was introduced to the world after the major revolutions, including the convention of systematic agriculture, basic mathematics and written language. Maybe religion was used as a legislative power in ancient civilisations, such as Rome and Egypt? What better way to maintain order than to threaten with plague, lightning bolts and death? I am not saying religion is a negative institution, despite the endless wars and deaths in the name of religion, it is a binding and motivating force. However, in the year 2010 when countless Biblical incidents have been proven wrong by science, I find religion a somewhat fragile thing to follow.

Yes, there is conscience, altruism, but why must all of these good feelings be credited to God? Are human beings not able to decide themselves what is right and wrong? Moreover, if Christians commit the act of decency in the name of Salvation, can't this be interpreted as an act of pure selfishness?

Do persuade me, and try to be more specific than "I don't know what it is" or "God's Word".

I believe in something that is indisputably *real*. Love and altruism are real. God, on the other hand, can be discussed.

Posted by: lcsdds Jul 3 2010, 07:27 PM

Religion IMO is a way for the few to control the many......

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jul 3 2010, 07:54 PM

Religion is also an easy answer to a very hard question - "how to live". It really takes tons of time and dedication to find ones place in the world with thinking, it is endless times easier to just put few clichés and pretend "everything is clear".

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 07:57 PM

QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Jul 3 2010, 08:54 PM) *
Religion is also an easy answer to a very hard question - "how to live". It really takes tons of time and dedication to find ones place in the world with thinking, it is endless times easier to just put few clichés and pretend "everything is clear".

Actually, the judiciary system is very much based on religious texts, as the latter were already influential. "Thou shalt not kill" has been transformed into "It is punishable by law to violate the physical integrity of another human being" or something along those lines... In other words, religion is no longer the sole source of justice and order. The concept of religion is no longer as quintessential to the survival of society as it used to be... In my opinion.

Posted by: thefireball Jul 3 2010, 08:56 PM

This discussion, my point, is going nowhere. I've made my point and belief. I rest my case. I'll see you in other forums. Peace out. wink.gif


Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 3 2010, 09:37 PM

Lots of people says God takes away, oh no something bad happened and He created it so He must of caused it.

They don't see Him as also creating everything. You are given the gift of life.
Destruction and chao is human error, but saying that...

The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.

While the death of the innocent maybe unfair in your eyes, they didnt have to be created in the first place. There's a bigger picture it affects, it also affects other people still alive, would we be so helpful to each other and giving if everything was just handed down on a plate? If there wasn't staving people, pain and suffering, would we be so greatful for what we have in our own lifes. You can either live life to the fullest or drone though in a downer. It shows what most just take for granted day by day.

Angels requested a world to live in, the body is just a shell for the soul. That soul may of lived on before and after the death of the body.
Man was created in the image of God. We where given control over our own world and animals, etc. The devil was even once an angel, who thought he could become a god and was casted out of heaven. We can either be robots following orders or have free will and make mistakes. Even though we make mistakes we can still live and learn from them. God simply asks for our friendship and is willing to forgive, if we take it or ignore it is up to us wheither it be at the gates of heaven or here on earth (you just can't fake the friendship).

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 3 2010, 10:37 PM) *
Lots of people says God takes away, oh no something bad happened and He created it so He must of caused it.

They don't see Him as also creating everything. You are given the gift of life.
Destruction and chao is human error, but saying that...

The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.

While the death of the innocent maybe unfair in your eyes, they didnt have to be created in the first place. There's a bigger picture it affects, it also affects other people still alive, would we be so helpful to each other and giving if everything was just handed down on a plate? If there wasn't staving people, pain and suffering, would we be so greatful. You can either live life to the fullest or drone though in a downer. It shows what most just take for granted day by day.

Yes, other people die and I am happy my life hasn't been randomly selected by God to compensate for his overwhelmingly generous gift of life. Can anybody actually prove that any of what we see isn't evolution? Why go around preaching in the name of God as if it were the only truth, when it is nothing but speculative? If I am going to make an argument, I'd be pretty certain I'm right before telling others to follow me.

I am not convincing you to become atheist or anything of the sort, I am just telling you that you might not want to live your life by rules that *might* be based on fiction and eloquent diction.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jul 3 2010, 09:45 PM

Yeah right, God is great because he gave us free will, yet everything is gods will, just in case we wouldn't know what to do laugh.gif

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Jul 3 2010, 10:45 PM) *
Yeah right, God is great because he gave us free will, yet everything is gods will, just in case we wouldn't know what to do laugh.gif

Reminds me of my parents giving me the choice to stay at home in the summer holidays... YEAH RIGHT xD

And nobody hasn't answered my question... If it is God's will who lives or dies, based on randomly distributed disease, why did God conceive the human immune system?

Posted by: Karl-ss Jul 3 2010, 10:51 PM

QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 3 2010, 06:57 PM) *
I take on faith that makes me believe he is real. It is my faith that makes me realize - well, this is a bad thing that has happened. But God has a purpose. I don't know what is it, but that's because God's ways are higher than mine. People who stray through their faith when things go wrong are weak in the faith - I'm sorry, but that's the truth. I don't mean to sound condesending. That's what God's Word teaches.


Meh the whole purpose thing is exactly why I would reach for a shotgun with a maniacal grin if I where allowed into heaven. It seems that plan is to endlessly torment human beings. Be it mentally or physically. It is too silly for me to believe tho.

Alexi. I like you man. Debating the religious anywhere but youtube takes extreme amounts of patience.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 3 2010, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (Karl-ss @ Jul 3 2010, 11:51 PM) *
Meh the whole purpose thing is exactly why I would reach for a shotgun with a maniacal grin if I where allowed into heaven. It seems that plan is to endlessly torment human beings. Be it mentally or physically. It is too silly for me to believe tho.

Alexi. I like you man. Debating the religious anywhere but youtube takes extreme amounts of patience.

Thanks dude smile.gif "The whole purpose thing is exactly why" during the Renaissance people like Luther and Calvin broke through a less decorational and fanatic faith that is Protestantism. Religion isn't about God, it's about mankind. Knowing that God has plans for you doesn't exactly make you want to get up in the morning and go to work after breakfast (I presume, I am only 16 after all). That's also why people like Michaelangelo (not Batio) painted a painting where Man was practically *touching* God. Human beings may ascend into the Divine at own initiative and effort. The Renaissance was, for religion, the first step into a faith which isn't nonsensical and dogmatic. The final step is for human beings to cease to believe in a superior being, but themselves.

We should have a chat, but seeing as you agree with me to some extent would make the chat self-indulgent as opposed to "stimulating" biggrin.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 01:39 AM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 3 2010, 09:46 PM) *
Reminds me of my parents giving me the choice to stay at home in the summer holidays... YEAH RIGHT xD

And nobody hasn't answered my question... If it is God's will who lives or dies, based on randomly distributed disease, why did God conceive the human immune system?

You assume it is random

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 01:45 AM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 02:39 AM) *
You assume it is random

I assume it is random because God is benevolent... Why would he select certain individuals to feel the wrath of evil, to compensate for all the good in the world. I assume it is random because I do not want to think my grandfather passed away because God wanted him to. He didn't want to die, and I didn't want him to either. This sounds cliché, but if God *does* exist, I would consider him a benevolent being, hence the assumption, I repeat, of random affliction rather than systematic extermination in the name of balance of good and evil.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 01:50 AM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 01:45 AM) *
I assume it is random because God is benevolent... Why would he select certain individuals to feel the wrath of evil, to compensate for all the good in the world. I assume it is random because I do not want to think my grandfather passed away because God wanted him to. He didn't want to die, and I didn't want him to either. This sounds cliché, but if God *does* exist, I would consider him a benevolent being, hence the assumption, I repeat, of random affliction rather than systematic extermination in the name of balance of good and evil.

Because he is God and he can choose to do whatever he wants whenever he wants to
If you are mad because he choose to take loved ones-what you are doing is making your will to be God and make those kind of decisions
violating the first command that you shall not have any Gods before me - this includes your self

Did your grandfather believe in God?

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 01:54 AM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 02:50 AM) *
Because he is God and he can choose to do whatever he wants whenever he wants to
If you are mad because he choose to take loved ones-what you are doing is making your will to be God and make those kind of decisions
violating the first command that you shall not have any Gods before me - this includes your self

I live in Norway. I respect Norwegian law, not Swedish. In this case... God is Swedish. I am Norwegian. His concern is not mine, unless he - or any believers - can convince me of his existence. I am not saying he doesn't exist, I never have. I am saying there is no proof. I do not follow a theory that doesn't have enough proof to be true.

In any case, if I can't worship myself, that means Muslims can't worship Allah, and Jews can't worship Yahvé. Who's right? Do Muslims go to Christian Hell and Christians go to Jewish Hell? Seems awfully complicated, so I'd rather focus on the tangible and understandable, especially my school-work and guitar playing.

Oh, and I was too young to ask my grandfather about his belief. Maybe if God had *purposefully* given him a few more years we would both know.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 02:01 AM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 01:54 AM) *
I live in Norway. I respect Norwegian law, not Swedish. In this case... God is Swedish. I am Norwegian. His concern is not mine, unless he - or any believers - can convince me of his existence. I am not saying he doesn't exist, I never have. I am saying there is no proof. I do not follow a theory that doesn't have enough proof to be true.

In any case, if I can't worship myself, that means Muslims can't worship Allah, and Jews can't worship Yahvé. Who's right? Do Muslims go to Christian Hell and Christians go to Jewish Hell? Seems awfully complicated, so I'd rather focus on the tangible and understandable, especially my school-work and guitar playing.

Oh, and I was too young to ask my grandfather about his belief. Maybe if God had *purposefully* given him a few more years we would both know.

Maybe God wants you to seek him yourself

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 02:01 AM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 03:01 AM) *
Maybe God wants you to seek him yourself

Yet maybe he doesn't.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 02:07 AM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 02:01 AM) *
Yet maybe he doesn't.

let me ask you to do something
If there is a God , could he show himself to somebody without revealing himself to others
Ask him to show himself to you and if he doesn't I will zip my lip

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 02:13 AM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 03:07 AM) *
let me ask you to do something
If there is a God , could he show himself to somebody without revealing himself to others
Ask him to show himself to you and if he doesn't I will zip my lip

Happy Independence Day mate. You may keep your lip unzipped for my concern. smile.gif Oh and yes he could show himself uniquely to one individual. I guess the others are just not *meant* to know of his existence, or so God has planned. I believe those *others* are what we call atheists, which I believe have a place in God's creation as well. After all, our belief - or should I say lack of belief - is also predestined by the Architect.

Posted by: Duncan Jul 4 2010, 03:00 AM

I do not believe in any god, and think that religion does more harm than good. I do however belive people should be "good", morality and all that.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 4 2010, 05:02 AM

I consider myself "GNOSTIC" which is very different from "AGNOSTIC". The Gnostic world view is focused on the attaining of knowledge as the means and method of salvation. Most Gnostics were burned at the stake as heretics hundreds of years ago. The Templars (Knights Templar) were the last big sect of Gnostics. They were wiped out too. Gnostics focus on individual experience and knowledge and don't really buy in to the idea of "church" as such. In the Gnostic view, any time you have two or more believers, where they meet becomes a church and stops being one when they leave.

Basically Gnostics are not fans of traditional Dogma and church heirarchy. Which is partly why they were hunted to extinction. If you have heard of the "Gnostic Gospels" then you know something about the Gnostic Bible. Gnostics accept all of the Apocryphal and banned books that are not in the current King James compilation of the Bible.

It all comes down to you and your personal relationship with what you understand as "God" as far as Gnostics are concerned. Oh, and we don't believe in Hell. smile.gif

Todd

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 12:02 PM

QUOTE (Duncan @ Jul 4 2010, 03:00 AM) *
I do not believe in any god, and think that religion does more harm than good. I do however belive people should be "good", morality and all that.

there are no morals apart from the existence of God
if there is no God we are all products of the universe
if we are all products of the universe , there is no difference between Hitler and mother Teresa
we all become the stuff in the box- just doing whatever the box created us to be ,
man sets morality ,but the problem with that is , if man sets that ,what happens if man gets to the point that he thinks it is moral to commit murder?

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 01:01 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 01:02 PM) *
there are no morals apart from the existence of God
if there is no God we are all products of the universe
if we are all products of the universe , there is no difference between Hitler and mother Teresa
we all become the stuff in the box- just doing whatever the box created us to be ,
man sets morality ,but the problem with that is , if man sets that ,what happens if man gets to the point that he thinks it is moral to commit murder?

What if Christians get to the point where they start killing people because they don't think the Earth is the centre of the solar system? What if Christians get to the point where they start burning people whom they suspect of being witches? What if there were a time known as the Dark Ages where technological and scientific advancement stagnated to a sub-zero level?

Oh wait... Killing in the name of belief is no crime. Those Men of Cloth were but Merry Middle-Men killing for the Greater Good. Somehow, I find it amazing how the modern legislative, executive and judiciary system of, say, France, which is 100% neutral to religion, is doing so well! I mean after hundreds of years without spiritual guidance, murder has not yet turned into an obligation in France...

Atheist murder is purely speculations. Religious murder is historical fact.

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 4 2010, 06:02 AM) *
I consider myself "GNOSTIC" which is very different from "AGNOSTIC". The Gnostic world view is focused on the attaining of knowledge as the means and method of salvation. Most Gnostics were burned at the stake as heretics hundreds of years ago. The Templars (Knights Templar) were the last big sect of Gnostics. They were wiped out too. Gnostics focus on individual experience and knowledge and don't really buy in to the idea of "church" as such. In the Gnostic view, any time you have two or more believers, where they meet becomes a church and stops being one when they leave.

Basically Gnostics are not fans of traditional Dogma and church heirarchy. Which is partly why they were hunted to extinction. If you have heard of the "Gnostic Gospels" then you know something about the Gnostic Bible. Gnostics accept all of the Apocryphal and banned books that are not in the current King James compilation of the Bible.

It all comes down to you and your personal relationship with what you understand as "God" as far as Gnostics are concerned. Oh, and we don't believe in Hell. smile.gif

Todd

You sound like some über mutant Free-Mason ! biggrin.gif I believe it was the general view during the Renaissance that the only way to get closer to God was through personal endeavours in the field of knowledge, should it be music, mathematics, science, literature, art in general or what not. I respect your belief... smile.gif

Posted by: nahassm Jul 4 2010, 01:22 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 3 2010, 04:46 PM) *
Reminds me of my parents giving me the choice to stay at home in the summer holidays... YEAH RIGHT xD

And nobody hasn't answered my question... If it is God's will who lives or dies, based on randomly distributed disease, why did God conceive the human immune system?



Alexiaden, why is "evolution" granted superiority and not scrutinized as much as christianity? Darwin himself recanted his beliefs towards the end of his life, but still the 5000 lbs elephant in the room with evolution is how come there is no inter-species fossil record for the proof of evolution? Where did the "bang" come from in the big bang? If I blow up a pile of bricks will it beciome a school? If I take all the parts of a intricate Swiss watch and detonate an explosion will it explode into a perfectly working watch? Yet evolutionist will tell us that is what happen with us! But I digress... I disagree with the premise of your question, that it is "God's will" that some should die and other's live, the statistics are staggering 100% of folks who live, die eventually smile.gif In the begininning it was God's intention for mankind to enjoy Him and live forever but man decided he was smarter than God and chose to reject that friendship and disobey Him. It is sin that brings death, seperation from God and all the evils we presently see in our world. This is why God gives us warnings about sin, it is so destructive, sin isn't bad because it's forbidden , sin is bad because it's so destructive. Love demands a choice or else love without choice is rape, that's what the whole purporse of the tree in the Garden of Eden was all about God wants folks to choose to love Him, be with Him. We are free to make that choice. God is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ, the real proof of christianity is in the fact that if you go to His grave He ain't there. Was He a nut/lunatic? Was he a liar? or was He God? From your question though you make a good point in that a loving creator made our bodies in such a way as to prolong life and heal itself . I hope this sheds some light on your question.

QUOTE (Duncan @ Jul 3 2010, 10:00 PM) *
I do not believe in any god, and think that religion does more harm than good. I do however belive people should be "good", morality and all that.



Where do we get this "'code of morality"? What is good and what is evil, bad? Who decides? Stalin believed that too, of course he had to 'convince' several million folks of that as well wink.gif but i suppose he was 'good' to his dog if he fed him. What harm has religion done in your opinion?

Posted by: MickeM Jul 4 2010, 01:31 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 02:54 AM) *
In any case, if I can't worship myself, that means Muslims can't worship Allah, and Jews can't worship Yahvé. Who's right? Do Muslims go to Christian Hell and Christians go to Jewish Hell?

Isn't that an interesting point. All over the world, on different continents if people separated from eachother groups of people have developed a belief in a higher being. And the way of practicing ones religion have similarities such as an object before which you pray, hymns, a place to summon worshipers, a God, a sacrifice wether it's money or goats, etc.

In different places by people compljetely separated.

For all I care
- aliens could have landed across the earth and demanded all these things hence the similarities in practice.
- there's infact one or several Gods
- it's just how people evolve, in need of something to belive in which will answer the big questions


On a side note and not adressed to anyone in particular. What I personaly dislike in this kind of discussion is that people too often refer to proof. And especially when asking someone to present profe of a negation, such as prove to me evolution is wrong! That's just not possible and the burdon to present proof always lies on the one presenting his case. I think noone will ever be able to prove neither the big bang nor that there's a God. Adressing ones discussion parners humbly instead of being cocky would in my opinion be the only right thing imho.
By all means, be confident. But stay humble to keep the discussion active and to not scare away discussion partners with another opinion. There's no victory in that. Wouldn't it be great if we solved this matter once and for all, here at GMC biggrin.gif

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (nahassm @ Jul 4 2010, 02:22 PM) *
Alexiaden, why is "evolution" granted superiority and not scrutinized as much as christianity? Darwin himself recanted his beliefs towards the end of his life, but still the 5000 lbs elephant in the room with evolution is how come there is no inter-species fossil record for the proof of evolution? Where did the "bang" come from in the big bang? If I blow up a pile of bricks will it beciome a school? If I take all the parts of a intricate Swiss watch and detonate an explosion will it explode into a perfectly working watch? Yet evolutionist will tell us that is what happen with us! But I digress... I disagree with the premise of your question, that it is "God's will" that some should die and other's live, the statistics are staggering 100% of folks who live, die eventually smile.gif In the begininning it was God's intention for mankind to enjoy Him and live forever but man decided he was smarter than God and chose to reject that friendship and disobey Him. It is sin that brings death, seperation from God and all the evils we presently see in our world. This is why God gives us warnings about sin, it is so destructive, sin isn't bad because it's forbidden , sin is bad because it's so destructive. Love demands a choice or else love without choice is rape, that's what the whole purporse of the tree in the Garden of Eden was all about God wants folks to choose to love Him, be with Him. We are free to make that choice. God is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ, the real proof of christianity is in the fact that if you go to His grave He ain't there. Was He a nut/lunatic? Was he a liar? or was He God? From your question though you make a good point in that a loving creator made our bodies in such a way as to prolong life and heal itself . I hope this sheds some light on your question.




Where do we get this "'code of morality"? What is good and what is evil, bad? Who decides? Stalin believed that too, of course he had to 'convince' several million folks of that as well wink.gif but i suppose he was 'good' to his dog if he fed him. What harm has religion done in your opinion?



I am afraid it took several billion years for the universe to become what it is today. Circular motion and gravity is what conceived the spheres that we know as planets. That is astrophysics. The interspecies fossils you talk about are so ancient (older than the dinosaurs) that preservation is highly unlikely. For more information, read some scientific journals or text-books on the topic. I believe you have one misconception that needs to be cleaned up. Like guitar, nothing comes within weeks, but months or years. If you blow up a pile of bricks, it won't turn into a school. Compared to the Big Bang, there was FAR more energy involved, and the reason why the spheres were conceived (as I already said) was circular motion and gravity. Presence of water and hydrocarbons permitted the evolution of life... You could even say that within 14 billion years, it is a pretty remote chance of obtaining a planet like the Earth, fertile and accomodating to life. Heard of the butterfly's wings that causes a hurricane on the other side of the world? What if something minute had changed in the 14 billion years of the development of the universe? The Earth may have been siituated where either Venus or Mars are orbiting, and the climate would be unbarable, despite God's intention.

"What harm has religion done in your opinion?" Well this question wasn't directed at myself, but I have already answered it in previous posts. Moreover, religion prevents free thinking. I mentioned the Dark Ages. If you haven't read all of my posts, I won't spend more time rewriting my opinions.

In my opinion, religion is a way for mankind to understand the non-understandable. Whether it is true or false, people do not like not knowing, and therefore, you can feed them anything to cover up the holes that science has not yet filled. The Romans used to believe that Vulcanus was the cause of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, 2000 years later we now know that it is merely a matter of sliding between tectonic plates and occasional magma outbursts from the Earth's core due to the immensely high pressure and temperature.

QUOTE (MickeM @ Jul 4 2010, 02:31 PM) *
Isn't that an interesting point. All over the world, on different continents if people separated from eachother groups of people have developed a belief in a higher being. And the way of practicing ones religion have similarities such as an object before which you pray, hymns, a place to summon worshipers, a God, a sacrifice wether it's money or goats, etc.

In different places by people compljetely separated.

For all I care
- aliens could have landed across the earth and demanded all these things hence the similarities in practice.
- there's infact one or several Gods
- it's just how people evolve, in need of something to belive in which will answer the big questions


On a side note and not adressed to anyone in particular. What I personaly dislike in this kind of discussion is that people too often refer to proof. And especially when asking someone to present profe of a negation, such as prove to me evolution is wrong! That's just not possible and the burdon to present proof always lies on the one presenting his case. I think noone will ever be able to prove neither the big bang nor that there's a God. Adressing ones discussion parners humbly instead of being cocky would in my opinion be the only right thing imho.
By all means, be confident. But stay humble to keep the discussion active and to not scare away discussion partners with another opinion. There's no victory in that. Wouldn't it be great if we solved this matter once and for all, here at GMC biggrin.gif


I am merely sharing what I have learned about history and culture. In the school system I'm following (International Baccalaureate) there is a subject called Theory of Knowledge, which promotes critical thinking. I am merely trying to induce some sort of reflection which isn't purely based on somebody else's words, or God's words. Quoting the Bible or merely stating that everything is his will has no value in a religious discussion, which is where negation comes in the picture. If you can't prove Evolution wrong, yet you cannot prove God's existence, maybe you shouldn't *know* for a fact that God exists.

History shows that religion has done nothing constructive to the human mind. If we accept that God has predestined our destiny, and that anything we do won't affect the future, then we can just give up practising guitar, going to school, working, driving society to a maximum etc. What use is there if everything is already preconceived? This is purely my opinion, but I'd prefer having my say in my own future.

Let's say I have two choices: medicine studies or professional musicians. I pick the way of the doctor, and you will say "God intended for it to happen", yet if I become a professional musician you might say "Just as God foresaw". You call me cocky, but what do you call somebody who believes they are superior merely because they follow the way of a superior being?

Posted by: MickeM Jul 4 2010, 02:16 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 03:11 PM) *
You call me cocky

Like I said, it wasn't directed to anyone in particular but just a general reminder as a sum of the entire discussion climate. Or maybe it was Gods way to make you think it was about you wink.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 02:25 PM

What if Christians get to the point where they start killing people because they don't think the Earth is the centre of the solar system? What if Christians get to the point where they start burning people whom they suspect of being witches? What if there were a time known as the Dark Ages where technological and scientific advancement stagnated to a sub-zero level?

Sure this is fact
are you going to hold people acountable for there ancestors

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 02:28 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 03:25 PM) *
What if Christians get to the point where they start killing people because they don't think the Earth is the centre of the solar system? What if Christians get to the point where they start burning people whom they suspect of being witches? What if there were a time known as the Dark Ages where technological and scientific advancement stagnated to a sub-zero level?

Sure this is fact
are you going to hold people acountable for there ancestors

For proof, consult history. There is no proof in the future. That's just speculation. You fire an argument about the future of Atheism, I retort with the past of Christianity... People ask what harm Christianity has ever done, I reply. No offence intended, this is history, not my own opinion.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 02:31 PM

if there is a God could he make a a universe with a predestined plan yet full of beings that have a free will

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 02:28 PM) *
For proof, consult history. There is no proof in the future. That's just speculation. You fire an argument about the future of Atheism, I retort with the past of Christianity... People ask what harm Christianity has ever done, I reply. No offence intended, this is history, not my own opinion.

I agree with history that this happened
but will you hold the present accountable for the past

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 02:37 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 03:31 PM) *
if there is a God could he make a a universe with a predestined plan yet full of beings that have a free will


I agree with history that this happened
but will you hold the present accountable for the past

Then I guess people should stop mentioning Stalin... wink.gif

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 4 2010, 03:16 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Then I guess people should stop mentioning Stalin... wink.gif

no - without the past we loose ourselves
and that i have not been offended by anything said
and i like having questions that i need to think or rethink the way i believe
if i stop doing that
kill me laugh.gif

got to go to church ------Peace

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 03:51 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 04:16 PM) *
no - without the past we loose ourselves
and that i have not been offended by anything said
and i like having questions that i need to think or rethink the way i believe
if i stop doing that
kill me laugh.gif

got to go to church ------Peace

Here's a Mind-Boggler. Going to Church on Independence Day, doesn't this mean you're still Dependent ? tongue.gif I mean yes yes British and French colonies etc. but still ^^

Posted by: Staffy Jul 4 2010, 04:15 PM

From a science point of view, recently discovered facts in the topic "intelligent design" (a theory about the human DNA) may prove Darwins theories false and actually divided scientists in two camps. Since the propellers in the human DNA is so extremely complicated, there is no chance that they could have evolved by coincidence - which in turn means that somebody designed the planet, aka. some kind of "God". I recently saw a tv-program bout this, and its a quite stunning piece of scientology. But the way from here to what we consider is God and what the bible says, is not the same subject imo. One must bear in mind that the bible is written by human beeings at different points in time, and that their belief (as well as possible misunderstandings) strongly affects the words in the bible. I think that people who reads the bible literally makes a big mistake, and that a possible God is something completely different than the one in the bible. Also we must bear in mind that the bible is "censored" by the Vatikan since the very beginning and texts that shall belong there from the start has been taken away.

//Staffay

EDIT: Heres a link to some info bout intelligent design: http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_26.htm

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 04:31 PM

QUOTE (Staffy @ Jul 4 2010, 05:15 PM) *
From a science point of view, recently discovered facts in the topic "intelligent design" (a theory about the human DNA) may prove Darwins theories false and actually divided scientists in two camps. Since the propellers in the human DNA is so extremely complicated, there is no chance that they could have evolved by coincidence - which in turn means that somebody designed the planet, aka. some kind of "God". I recently saw a tv-program bout this, and its a quite stunning piece of scientology. But the way from here to what we consider is God and what the bible says, is not the same subject imo. One must bear in mind that the bible is written by human beeings at different points in time, and that their belief (as well as possible misunderstandings) strongly affects the words in the bible. I think that people who reads the bible literally makes a big mistake, and that a possible God is something completely different than the one in the bible. Also we must bear in mind that the bible is "censored" by the Vatikan since the very beginning and texts that shall belong there from the start has been taken away.

//Staffay

EDIT: Heres a link to some info bout intelligent design: http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_26.htm

Interesting smile.gif I don't fully agree with your point on evolution though. Species evolve in two different ways.

1. Survival of the fittest
This doesn't necessarily mean the animal that eats the others, it means whatever animal is adapted to the surroundings in the most biologically viable fashion. Logically, if an animal doesn't survive the heat, it will die, and the animal who does will live on, procreating and propagating its genes into the future. The hedgehogs we see today are basically the grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-children of some other hedgehog which was very much similar.

HOWEVER, this would imply that we as humans have existed since the beginning of time, which is not the case.

2. Genetic mutation and biological memory
As the climate and environment changes, so does genetic information. If a Norwegian moved to Brazil in 1550 (let's ignore socio-cultural context) then in 500 years, his children would actually be darker skinned, not because of the Sun-tan, but because over a long period of time, the organism's DNA can change slightly, based on the surroundings. In other words, it's very probable that species can change merely as a way of keeping in balance with nature, because that is what evolution is: a regular change for balance.

What we see today on Earth is animals that have adapted over millions of years, and are perfectly shaped to live in symbiosis with other species. In a similar way, we are all 1 sperm cell out of millions, and yes, we survived the race up the fallopian tube because, as Darwin states, we are the fittest.

NOW the true issue that we should be discussing, as opposed to the existence of God:
Given that the world has changed drastically by human hands, including traffic, roads, pollution etc. Hedgehogs (I just love them, they are so cute biggrin.gif) that don't run fast enough, get hit by a car and die. In Norway, it is an unfortunate, but common sight. This means that in a few decades we're going to be left with Hedgehogs that run around at 30 km/h ! Oh my Darwin I can't wait !!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Staffy Jul 4 2010, 04:52 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 05:31 PM) *
Interesting smile.gif I don't fully agree with your point on evolution though. Species evolve in two different ways.

1. Survival of the fittest
This doesn't necessarily the animal that eats the others, it means whatever animal is adapted to the surroundings in the most biologically viable fashion. Logically, if an animal doesn't survive the heat, it will die, and the animal who does will live on, procreating and propagating its genes into the future. The hedgehogs we see today are basically the grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-children of some other hedgehog which was very much similar.

HOWEVER, this would imply that we as humans have existed since the beginning of time, which is not the case.

2. Genetic mutation and biological memory
As the climate and environment changes, so does genetic information. If a Norwegian moved to Brazil in 1550 (let's ignore socio-cultural context) then in 500 years, his children would actually be darker skinned, not because of the Sun-tan, but because over a long period of time, the organism's DNA can change slightly, based on the surroundings. In other words, it's very probable that species can change merely as a way of keeping in balance with nature, because that is what evolution is: a regular change for balance.

What we see today on Earth is animals that have adapted over millions of years, and are perfectly shaped to live in symbiosis with other species. In a similar way, we are all 1 sperm cell out of millions, and yes, we survived the race up the fallopian tube because, as Darwin states, we are the fittest.

NOW the true issue that we should be discussing, as opposed to the existence of God:
Given that the world has changed drastically by human hands, including traffic, roads, pollution etc. Hedgehogs (I just love them, they are so cute biggrin.gif) that don't run fast enough, get hit by a car and die. In Norway, it is an unfortunate, but common sight. This means that in a few decades we're going to be left with Hedgehogs that run around at 30 km/h ! Oh my Darwin I can't wait !!! biggrin.gif



Hmm, I can see Your point here - but what the scientists did was to emulate the evolution of just one cell with just one block of DNA and ran it through some monster NASA-computers. And what stands out was that the human DNA cannot be modelled out of just one cell, its simply just impossible - hence the theory "Intelligent Design". Other species, flowers etc. can be modelled however.

Now to the main question: Doesn't Your Norwegian Hedgehogs run faster than 30 kilometers/hour? Our Swedish one's have run for 50 km/hour the past 20 years.... On the other hand, Norway haven't joined the European Union yet either! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

//Staffay

Posted by: tonyparnham Jul 4 2010, 04:53 PM

I'm 65yrs old and was brought up in an atmosphere of Roman Catholicism by Jesuit priests. I now believe the Bible was just Desert Scriblings and nothing else here's why;
When God by an "Act of Will" supposedly created the Universe he made all the rules and parameters so whatever happens he already knew it was going to happen, he set the foundations of the Universe and saw the whole thing so he knew exactly what you were going to do from the time you were born to the time you were going to die. He then CONDEMS YOU FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO DO AND THEN HAS HIS SUPPOSED OWN SON TORTURED AND MURDERED TO MAKE UP FOR IT IN ORDER THAT HE CAN FORGIVE YOU.
Just a footnote here but christians consider Jesus (who was really god himself) SACRIFICED FOR OUR SINS. WHAT SACRIFICE IS THERE IN DYING THEN RISING FROM THE DEAD AND GETTING TO BE GOD AGAIN? Illogical.
Its the most illogical bizarre idea ever and to call him Holy, All Loving, forgiving and Moral is stupidity at it's height. Religious people tend to call this Fatherly Love.
The Old Testament is full of this kind of thing with god trying to convince us of his existance........ choosing the one method that makes it look as though he's not there deciding to whisper in primitive desert peoples ear whilst intentionally making himself OBSCURE in order that they could write a book that no one really understands requiring leaps of FAITH which are not supported by reason or logic and which only reward the gullible.
Tony

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 4 2010, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (tonyparnham @ Jul 4 2010, 05:53 PM) *
I'm 65yrs old and was brought up in an atmosphere of Roman Catholicism by Jesuit priests. I now believe the Bible was just Desert Scriblings and nothing else here's why;
When God by an "Act of Will" supposedly created the Universe he made all the rules and parameters so whatever happens he already knew it was going to happen, he set the foundations of the Universe and saw the whole thing so he knew exactly what you were going to do from the time you were born to the time you were going to die. He then CONDEMS YOU FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO DO AND THEN HAS HIS SUPPOSED OWN SON TORTURED AND MURDERED TO MAKE UP FOR IT IN ORDER THAT HE CAN FORGIVE YOU.
Just a footnote here but christians consider Jesus (who was really god himself) SACRIFICED FOR OUR SINS. WHAT SACRIFICE IS THERE IN DYING THEN RISING FROM THE DEAD AND GETTING TO BE GOD AGAIN? Illogical.
Its the most illogical bizarre idea ever and to call him Holy, All Loving, forgiving and Moral is stupidity at it's height. Religious people tend to call this Fatherly Love.
The Old Testament is full of this kind of thing with god trying to convince us of his existance........ choosing the one method that makes it look as though he's not there deciding to whisper in primitive desert peoples ear whilst intentionally making himself OBSCURE in order that they could write a book that no one really understands requiring leaps of FAITH which are not supported by reason or logic and which only reward the gullible.
Tony

I find it fascinating how being raised by extreme parents either leads you to become just like them, or the polar opposite. You are, in my opinion, logically 100% right in what you say. smile.gif

QUOTE (Staffy @ Jul 4 2010, 05:52 PM) *
Now to the main question: Doesn't Your Norwegian Hedgehogs run faster than 30 kilometers/hour? Our Swedish one's have run for 50 km/hour the past 20 years.... On the other hand, Norway haven't joined the European Union yet either! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

//Staffay

Hahahahahaha biggrin.gif And I thought Norwegians were just selfish nationalists and patriots... xD OF COURSE it's because of the Hedgehogs. Norway just can't compete biggrin.gif

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 5 2010, 01:58 AM

QUOTE
Jesus (who was really god himself) SACRIFICED FOR OUR SINS. WHAT SACRIFICE IS THERE IN DYING THEN RISING FROM THE DEAD AND GETTING TO BE GOD AGAIN? Illogical.


First of all it's God, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

The Son (Jesus) lived on earth and lived the same life as us. It's the suffering, pain and death for our sins he went through for us which was the sacrifice. Not the dead body itself. Jesus is the bridge between us and God.

If anyone dies, our soul still stays and lives on for ever (as there is no such thing as time). Therefore you could says its logical Jesus would live on.

We as humans will all sin at least once in our life. If we are unable to fulfill the Law, then we will be punished by it. But, since God desires us to be saved, the Law must be satisfied.

Since we cannot keep the Law and it must be satisfied, then the only one capable of keeping the Law must keep the Law: God. Jesus is God in flesh. Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins in His body on the cross, thus fulfilling the Law. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jul 5 2010, 03:00 AM

I do not believe in God, it's too abstract thing for me. It's not that I don't want to, I simply cannot imagine what that is. God, or Supreme Being can be something non-human too, on higher ladder, but that doesn't mean it is God, it's just Supreme Being. God is something ultimate.. like Universe is ultimate. How can we understand Universe and God, we don't even know what is on a planet next to us..

Posted by: fkalich Jul 5 2010, 05:55 AM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 4 2010, 08:11 AM) *
I am afraid it took several billion years for the universe to become what it is today. Circular motion and gravity is what conceived the spheres that we know as planets. That is astrophysics. The interspecies fossils you talk about are so ancient (older than the dinosaurs) that preservation is highly unlikely. For more information, read some scientific journals or text-books on the topic. I believe you have one misconception that needs to be cleaned up. Like guitar, nothing comes within weeks, but months or years. If you blow up a pile of bricks, it won't turn into a school. Compared to the Big Bang, there was FAR more energy involved, and the reason why the spheres were conceived (as I already said) was circular motion and gravity. Presence of water and hydrocarbons permitted the evolution of life... You could even say that within 14 billion years, it is a pretty remote chance of obtaining a planet like the Earth, fertile and accomodating to life. Heard of the butterfly's wings that causes a hurricane on the other side of the world? What if something minute had changed in the 14 billion years of the development of the universe? The Earth may have been siituated where either Venus or Mars are orbiting, and the climate would be unbarable, despite God's intention.
......


As I read you, I can see that you are reasonably well read, in a scholarly sense. I can tell the difference. But others say things that make no sense at all, any serious scholar or researcher, one with a reputation in Academic circles, would just roll there eyes at.

Posted by: fkalich Jul 5 2010, 07:27 AM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 08:25 AM) *
What if Christians get to the point where they start killing people because they don't think the Earth is the centre of the solar system? What if Christians get to the point where they start burning people whom they suspect of being witches? What if there were a time known as the Dark Ages where technological and scientific advancement stagnated to a sub-zero level?

Sure this is fact
are you going to hold people acountable for there ancestors


You have some real misconceptions about the church. Now this comes from a person who considers all religions of the book primitive superstition at root. But I have read a great deal of history, scholarly history, and you don't understand it at all, that is obvious to me.

The issue of Galileo was a complicated one. You simply have to understand that you had political institutions in those early days, the Church being one of them. Just as today, those who threaten the stability of the existing political institutions are dealt with, the same happened back then. I can't explain it all. I will just say that Galileo was not killed, he lived a life of luxury under house arrest, and could not further publish. He as a darling of the Church in earlier days, but he really just pushed too far, made too many enemies. Probably his biggest mistake was publishing in a language that the public could read, rather than in Latin. They did not like political instability back then any more than people do today. The position of the church was "sure, publish (in Latin), and say it is your theory, we will consider it, and if we are convinced, we will revisit our interpretation of scripture". But Galileo just decided to push his luck, and make fools out of them publicly. You did not do that in the middle ages in Europe with the ruling political institution, church or secular. The only difference is that had he made a fool of a prince, he probably would have lost his head.

You are showing your historical limitations on the burning of witches issue. How many were burned in Europe? 100,000? Nobody knows for sure. How many were burned by the Church (inquisition). ZERO! All were burned at the orders of secular courts If you were to be tried in those days, your only hope was that you saw the Inquisition, not the secular court. Then you had some hope. Yes if you were stubborn with the church, and did not suck up to them some (as people do today in court with a Judge) you might be turned over to the secular court. But it was always the civil authorities who would burn you. To understand old times, you have to put yourself in the context. Today people (even some teachers) transport modern values to those times, and judge them in that fashion. Silly, but it does not stop them.

Much of the misinformation about the history of the Catholic Church comes from biased propaganda from Northern Europe at the time, particularly the English. You want to hear about horrors, read about the English, and their treatment of the Irish. Hard to find a case of such horrible institutionalized genocide until the time of Hitler in man's history. The Church has many things in it's history not to be proud of. But then again, all in all, I would not call the Church the most horrendous of the political institutions of the middle ages, quite the opposite. And they are blamed for things in a way that is not always fair. It was pretty hard not to be corrupt in the 150 years that the Viking invastions had destabilized all political institutions. But they did reform after that. The Church did not sack Constantinople. That was against the explicit marching orders that the Pope had given them (and was in fact done because the Ruler of the East had broken a bargain with them had not paid them from services rendered.) Again, I am not a "believer" certainly not a Catholic, but I have read a great deal in my life. Just about all mainstream history (all on TV) that the general public sucks in it just nonsense, really. The things 95% of people believe concerning history are SO off the mark, not even close to a true understanding.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jul 5 2010, 08:21 AM

Alexiaden93
"You sound like some über mutant Free-Mason ! biggrin.gif I believe it was the general view during the Renaissance that the only way to get closer to God was through personal endeavours in the field of knowledge, should it be music, mathematics, science, literature, art in general or what not. I respect your belief... smile.gif"


Actually that's very perceptive! The Gnostics fled under threat of extermination from the Pope and their teachings were eventually absorbed in to organizations such as the Free Masons among others. Good catch!

Posted by: tonyparnham Jul 5 2010, 09:23 AM

All the main religions catagorically say that if you don't believe in God or accept Jesus you get to be tortured forever/hell. Over 90% of people in the world are decent nice law abiding citizens who live a good life, just because a large amount of them don't believe in God because God has not given sufficient evidence, do they DESERVE to be tortured forever. Of course not. I have a daughter, if she fell out with me and never spoke to me again would I want to send her to the basement to lock her there forever just because she blanks me. Of course not I would always forgive her because I get my morals from me and I'm only human. Where does God get his morals from, in Christianity for example just because Eve disobeyed him God punished her and all generations thereafter. It's like my daughter taking my favourite chocolate out of the fridge disobeying my instructions so I spank her day after day, but not only that I also spank my two grandsons for what their mother did.
How silly is that. I then decide to have a son a couple of years later to put things right and have him killed so I can forgive my daughter. It's crazy.
I will not be influenced by these so called holy books written by men about a god no one has EVER seen. I get my morals from me I know whats right and whats wrong and I'm very comfortable with that.
Regards Tony

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 5 2010, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 5 2010, 06:55 AM) *
As I read you, I can see that you are reasonably well read, in a scholarly sense. I can tell the difference. But others say things that make no sense at all, any serious scholar or researcher, one with a reputation in Academic circles, would just roll there eyes at.

It could be said that logic comes from reading, but logic is not limited only to those who are interested in history and culture. I know I may say things that are shocking or can even seem arrogant to others who haven't had the same scholarly interests as myself, but essentially discussion is about sharing ideas, and I am sure everyone participating in this thread, including myself, will have learned something at the end of the day. That's why I like discussion, as long as they don't fall into blind dogma and personal attacks.

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 5 2010, 09:21 AM) *
Alexiaden93
"You sound like some über mutant Free-Mason ! biggrin.gif I believe it was the general view during the Renaissance that the only way to get closer to God was through personal endeavours in the field of knowledge, should it be music, mathematics, science, literature, art in general or what not. I respect your belief... smile.gif"


Actually that's very perceptive! The Gnostics fled under threat of extermination from the Pope and their teachings were eventually absorbed in to organizations such as the Free Masons among others. Good catch!

Having studied history in the French system, we did lightly brush over the Free Masons. These kinds of organisations fascinate me. They have their own system, secrecy is preserved by awesome symbols (eye in the pyramid) which have even been adapted in album artwork by bands such as Iron Maiden for their beauty. Also in the book Angels & Demons by Dan Brown (the sequel of The da Vinci Code) there is an organisation called the Illuminati which is also quite captivating despite their hostile attitude.

Posted by: Grmo Jul 5 2010, 06:18 PM

Hey everyone, I've got a suggestion: no one knows the truth. No matter how much you think you know it, you don't. All you can do is speculate, and hopefully realize that no belief or theory currently can provide all the explanations without arbitrary assumptions. So there is really no point in debating this.

I picked "Other", because I don't know, and contrary to the definition of agnosticism (which is that the knowledge is unattainable), I think that it is possible to know. However, I know that trying to accept anything as absolute truth is illogical. If it's just your belief, and you've got nothing to back it up with, then you shouldn't be sharing it, because it's way too easy for your argument to be torn apart, because of the absence of evidence on the side of creationism, and lack of evidence on the side of evolution (there is evidence (like the fossil record), but not enough to solidify it as what really happened). If you can actually back it up with evidence, then sure, but you will reach a dead end eventually, because you can't prove anything for certain.

What I'm saying is this: keep an open mind. We don't know, and that is indisputable. No ideas we have currently can prove how we got here, so let science continue to progress, and perhaps someday, we will know. In the mean time, let's just do what we're here to do: to learn and play guitar, because I'd much rather perfect my sweeping technique than worry with futility about why I'm here to do so.

Posted by: Karl-ss Jul 5 2010, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 4 2010, 02:50 AM) *
Because he is God and he can choose to do whatever he wants whenever he wants to
If you are mad because he choose to take loved ones-what you are doing is making your will to be God and make those kind of decisions
violating the first command that you shall not have any Gods before me - this includes your self

Did your grandfather believe in God?


You remind me of a individual named Venomfangx...

Posted by: tonyparnham Jul 5 2010, 08:49 PM

Hi GRMO,
I agree with what you say in some parts except for God can do what he wants, if he's does its never very good especially when he zapped everybody in the world except Noah's family and a every species on the planet. Where's my metronome?
Regards Tony

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 5 2010, 08:59 PM

QUOTE
All the main religions catagorically say that if you don't believe in God or accept Jesus you get to be tortured forever/hell. Over 90% of people in the world are decent nice law abiding citizens who live a good life, just because a large amount of them don't believe in God because God has not given sufficient evidence, do they DESERVE to be tortured forever. Of course not. I have a daughter, if she fell out with me and never spoke to me again would I want to send her to the basement to lock her there forever just because she blanks me. Of course not I would always forgive her because I get my morals from me and I'm only human. Where does God get his morals from, in Christianity for example just because Eve disobeyed him God punished her and all generations thereafter. It's like my daughter taking my favourite chocolate out of the fridge disobeying my instructions so I spank her day after day, but not only that I also spank my two grandsons for what their mother did.
How silly is that. I then decide to have a son a couple of years later to put things right and have him killed so I can forgive my daughter. It's crazy.
I will not be influenced by these so called holy books written by men about a god no one has EVER seen. I get my morals from me I know whats right and whats wrong and I'm very comfortable with that.
Regards Tony


You are thinking backwards about this, just like God you forgive your child and am willing to take him/her back no matter what happened, you would even put your own life on the line for them if necessary. It's the child which has to accept it and come back or leave. Out of anger, sometimes they are lost for a while, sometimes forever. We never damn our own children, but if you shelter them too much they end up not being able to look after themselves and excepting everything handed to them (no one likes a snot nosed kid) so it's a live and learn by mistakes. You teach them along the way and guild them, but in the end it's up to them if they follow. No matter how many times I was told by my parents as a kid the stove is hot, don't touch, I still went ahead and touched to find out for myself. Lesson learnt, won't do that again! As a kid, we might not understand our parents but they know better so we follow and trust them.


QUOTE
I agree with what you say in some parts except for God can do what he wants, if he's does its never very good especially when he zapped everybody in the world except Noah's family and a every species on the planet. Where's my metronome?


It was a flood, the ark was wood (they have even found what they think is remains of that ark, but never confirmed), plants can survive underwater, but only regrow if on land. The flood dried up and they therefore grew again. Maybe there wasn't so many species but then, and evolution does play a part in the development of animals and planet life. We already know about cross breeding animals or plants. Yet humans is a different story.


The real funny thing, is even though I'm a Christian, I still rip things apart to learn the truth. Never simply assume something as fact. You do need a bit of faith as I don't think we'll ever understand 100%, but breaking down small areas and seeing both sides does help.

I don't believe in the Apollo 11 moon landing with 1000s of anomalies which don't add up, and there was also a good reason to fake it.

I don't believe in aliens or UFOs, it's a fact america made UFOs like the stealth helicopter and FDO. Hundreds of experimental coverups.

I do believe in Terminator 2, it was based on facts and spynet is a real company still developing today and has government funding to build automatic robots, they have already created the pilot-less plane and tanks, they are developing a robotic arm for medical treatment. Yes, we are dumb enough to allow technology take over and destroy us all! Just take a look at Microsoft, the next Windows OS is said to be cloud computing (will run just like Skynet network did) and be released in 2012.

Religon is the biggest double sided one of them all. Yet I've pulled it apart and still makes more sense to me being a Christian as it is in everything we do and learn.

We could discuss this for ages.

I also believe never to force people into something, I hate religons or theories being forced upon you. People can get scared by what they don't understand. People hate what is forced on them and it gets rejected anyway, right? God never actually forced it on you, only showed a way.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jul 5 2010, 09:03 PM

Actually if a person has good tools, he can see the marks of human landing on the moon. I love this fact, as it just crushes some "unbelievers", and I can laugh at their ignorance:P

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 5 2010, 09:54 PM

QUOTE
Actually if a person has good tools, he can see the marks of human landing on the moon. I love this fact, as it just crushes some "unbelievers", and I can laugh at their ignorance:P


Actually we are still waiting for that... we have not seen the flag (blown away with no air?) and we can't see the footprint. All we have actually see is the crater (which could of been there in the first place) and a dot... If the hubble telescope is powerful enough to see millions of miles away why do we not have a telescope powerful enough to see the footprints and flag on the moon? Telescopes mostly gather light, to make dark things visible, finding the footprint will be impossible with today's technology.

There are crosshairs in all the moon landing images which have be doctored, some missing as if overlapped.

The footprint is in the wrong location.

The Lander weighed 17 tons and sat on top of the sand making no impression but directly next to it footprints can be seen in the sand. There goes the footprint idea all together?

No blast crater or any sign of dust scatter in the images, oops there goes the proof of the telescope even.

The flag doesn't move a millimeter on the moon when saluting the flag. Even without air, etc, and wire holding it across, it stays the same shape crushed in the corner (for thirty minutes of video).

The moon doesn't spin, it is below freezing on one side and too hot on the other and have radiation. Yes, they did have radiation poison, plus one to the facts.

We didn't have the technology back then to make it all the way there, let along document it. Yet there was no more than two-second delay in two-way communications at a distance of a 400,000 km (250,000 miles). There may also be some documentary films where the delay has been edited out?

There was a cold war with the russians, Americans where afraid of nuclear satellites being sent into outta space. They had a space race and had to be the first. If you look into this history you can see why they would fake it. They had also had to explain wasting a lot of tax payers money.

The American Government is well known for their cover stories...

They did make it into earth orbit, but didn't have enough force/fuel to slingshot themselves to the moon, let along come all the way back as planned. So they stayed in orbit, returned and faked the rest at Area 51 where there is satellite images which look like the pretty much like the moon landing. Exposed to radiation while in orbit?

The only fact left is the moon rock sample, which could of been pressurized rock from earth. The rocks brought back from the Moon are identical to rocks collected by scientific expeditions to Antarctica.

This all just amuses me, if you look at something hard enough, you can proof its real or fake in your own mind but everyone else has their own beliefs. No matter the facts, there will always be a counter. Same deal with religion and evolution, etc.

Posted by: Rik Veldhuizen Jul 5 2010, 10:07 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 09:59 PM) *
You are thinking backwards about this, just like God you forgive your child and am willing to take him/her back no matter what happened, you would never put your own life on the line for them if necessary.


Not sure I understand what you're saying here... If you are saying that a parent would never put their own life on the line for their kids, you're very mistaken... But if you mean they would give up their own life for their kids, I couldn't agree more smile.gif

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 5 2010, 10:17 PM

QUOTE
But if you mean they would give up their own life for their kids, I couldn't agree more smile.gif


That is would I mean. I typoed.

We are created in the image of God, we could be called his children. He is willing just like a father or mother to give his own life to protect their kids. We as children most of the time however take it all for granted and ignore, rebel, and even think our parents hate us sometimes. That's why there is a Love/Hate relationship. We don't always get our own way, and we don't get what we want all the time, have to work for it so we learn and develop. Just the same as a loving parent does to better the son/daughter.

Even if it is all just made up (thousands of years), it makes sense in the way we live our lifes to follow it and take the good things from it.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 5 2010, 10:20 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 11:17 PM) *
That is would I mean. I typoed.

We are created in the image of God, we could be called his children. He is willing just like a father or mother to give his own life to protect their kids. We as children most of the time however take it all for granted and ignore, rebel, and even think our parents hate us sometimes. That's why there is a Love/Hate relationship. We don't always get our own way, and we don't get what we want all the time, have to work for it. Just the same as a loving parent does to better the son/daughter.

Even if it is all fake, it makes sense in the way we live our lifes to follow it.

Instead of saying what religion is, why doesn't someone say WHY religion is? mellow.gif

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 5 2010, 10:32 PM

WHY religion?

I could ask you, why the 14 pages of rabbling on about it?
Everyone need something to believe, it's human nature to find out things.

I like to think God is a parent figure...

Parents don't like us going bad. Since we sin anyway, there's no way around it except to forgive and they end up taking the wrap for it and paying for the damages. However that doesn't mean your out of the woods, you get grounded boy until you say your sorry!

So does your parent hate you because they grounding you? So it might seem in your eyes at the time? But you still learn from it.

Life is all about learning!
It might be slightly messed up, but the basic idea of most Religions teaches this and life lessons. It also set morals down and to think of others and help in whatever way we can. It's when people being to use it in their advantage to control others it goes all wrong.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 5 2010, 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 11:32 PM) *
WHY religion?

I could ask you, why the 14 pages of rabbling on about it?
Everyone need something to believe, it's human nature to find out things.

I like to think God is a parent figure...

Parents don't like us going bad. Since we sin anyway, there's no way around it except to forgive and they end up taking the wrap for it and paying for the damages. However that doesn't mean your out of the woods, you get grounded boy until you say your sorry!

So does your parent hate you because they grounding you? So it might seem in your eyes at the time? But you still learn from it.

Life is all about learning!

Now when you say "Life is all about learning!" I somehow get the word "Science" in my head...

However: I have two parents. Why would I need another one? Isn't 18 years of parental guidance enough to learn that thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not have thy way with thy neighbour's wife? I mean after being a child, and having parents (no matter if you're an orphan, atheist or christian) you are one day going to be a parent yourself. And most people, as I said, know what it means to be good. We don't need God for that. We have a Constitution, and if not, another legislation that prevents us from doing bad.

If God's wrath prevents us from doing bad things, why hasn't Osama bin Laden been punished? Why did it take many million deaths before Hitler stopped? It seems like God's wrath is very terrifying, but according to historical facts, it's almost like an empty threat.

Please elaborate your "parent" idea.


AFTERTHOUGHT
And oh, let's not forget the Dark Ages which brought "Life is all about learning!" to a sudden halt, thanks to religion, which somehow enhances learning... I am confused.

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 5 2010, 10:56 PM

QUOTE
Isn't 18 years of parental guidance enough to learn that thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not have thy way with thy neighbour's wife?


They are all based from Christain Religion. You are being taught from a religion, done that make it a bad thing? Human made their own laws around them, which weaken it, but again based from the religion.

QUOTE
I mean after being a child, and having parents (no matter if you're an orphan, atheist or christian) you are one day going to be a parent yourself.


God gave you a world and animals, plants, etc to look after, even as a child you could be called a parent (as a parent looks after things). Even when grown up as an actual parent with kids, you still have your own parent don't ya?

QUOTE
If God's wrath prevents us from doing bad things, why hasn't Osama bin Laden been punished? Why did it take many million deaths before Hitler stopped? It seems like God's wrath is very terrifying, but according to historical facts, it's almost like an empty threat.


You have free-will to do what you want. Your parents try to prevent you doing bad things right? Yet you still do them. Sometimes you have to find out the hard way.

If Osama bin Laden was punished, then so could George Bush and the American people for provoking it, New Zealand and other countries for helping out. Anyone in a war, would be wiped out. Anyone stealing, lieing, cheating, murdering, well that's everyone, would be wiped...

Oh wait that already happen in the past with the flood. Not so much an empty threat, but a last option! Man created war, same deal with the dark ages and medieval times. I'm sure you have fight your bro or sisters in the past, does that mean your parents will kill you? Now what happens if you killed him/her, your parents might turn you over even though they still love you deeply? Your parents don't kill you but the electric chair will.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 5 2010, 11:11 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 5 2010, 11:56 PM) *
They are all based from Christain Religion. You are being taught from a religion, done that make it a bad thing? Human made their own laws around them, which weaken it, but again based from the religion.



God gave you a world and animals, plants, etc to look after, even as a child you could be called a parent (as a parent looks after things). Even when grown up as an actual parent with kids, you still have your own parent don't ya?



You have free-will to do what you want. Your parents try to prevent you doing bad things right? Yet you still do them. Sometimes you have to find out the hard way.

If Osama bin Laden was punished, then so could George Bush and the American people for provoking it, New Zealand and other countries for helping out. Anyone in a war, would be wiped out. Anyone stealing, lieing, cheating, murdering, well that's everyone, would be wiped...

Oh wait that already happen in the past with the flood. Not so much an empty threat, but a last option! Man created war, same deal with the dark ages and medieval times. I'm sure you have fight your bro or sisters in the past, does that mean your parents will kill you? Now what happens if you killed him/her, your parents might turn you over even though they still love you deeply? Your parents don't kill you but the electric chair will.

Yes laws are based on religion, because the fact that Zeus would zap you with lightning made people think that there was a consequence for committing crime. Now that we have a proper judiciary system, a Constitution in many countries, why do we need God? Man can do fine on his own, and the flood (that apparently wiped out the entire Terrestrial population) is something I would like proved...

And get your history right. The Dark Ages are a result of religion. Oh and about the electric chair... Not everybody in the world lives in Texas.

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 5 2010, 11:36 PM

As I said before:

QUOTE
I also believe never to force people into something, I hate religons or theories being forced upon you. People can get scared by what they don't understand. People hate what is forced on them and it gets rejected anyway, right? God never actually forced it on you, only showed a way.


People just take it too far! It's not the religion itself, but when man controls the religion into getting control when it becomes a bad thing. I realise religion can turn quite bloody in the hands of some.

I'll flick the next question back at you, why do you need a parent? When you can scrape by and live/suvive by yourself? Why do you need friendship, you can still live as a loner all your life? It's a sad, worthless life...

Why are there laws, when you already know right from wrong? Why do you get punished for crime? Why do you get death (or life sentence) for some crimes, but able to get prison/fined/etc and turn your life around for others? Why not all just die, you might just end up doing the same crime again!


As for the flood, explorers are "99.9 percent" sure they've found Noah's ark in Turkey, beneath snow and volcanic debris on Mount Ararat. However, i don't assume it's actual fact, it could be faked.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/


Posted by: tonyparnham Jul 6 2010, 10:14 AM

Hi Azzaboi,
I think you are missing my point here so here's a question;
I don't believe in God like a number of others don't from their response, so I am an aethiest OK, according to your religion what happens to my soul presuming I am still an aethiest when I die?
Tony

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 6 2010, 10:37 AM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 12:36 AM) *
As I said before:


People just take it too far! It's not the religion itself, but when man controls the religion into getting control when it becomes a bad thing. I realise religion can turn quite bloody in the hands of some.

I'll flick the next question back at you, why do you need a parent? When you can scrape by and live/suvive by yourself? Why do you need friendship, you can still live as a loner all your life? It's a sad, worthless life...

Why are there laws, when you already know right from wrong? Why do you get punished for crime? Why do you get death (or life sentence) for some crimes, but able to get prison/fined/etc and turn your life around for others? Why not all just die, you might just end up doing the same crime again!


As for the flood, explorers are "99.9 percent" sure they've found Noah's ark in Turkey, beneath snow and volcanic debris on Mount Ararat. However, i don't assume it's actual fact, it could be faked.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/


"A team of evangelical Christian explorers claim they've found the remains of Noah's ark beneath snow and volcanic debris on Turkey's Mount Ararat (map).

But some archaeologists and historians are taking the latest claim that Noah's ark has been found about as seriously as they have past ones—which is to say not very.

"I don't know of any expedition that ever went looking for the ark and didn't find it," said Paul Zimansky, an archaeologist specializing in the Middle East at Stony Brook University in New York State."

Amusing.

So why exactly the irrelevant questioning of the need of parents, friends, laws and consequences?

A friend can have all of these, whether you have biological as opposed to theological parents, whether your neighbour is your friend as opposed to Jesus, whether your laws are in the Constitution as opposed to the Bible, and whether the consequences of breaking these laws are controlled by the judiciary system in concordance with the legislated Constitution as opposed to God's wrath (and the right or no right to Salvation).

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 6 2010, 10:45 AM

So your asking will good atheists go to hell?

It says the love of Jesus extends to people who've spent years doing evil things, if they'll only sincerely accept him and turn away from them, they will be saved.

However, we can only assume what hell is...

Hell has traditionally been thought of as a place of eternal torment. It has been argued that the word translated in many Bible versions as eternal actually more commonly means age-long. There are verses that suggest that everyone will eventually be "saved", and so it is argued that hell is a place where people will go for a time in order that they are induced to repent sincerely of their former ways, after which they can enter heaven. (grounded by your parent maybe?)

However, there are Bible verses that suggest that some souls will be annihilated. Also there is a lake of fire which souls is casted into. (some souls will be beyond the point of being saved)

Even if hell isn't real, you create your own hell within yourself anyway from the things your've done, eating away at you. People regret things that they did and must live with for the rest of their life. Some get to the point of emotional creating their own hell here on earth. (you end up punishing yourself anyway)

It's also argued by some that hell will not be a place of pain, as traditionally thought, but a place of eternal shame at being separated from God because of sin, the degree of shame and separation corresponding to the amount of sin committed on earth.

It is also said there will be a Judgement Day... At the time of Judgement Day there will be fair warning for all. In several places it says that on that day, people will be judged according to their actions, and those who have done good deeds will go to heaven, while people who have rejected Christ and done evil will go to hell.


QUOTE
So why exactly the irrelevant questioning of the need of parents, friends, laws and consequences?


Questions to get you thinking, God is like your parents, God simply wants your friendship, God wants you to follow his laws for your own good. Without those things, you can still struggle on, but it's not much a life. If you think man can do fine on his own, you clearly have been living in a different world than this one! Not one day goes by in which we don't screw up.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 6 2010, 10:48 AM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 11:45 AM) *
So your asking will good atheists go to hell?

...

It is also said there will be a Judgement Day... At the time of Judgement Day there will be fair warning for all. In several places it says that on that day, people will be judged according to their actions, and those who have done good deeds will go to heaven, while people who have rejected Christ and done evil will go to hell.

I am not asking if good atheists will go to Hell. And it is also said there will NOT be a Judgement Day.

Posted by: Staffy Jul 6 2010, 11:16 AM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 6 2010, 11:48 AM) *
I am not asking if good atheists will go to Hell. And it is also said there will NOT be a Judgement Day.


What is hell anyway? In my belief hell must be to never die - in contrary to what the bible says. Living a life like this on earth forever and never get a relief must be pure hell by my means. Imagine practicing the same scales for some 2000 years, having the same girlfriend and listen to the angels every day.... I will be bored in just a couple of years. I'd rather go for the Hell in the bible with some fire, sodom & gomorra, some action and a life in sin..... biggrin.gif

Seriously, heaven must be to die and then REMAIN dead.

Just my 2 cents.

//Staffay

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 6 2010, 11:18 AM

The top bit was to answer tonyparnham, the second bit was your question, Alexiaden93.

Where does it say there will NOT be a judgement day?

No one will know the day, but it says on Judgment day it will be signaled. Christ will descend.

The dead souls will rise. Which is why I don't believe death as eternal damnation for the non-believers, etc.

And they will be judged, each one according to his works.

When you die, you soul lives on. This is hopeful for the innocent that die at birth or never had a chance at life to still make it into heaven.

Posted by: tonyparnham Jul 6 2010, 12:35 PM

Hi Azzaboi,
I'm not asking you to pass judgement or preach to me I already understand all that I am an aethiest and dont accept Jesus, I just would like to know according to your religion what happens to my soul when I die?
Regards Tony

Posted by: The Uncreator Jul 6 2010, 12:54 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi)

I don't believe in the Apollo 11 moon landing with 1000s of anomalies which don't add up, and there was also a good reason to fake it.



To be honest, I don't see how anyone can really not believe in Apollo 11. The moon, while far, is certainly not beyond our reach. Sure, there was good reasons to fake it, but there were better reasons to actually go there.


QUOTE (Azzaboi)

Actually we are still waiting for that... we have not seen the flag (blown away with no air?) and we can't see the footprint. All we have actually see is the crater (which could of been there in the first place) and a dot... If the hubble telescope is powerful enough to see millions of miles away why do we not have a telescope powerful enough to see the footprints and flag on the moon? Telescopes mostly gather light, to make dark things visible, finding the footprint will be impossible with today's technology.



Momentum can move the flag alone, which is why it appears to be "blown". Its hard to see the foot print because the moon has 1/6 the gravity of earth, a foot, even with all the astronauts equipment, would not make an impression as deep as one on earth. And telescopes don't make dark things visible. They gather light from a great distance that the human eye cannot perceive - The Hubble, as you mentioned - Is in orbit around the earth, so it does not have to look through our atmosphere - And the atmosphere alone hides a lot of the universe.It makes distant objects visible, and some of those objects are some of the most luminous objects in the cosmic sky. Gathering light from an object several hundreds or millions of light years away with the hubble is not quite the same as doing it with a footprint on the moon, which by all respective distances is next to it. My Physics professor said its like taking a picture of your mother while she is 20 feet from you, nice clear picture. Move her against the lens and you get distortion, Just like if the hubble were to aim its lens at the moon. Its probably too close for a clear image. Although, I am not quite sure of the capabilities of the Hubbles "zoom out" option, it seems to be bigger on the "zoom in" side of things.


QUOTE (Azzaboi)
The moon doesn't spin, it is below freezing on one side and too hot on the other and have radiation. Yes, they did have radiation poison, plus one to the facts.



The moon rotates about once every 25-30 days. It spins on its lunar axis every lunar cycle (an orbit around earth) which is why we observe the same side of the moon. If it did not rotate at all, we would observe all sides of the moon over a year period of time.

QUOTE (Azzaboi)
We didn't have the technology back then to make it all the way there, let along document it. Yet there was no more than two-second delay in two-way communications at a distance of a 400,000 km (250,000 miles). There may also be some documentary films where the delay has been edited out?



Radio waves travel quite fast in space - about 186,000 miles per second, which means it would take just a tad bit over 2.5 second for the signal to travel there and back.


QUOTE (Azzaboi)
They did make it into earth orbit, but didn't have enough force/fuel to slingshot themselves to the moon, let along come all the way back as planned. So they stayed in orbit, returned and faked the rest at Area 51 where there is satellite images which look like the pretty much like the moon landing. Exposed to radiation while in orbit?



A shuttle is not in constant thrust in space, It uses corrective thrusts and bursts of fuel, not a full on blast. Inertia/momentum/gravity can do the rest. It uses a constant thrust to leave the atmosphere, but thats about it.

Posted by: Skewlbuzz Jul 6 2010, 01:51 PM

I'm not gonna join any discussion on religion, just wanted to add a fact on the topic of man being on the moon.

Several retroreflectors were planted on the moon by the Apollo 11 crew. Through laser ranging this has been used to study the varying distance between Earth and the moon.
Actually anyone with the proper equipment can point a laser at the moon, aim for one of the reflectors, and record the light being returned.

This fact has on many occasions been used to prove that man have actually set foot on the moon.

Posted by: Chowy Fernandez Jul 6 2010, 06:18 PM

i believe in personal energie, every one of us is a god, every one of us has a god inside, every one of us has unsensless powers,
i also believe theres someting more than that, but we have to work on our love and peace levels, and then we are going to see things that we didn´t think or dream about.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 6 2010, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 12:18 PM) *
Where does it say there will NOT be a judgement day?

In the hearts of many Atheists. Are you saying the only true word is that of God?

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 6 2010, 08:24 PM

I'm not passing any judgement nor am I some preacher. Nor will i know all the facts...
I'm not saying it's 100% proven facts and you must convert or anything like that.

I just tried to show the way I think, probably totally different to the next. I tried to answer your and other questions the best I could and how I think about things. I replied to yours 'So your asking will good atheists go to hell?' before. It's not a simple subject either way you look at it. The simple answer is when we die, we are not judged right then and there, but at the day of Judgement Day. You are probably the biggest judge of yourself anyways here on earth. That's what I believe, you may have some different ideas.

The moon landing was just an example to how you can look at things from two sides and take in total different facts.

The same deal - do you believe in or celebrate...
evolution = or God created the heavens and the earth
ghosts/spirits = or human souls and the spirit of Christ
the easter bunny = or the resurrection of Christ
santa (coca cola) = or Saint Nick (christian)
Christmas (pagan dancing naked, raping and murdering) = or the incorrect date of the birth of Christ (we don't know the real date)
Thanksgiving = Christian semi-religious history of giving thanks to God
St. Patrick's Day = celebrates Christian Saint Patrick
St. Andrew's Day = celebrates Christian Saint Andrew
Rest on Sunday = the Lord's rest day
etc...

Humans have be known to take exisiting things and twist them. The truth is holidays have been a part of Christianity from the beginning, with Easter being the oldest. You might want to stop celebrating them if it offences you. Christmas is a mix up. Seven days in a week with the weekend, also based from Christian religion.

So there's two sides of everything, it's up to you what to believe or not. Something which could be a lie or something which could be a lie. There seems to be more lies around not being Christian. Anyway that just the way I look at it.

Posted by: Marek Rojewski Jul 6 2010, 08:34 PM

Just to clear few things, raping and murdering as history shows was not less, maybe even more a Christian than Pagan thing.

Pagans of different believes coexisted in Europe, there were no holy wars, the only war was the one brought under the sign of the cross, and it was the so called "conversion". This is another reason to dislike the Catholic Church. Pagan cultures were much more "developed" in some senses, for example hygiene (is it the right word?) was much more developed in Poland/Scandinavia before Christianity. This has multiple evidences, such as archaeological "disappearance" of "baths/saunas" that were often built before the conversion.

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 6 2010, 08:46 PM

Everyone sins, even Christians. The differences is, it's still celebrating days of darkness and pain only being ended by the rape and murder of innocents. Christians ask forgiveness and move on, and would never celebrate that but rather something positive.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 6 2010, 09:27 PM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 09:24 PM) *
I replied to yours 'So your asking will good atheists go to hell?' before.

That's not "mine" that's yours. If you're going to refer to my question, quote me, not yourself. And for your information (for the second time), I have never asked this question. Please give me a quotation, this could save you a lot of energy.

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 09:24 PM) *
...

Christmas (pagan dancing naked, raping and murdering) = or the incorrect date of the birth of Christ (we don't know the real date)

...

Humans have be known to take exisiting things and twist them. The truth is holidays have been a part of Christianity from the beginning, with Easter being the oldest.

You do realise that Christmas wasn't even called Christmas before? It's derived from Jesus Christ. The true name is "Sol invictus" or the return of the Sun after a long period of darkness in the season of winter.

What can I say? Atheism used to be punishable by death, and without any significant sientific progress 2000 years ago, what were people to believe? Of course our society is based on Christianity and its many holidays. Yes we are not going to kill people, but is it because God told us not to, or because we actually have a brain, that does not need to follow a 10 cm wide book ?

Seriously, everything you are saying is almost obvious. What does it all mean? Does it actually matter in this discussion that Christianity was the founder of modern day society? AS I SAID, and I repeat "Atheism used to be punishable by death, and without any significant sientific progress 2000 years ago, what were people to believe? Of course our society is based on Christianity and its many holidays."

Oh and by the way... You do realise Paganism is thousands of years older than Christianity, and Judaism even more so? You are talking about Christianity as if it were the greatest belief in the world, which is expected from a follower of his faith. When protecting Christianity, use facts, not Christianity. History is far more relevant than any of what is said in the Bible?

It's like saying "How can you really know for sure that we are actually going to be judged and end up like Michael Jackson's Thriller?" and you reply "Because in the Bible, God says that there will be a Judgement Day etc." I mean... That just doesn't have any value in an intellectual discussion, I apologise sincerely, but it doesn't.

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 6 2010, 09:46 PM) *
Everyone sins, even Christians. The differences is, it's still celebrating days of darkness and pain only being ended by the rape and murder of innocents. Christians ask forgiveness and move on, and would never celebrate that but rather something positive.

You got me there. I rape my neighbour on Christmas, and I really believe all Atheists do the same. I mean, consumerism, good food, music and all of that is just a side-effect of this merry season. Symbolically, yes, we do rape our neighbours, and I am glad you don't.

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 7 2010, 12:40 AM

Alexiaden93 are you mad at me for just giving my side?
Plus your not the only person on here who I've replied too, that was for someone else.

Your've also proven my point, Humans have be known to take exisiting things and twist them...

QUOTE
You got me there. I rape my neighbour on Christmas, and I really believe all Atheists do the same. I mean, consumerism, good food, music and all of that is just a side-effect of this merry season. Symbolically, yes, we do rape our neighbours, and I am glad you don't.


I know Christmas is a pagan celebration and been around longer... I even said that Christmas (pagan dancing naked, raping and murdering) or the incorrect date of the birth of Christ (we don't know the real date). I was simply saying which would you rather celebrate? Not that you may do it, but yet you still celebrate it just in a different lime-light?

QUOTE
Yes we are not going to kill people, but is it because God told us not to, or because we actually have a brain, that does not need to follow a 10 cm wide book?


So I guess you can throw away all your books, books which contain knowledge and help you learn, you can still learn without them. Same diff. Mankind knows it, but still does it anyway so we don't follow it just because we know. You miss my point of human law is all based from that religion, thou say not steal, murder, etc. Is that such a bad thing?

QUOTE
When protecting Christianity, use facts, not Christianity. History is far more relevant than any of what is said in the Bible?


Who said anything about protecting religion? It's been around for thousands of years and will probably be for years to come. Sure doesn't need any protection. If history is far more relevant, yet the religion is wrapped entirely around history and holidays, weeks, etc are all based from it, does that make it relevant enough? Showing a fact like finding the Ark will also prove as much as the moon landing, nothing to a non-believer who will twist it anyway. What's to say it's not just a fake anyway, can you prove any fact from fiction without someone else questioning it? Judgement Day 2012? There's scientific proof of it's existence and it's been calculated for thousands of years, plus its the end of the earths cycle. Does that make me believe it? Not really, it can easily be proven wrong too.

Even if the bible is a story book or translated incorrectly, things in history and even today seem to still be based on it. That's what I take from it, and all I was trying to say.

What really gets me is why people make such a big deal out of it if they don't even believe it.

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 7 2010, 12:44 AM

QUOTE (Azzaboi @ Jul 7 2010, 01:40 AM) *
What really gets me is why people make such a big deal out of it if they don't even believe it.

Well, if religion hasn't tolerated free-thinking since the beginning of time, I don't see why free-thinking should tolerate religion. As oxymoronic as it may sound.

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 7 2010, 12:59 AM

It says God gave us free-will, isn't that free-thinking? Religion talks a lot about free-will, it's basically where it all started from. Otherwise we will all be just boring robots.

QUOTE
What really gets me is why people make such a big deal out of it if they don't even believe it.

I meant I don't understand why people get to the point of killing for just believing in something different - either way you look at it. It's kinda sad.

I never preached, tried to convert or change anyones beliefs, nor am I saying I know all the answers, don't get me wrong there. I believe everyone should make up their own mind what to believe.

Posted by: Gary Jul 7 2010, 06:45 AM

I am staying clear of the whole religion issue.. ambivalent on that one as I personally flip flop.

The moon issue.. A bit of advice, do not make those comments to Buzz Aldrin laugh.gif

I work as a long time engineering scientist at the company that designed, developed, tested and manufactured the F1 rocket engine, five of which were mounted to the Apollo 11 Saturn V. In fact, an F1 engine stands tall right outside the front of my company, I get to see her nearly everyday. I consider myself extremely lucky to have personally known many of the old timers who developed the technology that put the US on the moon.. saying that this did not happen to me is akin to blasphemy wink.gif

I do find it interesting that on one hand you are sold on the idea of something that is entirely based in faith but eager to dismiss a fact based engineering triumph that not only occurred in recent time (in a historical sense) but is also intensely documented. What you have stumbled across is a silly conspiracy theory that simply has no merit. Conspiracy theories abound.. the Holocaust did not happen, The US Govt created 9/11..etc..etc. Don't believe everything you read.




Gary

Posted by: Azzaboi Jul 7 2010, 07:57 AM

So you work for the American Government? The biggest conspiracy cover ups in the world? laugh.gif

I kidd, no offence or blasphemy to your rocket scientist work! I really repect it, must be awesome to have that opportunity!

The moon landing was just an example of how people can take something and twist it the other way - like religion. Yes, I do believe we made it to the moon, just not with Apollo 11. That made it into space then the facts start to fade, there is no solid proof without a conspiracy, lol. I enjoy conspiracy theories (only to see a different point of view) and ripping apart things, and yes I've even done that with religion, why else would I be discussing it.

Posted by: tonyparnham Jul 7 2010, 01:40 PM

To Azzaboi,

The continuing revelations in science are a nightmare to creationists and religions. The reason why you are in denial about the moon landings and other stuff is due to this. You appear to be continually finding reasons to discredit the truth such as the moon landings and other scientific discoveries because it keeps chipping away at your religious beliefs, traditions and teachings. The bottom line is science can be tested and demonstrated, God cannot because there's nothing to test.
So which God is the correct God? is it the Aztec, Greek, Chineese, Norse, Hindu, Tibetan the Abraham Gods which are Jewish, Christian and Islam. Whichever one you pick you will be consdered an athiest to the others.
What if Hinduism is the right one they have 9 million members and all think theirs is correct like you do. Just think if yours is the Christian one you might finish up in the Hindu hell or the Islamic hell or even the Zanist hell. It's only a fine line that you were'nt born in Greece 2000 yrs ago you may be worshipping Appollo.
Regards Tony

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 7 2010, 03:08 PM

Just a quick question
how do archeologists know where to start digging

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 7 2010, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 7 2010, 04:08 PM) *
Just a quick question
how do archeologists know where to start digging

A quick answer then:
They find a secret treasure map marked X.

Posted by: jstcrsn Jul 7 2010, 03:17 PM

QUOTE (Alexiaden93 @ Jul 7 2010, 03:09 PM) *
A quick answer then:
They find a secret treasure map marked X.


i found that map too

Posted by: Alexiaden93 Jul 7 2010, 03:17 PM

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jul 7 2010, 04:17 PM) *
i found that map too

Well done.

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