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Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 4 2012, 06:45 PM

if you were going to invest 2K+ on a new live rig, where would you put the money if you played Rock/Metal.

AxeFX or Mesa Boogie MK V
I'm limiting it to these two because I'm a mesa hound, and I've never tried the AxeFX.

I know - go to a store and try it out - but that's really an undertaking. You have to get store personnel to hook it up in the loud room next to the mesa, which means they'd have to cart in speakers and an amp of some sort. Plus, I'd have to crank them to hear their true colors.

What's been your experience if you've tried them before?

Thanks!
Chris

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Dec 4 2012, 07:02 PM

Good question!! I've never tried an Axe so I can't say which one would be better. Mesa Boogie amps are killer but I would like to know the opinion of those who could use both.

Posted by: Alex Feather Dec 4 2012, 11:35 PM

Hmmm I would suggest neither...
I think Kemper profiling amp is the way to go now you can get any amp you want in it and have it live!
I own Axe and it works great live but for me it is a more studio unit
If I had to choose between two I would go with Axe over mesa
Here is the link for Kemper

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 5 2012, 12:12 AM

I HAVE SEEN THIS DONE WITH THE AXEFX
and have not heard if the Kemper reacts like a tube amp(live ) and the axefx does
I have and will still be , coveting the axefx

Posted by: SpaseMoonkey Dec 5 2012, 12:23 AM

*Raises Hand* Ooooh oooh me me pick me!

I think I shall be the closest person to talk of this very subject but as always it is a personal preference. Some people are hardcore tube players and would never say using a modeling device it can't come close to the tone. With that out of the way.


I am a bedroom player 100% I've never played a gig, I jam with some friends and such but thats about it for playing live. I loved my triple rectifier. I did a v30/gt75-12 X in my cab, sounded so good. But to crank it to get that great tone was way to loud for just a bedroom player was a bit overkill. I've owned the Pod HD500 good little unit but it actually was a down payment on the mesa. After a good year of owning the amp I got tired of never being able to hear the tone. So I went on youtube and looked up the axe-fx 2. I was pretty dead set on ordering it. I don't play cleans at all, its just not well.. Metal duh! But I seen a comparison of cleans on the Axe/Kemper. I was sold the very next day I ordered the Kemper.


Next you'll be like ok so you have this product but what does it sound like? Well I have been trying to play cleaner and do bends so here is a clip I was working on today to have as a reference point in my playing. I'm not the greatest at mixing or mastering seeing how I've just recently begun to try with it. But here is a direct clip recorded from Guitar > Kemper > Interface > PC.

https://soundcloud.com/spasemoonkey/mix-testing-solos

This is how people have explained the 2 items to me. Axe-FX2 is for live rigging, the Kemper is better for studio work. They both ups and downs. The Kemper has that tube feeling to it as well.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 5 2012, 01:32 AM

Well, as much as it would be cool to have a MESA, the AXE FX can sound like a Mesa and just about any other amp you can think of and fits in a rack so easier to carry.

Todd

Posted by: PosterBoy Dec 5 2012, 08:16 AM

I only have the Axe Ultra not the II, and I've had it since 2008.

The things I love.

So many amp choices, although I have my favourites for live use, I'm sure the others will make an appearance when recording. It also helps when I suddenly want to play a different genre of music.

The quality of the effects up their with Eventide etc and the routing makes it really flexible.

The patch switching is pretty seamless, I've never heard a horrible lag in the change, and the reverb and delay can spillover (as long as the other patch has the effect block in it)


This is the thing and I don't know if the Axe II has made this a moot point but

It doesn't sound like an amp in the same room as you, it sounds like a mic'd up amp (if you are using the power amp and cab simulation)
I didn't notice this or at least I got used to it until I set up my Fender HR Deville to check it out before advertising it for sale and I was like 'Wow this amp sounds so good'

Playing live in a full band (I play in a worship team where my stage volume has to be fairly controlled) I would pair it up with a Matrix power amp and a Cab with EV12Ls in it, these have been said to work well with both the power amp and cab simulation on or off.

This negative, and I'm not sure how much it exists with the Axe II, will only be noticed by you, and not your audience and probably not band mates. Soundguys will love you.

You'll also have a killer recording device

Posted by: Alex Feather Dec 5 2012, 09:52 AM

Thank you very much for the takes! Sounds very close! To be honest I have heard the opposite that AXE FX is better for studio and Kemper is better for live I guess everyone like different stuff and have their own way to use it!
I own AXE and know a few guys who own Kemper we did some jams and I would totally use it live the price is a little too much and I am pretty happy with my Ugly amps and Fenders so not really sure if I want it anymore...

Posted by: SpaseMoonkey Dec 5 2012, 03:06 PM

They told me the AXE FX is more towards live due its a rack mount, so it's easier to move as a whole than the Kemper.

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Dec 5 2012, 03:37 PM

This sounds very reasonable... great info everybody!

Posted by: ztevie Dec 5 2012, 03:56 PM

I would say Axe Fx II is great in a studio environment. Because of all the connection possibilities. USB, SPDIF, Midi and several analog ins/outs. It also seems superior to the Kemper regarding internal routing possibilities.

For me, the Axe is pretty much a flawless modeling unit. It has everything I need and the tone is so close that I don't hear any difference from the real thing... IMHO that is...

Posted by: maharzan Dec 5 2012, 04:04 PM

I have the II too... highly recommended.

Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 5 2012, 07:42 PM

Seems like the consensus is that the modeling unit has become the preferred rig over and against tube amps for live performance in this thread.

1. Because it sounds so close to the real deal
2. Because it is rack-able, and therefore easier to transport than an amp
3. Sound man will love you because he can control your life
4. Ideal for recording - DI / amp modeling (choose your sound / effects)

I don't know why I'm so scared to make a choice! Oddly, it's not the price tag that worries me either. I know what a Mesa sounds like first-hand on stage, and I love the sound. I don't have hands on experience with the AxeFX, so that's an unknown, but I hear all the testimonies (including John Petrucci appears to be using it (or at least was for a time) ).

I'm going to have to go sit under a tree in the Bahamas for a while for some quiet contemplation time. Oh the agony of decision making!

Thanks everyone!
Chris!

Posted by: Opetholic Dec 5 2012, 08:31 PM

I would go for the Mesa Mark V. The digital amp simulators surely do an amazing job but I think they lack something a tube amp has (surely they lack the tube transistor ) So to me they never sound the same, no matter how great they are. Also if I understand right you will use it on stage, so the actual tube amp is then perfect for you. You can crank it up and use it to its full capacity I think many players once they find a good tone settle for it, think of it that way, do you really think you will continuously change your tone and try out all the possible models that come with an Axe Fx ??

Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 5 2012, 09:26 PM

That's the tricky part for me to answer - My band does covers of everything from Talking Heads to Dio - I mean we cover rock from the 80's to the present, and each song we play calls for a different guitar tone. But - and here's the kicker - we've been getting along fine so far with my current tube amp and a pedal here and there - so I don't need a modeler to exist. A Mesa would sound better to my ear (I currently have a Peavy). But would modeler benefit me more than say my existing pedals? I don't know... I'm inclined to hook up my HD500 for my next show to see how going fully emulated goes. But I sure do love the growl of a tube amp on stage. But I'm guessing something like the AxeFX growls too based on what I'm reading Grrrrr.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 5 2012, 11:39 PM

Part of it comes to practicallity. If you are happy with your AMP/TONE, do you really need an Axe Fx? Nope. However, as MARCUS mentioned (He has a Mesa and and Axe Fx), you can't always bring the Mesa with, and it's not always easy either way. In those cases, having the AXE FX, is really handy. If nothing else as a backup. This of course assumes you can afford to have that much money tied up in an amp and axe fx.

Todd

Posted by: Alex Feather Dec 6 2012, 12:07 AM

You have a good point! But I am just not use to racks I guess and also Axe ii has a lot of great features for the studio work like USB etc. We need to compare AXE FX VS Kemper
In this clip you can really hear the difference between The real deal - Kemper and AXE FX

Posted by: Patrik Berg Dec 6 2012, 01:52 AM

Thanks Alex, that is a great demonstration of why to get a real amp
IMO the kemper sounds closer to the real amp, but that is me listening on my phone speakers.

Posted by: PosterBoy Dec 6 2012, 12:29 PM

In that clip you can tell the difference between the two, but also the ears and tweaking of the person who programmed the patch comes into it too.

Plus Cliff is constantly creating updates for the Axe 2.

I think for Jams the Axe 2 with all the effect options is probably the best choice for a cover band situation.

He could go from SRV or John Mayer to Rage against the machine complete with whammy pedal in one press of a footswitch.

The outlay for the Axe Fx, midi controller and optional power amp and cab or FRFR Monitor is not cheap though. Then neither is a Mesa Rig either

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Dec 6 2012, 03:32 PM

This is a very good comparison. The kemper is closer to the real amp, but the real amp wins!

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 7 2012, 04:40 AM

So after hearing everyone tell you three different things, you are back to square one! Hehehehe. That's the way the cookie crumbles eh?

KEMPER: KIller modeling. Many folks seem to agree that it does pure modeling a smidge better. However, the routing, and Effects section are very limited compared to the Axe Fx. The kepmer as 4 slots for stomp box style effects. The Axe FX has a list off effects as long as your arm and all of them are great quality. But if TONE is your goal, pure, amp, tone. This is probably the way to go. BUT for live, your "Tone" will sound a lot like whatever you mic it with. (SM57) and the house PA. Something to consider. But for recording, many pros refuse to use anything else, producers as well. In a controlled setting, hard to beat.

AXE FX: Not quite as good at modeling as the Kemper, so the bulk of reviews seem to say, but only just barely. And superior routing/efx. However, though it's great for live since you can skip the amp, (modeling/cab emulation/straight to the board and BINGO!) for recording it's rated just a hair behind the kemper from what I"ve read but of course, people that own them/love them will tell you that's crap.

AMP: The previous two are MODELLING an amp. This option IS AN AMP. It's the real deal. It's what the others are trying to fake. Nobody ever woke up crying cause they own a MESA RECTO. It's an heirloom. Something you can give to your kids. It's nearly eternal. The tone, the prestige, the curb apppeal, it's all there. But so is the price and hassle factor. A valve amp is a living breathing beast. Like a frisky pet, it's sometimes unpredictable but always fun.

Todd

Posted by: Alex Feather Dec 7 2012, 08:28 AM

I think so too!

Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 7 2012, 09:16 AM

haha - well stated Todd.
I've decided on going for a Mesa stage amp - the real deal. The thing I'm grappling with right now is which one? This evening, I played a gig with my peavey classic 50 2x12. At 50 watts, it was plenty loud to fill the room - there were roughly 100+ people - it was a great time. I told the sound engineer when he came to mic my cab that I really wanted to crank my amp up past 6 - so the tubes would saturate. I told him I'd turn my amp backwards to the wall, so we did, and it was pretty good! The sound reflected off the back corner wall and filled the stage nicely so I could hear myself play, and the engineer was happy because he could control what the audience got through the PA system. It was a win win. It was hilarious - after the show, like 5 people came up to me after the show to ask why I turned my amp backwards to the wall. All of them guitarists, of course haha.

Okay, so I tell you this why? Because Recto's heads are 90/100 watts! The venues I play are small. There's no way I'm going to bring a half stack to a show and turn it down! haha. They sound best cranked up, so I need to come up with a way to saturate tubes for tone, but not kill anyone's ears, so I'm thinking of a mesa combo instead of a head.

I'll save my money and the debate for what modeler is best for a later time. Now to start a new thread on amps! haha. JK.

Thanks everyone!
Chris

Posted by: Slavenko Erazer Dec 7 2012, 10:11 AM

how was your gig James, do u have any videos recorded?

Did u think about attenuator!?

Posted by: zoom Dec 7 2012, 11:46 AM

Simple answer is turn speaker in cab backwards so it looks cool (important!! ) and your sound engineer and yourself are happy!!
combo doesn't look quite as cool.

Posted by: SpaseMoonkey Dec 7 2012, 01:42 PM

Ooohhh and add gold plating to it so it really blings in the lights!

Posted by: Gabriel Leopardi Dec 7 2012, 03:33 PM

I loved this quote "Something you can give to your kids. It's nearly eternal.". Here these kind of emulators and amps are VERY expensive so getting a digital machine that gets old every 2 years is not a good investment...

Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 7 2012, 06:51 PM

this is win!



No video ~ my wife was there with a camera - my new fb profile pic is one she got.

Power trio! My first live gig as a trio! It was pretty awesome - my playing wasn't all that good, but no one seemed to care - I was energetic and played the excited singer / player so people had something to look at.

We played at 9:30 P.M. just before the Headliner - the place was crickets until I hit the first note of our opening song - Twilight Zone by Golden Earring - the doors of the lobby opened up and about 50 people just piled in at one time. By the time we were done the place was filled from front to back. It was a wild feeling. Fun night for sure.

Our set was
Twilight Zone - Golden Earring
A Girl Like You - Smithereens
Psycho Killer - Talking Heads
Where is My Mind - Pixies
Kryptonite - 3 Doors Down
Interstate Love Song - Stone Temple Pilots

I did band intros during the bass solo for Twilight Zone. That song ended up being about 8 minutes long, so we had to chop our last song due to time constraints

Cheers!

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 7 2012, 11:33 PM

if you can get a closed bck cab , it will sound better . Try it in a store and see !

Posted by: TeoWulf Dec 7 2012, 11:44 PM

Why not the mini Recto?
http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Rectifier_Series/Mini_Rectifier_25/miniRectifier25.html

Posted by: ConnorGilks Dec 8 2012, 12:54 AM

I find the AxeFX II would be your best bet, as you can get a great Mesa Mark V sound, plus any other sound you could possibly want.

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 8 2012, 05:23 AM

A tough decision to be sure! Congrats on reaching any conclusion at all in the amp/modeller quandry as it's a tough call when both cases have merit. So, on to playing live with a MESA in a smallish room.

1.)GET A HOT PLATE!!!!! A little box that lets the amp hit saturation at low volume. OR the sound guy will PULL YOU OUT OF THE MIX!!! ARRGGHHH!!!

2.)Get a Mini Recto. Loses out a bit on curb appeal, but sounds like a MESA should at lower volume.

3.)Do what everybody else does and get a TUBE SCREAMER ( I prefer the original 808) and add volume knob up, distortion knob at zero to drive your amp in a good way at low volume

Here is a link to long and boring history of the tube screamer and gives info on why the originals are sooooo sought after by tube nuts.

http://www.analogman.com/tshist.htm

Todd

Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 8 2012, 07:59 AM

I'm looking at the Mesa Roadster. Either the head or the combo 212. Either would suit me fine at this point. I found a great deal on craigslist, but haven't heard back from the guy. There's a music store going out of business that has the combo on sale. So, ... after all the research, I think it will serve me best given I do covers and it has 4 channels. As for pedals, I had the screamer, and on my current amp, it basically made my clean channel dirty as if my dirty channel were gained down. On my dirt channel, it basically didn't sound right to my ears.

I picked up an EP boost, and I have to say, it's the best pedal I have in my small arsenal. It just adds to every channel in such a great way it's hard to describe.

Thanks. I'll let you know when/if I get an amp.

Chris!

Posted by: Patrik Berg Dec 8 2012, 08:30 AM

Hughes & Kettener tube meister 18 is a great sounding little head too, get a greenback loaded cab or build one yourself. 18 watts lets you crank it on stage

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 11 2012, 12:56 AM

That combo is a killer working musicians amp. Great tone and not nearly as hefty to tote as the cab/head combo. Four channels to choose from, all the gain you could want. A fine choice. The Stack of course retains the curb/rock star appeal that doesn't exist IMHO in a "Combo". So again, a personal choice.

BTW, I would NOT suggest using a screamer on your clean channel, it would "Drive" your cleans to dirty. On the dirty channel, on a good tube amp, the original screamers (as in not reissue/recent) sound amazing IMHO. Did you have one of the newer screamers? The new ones IMHO are a bit crap. But if it didn't sound right.........

The EP boost is a really fine pedal It's doing what screamer does for most folks which is clean boost. There is a new one that adds a compressor and a mix knob so you can blend compressed signal and original signal so you don't lose attack. Now your thinking "Why a compressor?" The guys at XOTIC added a compressor to their spiff clean boost pedal to compress the signal a bit before it gets boosted which can help wads when playing lead. The mix knob allows you to dial in just enough so you still have your original tone. Folks that use them LOVE them. But if the EP boost is working for ya.......


http://www.xotic.us/effects/sp_comp/index.html



Todd

Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 11 2012, 02:18 AM

Yah, that's rad! the EP boost I'm using doesn't have the compression but it really does sound good on both the clean and dirt channels. I don't normally go HIGH gain because the covers I do are pretty much rock - not much metal past Dio. I'm looking at the head/cab now. I figure I can set up a 4x12 at my studio, and get a 2x12 to tote around to practice. The combo is like 100 lbs!! Talk about a tank! Being able to grip a 2x12 in one hand and a head on the other should make life a lot easier (I'm guessing). Just more trips to the car - but I'm already at 2 trips with my combo, pedal board and guitar, so 2 trips shouldn't be that much of a hassle! haha.

Thanks for the heads up on that EP. I might have to try one out! EP is just amazing tone-wise. I leave it at about 1/4 turn for cleans, then turn it off for dirty rhythm, then back on for leads. Beautiful tone! And not too much!

The screamer I had just made the dirt channel (fuzzy). Sounded great on the clean Chanel though.

Posted by: PosterBoy Dec 11 2012, 03:33 PM

I sometimes think I wish I stayed with the pedals and amp approach so I would develop more of a signature sound.

Plus the fun of buying pedals rather than just trying to emulate them (which is luckily less expensive)

Have a look at these boards by LA Sound Design.

Beautifully put together and cabled and sonically mindblowing.

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/forum/search.php?keywords=pedalboard+of+the+week&terms=all&author=&fid%5B%5D=1&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Posted by: SirJamsalot Dec 11 2012, 08:32 PM

I've seen this site before. Some of those pedal boards are just Beautiful for being just a bunch of pedals stacked on a board! Thanks for the link!