A Reply To A Facebook Post:
Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 15 2021, 07:04 PM
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Someone asked about what this chord was on Facebook:


Attached Image

And there was a lot of people saying either "Hendrix chord" or "Ebm7#9", "Ebm#9" and similar. Other got it as Ebm7, which I think is most correct, disregarding any open strings - but they original post didn't mention those. But it prompted me to write a longer reply, and I wanted to share it with you guys, as it explains my thought process:

-----------------First reply from me-----------------


Your chord is an Ebm7. Not sure where people are getting this "#9" from. You have an Eb (root), Gb (minor 3rd), Db (7th). These are the notes. It's common practice to omit the 5th, as it doesn't hold any defining quality. Repeating a note, which is already in the chord, an octave above doesn't suddenly make it a Ebm7(#9). That #9 would be the same as the minor 3rd, and it's already stated that it's a minor chord, thus having a minor 3rd.

As an example:
You don't write an open Em7, i.e. 022033 chord as E(5)x7#9x13#17 or something silly. I've probably managed to confuse myself here, but it just proves the point as well as hurt my brain. It would just be an Em7.

022033 = EBEGDG = E G B D = Em7

And not E(5)x7#9x13#17...
E(5)=E, B
x7 (double sharp 7) = E
#9 = G
x13 (double sharp 13) = D
#17 = G

-----------------First comment over-----------------


Someone else replied to me:

"Your point is valid. I suppose it is from familiarity with E7#9. It is a bit further down the path of understanding that a chord, by convention, cannot contain two different notes designated as a third. Without using the #9 designation we would have both a major third and a minor third in one chord. When the major third in E7#9 is flattened to a minor third there is no need for the added designation because the two notes are now both minor thirds an octave apart.
Word salad comes to mind as I too hurt my brain trying to add to this discourse."

-----------------Reply to the above-----------------


Yup, if you have a major third, then the #9 can be added. smile.gif

The upper extensions can be confusing at first, but if you start to bring them down in the same octave as the triad underneath it starts to clear it up a bit, in my opinion. I.e. C7#9:

Triad: C E G
7th: Bb
#9: Eb

Had the triad been a Cm you would be looking at this, where it would not make sense to repeat the Eb as a "#9":

Triad: C Eb G
7th: Bb
(#9: Eb)

Even if you're not familiar with all the names for extensions, you can work this out on a piano by playing a simple triad, and as you add exentions it will not be necesary to add the extension name if the note is already present in the triad.

Of course talking about chord tones, non-chord tones, extensions and what kind of feel or tension they create becomes a bit more advanced as go from major chord and minor chord into dominant chords. The very simple explanation I suppose is that minor and major chords, even with their respective 7th added, are more "stable" and not "tense". The dominant chords are already tense in their interval relations, so adding say a b9 only builds more tension.

Staying strictly to root position of the chords, as inversions can create different "flavors" too:
Personally, to my ear, even up to a min11-chord sounds stable, where as a maj11 start to not do so due to that b5-interval now between 7th and 11th and the b9 between 3rd and 11th, ie. in Cmaj11 the 7th (cool.gif and 11th (F) creates the b5-interval and 3rd (E) and 11th(F) the b9-interval. You could even see it as a C major chord (C E G) with a Bdim chord (B D F) on top.

In min11 you still have some relatively pleasent intervals. I.e. Cm11: (C Eb G)+(Bb D F). Essentially a C minor chord with a Bb major chord on top.

----

Going to the 13th extensions is where it starts to get more confusing, or where I need more time to think - or my current knowledge breaks down.
**Gonna try to see if I can grasp some logic of the 13ths here**...don't take this as anything but me trying to make some sense and describing my thought process:

Essentially a 13th in a maj13, is the same as a major 6th interval, as in a Cmaj13: *C* (1) *E* (major 3rd) *G* (5th) *B* (major 7th) *D* (major 9th) *F* (perfect 11th, same as 4th) *A* (major 13th).
C major scale: *C* (1) *D* (major 2nd) *E* (major 3rd) *F* (perfect 4th) *G* (perfect 5th) *A* (major 6th) *B* (major 7th).

We must remember that "maj" belongs to "C" and not to "13". It is a Cmaj chord and thus the 13th (same as 6th) is naturally a major 6th/13th. From our root, C, to the 6th, we have 9 half steps here, making it a major 6th.

Sticking to the key of C major, we could construct a minor chord from A minor, the 6th degree in the scale:
A min: A C E

And you would think it would be:
Am13: A C E G B D F

But...
A minor scale: *A* (1) *B* (major 2nd) *C* (minor 3rd) *D* (perfect 4th) *E* (perfect 5th) *F* (minor 6th) *G* (minor 7th)

However, if we remember that the "min" (m) belongs to the triad (A minor) and doesn't describe the "min 13th" interval, as that would usually be described with "b13" (or b6 for 6th chords), it would be Am(b13). The b13th is the same as a b6th, which is 8 half steps.

This means calling the above an Am13 would be wrong, as that "13" only has 8 half steps, where as the "13" in Cmaj13 has 9 half steps. How do we differentiate between them? One is 13, the other is b13. Cmaj13 and Amin(6). However...

...then we're going into the land of b6's. If only dealing with a minor triad + the b6th, such as a Am(b6), it is more commonly seen as the first inversion of a maj7. A C E F vs. F A C E.

Talking about Am6, the "m" describes it being a minor chord and the
"6th" describes it having a major 6th. Otherwise it would be b6. Essentially the same goes for Amin13, which theoretically includes the 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th), however since it's not a b13, that Am13 chord would be: A C E G B D F#, which are the notes from the G major/E minor scale. And the min13 chord is only ever present from the 2nd degree of the major scale - also referred to as the dorian mode. In C major scale, as we started out with, the only min13 chord that has those intervals is the D minor, which relates to the dorian mode.

Comparing minor chords from the C major scale with all the natural extentions from just the C major scale:
D minor: root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th, major 9th, perfect 11th, major 13th. It's a *Dm13*.
E minor: root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th, minor 9th, perfect 11th, minor 13th. It's something like an Em7add11(b9)(b13) chord, but it's much easier to just say it's a G13 or G13/E if we want to indicate E in the bass. Same notes.
A minor: root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th, major 9th, perfect 11th, minor 13th. It's an Am(b13), but essentially easier to think of as a C13 or C13/A.

Dominant chords (R-3-5-b7) become a much bigger discussion, as they deal better/differently with tension added from non-chord tones and even non-scale tones. I.e.
G7#9#11: R-3-5-b7-#9-#11.
G7#9#11: G-B-D-F-A#-C#

That's for another day...

-----------------Comment over-----------------


I'm sure I've made mistakes along the way, but breaking it down further like the above helped me a bit.

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Dec 15 2021, 07:54 PM


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Phil66
Dec 15 2021, 08:51 PM
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I fully concur with Ben wink.gif

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 15 2021, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 15 2021, 09:51 PM) *
I fully concur with Ben wink.gif


Essentially we only have 12 notes in our western system, so it's just about how we label those 12 notes the best, and I think what we have now seems to work pretty well, even if it creates confusion at times laugh.gif

----

Essentially you have endless frequencies in between all the notes, such as in between the minor 3rd and major 3rd, but it might not sound pleasent to your ears. We don't use those in our music, so we don't use a term such as "neutral third" or whatever we could come up with that could sit between major 3rd and minor 3rd. Those would just be described by "[number] Hz"

Simply put, if we played a C major chord from the middle C (called C4) in our "equal temperament" tuning it would have the frequencies of:

C4: 261.63 hz
E4: 329.63 hz
G4: 392.00 hz

C minor would be:

C4: 261.63 hz
Eb4: 311.13 hz
G4: 392.00 hz

But you can imagine the frequencies (numbers) in between E4 at 329.63 hz and Eb4 at 311.13 Hz. We've just considered those to not be pleasent or useful currently - in "12 tone equal temperament" tuning, which essentially creates a compromise between all the notes, keys and such. The compromise that qual temperament creates allows us to play a C major chord, but also a C# major chord and have them sound relatively similar in "in tune"-ness". In a different tuning systems, such as pure intonation, it would not work when going to C# major. Here's more about it:

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Phil66
Dec 15 2021, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Dec 15 2021, 09:40 PM) *
Essentially we only have 12 notes in our western system, so it's just about how we label those 12 notes the best, and I think what we have now seems to work pretty well, even if it creates confusion at times laugh.gif

----

Essentially you have endless frequencies in between all the notes, such as in between the minor 3rd and major 3rd, but it might not sound pleasent to your ears. We don't use those in our music, so we don't use a term such as "neutral third" or whatever we could come up with that could sit between major 3rd and minor 3rd. Those would just be described by "[number] Hz"

Simply put, if we played a C major chord from the middle C (called C4) in our "equal temperament" tuning it would have the frequencies of:

C4: 261.63 hz
E4: 329.63 hz
G4: 392.00 hz

C minor would be:

C4: 261.63 hz
Eb4: 311.13 hz
G4: 392.00 hz

But you can imagine the frequencies (numbers) in between E4 at 329.63 hz and Eb4 at 311.13 Hz. We've just considered those to not be pleasent or useful currently - in "12 tone equal temperament" tuning, which essentially creates a compromise between all the notes, keys and such. The compromise that qual temperament creates allows us to play a C major chord, but also a C# major chord and have them sound relatively similar in "in tune"-ness". In a different tuning systems, such as pure intonation, it would not work when going to C# major. Here's more about it:



I find it all very interesting, especially that video but even the "out of tune" stuff sounded good to me rolleyes.gif

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 15 2021, 11:27 PM
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This one is a good short video with more clear comparisons too actually:



QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 15 2021, 11:55 PM) *
I find it all very interesting, especially that video but even the "out of tune" stuff sounded good to me rolleyes.gif


Don't worry too much about that, music is for everyone and I still think you can do great stuff in music! cool.gif

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Todd Simpson
Dec 16 2021, 07:21 AM
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I fully concur as well smile.gif Very concise.

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Timmez
Dec 16 2021, 08:54 AM
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Nice topic.
More stuff to think is that one chord doesnt have to be one and the same chord. If you have a C chord. Its got C E G. if the bass player plays a C it is a C chord.
However of the bass player plays an A and the guitar player plays a C, the harmony is an Am7.
Because A the lowest bass more is 1, te C is the minor 3d, E is the 5th and the G is the minor 7.
So to look at a chord and his function you need to compare it with the bass note. Same is for a 9th chord. If you play an Em7b5 and add a C to the bass you got an C9 chord. So the bass dictates the chord function then.

Also there are some chords that only van be played with a mode. That is why some chords are referred to the modes. Think of an Amaj7#11 this chord can be only played with the lydian mode because that scale got the pepper extensions. Like the #4 and maj 7.

You can go really deep with music theory and there is always more to learn i guess. I like it because it can help the thinking proces.

Grtz tim

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Phil66
Dec 16 2021, 10:04 AM
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I think I'll stick to my continuous second order polynomial function thanks tongue.gif

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PosterBoy
Dec 16 2021, 11:24 AM
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I looked at that and my eyes went to the part of the shape I recognised first of all and thought F#5/Eb, but yeah Ebm7

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 16 2021, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (tflava @ Dec 16 2021, 09:54 AM) *
Nice topic.
More stuff to think is that one chord doesnt have to be one and the same chord. If you have a C chord. Its got C E G. if the bass player plays a C it is a C chord.
However of the bass player plays an A and the guitar player plays a C, the harmony is an Am7.
Because A the lowest bass more is 1, te C is the minor 3d, E is the 5th and the G is the minor 7.
So to look at a chord and his function you need to compare it with the bass note. Same is for a 9th chord. If you play an Em7b5 and add a C to the bass you got an C9 chord. So the bass dictates the chord function then.

Also there are some chords that only van be played with a mode. That is why some chords are referred to the modes. Think of an Amaj7#11 this chord can be only played with the lydian mode because that scale got the pepper extensions. Like the #4 and maj 7.

You can go really deep with music theory and there is always more to learn i guess. I like it because it can help the thinking proces.

Grtz tim


Yup, very true. It's all about context. I'd be looking at the surrounding chord progressions too. If it's something like Amin7, Amin6, Amin(b6), Amin, I'd probably use Amin all the way through even though that Amin(b6) would just more commonly be seen in the wild as an Fmaj7.

This is not to say a C F G chord progression can't be absolutely great. It 100% can. I like what Jacob Collier says about complex vs simple here, though it's not related to harmony:

"Less is more if you know what more is", he says, and it makes me think that if C F G is the limit of your imagination and of your conscious decisions, then it's not really "less" for you (or many people). It might still be great, and I understand the sentiment of keeping it simple of course - and some people might not need or want to explore the deep dark depths of it all, and that's totally fine too! It's why it's more relatable and easy for most people's ears.



It's interesting though, because if I drew a painting of a stick figure, people likely would not go: "Oh, yeah, less is more, that's as good as a Rembrandt!". Rembrandt put way many more hours and curiousity towards learning into his craft, I would say, without knowing anything about him. That's not to say a simple painting or simple song can't have great, great value. But if I play a Dream Theater song around the campfire people would say: "that's cool, but can you please play Wonderwall?" laugh.gif I know, I know, it's situational too, just some thoughts...

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 16 2021, 11:04 AM) *
I think I'll stick to my continuous second order polynomial function thanks tongue.gif


I think I learned something about that in Math A, which is needed for university educations in math/physics... I wanted to study (astro)physics at that time. I don't remember how they work, or anything else I learned at that time - it's about 10 years ago now. Use it or lose it, I suppose laugh.gif

What are those functions generally used for? Like, do they relate to your work? cool.gif

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klasaine
Dec 16 2021, 06:41 PM
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Yes and no (of course I get Collier's sentiment) ...

Attached Image

And yes, it's Ebm7. I've been reading chord charts since 1975 and I've never heard or seen that chord referred to as F#/Eb, or more properly F#/D#. The only contextual reason that would ever be called an F#/D# would be in some type of descending/ascending bass line scenario.

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 16 2021, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Dec 16 2021, 07:41 PM) *
Yes and no (of course I get Collier's sentiment) ...

And yes, it's Ebm7. I've been reading chord charts since 1975 and I've never heard or seen that chord referred to as F#/Eb, or more properly F#/D#. The only contextual reason that would ever be called an F#/D# would be in some type of descending/ascending bass line scenario.


Yes, I've never seen it as anything else than Ebm7 and can't make it make sense to say "Ebm7#9". I see where the confusion can come from (people thinking it's an Eb7#9 or somehow related, but not realizing it doesn't work that way with a minor chord). The problem with these groups on FB is that there are now 220 answers where about 75 of them are "wrong", i.e. saying Ebm7#9, "Hendrix chord" or Ebmin7#13, - some even with "likes" as if they were the correct answers. It can get a bit muddy and difficult to know what is right or wrong. That's not to say it can't be seen in different ways and context, but yeah... I think you get where I'm going with this. smile.gif

Of course, on the other hand, if you're just learning from one book and that book is wrong... that's not ideal either biggrin.gif

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Dec 16 2021, 07:20 PM


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Phil66
Dec 16 2021, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Dec 16 2021, 02:57 PM) *
What are those functions generally used for? Like, do they relate to your work? cool.gif


I don't know mate laugh.gif laugh.gif the skirt profile on a piston is quite complex, they aren't round and they aren't parallel. The profile along the skirt is something we've refined over years by looking at pistons that have been run. They aren't all the same though but our default profile works pretty well and rarely needs tweaking.

Anyway back to continuous second order polynomial function. We did a batch of prototypes for a high end performance engine company. I was talking to the boffin about skirt profiles and sent him the one I had done for their pistons which was very very close to the one he had designed using his complicated computer software. He said to me, "I can see you basically use a continuous second order polynomial function with some very minor but interesting tweaks", I said, "Yes, that's about right, we tweak it where we think it needs tweaking". Neither I, or any of the other directors knew what a CSOPF was laugh.gif Our skirt profiles are done using intuition and years of experience. I just like to throw the CSOPF thing out there to sound like a boffin sometimes tongue.gif

Turns out, the boffins had reverse engineered some of our pistons and had to give it a name wink.gif

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klasaine
Dec 16 2021, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Dec 16 2021, 11:34 AM) *
Yes, I've never seen it as anything else than Ebm7 and can't make it make sense to say "Ebm7#9". I see where the confusion can come from (people thinking it's an Eb7#9 or somehow related, but not realizing it doesn't work that way with a minor chord). The problem with these groups on FB is that there are now 220 answers where about 75 of them are "wrong", i.e. saying Ebm7#9, "Hendrix chord" or Ebmin7#13, - some even with "likes" as if they were the correct answers. It can get a bit muddy and difficult to know what is right or wrong. That's not to say it can't be seen in different ways and context, but yeah... I think you get where I'm going with this. smile.gif

Of course, on the other hand, if you're just learning from one book and that book is wrong... that's not ideal either biggrin.gif


As a guy who really really knows music theory, I can say unequivocally that there is a 50/50 amount of confusing, bad and outright wrong information on the internet regarding this subject - and I think I'm being generous (which allows me to extrapolate that it's that way for all disciplines).
I read so much horrible stuff that I don't even want to start answering it most of the time.

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 16 2021, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Dec 16 2021, 09:23 PM) *
As a guy who really really knows music theory, I can say unequivocally that there is a 50/50 amount of confusing, bad and outright wrong information on the internet regarding this subject - and I think I'm being generous (which allows me to extrapolate that it's that way for all disciplines).
I read so much horrible stuff that I don't even want to start answering it most of the time.


I usually regret replying to the comments/posts too. laugh.gif I got sucked in this time though. laugh.gif

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