Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 8 2013, 08:50 AM

Hey Ben! Let work on the improvising field. Let's first review Your. Tell me a bit about how advanced You are in notes position all over the neck. Basic minor/ major scales and modals. What key You feel is the most friendly by far ?

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 8 2013, 10:21 AM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 8 2013, 09:50 AM)

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 9 2013, 08:13 PM

First thing is self control - I mean NEVER start playing with fingers before Your mind is not connected with the track. It's good to think about "how I will start my solo" already on the chorus just before solo etc...If we speak about regular songs. Also...laying a few slow notes at the beginng helps to fill into the mood. Maybe let's form making some example improvisation on one of Your familiar backing tracks (other than te one from chat sessions)

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 9 2013, 10:26 PM

I've never been used to analyzing much first, so I think it's something we can definitely work on. I always just play without thinking too much and sometimes that means trouble. So I'm not good at approaching different chords with the matching licks, mode or similar... or listening to the backing track, if you know what I mean.

How about this one:



Or is it too similar to the one you have used in the chat? I've had a look at the chords and I think it goes something like:

Dm7 Gm7 (or is it a sus2?) C(sus something?) Fmaj7 Dm7 Gm7 Em7b5 A7.

Maybe I've got the 7ths wrong and there are some 9ths in there as well.

If those are the chords, I would like to be able to approach it with playing D aeolian over the first chords and then when the Em7b5 comes in perhaps play locrian #2 from Melodic minor (the 6th mode of melodic minor, so in this case G melodic minor) and D harmonic minor over the A7 chord. But I don't feel quite comfortable doing these things yet, unless I maybe plan it out in advance to only play very slowly.

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 16 2013, 10:24 AM

The way of improvising You mentioned is more a jazz-like thinking way. There are different approaches to improvising. To be honest I would never try to learn all those things at the same time. I usually take one or two licks for some period of playing and try to place them anywere that's possible. I'm trying to where can they fit. After some time I just hear a moments in my head where the lick boomes a good connection. Do You have Your favourite lick from the last practice time? Share it with me and we'll try to make it "my way" I mean fit it to the different places of chord progression and name it's role in there

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 25 2013, 12:02 PM

Maybe we could find another track, cause I'm really not liking this one at all to be honest I'll see if I don't have one on my computer I could use.

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 25 2013, 12:30 PM

Write me some influences, artist You feel most comfortable to improvise over their stuff. I'll search something perfect for the trip

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 25 2013, 05:01 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 25 2013, 01:30 PM)

Write me some influences, artist You feel most comfortable to improvise over their stuff. I'll search something perfect for the trip

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 25 2013, 06:34 PM

What do You think about this one? Good one to practice minor, dorian and harmonic minor modes of the same root nota - A? Also an extra practice of shuffle groove and different thinking about rhythm developement

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 25 2013, 09:19 PM

Oh, that one sounds really nice and right up my alley!

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Oct 25 2013, 09:52 PM

All over the place, and I didn't mean to jam on the whole track, so it gets a bit boring to listen to after a while.

Posted by: Darius Wave Oct 26 2013, 10:33 AM

make short analyzis.

1. What notes are constant and what notes we have to replace at particaler moments? write them down
2. Including some shuffle we need to really feel that triplets in Your playing. You now...You can borrow right hand working from basic blues rhythm 1 - 3 1-3 1-3. Try to buils some short phrases over this rhythm - make those 16th notes triplets without every "2" middle note.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 5 2013, 11:33 PM

Hey Darius,

I was thinking maybe we could talk a bit more about the collab solo. What's good, what's bad etc. Here's a new updated version:

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 15 2013, 06:56 PM

Sorry for the late response Ben. Somehow I missed the notification of Your last response :/ I've seen Your solos in the collab topic. Those are really good one and there is nothing much to complain...aside from individual preferences. The only thing that makes me wonder is Your consciousness of those sweeps run. Do You think You are able to write them down being 100% sure of the rhythm values they are build of ?. One of the very important aspects in my case is the 100% confidence of what I play. I don't suggest You play random notes - to be honest most of Your playing is tasty i rethoughted but at this particular field I fill some lack of that confidence.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Nov 16 2013, 09:56 AM

Hey Darius,

No worries, man. Yeah, the sweeps are something I'm still working on. Notewise I know what I at least meant to play, rythmically it's a bit more uncertain cause it was difficult to fit in, so it's more of a "start on this and end on this"-thing, if that makes sense. The last set of sweeps would probably be something weird like 11-tuplets or something. But I'm working on getting it a bit better into position.

Posted by: Darius Wave Nov 16 2013, 02:02 PM

Great You understand that issue so well I do have similar approach but always try to get back to those "unnamed" values and try to figure out what exaclty I would like to play there. Sometimes removing one note solves the problem...(or adding...whatever) It's like You feel comfortable with a lick that was designed for triplets but somehow the triples are a bit too slow for this track and the 16th notes seems to be already to fast. That's how most of those issue appear. I would go back to those licks and try to experiment. Maybe for example some of the notes quantized to triplets, some other to 16th notes and You can get a brand new, nice lick for Your future playing too

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 8 2014, 03:59 PM

Can we talk a bit about tone, Darius? I know you've mentioned it more than once, but I'm not entirely sure what to do about it when push comes to shove. I'm using Guitar Rig 5. Are you familiar with that?

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 8 2014, 06:14 PM

Yes of course Your tone has too much of unpleasant high mids while listening at higher volume. You roll of a lot of treble so it's focused on the middle but also even if You choose that type of tone You need to find god balance. If You have a huge boost in very narrow range Your guitar will sound too loud on some speaker sets or too quiet...depending on what is the frequency response of the audio gear.

Most of us find pretty easy to get the satisfying tone on Your own set of speakers but...it doesn't mean it sounds similar on other. This is why we have to think of something way further than just the place we listen to the music. Your tone is not that bad...it's just too satin/dark and it has not details in treble end. Let's try to get one that still fit Your taste but is more versatile. At first I need You to post a detailed screen of EVERY SINGLE setting for Your tone, including DAW EQ.

second I need a raw sample of You guitar (line in signal You bring to DAW) and a mixed through plug-ins as well (2 files)

I will analyze this try to suggest You some markers (precise frequencies) where You could try to look for the balance.

Very often it's a war like "decibel for a decibel" - You can away 1dB from one range then add 1dB to other.

Usuall spots are around:

200 Hz - definition for rhythm guitars but for solo can make a bit too much mess

500 Hz - body od the tone and most of root frequencies - essential but if there's too much of it You get muddy and "boxy" tone

1 -2 kHz - here is the sweet spot for guitars

4- 6khz - harsh harsh harsh....but if You cut too much of those You will loose a "breath" as well.

There is also a huuuuge relation to the raw tone of Your amp / amp sim. Some of those have really nasty treble and You can get a good compromise to keep the breath but in the same time...get rid of annoying "pin in the ear"

I think I Your case a best solution might be to find different amp or cab simulation and let yourself lead You to similar tone. This might be the best solution. I will try to suggest some alternatives while I'll have Your raw guitar track.


Do You have an ability to use Poulin plug-ins as well?

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 9 2014, 02:22 PM

I don't know if these are the files you are looking for, but let me know if I've missed anything:

Here is totally clean, no effects:

 clean.mp3 ( 547.49K ) : 143


Here is with Guitar Rig:

 With_guitar_rig.mp3 ( 547.49K ) : 153


And then here is a picture of my setup in Guitar Rig:



I don't use anything else for recording than that. And then Cubase of course, but I don't use anything inside cubase besides guitar rig.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 9 2014, 04:33 PM

I'll check the files while I'll be at home.

Now...WOOOOWWW!!!! ...Man...DO YOU REALLY NEED all this stuff I chain? Or...please tell me it's not all turned on at the same time.

I can guess Twang is a Fender type of sim which has some of the pin's in it tone like a true Fender does. I would start from removing all the compressor, limiter, reverb, delay, booster (green), additional eq.


it a huuuge mess in there

We need to go back to the roots

1. Make a backup of Your current preset
2. Make copy and remove everything besides amp sim and cab sim
3. Imagine Yourself being in the room with real amp.
4. Try to get as close as possible to the type of the tone You want, using only amp selection, amp eq and cab match. At this point don't try to plug any single additional fx. Remember - just like in a real life...switch between different amps and mess with EQ only.

Don't care about the articulation response yet!

FOCUS ONLY ON THE TONE COLOR

Try to get the warmth but keeping a bit of breath in treble as well. We will get to the articulation later.

If Your distortion is based on the tube screamer type (green one) and connected to "fender like amp" this could be the reason. Usually You will get same warmth but way pleasant tone by adding low pass filter in Cubase and using amp simulation based on some marshall type. Don't be aware of the huge amount of treble while working on the amp sim + cab sim only combination. This is how real amps act in the studio. Most of the warmth You get is a post processing (daw eq) why? Because at the mixing stage You could realize You took a bit too much of something that You need later..and You can bring it back.

Raw guitar amplifiers sound pretty bright (even with the tone roll off). Now You sound to me like a person that grew on multiple effect's, solid state drive always fully packed with mids and almost none treble. Now...let's try to find a compromise.

Again.

Amp sim + cab sim...nothing more. Mess only with amp settings as long as necessary until You decide You're not able to get anything better (even if it'still not exactly the tone You would like to have)

we need to start from the roots.

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 9 2014, 05:50 PM

See, I don't really like the amp+cab by itself, and I like the little pinch of distortion that the skreamer adds. Here's an example:

Amp+cab only:

 Amp_cab.mp3 ( 1.07MB ) : 115


Amp+cab+screamer:

 Amp_cab_skreamer.mp3 ( 1.07MB ) : 111


+delay:

 Amp_cab_skreamer_delay.mp3 ( 1.07MB ) : 109


Maybe I could do without the other stuff in my setup, chorus thing doesn't seem to add anything at the moment that I need. It seemed that I got more room for articulation when getting rid of some stuff. I don't know which it was that made articulation less varied.

But anyway, above is some examples cut more to the bone.


Oh, and one more thing: I don't know anything about EQ at all, so the EQ I had added was just guess work all the way through.

And furthermore (I keep forgetting things!) I usually play with my headphones (Sennheiser 380 Pro) on, and the sound is hugely different from with my headphones on and then with my speakers, which aren't the highest quality. So usually what sounds good on my speakers sound crap on my headphones and vice versa.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 9 2014, 07:14 PM

Any type of compression (limiter, maximizer, compressor etc) changes the articulation. Distortion devices also compress the tone. This is why booster makes amps easy play same with compressors but....there is the second side...the bad side. People get used to "easy to play" tone but once going to play live at high volume all those compressors and boosters will make Your amp give a lot of noise and easily getting into feedback.

Very first kick in the a$$ most of players get in their life is the very first challenge with real amp distortion with no fx. Now most of them say "that amp doesn't sound good". Unfortunately usually the problem is not the amp but the playing itself.

We are living in the very hard times where people are getting so used to simulations and digital distortions that they can't handle real amp in lve playing situations. Before we go further You have to make some choices of who do You wan to be in the future.

Some of players are able to shred on the high gain or with booster/compressor while they can't handle natural distortion of amps...this is because if You pick softly, natural distortion will translate things just the way they are...even if the gain is a bit higher. This is the essence of word "dynamics". But everytime You plug a distortion or compressor in front of the amps distortion You will loose a lot of dynamics.

Now the real challenge is to be able to play on the drive that gives You ability to play soft as well as agressive with good translation. It will demand much more hard work from You but it gives a lot of profits. One of those is You can sound like "You" no matter what are You plugged to.


From those raw files I can tell You have a good punch in Your right hands and it it's a big shame to loose all those dynamics I can hear now but...more advanced licks will demand much more on the lower gain and this is the true challenge and playing development. Hard licks will be much harder to play and every single mistake will be unmasked. That's the cost of the truth

I'm not saying the amp + cab tone is ok but for me it already says a lot about Your playing - I a good way ALWAYS before any EQ, compressions etc it's best to find the amp. Try to show me different amp type from guitar rig...not the twang. Try to find amp with higher gain. You will notice better dynamics response anyway...but...we'll go back to the articulation thing as well.

I think You starting point is bad - too much treble cut. Buy taking away too much treble You are also taking some good and needed frequencies in the high midrange. Using Low Pass Filter gives absolutely different effect - it cuts the treble at some point but it's sor of linear cut so...some of those will not be removed completely...just a 50% less.

Even if You feel there is a bit too much treble when You listen to guitar as a solo track ,remember...in the mix this treble can hide under overhads, snare etc and it will leave only some tasty breath.

If You have a cubase SX3 try to plug "Q filter" on the insterts (end of the signal chain - after the cab simulation), press "cut" button on the right - below "high" word. You will see a point. Grab it and place on th 6.00 Hz (6 kHz). IT's a good strating point for distorted guitars. You can move this point right and left until You feel good balance. It's best to start from 12 o'clock on Your amp EQ knobs.

I know what kind of the tone You like....but as I said - it loses a lot of dynamics and details. Let's try to mess with different amp in the guitar rig


Also...reference recordings are mastered. You have to keep distance. some of those guitars from professional recordings really had some unpleasant frequencies while listening to a guitar solo....but those were gone in the mix or compressed on mastering...this is why we often feel that those professional recordings are soo smooth. I have similar headphones - yes they are god to verify unpleasant frequencies...but...here's the surprise... You don't have to cut that much treble to get rid of them. They are in the high mid range. This is why You have to cut so much to get pleasant tone...but...as mentioned...You loose the details as well.


Also...Never refer to how You hear reall amp in position other than being in front of the speaker at ears height.

Guitar players are used to listen to the amps that are not playing exactly towards their ears...like small combo on the floor or a huge cabinet but...too close behind Your back.

This way people create a distorted image of how the real amp sounds. And this causes Your need to warm-up the tone even way to much. Now amp simulation work like the amp in a studio so the ear (microphone) is right in front and next to the speaker. And this is the tone You work with eq to fit the mix!

Try different amp, set the EQ to 12 o 'clock (default eq) Send me the audio and the screen of new set-up.

We need to get good raw tone...good is equal to good for further processing, good for the mix...not necessary perfect for itself

then we could go to Low Pass Filtering...You will feel release then

Wchich cubase do You own? SX or never?

Also You have to consider that

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 11 2014, 07:21 PM

Long posts scare me!

The thing with Guitar Rig is that there isn't really any amp+cab that I like the sound of on their own. They all sound terrible without some compressor and other stuff. It took me quite a while to get the tone I have now, which I quite like, but you've been mentioning some things on the collabs, which I thought I might try to correct.

I have Cubase 5, and I couldn't seem to find anything saying Q filter. Maybe it's called something else now.

I'd like to have a tone that allows for good dynamic playing, soft playing sounded less distorted and harder punches sounded more distorted if that makes sense. My current tone is a bit flat in that regard, but getting rid of some of the effects allowed for a bit more room for dynamics.

Also, adding the compressor to my tone seems to allow for greater sustain on notes, which I quite like.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 11 2014, 10:05 PM

I get You. What You mean is exactly the meaning of word "dynamics". As for Cubase newer versions had no Q but they had high pass and low pass option in the track EQ. I know I'm a bit stubborn but if You will try to understand my purpose, You will have less problems working with real amps live.

First thing is to deal with the natural tone of the amp and that it's not perfect.

Second thing is to understand what sound good in the mix and what to leave for the post processing stage (Low Pass Filter and compression for example)

Sorry for being 100% true but I will write this because I really believe in Your talent. You current tone takes a way at least 50% of emotions You give in Your playing. This tone is not good. It's too much dried out of the breath. New things (getting rid of old habbits) is always painfull but it will profit in the future.

If You are not able to switch to anything else then the fender amps simulation I saw on Your guitar rig screens then we need to find different way.

I have a proposition but first I have to know if You are able to use Poulin plug-ins? I mean...do You know how to launch LePou amps sims and impulse loaders?

You could send me Your guitar recorded directly line-in so I could try to propose You some tone preset and see how do You feel about it?

I can also help You to launch Poulin and cab sim

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 12 2014, 01:04 PM

I'm glad you believe in my talent, and I appreciate you taking the time to write these posts!

I guess I could try lePou plugins. I have never tried them before and don't know how they work, but I'm willing to give it a go. I don't have any money at the moment though!

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 12 2014, 01:43 PM

I have tried downloading LePou plugins now, as I saw they were free, but I can't get the amps to show up in Cubase. Only the cab. I have placed them within the VST folder, but they don't show anywhere inside Cubase.

They should show up on Inserts, like the cab does, but nope, nothing.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 12 2014, 02:22 PM

Recheck the Vst folders in Cubase. There might be a few reasons. I recommend the 32 bit versions. 64 bit are a bit too much PC memory and CPU consuming for direct monitor options. Also....Cubase usues a few different path's like VSTPlugins in Program Files and also C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VSTPlugins

First of all You have to make sure:
1. Is Your operating system 32 or 64 bit
2. Is Your DAW 32 or 64 bit
3. Is Your downloaded LePou's 32 or 64 bit...and are those for mac or for windows
4. Did You extract the rar/ zip files before copying

When I have similar problems I usually copy one .dll file (lextac for example) and add 01 , 02 ,03 to each copy name. Then I copy each file to every possible path cubase could use. Then I open Cubase and go to "Plug-in information" and click both options "update" + update plug-in list" (or similar). There are also vst plug-ins paths listed.

When add the fx to the track insert You will see lextac01 or lextac 02 or lextac 03. This way You will verify the path from where the plug-in was taken.

Make sure to copy to Prgram files (x86) if You have 32 bit plug-ins


Try those tips and let me know

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 12 2014, 02:40 PM

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jan 12 2014, 02:22 PM)

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 12 2014, 03:07 PM

I use a lot of different impulses but for the warm tone usually catharsis 1on_pres5 work best. It's one of the most popular and liked impulse. Here You go. Please send me some raw file as soon as possible so I can prepare some proposition before You plug to many things at the same time while doing tests


Anyway...when You load and impulse first make sure everything in the impulse loader is set to default ...I man mix = 100% and no low or high cut. You can search for kefir as well. It's more simple and takes less cpu.


Here's the impulse:  1on_pres5.wav ( 1.39K ) : 121

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 12 2014, 03:08 PM

Also, here's a raw file for you to suggest a preset with.

 Raw_for_Dar.mp3 ( 1.75MB ) : 122

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 12 2014, 04:00 PM

I tried and to be honest I think You could be satisfied with the tone even without too much tweaking.

I used HyBrit, Kefir, Cathrasis 1on_pres5 and...Ts808 booster for the moments of some faster runs. You can keep that on or off comparing to what kind of playing You want at the moment

Here are some pics and Kefir...and ts808 dll.

You can use as much of ts808 gain,, vol and treble amount to get comfortable articulation response.




 TSE808v2.0.zip ( 2.26MB ) : 129




here is also my proposition of cubase EQ

You can mess with the point number 4 (left right) until You'll be satisfied with treble cut. Make sure You switch poin t 4 eq to "low pass" mode ...adn point 1 eq to "high pass" mode

For my personall taste I would not use point 4 EQ (low pass with this particular impulse) It's already very warm. Some of the treble might sound fizzy when You listen to guitar only. But it will disappear in the mix with other instruments and add great breath to Your dynamics. The tone I suggested i based on Your previous tone. Personally I like brighter tones because they give more contrast between soft and hard strokes

take a listen on Daniele Gottardo tone (I love this song BTW):



Of course it's the neck pickup (You can hear how sharp the tone becomes once he get to bridge position. But this is the cost of having wider dynamics response

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 12 2014, 08:17 PM

This is what I'm getting at the moment, trying somewhat to get the settings you've described:

 Hybrit_kefir_cab.mp3 ( 625.99K ) : 117


Oh, and then here is a bit altered with Guitar rig:

 Guitar_Rig.mp3 ( 625.99K ) : 128


Also, what do you suggest for delay?

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 12 2014, 08:38 PM

somehow i can't download...something wrong with the files

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 12 2014, 08:45 PM

They should work now.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 12 2014, 08:47 PM

Cubase has a very good double delay / stereo delay plug in


1. Track / Add track / FX channel
2. Go to this FX channel and add doubledelay (stereo delay) to first insert slot
3. Set mix to 100%, Left delay time - 360 ms, right = 500 ms. Feedback is a matter of song...You will set this one as You like...but...remember to TURN OFF the sync with project tempo. We want that delay to make space...not a precise echo repeater
4. Go back to the guitar track. Click on first "send" slot and find the fx track just added. By increasing the send level You will add more delay to the guitar.


Guitar trrack should be mono (guitar is a mono instrument) amp, cab and stomp box fx work best while being in the instert section of guitar track. Now FX like chorus stereo delay and reverb usually works best if they are FX channel - stereo channel.

Maybe this is not exactly delay focused but It could guide You a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yjnVqjufs0

As for the tone try to record a sample with backing track. I like that tone much better. We only need to add reverb / delay to make it alive

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 12 2014, 09:00 PM

My computer just died. Hoping I can fix it. It doesn't want to start properly now. Will record something maybe later or tomorrow.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 12 2014, 09:38 PM

Ok. Just let me know. I hope it's nothing serious :/

Posted by: Caelumamittendum Jan 15 2014, 03:26 PM

I can't get the delay to work now. Everything else is fine, but as soon as I try and add the delay, if I set mix to 100% I hear what I play 2 seconds after I've played it. Like there's latency, which there shouldn't be. And in general the delay I'm getting sounds like somewhat pulling a cat's tail.

Posted by: Darius Wave Jan 15 2014, 11:22 PM

post a screen of Your FX channel settings and Your guitar track settings.

Delay should be turned on with the special "fx track". You should only use send slots and send only a small amount of signal to the delay track. It sounds like You hear only the delay. This could happen if:

1. You make too much volume on send slot for delay fx track

2. You use delay in guitar track insert section