Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Developing Speed
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 01:48 PM
Dear friends,
I had a discussion with few of my students recently about developing speed, and I just want to share my thoughts on this subject with you guys as well 
Practicing at slow speed and articulate is definitely a good way to prevent playing sloppy, - but that in itself won’t make you play fast unless you know what it’s like to play fast.
You must get in the feel of what it’s like to play fast before you can do it, because it’s a whole different thing mentally!
So every once in a while, put the metronome at 300 bpm (or whatever) even if you know you’ll probably miss 80% of the notes, but do the best you can though. This will give you an idea of what it’s like to play that fast (even if it doesn't sound very good), and you’ll get a much clearer picture of what you will need to learn to do with your fingers.
This in combination with practicing articulate and slow is the best way I know to get fast results.
Now, lets hear your thoughts on this!
Feel free to agree or to disagree of course
Posted by: Pizzoaro Aug 7 2008, 01:53 PM
Very well said!
I had problems with speed, and what i did was exactly that. Lets say theres a solo in 100 bpm i cant do, i set the metronome at 300 bpm and try that a few times, and when i get down to 100 bpm again, its like and easy solo!
so i think pushing yourself way too long will actually help! Did with me thoguh 
Posted by: Muris Varajic Aug 7 2008, 01:53 PM
Totally agree Marcus!
It is completely another feel
and it's good to try some faster stuff,
even just right hand picking,or typing
with fretting hand's fingers on the fretboard.
Great topic.
Posted by: wollace03 Aug 7 2008, 01:56 PM
actually, often when i learn a new solo or lick i try it at a high speed, which makes me feel very bad, cause i am not able to play it correct. but you are right it helps focus and it gives you a feeling where you wanna go. its just hard to see how far you are away from the original tempo....and you may not give up no matter how bad it sounds.
but as you said the point is, to get a feeling for the goal...
puhhh... it is hard work.. 
Posted by: Rooks Aug 7 2008, 02:03 PM
I am pretty much a beginner, but I think my approach applies at many levels.
At first, I practice a piece slow steady and trying to get it clean, when I have done that for a while; I'ts not perfect, even at slow speed .. But then I pick up the pace and play the whole thing at 120-140 bpm maybe .. Afterwards you know how to practice it slow, so it sounds good when you pick up the pace.
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 02:07 PM
I understand that. But you could prepare yourself and just say "ok, now I'm going to try it at 300 bpm. I know it will sound terrible, but that's ok. What's important is that I get into the feel of playing it at this speed".
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Aug 7 2008, 02:11 PM
Very interesting topic!
I agree that if you don't have your mind set on speed you will never get to those Rusty Cooley speeds.
However - if you are happy with getting up to Eric Johnson speed - then I wonder if "practicing at slow speed and articulate" for years and years perhaps might actually do the trick (of course you need to somewhat think of not doing enormous hand motions).
I can't tell though - because I definitely had my mind set on speed when starting out. Now my practicing focuses on fixing tone-flaws that comes from me having pushed the speed too much.
Also I find that even though my maximum speed has decreased the last years - I think my speed playing might sound faster because I am getting more articulate. And that's an interesting phenomenon!
edit - I think Paul Gilbert is an example of a guitarist who sounds "alot faster than he is" because his picking is so extremely aggressive and articulate! (I love his picking!)
Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Aug 7 2008, 02:15 PM
Very well put, playing fast is a whole another story from playing slow and articulate of course
But... i don't have 300 bpm on my metronome, only 240 
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 02:21 PM
At first, I practice a piece slow steady and trying to get it clean, when I have done that for a while; I'ts not perfect, even at slow speed .. But then I pick up the pace and play the whole thing at 120-140 bpm maybe .. Afterwards you know how to practice it slow, so it sounds good when you pick up the pace.
Great! Thanks for the input!
Posted by: Iluha Aug 7 2008, 02:24 PM
I completly agree with what you said Marcus, can't really add anything on the subject
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 02:30 PM
Yes, If one is happy with Eric Johnson speed then there's no need to do this.
But for those who want to play fast my idea was that we should still continue practicing slow. But then occationaly go for a really fast bpm
Posted by: Smurkas Aug 7 2008, 02:54 PM
That's some great advice Marcus! About two years ago I hit a barrier speed wise that I just couldn't get past. Everything I had read said that in order to pass that barrier I should practice slow and articulate and work my way up but it just wasn't working. It felt like no matter what I did, my playing just fell apart when I reached that magical barrier. When I was about to give up I stumbled on this http://www.tomhess.net/Articles/HowToPracticeForMaximumSpeedPart2.aspx by Tom Hess which gives a more detailed account and a very structured way to do just what you suggest.
I took two of the things I was currently practising and put them through the grinder and I got results really fast. Sure I had to do clean up to make sure that I wasn't playing sloppy but I had finally broken that barrier and opened up my playing considerably. One thing I noticed when I did the exercise the first few times was that even though I could physically play it, my psychological perception of what I was playing and the part of the brain that "plans ahead" were having real trouble keeping pace with what my fingers were doing.
I think that the psychological aspect of playing is discussed way to little (maybe because I'm a psychologist ), many books and such that I have read don't talk about this at all. Tom Hess article is the first I have read that basically says that maybe there's nothing wrong with your playing on a physical level but your mind needs to catch up.
Posted by: Gus Aug 7 2008, 03:00 PM
Some time ago, someone posted a thread about a software to help on speed.
The curve I saw on the software is exactly what you explained in words, Marcus.
A practice session should go over the comfortable speed, up to totally impossible speed and then slowly down. When going down on speed it will look much easier then when increasing it.... 
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 03:09 PM
I took two of the things I was currently practising and put them through the grinder and I got results really fast. Sure I had to do clean up to make sure that I wasn't playing sloppy but I had finally broken that barrier and opened up my playing considerably. One thing I noticed when I did the exercise the first few times was that even though I could physically play it, my psychological perception of what I was playing and the part of the brain that "plans ahead" were having real trouble keeping pace with what my fingers were doing.
I think that the psychological aspect of playing is discussed way to little (maybe because I'm a psychologist
), many books and such that I have read don't talk about this at all. Tom Hess article is the first I have read that basically says that maybe there's nothing wrong with your playing on a physical level but your mind needs to catch up.Thank for your great input Smurkas, and for the link to that article.
I also think that the psychological aspect is mentioned way too little in the guitar world. But I find it very interesting!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Aug 7 2008, 03:16 PM
I think I do agree, though I needed to think a bit.
I do think that to develop proper speed and good technique while playing 16th notes at 200 bpm, you need to practice a lot at say... 100 bpm, to eliminate all flaws and work your way up.
Petrucci has a similar thing in his Rock Discipline, where he explains something about playing above your level (E.g. playing 216 bpm when you can only manage 180 bpm and just go kill yourself with that 216 bpm.)
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 03:26 PM
Yes, absolutely!
I want to point out that the main part of the practicing should be at slower speeds, as your example above.
But we could, every now and then, try to go for a speed that's way beyond our level.
Posted by: seagull Aug 7 2008, 03:28 PM
Haha, this is odd! 
I do the same thing: Every time, Muris for instance, drops the bomb with a jaw-breaking solo with 32th triplets at 150 bpm, I go for it and do my best, even though I fail miserably. But I always think of the instructional video "Rock Discipline" by John Petrucci (the progfather 
) in which he said that one should try something they can't do at a reasonable speed, at insane speeds instead. And I quote: "Just go up to 200 bpm and kill yourself. Then when you go back to about 130 bpm, it will seem like it's much easier because you've just been at 200 bpm."
Here's the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tOfDxUlxK0&feature=related
Couldn't find the real clip, but the above clip is right after he's said it.
So go ahead! KILL YOURSELF!
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Aug 7 2008, 03:28 PM
I want to point out that the main part of the practicing should be at slower speeds, as your example above.
But we could, every now and then, try to go for a speed that's way beyond our level.
Indeed. So that would mean that we GMC students are to play at 180 bpm, where as you instructors play at 400 bpm?
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 03:43 PM
Hehe... something like that
Well no, I think 180 bpm is fast enough, for me anyways
Posted by: Marcus Siepen Aug 7 2008, 03:59 PM
I absolutely agree qith you Marcus. Actually I use speed runs to warm up for shows sometimes. After warming up normally I play through some more difficult or fast parts of songs that are on the setlist, but I try to play them faster than they actually are, like 20-30% faster. Then when we play the songs on stage later the real speed is much more comfortable to play
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Aug 7 2008, 04:03 PM
But for those who want to play fast my idea was that we should still continue practicing slow. But then occationaly go for a really fast bpm
Yes that is a really interesting way of practicing - I haven't really applied that before. I am going to try it !
Posted by: Smells Aug 7 2008, 04:10 PM
I find that breaking out of the mould and trying to play way faster than is achievable really helpful from time to time, after a few (failed) attempts at a much higher speed I go back to a comfortable speed and find it kind of slow, which in turn then seems to make it a whole lot easier to play, I find I can build up speed on certain licks a lot quicker doing it this way.
Posted by: fkalich Aug 7 2008, 05:36 PM
I agree that if you don't have your mind set on speed you will never get to those Rusty Cooley speeds.
However - if you are happy with getting up to Eric Johnson speed - then I wonder if "practicing at slow speed and articulate" for years and years perhaps might actually do the trick (of course you need to somewhat think of not doing enormous hand motions).
I can't tell though - because I definitely had my mind set on speed when starting out. Now my practicing focuses on fixing tone-flaws that comes from me having pushed the speed too much.
Also I find that even though my maximum speed has decreased the last years - I think my speed playing might sound faster because I am getting more articulate. And that's an interesting phenomenon!
edit - I think Paul Gilbert is an example of a guitarist who sounds "alot faster than he is" because his picking is so extremely aggressive and articulate! (I love his picking!)
Took me over a year and a half to understand this. I once timed Gilbert btw, and yes, he was playing at a slower pace than it sounded like, because great quality sounds fast, even when not played all that fast.
I uploaded a research paper awhile back the explained how the brain establishes the ability to play music. What Kris says is supported by that, what some others have said is not. In a nutshell, your brain establishes neurologically what you put into it, if you play crappy, you establish a crappy network of neural receptors. No, you don't play crappy and somehow back into quality that way. You may get fast, but your play quality will be necessarily compromised. And you will have to undo the damage. That is, reestablish a quality network of neural receptors, and remove the crappy one you put in place. And that will be done as Kris says, playing at high quality, and only pushing to the extent where you can maintain that.
Or I guess you can just work on your pod settings, and the backing track, who will know the difference if you get that right? Sort of like a brunette dying here hair blond, or plastic surgery. Or I could stick a sock in my pants, I had a nephew who did that.
Posted by: Déjà vu Aug 7 2008, 05:55 PM
I heard Shawn Lane say something like this a while ago... That certainly helped me a lot! This helps me reconsider that concept again! Thanks!
Posted by: fkalich Aug 7 2008, 05:57 PM
Marcus adds things that nobody here add to the site. You can learn a lot from Marcus. I don't agree on this one.
I think one should play fast, but find things that you can play fast that where you are technically capable of doing so and still maintaining quality.
I mean, you need to learn to tremolo pick well, and to move your hands quickly. And you can really zip out those easy 3 note per string AP runs. But technically difficult stuff, nope, been there, done that. Not going back.
Posted by: Kristofer Dahl Aug 7 2008, 05:58 PM
@fkalich Yes that is the the idea! But I think Marcus would recommend the exact same way of doing it - but the idea is to try once in a while with the too-fast tempo to give the hand/body/brain an impression of what the goal is!
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 06:11 PM
Yes, that's what I mean!
It's not about only practicing at faster speeds. Definitely not!
Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Aug 7 2008, 06:17 PM
This is interesting:
I dont know if I agree or disagree.
However, I feel like both ways are efficient in there own way and Im almost postive that as much precise and slow practice that Eric Johnson did to get where he is today, there must have been some times when he pushed himself in some way and "Raised the Bar" as Marcus mentioned in the first post.
As for most Shredders, the technique and speed development seems pretty the same.
Slow and Steady wins the race.
Or does it ? 
Posted by: fkalich Aug 7 2008, 06:30 PM
probably so. forum posts can be a bit sloppy, at least mine can. probably we pretty much agree.
Posted by: Fsgdjv Aug 7 2008, 06:36 PM
This is actually interesting. I've basically never pushed speed, and on the other hand, I play really slow aswell. Allthough, I remember one evening where I had been whining about how slow I was playing. And then, I got a great suggestion from our allmighty mr France (Gen). He just told me to try to play it faster, and not really think about being completely relaxed and just go for it. I had been struggling with 125 bpm sixteenth notes that day, I raised the speed on the metronome to 160 bm and played that relatively clean. So yeah, I think playing crazy fast once in a while can be great, and I should probably do it more often, I haven't donce it since then and I'm still at waaaaaay slower speeds than sexteenth notes at 160, but I definetly think there's a point in doing this.
Posted by: fkalich Aug 7 2008, 06:37 PM
It's not about only practicing at faster speeds. Definitely not!
after many many too many college courses, I can say this, it is easy for Teachers to forget some times how dopey students can be. I was just reminding you of that.
You see a lot of guys upload things, and say two things. (1) I apologize for not being fast enough. (2) I apologize for the mistakes.
I think when I see that "slow down". For example, take your etude 1. Beautiful piece. But that opening and the ending, I can only play great quality at about 100. I can get thought it at 120, but not good quality. Other parts I can go faster at good quality. But the whole piece, not more than 100. The weakest link determines it. If I go faster, it is on the parts that I can do that on, or I break the difficult part into smaller pieces and go faster on the little pieces faster. I definitely push speed, but I judiciously find places where I can do that. And it sounds like you concur.
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 06:44 PM
It's perfectly ok fkalich, you don't have to apologize. You just put some spice on this thread, that's all
Thanks for the comment on the etude, btw
Posted by: Henry Dietzel Aug 7 2008, 06:46 PM
First off awesome topic Marcus. I have been battling through tendonitis and unfotunately I think it's now coming back worse. Even before this happened I got to a point like Smurkas and couldn't break that magical barrier. When trying to play anything fast it was not only difficult on my hands but difficult on my brain to increase speed and think ahead. Everything I have read from this thread has been extremely helpful in preparing for this challenge.
Also, thanks Smurkas for the article link. I am just about to read through it now.
Posted by: Jeff Aug 7 2008, 06:49 PM
OH H*LL YEAH MAN! Sign me up for EJ speed! Heck, I'll take 1/2 EJ Speed and leave with a sh*t eating grin! Good advice Marcus. I'll set my metronome to 40 BPM which would be twice my speed!
I'll be pushing Vai territory by the time I finish lunch.-J
Posted by: Oxac Aug 7 2008, 07:04 PM
everywhere I look I find this misconception. There's Speed and there's accuracy. Speed is in your physique, how strong your muscles are etc. That can't be achieved by playing slow. Though accuracy can.
Playing insanely fast increased your strength and therefore your maximum capability, playing slow on the other hand raise your minimum level of playing.
Posted by: coffeeman Aug 7 2008, 07:16 PM
This is an aswesome advice Marcus , I've been aplaying this for a while now, and I think is very important to tell zour brain where you want to go, if you don't know how fast you want play how are you going to make it someday, Im not saying zou shoud practice at speeds where you cant play just show your brain every once in a while where you want to go.
Posted by: TheOldOnes Aug 7 2008, 07:32 PM
Coincidently, I have been putting this to the test in the last week because I was stalling in some lessons where I getting frustrated with the way I was playing partciularly with my tone and timing - so I jacked up those lesson by about 20% and found I had to really up my concentration to play them decently. Then, going back to my more confortable speeds, I felt much more relaxed and in tune with the music rather than focusing on playing - consequently, my tone and timing improved immensely.
Posted by: leedbreak Aug 7 2008, 09:16 PM
Another great topic at GMC, I love this place. Truth be known I got my head bit of by an instructor here, that is not here now, I won’t say any names. But he always said it was a waste of time to try to play fast before you work up click by click all the way up, taking at least 5 years to do so.
I am finding there is some truth in this but you must always push yourself to go faster. If faster is your goal. I think I used the word “force” and he got on me for that too, but that is the key.
I recently purchase Guitar speed trainer and am finding it to be the best tool I have ever had for my fast technique. I took the time to enter some parts of my favorite GMC lessons, which took awhile. But now that they are in there I can set the speed just below my break point. You can set the speed curve to take you just past your break point and then back down. The coming back down helps me more than going up did. Since I am building muscles by that time. It is like being on you third set of ten reps at the gym. If you have ever done that it sure feels great.
Every GMC lesson that I am using GST on are up at least 7 BPM since Monday and my basic sweeping is up by 20 or more. It is a revelation for me.
Unlike GP5’s speed trainer you can set this curve to go up and back down or have it hold at any speed you would like. The most important part is you can tell what speed you are currently at just by looking at the screen. You can not do that using GP5 speed trainer, I always hated that.
Long before I found this program I used the terms walking verses running. I have posted many times in the forum about it, saying that fast picking and slow picking are not the same movement. Just as walking and running are different. They mention that in the GST lesson plan.
But you do need many hours of walking before you can run, And if you can not walk perfectly then you can't run either.
Now, I am sure we are all sarcastic saying take it from 100 to 300 if 100 is your top speed. But I do believe you have to attempt 105 - 110 even 120 to ever go faster than the 100.
GL All
The curve I saw on the software is exactly what you explained in words, Marcus.
A practice session should go over the comfortable speed, up to totally impossible speed and then slowly down. When going down on speed it will look much easier then when increasing it....
http://www.guitarspeed.com/
Posted by: superize Aug 7 2008, 09:53 PM
Some great tips here guys......
I have tried a few time play up to a tempo i cant play good and when i get back to comfortble speed it feels kinda slow.... I havent used this as much but i will certenly try this more often.
Posted by: Bogdan Radovic Aug 7 2008, 10:00 PM
Excellent approach Marcus! Its important to try things even if can't play them right at that time...That way you will know what is that effort like.
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 7 2008, 10:44 PM
Great!
A quick google search led me to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhkbSBxPYcU. Shawn talks about how he developed speed, and it's pretty much the same way we talk about here. Cool
Posted by: Ian Bushell Aug 8 2008, 12:12 AM
I agree bursting the speed in practice and before shows works great.
I also found what works well is Troy stetina's approach to it:
1.Start really slow
2.Move the metronome up 2 units at a time until you reach a comfortable speed
3.Push yourself two units faster, then slow back down one, over and over
4.When you reach top speed, slow down 20 BPM or so and repeat step 3
It still takes a while to reach the tempo but it's thourough!
I also read in a magazine that Vai does exercises that are really awkward
this makes the normal stuff easier to play!(VAI PLAYS NORMAL STUFF HAHAHA ) Check his 10 hour work out. Some awkward ones in there!
Posted by: Jeff Aug 8 2008, 01:41 AM
http://www.guitarspeed.com/
Thanks leedbreak. This looks very cool. I think I might get it!
Posted by: Enucleation Aug 8 2008, 02:51 AM
Ok this is going to sound SOOOO lame. But I remember being like 12 years old I had gotten my first piece o' crap First Act guitar. I would turn on music and just pretend to rock out to it (gah I was young and lame!) but really...I do believe it helped me with my speed...
I wouldn't suggest doing this though as Marcus's method seems to be the same and you might keep your dignity
Posted by: kjutte Aug 8 2008, 06:13 AM
Tony Mac and petrucci suggests you sit down and take one step at a time, whilst shawn lane suggest as marcus, play fast, and the misses will reduce eventually.
Speed ain't just about syncronization, it's immensely also about left/righthand stamina, so I guess I'll have to agree with shawn too.
A quick google search led me to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhkbSBxPYcU. Shawn talks about how he developed speed, and it's pretty much the same way we talk about here. Cool
Yeah, you saw it too...
Shawn wasn't much of an ordinary man though.
Posted by: John In Socal Aug 8 2008, 06:21 AM
petrucci mentioned something like this in one of his videos, going past where you can actually play just to get the feel and then coming back down to a tempo you can play clean. You have to push it at some point to break through whatever speed barrier you are at.
Another thing I would mention that is not discussed much but really helped me. I have been playing around 2 years and was trying to develop more speed but I hit a barrier at around 150 BPM with 16th notes using any pattern. And I just couldn't get past that and keep tempo with the metronome. As it turns out I was playing with tension in my picking arm and not really realizing it. It wasn't massive tension, but just enough to hold me back. My guitar instructor didn't really notice or say anytbing about it, I guess it's hard to see tension unless it's extreme. Once I learned to really relax and play without tension all the sudden I could tremo pick or do simple patterns up to 180 BPM and tremlo at 200 BPM for 16th notes. You often hear people say "take it slow", "just practice" etc. But practicing the wrong way will not get you anywhere, I practiced with tension and simply got nowhere for quite a while. So definately try relaxing and work on tremelo picking as well as patterns to see what your max picking rate is. Obviously if you can only tremelo pick at 180 BPM you won't be able to do any patterns past that speed limit of your tremlo picking speed.
Posted by: kjutte Aug 8 2008, 06:23 AM
Another thing I would mention that is not discussed much but really helped me. I have been playing around 2 years and was trying to develop more speed but I hit a barrier at around 150 BPM with 16th notes using any pattern. And I just couldn't get past that and keep tempo with the metronome. As it turns out I was playing with tension in my picking arm and not really realizing it. It wasn't massive tension, but just enough to hold me back. My guitar instructor didn't really notice or say anytbing about it, I guess it's hard to see tension unless it's extreme. Once I learned to really relax and play without tension all the sudden I could tremo pick or do simple patterns up to 180 BPM and tremlo at 200 BPM for 16th notes. You often hear people say "take it slow", "just practice" etc. But practicing the wrong way will not get you anywhere, I practiced with tension and simply got nowhere for quite a while. So definately try relaxing and work on tremelo picking as well as patterns to see what your max picking rate is. Obviously if you can only tremelo pick at 180 BPM you won't be able to do any patterns past that speed limit of your tremlo picking speed.
Well you should pick with your wrist, not arm
Posted by: Daniel Robinson Aug 8 2008, 07:21 AM
I think developing speed is all of the things mentioned in this thread.
Playing cleanly, playing beyond your limits sometimes. Also a stamina issue. For me i do speed drills kinda like Shawn Lane, i dont do huge groupings like he does and bounce all over the neck, but i will trem pick while doing 4 or 5 note licks at 200 BPM, i find if i do this everyday i notice an improvement in the articulation while playing slower.
I think the reason for this is because when you play really fast you have to really focus on accuracy of where your finger meets the string. Generally when you are blazing on the fretboard its very difficult to always fret a note in exactly the same spot when your finger meets the string.
When you slow it back down you arent thinking as hard about where your finger meets the string and where on the fret you hit the note.
Accuracy plays a huge role in speed, And i am referring to the actual fretting of the note. Not hand syncronization, or articulation. If you can train yourself to always..or as much as possible make sure your finger contacts the string at almost the same point, and hitting the fret in the same point, you will find speed increases because of accuracy.
One other thing i will say again from one of my other posts on this topic. Your gear plays a part too...if your guitar is difficult to play...or even semi-difficult to play you are going to find certain speed barriers are going to be very hard to cross. It would happen to even pro players.
I don't remember what the song was or where it was filmed but there is a vid of Joe Satriani playing one of his songs, but he is using someones "off the rack" low end guitar....about mid way thru he is missing notes and there is alot of sloppiness. After the song ended he looked at the guitar, and than said "Man, that was painful on this guitar!."
Its something to think about.
Daniel
Posted by: John In Socal Aug 8 2008, 08:12 AM
yes pick with your wrist but without tension in your arm, a tense arm makes picking fast difficult even if using the wrist. At least it was for me, some can pick fast with tension but it wasn't working for me. Some players (even some famous shredders) also can pick extremely fast and accuratley with the arm instead of the wrist so there is no one perfect way to pick that everybody must follow, but in general most seem to use the wrist and do it relaxed instead of having tension so that's a good place to start.
You might want to try low action on your guitar too if it's set for high action it may make learning to pick fast more difficult.
Posted by: fkalich Aug 8 2008, 08:16 AM
So far, Kris has made sense in this thread.
Like my mother told me, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Thanks Kris for making that possible!
Posted by: stickyfingers Aug 8 2008, 08:27 AM
great topic!
i used hit my speed barrier at about 130 bpm the my playing became sloppy. one day i tried my exercise at 16th notes / 160bpm. first i hit a single note in 16th feel to get used to the tempo then i switched strings every full beat to practice the transition. that gave me the confidence that this exercise is doable at that speed and that i only had to synchronize my left had to my picking. half an hour later i could do that exercise at 160bpm - still a bit sloppy (hitting open strings during transition etc.), but ok so far.
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Aug 8 2008, 09:10 AM
Thank you all for your posts!
It's very interesting and uplifting reading your stories and ideas. Keep 'em coming
I love that part! It's a great comparison.
Thank you leedbreak!
Posted by: RIP Dime Aug 8 2008, 09:17 AM
Again, great post Marcus, I believe you are right here, going past your limit a little bit helps a ton. I've forgotten to do this recently, so thanks for reminding me, and explaining it. I find without pushing myself a little I don't improve my speed very quickly.
For me it works like this:
Practicing slow and controlled improves my tone and control.
Pushing yourself, then bringing it down improves my speed and stamina.
I think these are just two ways of practicing, I like both, and they work well, so a practice session with both of those aspects really helps my speedy stuff.
I think everyone should give both ways of practicing a shot, they both work wonders.
Posted by: fkalich Aug 8 2008, 11:42 AM
A quick google search led me to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhkbSBxPYcU. Shawn talks about how he developed speed, and it's pretty much the same way we talk about here. Cool
Paul Gilbert sees it more the way I do.
http://www.intimateaudio.com/psycho_licks.gilbert.html
I did the routine most of you are pushing. Been there, done that, not going back. If I walk under a grove of trees filled with starlings, and they poop on my head for a year and a half, well it should not have taken me a year and a half to learn to stay away from those trees. But better late than never.
My ideal of play is more the type of play that has been traditionally expected of a concert violist or pianist, not some shredder fast crapping away on the frets between cheeseburgers.
edit: etude 1 is coming along now towards 120. doing it the right way, incrementing up but maintaining quality. neoclassical advanced moving along to in same fashion. thank god you are here Marcus, you are indispensable for this site, but I don't agree on this at all. Playing super fast and out of good control just screws you up, even if you don't realize it. The neighbors will if you leave the windows open though.
Posted by: Rolls Aug 8 2008, 11:49 AM
http://www.intimateaudio.com/psycho_licks.gilbert.html
I did the routine most of you are pushing. Been there, done that, not going back. If I walk under a grove of trees filled with starlings, and they poop on my head for a year and a half, well it should not have taken me a year and a half to learn to stay away from those trees. But better late than never.
My ideal of play is more the type of play that has been traditionally expected of a concert violist or pianist, not some shredder fast crapping away on the frets between cheeseburgers.
That's right GMC.....don't try to practice too fast even for a few minutes during your practice routine or you will become addicted to cheeseburgers.....LOL
Posted by: Caelumamittendum Aug 8 2008, 01:45 PM
Well, I'm not sure whether I will agree or not, because walking and running are two difference movements, where as picking is actually only one or could or should be:
When running your posture is completely different than with walking.
I know that picking slow and picking fast may not be the same movement, but they probably should be:
You want to play with your pick so that you only leave the string by 1 mm to each side of the string. That movement will be the same if you play it at 80 or 120 bpm, as long as you're precise about it.
I know some people will say that when they play 16th notes at 80 bpm they are more relaxed than when playing the same at 150 bpm, but shouldn't you be equally relaxed (in a perfect world)?
Posted by: leedbreak Aug 8 2008, 03:38 PM
It's very interesting and uplifting reading your stories and ideas. Keep 'em coming
I love that part! It's a great comparison.
Thank you leedbreak!
So, I have to ask Marcus...
Does this post mean you agree?
Thanks
In reality, many of my post on GMC are about me trying to determine if I am going something wrong.
Posted by: coffeeman Aug 8 2008, 04:13 PM
Some might think Paul gilbert is right , others might think Shawn Lane is right, I think Marcus is right.
"Nothing is absolute, everything is relative, it depends on the point of view of the observer"
The way I see it is that if it worked for Marcus , and I think he is an awesome guitar player, it can work for me too, the day this isn't working for me anymore I can change my strategy.
Posted by: Carlos Carrillo Aug 8 2008, 09:16 PM
Brilliant post Marcus!!!
Sincerely, the speed develops with very much study, you must be very Patient.., it is important!
A very good way of practising is using the metronome.
You must be conciente that your hands and your fingers must rest, never forget to relax your fingers!!To look after yourself!!!
God Bless You!!
Posted by: Déjà vu Aug 8 2008, 09:26 PM
A quick google search led me to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhkbSBxPYcU. Shawn talks about how he developed speed, and it's pretty much the same way we talk about here. Cool
Yup! That's the video! Speaking of ridiculous speed patterns
. I heard Petrucci's "Constant Motion" solo. In the ending run is that tremolo picked, or strict alternate!?
Posted by: Vinod Saranga Aug 9 2008, 12:59 PM
Very true !
It's still true for classical guitar
Mindset is very important in playing fast.
Listening to Paco de Lucia and other flamenco fast runs always makes the
right mind set I need.
Posted by: seagull Aug 10 2008, 01:15 PM
As Muris always says: The sky is the limit.
However true, the mind IS indeed also a highly prominent limit. One thing is muscle memory, another thing is mind forwardness. If you want to play fast, you must be extremely conscious of what you are playing. Or else you will fail long runs because your hands may be set to it but your mind will ruin it due to consciousness.
Posted by: jacmoe Aug 14 2008, 09:17 PM
I've practiced like this for a while now, and I thank yee, Marcus, for this topic!
Picking motion seems like the same, but it is not the same: When playing slower stuff I don't only move my wrist, I also wiggle and turn to get different sounds/attacks - especially when playing the blues.
If you think your technique is flawless at a certain speed, playing a lot faster will definately pull you down!
You might experience tensions, aches and lack of muscle control..
When you get back to your own speed, work on those issues, relatively slowly, until you can play flawlessly again, even if you play somewhat faster than you use to.
It's like a sinus wave!
Posted by: Daniel Robinson Aug 15 2008, 08:51 AM
Another thing i noticed about speed, at least for myself is its odd how the mind thinks even with slight changes.
I don't know how to explain it too well, but for instance there are things i can't play fast at all if my hand is turned a certain way. A very slight correction, with hand angle and i can play something i can't play the other way. You wouldnt think that less than 10mm movement would make that much of a difference but it does!
Maybe for some of you having problems with speed barriers should try slight adjustments of your hand angle...or pick angle...or even how you hold the guitar. Who knows you might just find that trigger!
Daniel
Posted by: kyldeee Aug 15 2008, 05:31 PM
I must try this.... * setting metronome 300 bpm, with Muris' Extreme Neo-classical lesson*
No, no, seriously, I must try this
Posted by: Ryan Aug 17 2008, 10:41 AM
I like to give my hands, and ears a challenge. I always find that to work for me. So I agree with Marcus.
Always push yourself farther, and harder if your really want to succed, and exceed that speed.
Posted by: 2mazzo Aug 17 2008, 11:12 AM
I downloaded screaming fingers for $15, and my hand sync and speed has developed a lot just in the last week.
With my small pointed v-pick I`ll be shredding faster than Yngwie in no time
http://www.screamingfingers.com
Posted by: Guitarist16 Aug 21 2008, 08:27 PM
i actually started to do this and have seen great improvements thanks a lot.
Posted by: superize Aug 24 2008, 07:18 PM
I have noticed when i play very fast and the go down to comfortable speed it takes a while to adapt to the slower speeds. Its like my hands wants to play faster then what i am supposed to play
Posted by: Nazgul Aug 27 2008, 03:01 PM
It's a lil' bit Off-Topic now, but I have got a lack of motivation with alternate picking practice at the moment. I just don't know what licks to practice, the ones I just practiced a few days just get too fast too boring. It would help if someone more experienced than me could post a link of maybe a GMC lesson with some licks to practice, maybe neoclassical... just get me back to motivation.
Thanks for answering and sorry for Off-Topic.
Posted by: superize Aug 27 2008, 03:15 PM
Thanks for answering and sorry for Off-Topic.
Try Marcus neoclassical etude
Posted by: Juan M. Valero Aug 30 2008, 08:39 AM
I had a discussion with few of my students recently about developing speed, and I just want to share my thoughts on this subject with you guys as well
Practicing at slow speed and articulate is definitely a good way to prevent playing sloppy, - but that in itself won’t make you play fast unless you know what it’s like to play fast.
You must get in the feel of what it’s like to play fast before you can do it, because it’s a whole different thing mentally!
So every once in a while, put the metronome at 300 bpm (or whatever) even if you know you’ll probably miss 80% of the notes, but do the best you can though. This will give you an idea of what it’s like to play that fast (even if it doesn't sound very good), and you’ll get a much clearer picture of what you will need to learn to do with your fingers.
This in combination with practicing articulate and slow is the best way I know to get fast results.
Now, lets hear your thoughts on this!
Feel free to agree or to disagree of course
Great topic !!! I absolutely agree, it's important to play it slow but you need to put metronome at 300 (well maybe not as fast !!) to avoid the brain-limit
sometimes the problem is not in our hands but also in our mind
Posted by: Jaymz Aug 31 2008, 02:46 AM
I have a question, what's the best way to build arm strength for down picking? For example I can play Metallica's Master of Puppets up to speed for a few seconds but my arm tires out too fast. Have any tips?
Posted by: Vinod Saranga Aug 31 2008, 05:46 AM
Usually the upstroke is the weaker one in most guitar players.Practising few excercises that is concentrated on developing upstrokes (Such as upstrokes only drills) help many people to get a fast alternate picking.
Downstrokes are powerful than upstrokes in many cases.So if you think your downstrokes are weaker you should practise more alternative picking excercises.
Here are some great lessons in GMC to strenghten your picking hand
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/alternate-workout/
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/alternate-picking1/
Vinod
Posted by: Guitarist16 Oct 2 2008, 12:44 AM
OMG dude this forum helped me out so much, in the past month i can actually sweep and play like 50% faster. thanks a lot!
Posted by: THE BUZZARD Oct 2 2008, 12:57 AM
yes marcus, i agree with slow and articulate playing, you are also correct in saying '' you won,t know how it feels to play fast if you don,t try it, cause that,s the last thing guitar players want is to be sloppy and only discipline will over come this!!!!
Posted by: Marcus Lavendell Oct 2 2008, 07:21 AM
I'm happy to hear that!
Congrats!
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)