So i want to start recording my amp using a mic. And im wondering whats the best mic pre amp under $200? (if there is one). Or is there a better way of recording? thx.
What are you using for input? Your PC's soundcard? Or do you have an audio interface already?
If it is the soundcard, you will benefit from buying a better audio interface, and these days a lot of them come with reasonable MIC amplifiers thus solving 2 problems at once.
Adrew has a strong point here - you need a reasonably good soundcard to start recording.
I suggest something like EMU 0202 USB. It is very cheap and it has one mic input with preamp.
Thanks for the help guys im thinkin of getting a toneport UX2.
Stay away from toneport stuff or any digital, with 230 euro I'll buy the PreSonus BlueTube DP Stereo Tube Microphone Preamp, just bear in mind that tube pre has a smother slower response instead of the solid state one (if you are a fast metal riffer you culd prefer the latter) anyway the PreSonus has both! :-DDDD
Joe Kataldo
If you are in the US go to zzsounds.com they sell it just $199.95 nearly there man! under 200$$$ :-D
well, I understand, right now I'm In Italy, and is expensive than US , but speaking in $$$ I conceived that you were in U.S. any way I think that USB is too slow for audio application if you need a audio interface/mic pre solution I suggest you to search for something fireware
Anyway here is my suggestion...this solution should fit your budget
M-Audio Delta Audiophile 24/06 PCI (you can use protool M-Powered!!!)
A really good sound card to start recording
ART TubeMP Project Series
A Budget tube pre with phantom (stereo)
or cheaper
ART TubeMP (mono)
A Budget tube pre with phantom
the same with less option
Check this stuff and let me know
Joe Kataldo
If its a PreAmp only you need, then Behringer got affordable good Tube Mic Preamps called Ultragain.
You can only fill your tank on your car twice for the money you will spent on one of these.
Cool thing: if you later want to upgrate the Behringer Ultragain to a pro preAmp, then just replace the stock tubes with: EI Elite 12AX7EG Telefunken clones, then you suddenly got a highend PreAmp mate. Have fun!
Very cool advice, I upgraded mine with NOS e83cc Tesla , changing tube you can fully re-voice your pre!
I think that toneport is a good choice for starters. It is a good PnP device that needs little configuration and it doesent require sepparate soundcard - because it is a soundcard. For that sort of money, buy it, it has 2 mic preamps, two guitar inputs, two line-level recoridng inputs, built in effects, decent converters (for a price) and over 100dB n\s ratio. It even has two monitor inputs, SPDIF, analog VUmeters and phantom power. And for 200$! Come on
E83CC Tesla not jj has the same design of Telefunken and are cheaper I can't say more than that! I have two of them from same batch matched, but they sound different Actually I'm using them in my mark IV
Many people thinks NOS is a waste of money, I think is right and true at the same time, Before transistor were tubes, specially military and medical one were made to last That kind of machine can't fail for a tube!!!
This for as means more quality Definition 3d sound. The only BIG advice I can give to you about NOS is Find A dealer you trust!
Joe Kataldo
So been looking at stuff other than a toneport because ideally i want to record my marshall JCM900 instead of using emulation.
There are two ART Tube MP Projects, a standard? and usb. Not sure what the difference is maybe one is a newer model? standard is about $130 and USB is $220. Anyone know if the art Micro Mixer pre amps are any good aswell? their pretty cheap.
How would these sound with a shure sm57? any other suggestions for better mics? pretty sure thats the best one.
Then i guess that just leaves getting a better sound card.
Hey Joe, this is interesting stuff.
I have a reasonable tube mike (Rode K2) which I run into a solid state Mic Amp (Fostex TwinTrak pro) but was wondering if you think it is worth getting a tube preamp as well? I guess you can't have too much tubey goodness Maybe I'll build a preamp myself, could be a good follow on project from my guitar Amp.
finding the right combination of mic and preamp is as much science as religion...anyway is a common practice combine tube mic with mosfet pre and vice versa always trying to get best of both world, usually one tube stage is enough. each stage will add noise.
I had opportunity to test the rode k-2 I think is an awesome mic for female voices, I like the coloration it gives. I've tested it for cabinet ambient, but didn't impressed me, it does a good job for acustic guitar too!
Here is an helpful website for all newbie http://www.bedroom-recording.com/
Joe Kataldo
Just to add to Joe here - different preamps suit different types of music as well, just the same as some mics suit say a female vocalist, others a male and so on. The difficulty for most of us is that we don't have a vast array of mics and pre's to mix and match so often end up trying to get one, or a very few, that will be a 'jack of all trades'.
Higher end pres generally will give a much better result then intro ones and you'll find you have more head room and probably more gain. Also above a given price limit you can start to hear that certain makes have a particular sound/character, a Neve is a Neve is a Neve, A Manley is a Manley is a Manley, an SSL is an SSL, etc - just the same with high end guitar amps. Perhaps what we tend to do is gravitate towards what we are used to? I grew up with Neve before getting used to the ultra clean SSL sound in the 80s/90s. I like both and think they have their own strengths and weaknesses. I tend to see Neve as good for many things and SSL excellent for dance/electronica and some orchestral. So to some extent what may work is to think what type of music you record and like to listen to and what sort of equipment the latter may have been recorded on and aim towards what matches them.
Just going back to a tube mic - as Joe says it has a nice coloration and tube 'warmth' that suits some vocal types for some types of music. You might not want that coloration to record say an orchestra or even a male vocal. It can work really well with some preamps that gain from the warmth whilst others might come across as strident or unnatural and with too much presence. I don't know about the Fostek (did it become the Focusrite Twintrack Andrew?) but I'd guess that the K2 is probably a notch or two above it price band wise. So the K2 would certainly work well with a more high end pre. A tube pre - maybe - but it is possible to add too much warmth and colouration, and as Joe says more noise, or indeed have a tube pre that doesn't match the tube mic.
What I'd suggest you try Andrew is to take the K2 in to a good music store and try it out with some different pre's and then base your design on whichever of those works best.
Last bit from me - at some stage you will need to digitise for your DAW. To my mind it would be a bit of a waste to have a great mic, great pre and poor AD conversion. So as Joe says you either need an audio card like the Audiophile that has good AD/DA or you will need to do it prior to it. Some preamps have AD cards, some don't. The more expensive pres that do tend to have good AD, the less expensive, well... IMHO don't waste money on poor AD/DA. A bargain end pre with an AD/DA card might look like great value for money but essentially garbage in results in garbage out.
Cheers,
Tony
Thanks TOny for your usual thorough response
Did I say Fostex? I meant Focusrite I know Mic amps are usually a weak spot in the recording chain, so welcome the input that I might benefit from a higher end Pre tan the twintrak.
A/D wise I believe I am well served by my EMU1212m (the m somehow stands for "really quite good converters" as opposed to the non-m models of the same card) so I am hoping I am ok in this area. The EMU "m" converters always get great reviews, but let me know if you think I am off base here - as things do move on
I think my next purchase will be a http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHADA8000 to expand my studio to 10 ins and outs - I need more options for reamping and monitoring etc. Whilts I probably wouldn't use the Behringer seriously for micing (it is pretty cheap after all and its MIC amps probably aren;t the greatest) I am hoping that this will be a cost effective way of increasing my line ins and outs without spending a fortune - I can hook this up to the 1212m via ADAT lightpipe to get a single 10/10 IO capability.
I may well add a high quality single input path preamp to go with the K2 for important things like lead vocals and guitar micing.
I'd appreciate any advice on the above strategy
Just on the AD/DA Andrew - not sure if I can make this understandable, so apologies in advance. AD/DA depends on the signal to noise ratio, bit resolution and accuracy (quantisation error, linearity and jitter). For a DAW a resolution of 24 bit is standard for most AD/DA. Food for thought for anyone recording above or below 24 bit .
As far as I know for a linear AD conversion system you need 5-6 dB per bit - so an SNR of 120-140 dBA. If you look at the stats for higher end AD/DA convertors (RME, Apogee, ADC etc) they generally offer SNR over 110dBA, usually 110-120. (The further you go below 140 the lower your SNR, obviously, but also I'd assume the more you move from linearity.)
Quantisation error occurs as any ADC has a finite resolution and at a certain point becomes dependent of the input signal which results in distortion. This distortion may of course be 'removed' via dithering but dithering will reduce the SNR further.
All ADCs have a degree of nonlinearity - the extent to which output differs from input. Higher end ADC are calibrated to account for their non-linearity (plus higher grade components and assembly reduce non-linearity).
For jitter - again largely unavoidable - you need to minimise jitter via an ultra low jitter clock. Without an ultra low jitter clock it isn't possible to achieve accurate 24 bit recording. Lower end ADCs may not have a suitable clock.
So for ADC it's not really enough to talk about the SNR - there are other issues to take into account and so the figures are usually about resolution (normally 24bit); SNR; THD; and, internal clock jitter.
One of the odd bits, to me anyway, is that ADCs do sound different. An RME will sound different to a Rosetta and an ADC etc. Regardless of this the higher end ADCs tend however to resolve much more detail, sound more open and be more accurate then the poorer quality ADCs - which is what I think Joe means above. It's a bit like hi fi - a good high end cd player sounds more detailed etc at least in part because the DAC is of high quality. As ever though the catch 22 is you pay your money and make a choice. Is 2000ish USD for a mid range Apogee Rosetta ADC worth the cash...
How well the EMU stacks up here I don't know (never seen the specs for it) - I do remember it getting good reviews as a sound card though. If to date your happy with it then I'd say keep it for now. You can always chuck money at it at a later date .
Cheers,
Tony
Exactly if you have some money to invest, the first place is AD/DA converter, all-equipped solution usually has very cheap converter, and as stated before they have everything but quality (sound quality dynamics, clearness etc. etc.)
Joe kataldo
Thanks guys, I have been happy with the quality, and at the time it was billed as having the same AD converter as one of the protools rigs which can't be bad. Of course you don;t know if anything is better until you hear it, but I think I will stick with it for now at least.
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