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Posted by: Phil66 Dec 30 2015, 06:45 PM

Hello everyone,
I'm thinking of upgrading my amp. I have two 4x8 cabs one is going to be swapped for a 1x12 hopefully with a Celestion Vintage 30 in it.
The amp needs to sound right at around 90db as it's for home studio use. I know I've got Amplitube and plugins but I've recently rediscovered the pleasure of playing through an amp.
I've got two on my shortlist which to me seem ideal for recording but I'd like to get your opinions please. I don't get chance to get to shops for testing so I guess the key is versatility.
I listen to, and mainly want to play, classic and modern rock tones like Thunder, Black Stone Cherry, SRV, Satch, Vai, with a bit of punk and metal thrown in for good measure.

Here are the two currently on my shortlist.

http://www.laney.co.uk/products/product_details/156

http://www.laney.co.uk/products/product_details/177

I've watched lots of videos of both and even the Ironheart can get good cleans but in not sure if the Lionheart has enough gain. I have a VGL Hotbird analogue drive pedal too.

There are some links in my mega thread with Mertay and Todd http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=55150&view=findpost&p=724779 if you want to take a look. There is info in that thread about the Hotbird too as Mertay has been tirelessly helping me to get to grips with it

Cheers dudes, and thanks for taking the time.

Posted by: Chris S. Dec 30 2015, 10:43 PM

I've been looking at the Iron Heart as well for its well-suited'ness for studio/quiet recording.

Unfortunately nowhere near me has one to try out

The other amp on my radar is the Peavey 6505 mini head that also has studio/quiet applications.

Decisions decisions

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 30 2015, 11:21 PM

Ah I hadn't thought about the Peavey, I had a bandit Transtube which was good but too loud.
I wonder how much of it is still biased towards the EVH sound?
Cheers.

Posted by: jstcrsn Dec 31 2015, 12:15 AM

the IRT Studio has more features including an speaker emulation for directly recording into your daw , mucho more options imo

Posted by: Mertay Dec 31 2015, 12:29 AM

L5 has that too, the voicings semm to be the main thing. One metal oriented while the other classic rock and to me they can't meet much common ground on tone.

Posted by: Tom51 Dec 31 2015, 09:11 AM

Hi Phil,
I have been using a H&K Tubemeister5 combo (also available as head) for about one year now. Its has an XLR out for direct recording in your DAW and also a power soak option so that you can run at 5/1/0 watt. At home 1w is really loud but there is also a tubemeister 18 and 36 available if you want to have a gig option. Soundwise you will have to try it to see if it sounds good with your existing cabinet but reviews on youtube are very positive.
http://hughes-and-kettner.com/our-products/

I recently heard five different cabinets at a store and my absolute favorite was the Fender Princeton Reverb cabinet. Maybe due to the speaker profile I really liked (Jensen P10)

Cheers Tom

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 31 2015, 10:47 AM

Thanks Tom,
The HK TM18 looks good. I'd probably go for that over the 5 as it had more control, (why does fewer watts mean fewer knobs). Only issue for me is lack of reverb.
I'll watch the videos when I get home on Saturday. Not too good on a phone.
Cheers folks, keep the ideas and advice coming please.
Thank you
Phil

Posted by: Mertay Dec 31 2015, 01:13 PM

If an amp has has fx loop, don't worry about reverb as by buying a pedal you'll have a better sounding one anyway. Joe Satriani's huge signature JVM for example doesn't have reverb on it as he requested it like that.

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 31 2015, 03:12 PM

Thanks Mertay,
Thing is we then start a huge debate about reverb pedals ams even some of the spring pedals that are around. Can you handle that Mertay?
I sometimes think that amps like the Satriani one don't really have reverb because they are played loud and natural room reverb happens anyway. Maybe I'm wrong.
What do you think of the HK Mertay?
Cheers

Posted by: Todd Simpson Dec 31 2015, 10:18 PM

The HK is probably a good compromise between those two laney models. You can get blues/rock tones galore out of it and it will turn mean and metal when pushed with an overdrive in front. So it's pretty flexible. Where as the two LANEY amps you mentioned are both a bit more specific in terms of what they were built for. Of course, you can make nearly amp sound like nearly anything with the right pedals and technique in front of it, (e.g. I made a tweed clone sound like a Krank with just a pedal).

Posted by: Phil66 Dec 31 2015, 10:28 PM

Thanks Todd,
I am only lean toward the Laney for a few reasons, I've seen them on stages everywhere; the mighty Mr Iommi has used them for years, they have reverb and the company is a 15 minute drive from me
Personally I've not seen H&K on stage so I wonder about reliability.
Cheers

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 1 2016, 12:21 AM

The HK gear is really solid but but so is the LANEY It does come down to what you want in the end so all that remains is to distill the info and arrive at a conclusion. Hopefully Mertay can kick in some more info! I have zero experience with either of those laney amps so I can't help you there in terms of details.

As for a 1x12. Any nice 1x12 wil do ya The MESA 1x12 will do you really well The Randall will do ya pretty solid as wel.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 1 2016, 11:29 AM

Thanks Todd,
The Mesa is more than I want to pay but the Randall and one of the Marshalls look good. I always think of Dime when I think of Randall, I love his work and Tone but it's not the tone I want. How are the cabs voiced? I was thinking of finding one with Celestion V30 which seems to be very popular.
I've noticed some 1x12 cabs advertised as extension cabs is this different to a normal cab?
I think it might be an idea to get and record the amp through my Blackstar 4x8 first as you and Mertay have a good reference point with that cab. What do you think.
Cheers

Posted by: jstcrsn Jan 1 2016, 02:06 PM

doh, I ran to quickly to try to read the speck sheet I forgot to read the title and first line

Posted by: Mertay Jan 1 2016, 03:24 PM

Sorry don't know much about h&k either, again one of the brands I see sometimes on sale used but never got my hands on one as far as I remember. There are all the brands where I live but some of their distributors really suck so its hard for me to even find one to try.

As guitarists (like vai-satch...)use stuff like axe-fx, TC Electronics fx units simply for non-drive fx a reverb on an amp is really un-necesarry for them cause there processor units have 100s of options in them.
Also in the modulation area unless you don't spend a small fortune, digital really sounds good unlike the difference like an amp sim. vs real amp. Even in the best studios in the world engineers use digital modulation fx without hesitation.

Mid. priced pedals do a really good job for reverb/delay specially these days. Also your gt001 would serve for that area very good if you decide to buy a soundcard someday

The Fender cab.s are the closest to sound like a Mesa cab. in my experience, specially Jensen loaded ones really surprised me on high-gain performance. I think I might even prefer a Fender cab. to Mesa if I had to choose but I never compared them side by side. For the Marshall-ish vibe ENGL cab.s are really nice too.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 1 2016, 03:42 PM

Thanks Mertay,
So I think it's best to get the amp first, shortlist so far is the two Laney heads, the Peavey and the H&K.
Then I'll record through a miced Blackstar 4x8 and post in the "Gas, what next" thread to keep it all under one place as that is where this originated.
Do you agree?
Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Jan 1 2016, 04:43 PM

yep thats the big decision

Anything after the amp is easyer, like reverb/delay can be placed afterthe mic. or line out from gt001 or computer etc. . Depending after the tone of the new amp, the next priority can never be set.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 1 2016, 07:21 PM

Thanks Mertay,
At the moment, pending further investigation the Peavey is in the lead.
Could do with a cost effective reverb unit but not a pedal really, mains powered, amp top or desktop.
I loved my Peavey Bandit Transtube with its resonance button and presence knob it was just too loud on the clean channel even on 1
Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Jan 1 2016, 10:33 PM

Mine is very similar to it, almost the same except drive channel.

I don't know why I just remembered by using the fx loop you can actually decrease any amps output...will try tomorrow with one of my pedals to see if theres any problem to this.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 2 2016, 09:36 AM

Thanks Mertay,
The clean channel on the Transtube Bandit sounded lovely, it was just too loud and no master volume, it was like an on /off switch, the person who has it now says the same.
It was one of the original Transtube Bandits with the "Sheffield Equipped" speaker.
Drive channel was ok, a little bit "dry" sounding if anything.
Does your last post mean there is a chance of more options regarding heads?
Cheers

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 2 2016, 09:52 AM

So much of this is so subjective that it can be difficult to quantify in text. It will really come down to your ears. Any decent 1x12 will get the job done in your home studio for recording. Extension cab is just a term that typically means "not full size". Recording your 4x8 is an entirely different world than recording with full size drivers/speakers just because of the tonal differences. I'm sure with enough practice you can get a sound you are happy enough with, recorded. But I do think you'd be happier with a full size speaker, at least one speaker anyway Just a v30 in a box basically.

Posted by: Mertay Jan 2 2016, 10:53 AM

I tested pluging the ts9 to the send-return of my amp but its couldn't get any sound (pedal on or off). Maybe its because its not in a good shape or maybe its not true-bypass...

I thought maybe phil could decrease the output of an amp like that so he can use higher-watt amps? could you check this for us?



Didn't work but I suspect its my amp related as its not in a good shape, lets see what Todd has to say for the idea...

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 2 2016, 12:14 PM

Thanks Todd,
My problem is, I'm always trying to cover as many bases as possible to cover the future as much as possible, too many times I've got a month down the line and thought "I wish I'd........ ".
I'm going to get a 1x12 preferably with a Vintage30 in it and keep the 4x8 to run at the same time. I'm also thinking, when I get more proficient in the recording department I can mic both cabs for more flavour, obviously this will need a new interface but as I said, I'm covering bases
Cheers




Thanks Mertay,
That opens up a whole new world. I was reading about attenuators a while back, (I put a thread up) but many said that they can damage the amp. Maybe the fx loop is better. I wonder what a volume pedal in the loop would do??
Cheers


Update:
I'm back home now so can do some good research
Couple of videos of demos of the Laney IRT Pulse which may give indication of tones available in IRT Studio head. One does some jazz tones.



Update II:
Something keeps pulling me back to the IRT. The demo halfway down http://www.gak.co.uk/en/laney-ironheart-irt-studio/79765 page sound great to me, obviously the guy can play which makes a difference to me playing through the same thing but I think the tones he's getting are sweet, it goes into a slow clean section in the middle. I need to find a demo of it doing some dirty blues.

Update III:
What you reckon to this? I found the point a 2:55 pretty impressive even though it lacks a bit of sparkle, could that be the guitar being turned down? 3:58 sound ok to me too, 4:21 some funk style strumming. Seems more versatile than first thought.

Posted by: Mertay Jan 2 2016, 07:27 PM

Some reading while waiting check the "pull it all together" , seem the cab. can be just as important for lesser loudness; http://thehub.musiciansfriend.com/tech-tips/tech-tip-wattage-speaker-efficiency-amplifier-loudness

and this is a really long one; http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/appropriate-wattage

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 2 2016, 08:58 PM

The LANEY is a great piece of kit The smaller pedal shaped PULSE may be a better way to start just because it's a good bit cheaper and still retains a lot of the tone. You can even put a tube screamer in front of it and it will respond like an amp head. But it's certainly less capable than the IRT. Keep in mind there is a cheaper version of that rack unit, but it doesn't have usb. As for the IRT, It's just a killer unit and can do a variety of tones all the way from blues to death metal. For that price though, you are not getting any fx. I considered the IRT myself, but I wanted fx on tap that can be midi controlled. So I got the 11 rack. As many tones as any head I've tried, plus FX plus usb recording, plus a XLR tube preamp on the front for microphone input, plus a software editor, plus MIDI for foot control. But some folks just need tubes

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 2 2016, 09:32 PM

Thanks Mertay,
Yeah, the speaker efficiency does make a huge difference, I know about that from my hi-fi upgrades. Problem is, with "true" hi-fi, your trying to recreate as close to the source (master tapes) as possible given equipment and environmental limitations whereas with a guitar cab, you are trying to achieve a tone, if that tone comes from an efficient cone it's not, in my case ideal I think, for me, I'd rather have an efficient cone, lower wattage amp than less efficient cone with a higher wattage amp, does this make sense and is it actually sense?
I mean, 80 watts guitar amp is a loud amp, I have my 80 watt Meridian often running at 70% (when my wife is out) and you can just hear it in the back garden with the windows closed but it's no way offensive, in the neighbours' garden it's barely audible. I've just done some db tests out of interest. The volume on my Meridian F80 (http://media.meridian-audio.com/datasheets/legacy/f80/radio-brochure_A5-scr.pdf) goes from 1-99. At 6" (150mm) from the front number 30 gives 56db150cm , 80 gives 95db, 99 gives 100db this is with a CD Black Stone Cherry- Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea. You cant run it at 99 really, not with rock, the transient attack on the drums makes it display "HOT" and turn itself down
It's not the same for a guitar amp/speaker running at 80 watts even with an inefficient cone, unless I'm mistaken. I've never really run my Blackstar cranked on full gain and volume. This is why I'm thinking one of these switchable wattage amps might be good for me.

What did you think of the IRT Pulse? I wouldn't have one but I thought it might give more insight.
What did you think of the latest demo of the IRT Studio that I put up?
What did you think of the volume pedal in fx loop?

Thank you so much for your time Mertay, I feel we are nearly their in getting a half decent multi approach home studio going, just gotta learn how to play then I can see me ending up with a full rack replacing one of the Blackstar 4x8 cabs in the future



Thanks Todd,
I didn't realise the Eleven Rack was a head. Thing is I like to keep my effects and amps separate. Maybe it's because I am basically a newbie and don't fully understand everything. It's not that I need tubes, I've just rediscovered playing through an amp, and even with my limited skills it just felt so sweet, there's something about it. That's how I got into all the mic questions over in the other GAS thread, (http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=55150.

I am still thinking the IRT is for me, the more I watch the more I get an idea of its scope, even though YouTube isn't the best for tone listening

Cheers

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 2 2016, 09:47 PM

The 11 Rack is NOT a head. Sorry to confuse It's a preamp. So I run it directly to my monitors (Rockit 6 by KRK) if you have a pair of studio monitors you don't need a head or a power amp. it also acts as your audio interface. But for gigging, add a power amp of any kind including a combo amp on clean.

In short, it's the center of my home studio. The reason I skipped the IRT was that it had no fx and had no XLR input/mic preamp. It's just a low watt tube head. But it's a nice one

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 2 2016, 09:55 PM

Ahh,

I have my GT-001 setup like that into the monitors. Don't need the PC switched on to play through it if I want a quick noodle I don't really want to be learning a new fx system just yet, I'm just getting comfortable with the UI for the Boss but one day, it will happen.

Another decent little demo showing some of the clean and crunchy settings


Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Jan 3 2016, 09:58 AM

Yeah the irt pulse is pretty sweet, aside from computer related usages I really like whats going on these days in the super small amp area of products.

As for the latests demo on irt studio, I'd love to shred with those tones (sort of familiar to my setup with pedals too) but for clean to low gain I still hear it being very american/metal amp voiced

As for the volume pedal on fx loop, I really have to try this myself which I can't I'm sure it will solve the issue with un-low-adjustable volume knob of an amp but I'm not sure of the side effects like how much noise would be added or if the tone will get muddy. I did a lot of things with an fx loop like direct connecting an amp to a soundcard from there but never really thought about volume issues.

...And an amp I noticed (though combo) you could check out;



Edit; seems the 15W head version can also decrease volume with pentode/triode (check near ending of video);

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 3 2016, 03:58 PM

Thanks Mertay,
I really want a head though.
I think I may have found what I want

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lycB8tEErws


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1G6K0f32xY


Then I start looking at the 6505 mini head again. I don't even think a test in a shop would help. It would come down to time with each of these but I think I've now narrowed it down to these two. For the time being

Posted by: Mertay Jan 3 2016, 05:10 PM

That valveking seems to be the most flexable option I listened till now. Its got the bright cleans, can sound traditional too and the dist. sounds are as cool as the cleans

Did you check the 100W version? it can go down to 5W

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 3 2016, 05:46 PM

Yes mate I did but it's over £700.
Apart from the power and more knobs what do you think the benefit would be?
Also, I think the Valveking is more flexible that the 6505 do you?
Cheers

Update:
The demo below is recorded through http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_g112vintage.htm cab which seems to be a total bargain considering it has a Celestion Vintage 30 in it. What do you think about this cab?

http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_g112vintage.htm

Posted by: Mertay Jan 3 2016, 07:59 PM

Well, the versatility comes from the extra knobs really

I frequently find myself tweaking the presence and high knob to finetune the sparkle for edge-of-breakup stuff. Resonance knobs usually help either to help cut through the mix, or make the character of an amp go from traditional to metal...separate eq's are always great, if you want to jump from a sparkly clean to distroy the world distortion, such distortion always needs the highs to be chopped off.

Also seems there's 7 tubes in that amp which is crazy hard to generalize but probably helps to get a richer sound for again edge-of-breakup sounds.

Seems both the small and big versions are pretty cool, loving the cleans on that thomann video you shared. This one is from the peavey channel;



As for the 6505, its signature sound is very recognisable to me on every version of it, sort of like vintage metal thats why I personally can't consider it to be versatile.

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 3 2016, 08:11 PM

Thanks Mertay,
So do you think that Harley Benton cab is worth buying NOW? For the money it seems a good starting point even with the Blackstar and Vox.
Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Jan 3 2016, 08:32 PM

Forgot to mention that

I checked some reviews on web and everyone seems to like it, checked vintage 30; http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/ and seems power rating is 60watts so its good for home. From the video it sound cool so yeah its great but it shouldn't affect your amp budget as thats more important also keep in mind its 8ohm.s just incase though 8ohm is pretty much a standard feature on all amps...

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 3 2016, 09:56 PM

Cab ordered, I wanted a 1x12 anyway so that's all good.

More research into the amp but I think the Valveking is the one

Thank you for your help my friend. I honestly appreciate it.

Cheers

Posted by: Mertay Jan 3 2016, 10:41 PM

Awesome! after the amp is selected we have lots of listening tests to do

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 3 2016, 11:20 PM

I'm up for it if you are Mertay but please don't feel obliged, you have been a diamond already and I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much
Cheers

Posted by: Chris Harrington Jan 4 2016, 01:20 PM

Hey Phil,

Friend of mine has a ValveKing and its a great amp, really versatile and the vari-class A - A/B feature is great for really clear cleans and also stacked tube driven distortion sounds. If I remember correctly the output options for recording are really good too, loads of options.

Looking forward to hearing your rig!

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 4 2016, 03:17 PM

Thanks Chris,

I'm definitely getting one of those Mojo amps you have too, too cute to avoid And at £99 a total steal

Cheers

Posted by: Chris Harrington Jan 4 2016, 06:51 PM

Yeah they are cool for a more than affordable price, I got an artist deal with them at the end of last year and they sent over their catalogue of stuff, 'small but cool' seems to be their thing haha

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 4 2016, 10:57 PM

So I'm pretty much decided on the Valveking, any of you got any other ideas?
Thanks

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 5 2016, 11:41 AM

Ok then, it's a deal, I'm ordering today

Posted by: Mertay Jan 5 2016, 11:41 AM

Cool!

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 5 2016, 01:01 PM

Done

Posted by: Todd Simpson Jan 6 2016, 07:16 AM

Congrats Valve king is a fine amp. I think it camp up before didn't it? I think it's a fine choice

Posted by: Phil66 Jan 6 2016, 09:58 AM

Thanks Todd