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Posted by: Pavel Aug 30 2007, 05:51 AM

Here is a link to new Line 6 products which were built in co-operation with Bogner so these are Line 6/Bogner amps.

http://www.line6.com/spidervalve/

Can't wait to see the price and some samples of how it sounds!

Posted by: DewLondon Aug 30 2007, 05:53 AM

Oh MY! ill have to start saving those pennys

Posted by: MickeM Aug 30 2007, 06:01 AM

Aaaaaaalright, that could be interetsing.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 30 2007, 06:39 AM

No way! No I am all confused again

Posted by: MickeM Aug 30 2007, 06:46 AM

Same here :-) It will be interesting to see how they pull it off with the tube characteristics expecially for non 6L6 tube amp models. There must be some thought around the tube choise, maybe it's easier to simulate EL34's with 6L6 that the other way around?

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 30 2007, 06:55 AM

I mean, if it was anyone else but Reihnold Bogner ....

On paper it looks like the modelling is relegated to tone shaping - its hooked up to an honest to goodness complete tube amp including preamp, cascading gain stages, Phase Inverter and PP output stage. It is by no means a cop out, its literally a pod with a real tube amp bolted onto it

Edit: Aha! Just as I thought - its a preamp with no tone stack which allows them to do the tone stuff in DSP prior to feeding it into the amp ...

Posted by: Wallimann Aug 30 2007, 08:45 AM

Just saw that too...
Looking forward to hear it too!

Posted by: Pavel Aug 30 2007, 08:56 AM

Considering Bogner himself took part in creation of it - it must kick ass!

Posted by: Wallimann Aug 30 2007, 08:58 AM

That's exactly what I was thinking. :-)

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 30 2007, 09:12 AM

Not impressed.

Hardtail

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 30 2007, 09:47 AM

How can you tell - there are no sound clips there yet I guess I am a little skeptical too though ...

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 30 2007, 10:55 AM

Only because I have owned and used many Line6 Products and while they have there strong points, they never match up to the real deal.

Case in point...

I have compared my Flextone II XL (which remember is a fully updated Podxt Equivilant) to a Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier, a Marshall JCM2000 TSL 100 (which I personally owned), Roland Jazz Cube, and my Blues Junior. I compared each of these real rigs to the simulated ones on the Flextone and although the Flextone sounds good it never matched up the real thing.

Another thing I find intersting is Line6's claim to fame was that they could reproduce all those amp sounds without big dumb hot tubes... I mean really... if Line 6 has finally realized tubes are needed to get true warmth then I'd say the modelling vs. tube debate has just been ended

If I'm going to buy a tube amp I'm going to buy from a company that has a long history of making great amps and not from the new kids on the block who used to think tube amps were dumb.

Hardtail

Posted by: Rob_g Aug 30 2007, 11:18 AM

This is basicly what I'm doin, running my pod xt live to my tubed amp. Thats a great idea imo

Posted by: Smikey2006 Aug 30 2007, 11:58 AM

I think.. you shud mess with your tone using real pedals and mixers and not building it in.. I don't mind Line 6 but i really don't think its a respectable amp to be useing.. im skeptical about goodness of it... ill have to wait and hear the soundclips buuutt i would rather get a krank and then add a couple of pedals and a multi effects bored

Posted by: ch00ch00man Aug 30 2007, 12:13 PM

Ironically, as a very happy podxt owner, when I'm ready for the real thing, Line 6 won't be it. I'm with hardtail on this. When I'm ready for an all tube amp, its Mesa Boogie rectifier all the way. You just can't beat the decades of experience.

Boris

Posted by: MickeM Aug 30 2007, 07:14 PM

Is that all there is to it?

Posted by: Pavel Aug 30 2007, 07:46 PM

Mesa Boogie takes half of the price for the brand name. And again - if you are playing only at home you don't need that amp as MikeM stated in some other topics - tubes can blow your house apart.

Well, whatever...i'm just gonna wait to hear the sound samples and see the price. I don't have the money for amp anyway for now

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 30 2007, 08:38 PM

Yeah, it looks a little like that doesn't it



Its a little more than that - its actually:

Some DSP -> Tube Preamp -> Some more DSP -> Effects Loop -> Tube Power Amp

What all that complexity does to your signal path I'll leave as an exercise for the readers.

I do want to hear it though ...

Posted by: Francis Viviers Aug 30 2007, 09:23 PM

I Reckon that amp is gonna kick serious ass. Some poeple say the line6 amps has no texture because their solid state. Just imagine tube warmth and texture into those amps .... its gonna be awesome ...

Posted by: Hardtail Aug 30 2007, 09:51 PM

I think instead of "modeling" on this amp they should focus on their digital effects engine. I have yet to see a REAL good tube amp with built-in digital processor. Things like Echo, Delay, Chorus, etc. are actually very good from Line6 for being digital and my opinion is they should focus on that and get off the "modeling" track.

Modeling = Wannabe ; That's not an opinion it's just an abbreviation of the fact. The essence of modeling is to "sound like" something else. I'd rather just have the something else.

Hardtail

Posted by: Scott Gentzen Aug 30 2007, 11:16 PM

It'll be interesting to see how it works. I do something similar with my iPod at work...



My guitar amp's a Peavey Transformer which is a modelling amp but they run it all through their 'trans tube' analog (transistor) pre- and power-amps. I like most of the tones I get out of it but I'm not trying to pretend that it sounds exactly like what it's modelling.

Posted by: Francis Viviers Aug 31 2007, 03:33 PM

Yeah. Maby they should just make a clean sounding "bogner" amp and add the DF4 and DL4 and DM4 to it or something. That + full programmable midi style interface via they floorboard would sound incredible. I just like that amp cos its bogner in the back.

Posted by: Asphyxia Feeling Aug 31 2007, 03:36 PM

i think this is pretty cool. if the price is somewhere within some other guys that did the tube/modeling *coughvoxcough* i'll be sure to pick up a 30w; or 75w if they plan on doing the spider III "400 ROCKSTAR TONES" gimmick.


EDIT: nevermind, if i did get one i'd get the 1x12 as it's smallest.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Aug 31 2007, 08:37 PM

They are all over $1000 - I'd want it to sound pretty fricken sweet for that ...

Now I am almost a converted tube snob, I am suspicious - I agree totally with hardtail and others who said Line6 should stick to the stuff in the effects loop, and get the right kind of controllable/Midi switchable tonal variation by good tube circuit design, not DSP!

Posted by: Asphyxia Feeling Sep 1 2007, 06:32 AM

$1000! wow. they MUST be pretty fabulous with that price tag. can't wait to try one at a guitar store after they are available!

Posted by: Rock Sep 1 2007, 10:49 AM

I have to agree with you Smikey. I have no negatives at all with my tube amp. The cleans sound incredibly warm and depending upon what pedals I use I can get whatever sound I want. Te modelling amps just don't sound as good in my opinion.

Posted by: Owen Sep 1 2007, 07:08 PM

Seems pointless, if someone wants a tube amp they will get the genuine article. Also branding it with the Spider name tag is a bad idea, as that is truely known for being Line 6's worst amp.

Posted by: Pavel Sep 1 2007, 07:32 PM

Well you can't judge the new amp by previous models. I'm sure they changed loads of stuff and also i bet Bogner wouldn't work on shitty amp to put his logo on it.

Posted by: Hardtail Sep 2 2007, 09:08 AM

A lot of people do a lot of things for a lot of money.

Posted by: Owen Sep 2 2007, 11:59 PM

I'm not judging, but I think other people will.

Posted by: Francis Viviers Sep 3 2007, 02:54 PM

I must say i hate the amp models in line6 amps. Its so annoying cos the volume levels aren't equal etc.

Posted by: tonymiro Sep 3 2007, 09:30 PM

There have been a number of hybrid amps made in the past, albeit I don't recall one that married modelling and tube.

Personally I'm not sold on it just because Bogner was involved. There are an awful lot of products that have 'resulted from a collaboration' or are an 'endorsed by' item. Some of these prove to be fine but many seem to have more to do with marketing hype. Despite the oft heard claim 'I wouldn't put my name to...' - yadda yadda yadda - there is a long history of rubbish made and sold which people did put there name on. The opposite is of course also true in some cases. What we don't really know is the extent to which Bogner were involved in both the design and the actual mass manufacture of these amps. Many designs are wonderful on paper and in prototype, even up to small manufacturing runs but then the quality is lost on mass production. Very often a good design is compromised by manufacturing replacing expensive components present for the design and prototype with off the shelf ones or replacing hand wired for pcbs with board mounted components that are dipped soldered and so on. What happens here is anyones guess until they start to hit the shops in volume. Until any of us really get to see this amp live we can't tell how good it is.

On a different note personally modeling valve amps and then sticking that through a valve pre - well!. Surely here the issue is how accurate the model is and how accurate we need/want it to be? To me digital modelers at the moment just do not capture valve amps accurately enough. I don't want to reiterate what has been said before but digital does NOT fully and accurately reproduce an analogue wave form. Digital always compresses and loses information. In brief and perhaps a bit cynically garbage in will always equal garbage out - you've already lost and compressed a signal, valve preamping will not recover this.
If you really want to have an amp that accurately does a Fender blackface then you need a suitable valve amp, if you want a Boogie then like wise, same for Marshall ad infinitum. Where modeling amps are good is sticking a lot into a single relatively small versatile package. What it is not is accurate. That however is my subjective opinion - in many situations, and to many people, a modeler may well be accurate enough. (See Pavel's thread where most people couldn't tell the difference between a valve amp and a tranny .)

Nonetheless we really need to wait til these hit the shops...

Cheers,
Tony