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GMC Forum _ CHILL OUT _ The Sad Truth...
Posted by: Xranthoius Jul 8 2007, 11:27 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=n_BTYg2-xMU
Warning: Graphic Images
Posted by: Layzer Jul 8 2007, 11:42 PM
sadly, that's not nearly as bad as some places are with cattle and some other animals...
Posted by: fkalich Jul 9 2007, 12:01 AM
Warning: Graphic Images
pretty much a reflection on what people are. i can understand the argument that the animals would not be alive otherwise. but the least we could do is require humane treatment (not feed lot existence) and come up with a kill where the animals never knew what hit them, did not know it was coming, did not have to experience that terror, such a horrible death, the terror they go though. but no, that would add to the cost. that is what is horrible about it, that the general public is so amoral that nobody cares about this, not when it might cost them a few bucks to do things differently. so they have a horrible life, and death in terror, not worth an extra 50 cents a pound to do otherwise, people have their priorities, have the $130 cable bill to pay, etc.
people tend to trash corporate culture for this kind of thing. i don't, people get served just what they want, and are not willing demand humane treatment of animals, not when it will cost them a bit.
it is bad enough. Americans sweep it under the rug. Pretend it is not there. As I understand it, England, other parts of Europe, don't have the feed lot mode of production, which is horrible, inhumane. If people cared, there would be laws. People don't care, they just pretend it doesn't happen. For the most part.
Posted by: GroovinMastiff Jul 9 2007, 12:47 AM
people tend to trash corporate culture for this kind of thing. i don't, people get served just what they want, and are not willing demand humane treatment of animals, not when it will cost them a bit.
it is bad enough. Americans sweep it under the rug. Pretend it is not there. As I understand it, England, other parts of Europe, don't have the feed lot mode of production, which is horrible, inhumane. If people cared, there would be laws. People don't care, they just pretend it doesn't happen. For the most part.
You're absolutely correct in saying that the majority of people don't care, I mean people don't want it to become "75 cent hamburger day", they've become accustomed to and look forward to "39 cent hamburger day", and they have no care as to why the burgers are so cheap, the fact that it's cheap food is all that matters.
Also, I'm not sure about the feedlot ban in Europe, but what I do know is that bovine growth hormone use was banned in Europe but not in the United States. The hormone causes cows to produce unnaturally large quantities of milk which leads to lower milk prices. And again most people won't want to pay the extra cents it would take per carton to support natural milk production.
And people wonder why North America has such a high incidence of medical conditions that are virtually non-existent in developing countries (e.g. mental conditions such as depression), it is my honest opinion that the junk that people put in their body is bound to have an effect on their mental state, I doubt nature intended for humans to eat all the chemical wonders that we find in today's food.
Posted by: JOhn Jul 9 2007, 01:10 AM
i find this offensive 
Some people might be frightened by this video it is pretty strange seeing animals killed that way.
Posted by: botoxfox Oct 21 2007, 05:31 AM
Sorry for bumping this thread, but I have an opinion to express... 
To be honest, I think that that must be the most biased PETA type of crap I've seen in a while (and don't take me wrong here, I despise stuff like fur farming etc.), but I really failed to see any real inhumane treatment in this video, since I know about these kind of things as I worked in the meat industry for 2 years.
The slaughtering of cows (and other animals like pigs etc.) may look brutal, but the fact is there is no way to make killing of animals look like a kids TV show. In that vid I didn't see even a needle touch the cows before after they were unconscious/killed. Also, stressing up animals before they are killed results in very poor quality meat.
And regarding the farming part... A farmer would want the most money out the animals he's/she's selling, so treating the animals badly wouldn't be a good idea, although sadly, this happens a lot in some parts of the world, but that's just because those farmers are f**king stupid...
Edit: typos
Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Oct 21 2007, 05:43 AM
To be honest, I think that that must be the most biased PETA type of crap I've seen in a while (and don't take me wrong here, I despise stuff like fur farming etc.), but I really failed to see any real inhumane tretment in this video, since I know about these kind of things as I worked in the meat industry for 2 years.
The slaughtering of cows (and other animals like pigs etc.) may look brutal, but the fact is there is no way to make killing of animals look like a kids TV show. In that vid I did'n see even a needle touch the cows before after they were non-conscious/killed. Also, stressing up animals before they are killed results in very poor quality meat.
And regarding the farming part... A farmer would want the most money out the animals he's selling so treating the animals badly wouldn't be a good idea, although sadly, this happens a lot in some parts of the world, but that's just because those farmers are f**king stupid...
Agreed ! Personally I think Its a part of life. Honestly can anyone in here say that if you were really really hungry that you wouldnt eat Bambi ?
Posted by: tonymiro Oct 21 2007, 06:56 AM
First - apologies all as I'm not going to be particularly nice in this - Andrew delete if you feel it offends.
As a teenager I worked on a farm where we killed and processed chickens and turkeys mainly for a big 'fast food' joint. From my experience it IS a nasty, dirty, disgusting and degrading job and not one that I could ever defend in any way as nice - either to the birds or the people who did the work. After about 4 weeks there you get to block the constant noise of the birds; you learn how to flip one so as to break its neck if it wasn't electricuted in the dip bath; you even get used to the smell of bird crap that sticks to your clothes and skin no matter how often you wash.
What I didn't get used to was the little acts of inhumanity that we showed each other on the farm. You get burnt out not just by being surrounded by death all the time but the sheer scale of it - believe me there is a big difference between killing one chicken and being involved in killing hundreds every day of the week. So just being a s*** to some animal or another person is all of a sudden small beer. One of my friends who worked a season there used to get drunk on pay day and go out and beat seven kinds of crap out of people for no other reason then he didn't care if they got hurt or if he did.
I guess what I'm coming round to is this - I choose not to eat in 'fast food' joints because I don't like their practices generally and more specifically in relation to the rearing, slaughtering and butchering of meat and from that the quality and 'healthiness' of it. If you eat what passes for meat in 'fast food' joints spend a month working in one of their slaughter houses and then make a decision on whether you think the video is hype. That's got nothing to do with being a vegan etc - I'm not, I eat and on occasion butcher the animal - where I live that is all part and parcel of living in the countryside. There is however a big difference to me with the humane treatment of animals -including for food - and the intensive farming and mass slaughter that serves the 'fast food' industry.
Would I eat Bambi? We hunt, butcher and eat fresh venison round here when it's in season. But I wouldn't eat a Bambi Burger from any of the 'fast food' joints.
Cheers,
Tony
Edited for language - Andrew
Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Oct 21 2007, 07:07 AM
As a teenager I worked on a farm where we killed and processed chickens and turkeys mainly for a big 'fast food' joint. From my experience it IS a nasty, dirty, disgusting and degrading job and not one that I could ever defend in any way as nice - either to the birds or the people who did the work. After about 4 weeks there you get to block the constant noise of the birds; you learn how to flip one so as to break its neck if it wasn't electricuted in the dip bath; you even get used to the smell of bird crap that sticks to your clothes and skin no matter how often you wash.
What I didn't get used to was the little acts of inhumanity that we showed each other on the farm. You get burnt out not just by being surrounded by death all the time but the sheer scale of it - believe me there is a big difference between killing one chicken and being involved in killing hundreds every day of the week. So just being a s*** to some animal or another person is all of a sudden small beer. One of my friends who worked a season there used to get drunk on pay day and go out and beat seven kinds of crap out of people for no other reason then he didn't care if they got hurt or if he did.
I guess what I'm coming round to is this - I choose not to eat in 'fast food' joints because I don't like their practices generally and more specifically in relation to the rearing, slaughtering and butchering of meat and from that the quality and 'healthiness' of it. If you eat what passes for meat in 'fast food' joints spend a month working in one of their slaughter houses and then make a decision on whether you think the video is hype. That's got nothing to do with being a vegan etc - I'm not, I eat and on occasion butcher the animal - where I live that is all part and parcel of living in the countryside. There is however a big difference to me with the humane treatment of animals -including for food - and the intensive farming and mass slaughter that serves the 'fast food' industry.
Would I eat Bambi? We hunt, butcher and eat fresh venison round here when it's in season. But I wouldn't eat a Bambi Burger from any of the 'fast food' joints.
Cheers,
Tony
Edited for language - Andrew
Another Great Point. I mean Im not some " Lets Kill Animals ! " Maniac but I do believe that there is no shame in having burgers, steak,veal and what not. However, Fast Food is slowly becoming more disgusting. Did you guys know that Taco Bell's meat is considered "D" Class Meat ?
Posted by: mattacuk Oct 21 2007, 07:16 AM
That is a Very good post actually Tony - it made me stop and think about how food gets to fast food resteraunts - ive never really considered it in the past!
Posted by: SLASH91 Oct 21 2007, 08:22 AM
Mmmm...but Taco Bell is so good.
But really, I completely agree with you. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with eating meat. Unless the animals are treated extremely cruelly. And, yeah, Peta is just a load of crap. The inhumane treatment of animals in our society is a problem, but they focus more on the "don't even eat meat factor" than the actual cruelity that occurs like that of which Tonymiro was talking about.
Posted by: RobM Oct 21 2007, 09:17 AM
Warning: Graphic Images
Sorry but I find that this kind of thing, no matter if it's in the off topic discussioins thread section or not, has no place being on a guitar site, just as I feel pushing a religion or a politicial topic has no business being on here either. For the most part people here have tried to keep this place alive and fun, what is fun about this or any or the other topics i've mentioned? I think regardless of how you feel about certain things they are nonetheless a downer and have no place here!
I come here to unwind and relax, not to get bombarded with imagines that make me think even more about the bad things in life.
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 21 2007, 10:09 AM
I agree with RobM - I personally have no interest in this kind of thread on a guitar site and definitely wouldn't be reading it if I wasn't a moderator.
Having said that, as long as people keep their heads it isn't breaking any forum rules so I'm not going to do anything about it other than express the earnest wish that this thread dies and doesn't get resurrected again (I was glad to see it go the last time).
Posted by: fkalich Oct 21 2007, 11:46 AM
But really, I completely agree with you. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with eating meat. Unless the animals are treated extremely cruelly. And, yeah, Peta is just a load of crap. The inhumane treatment of animals in our society is a problem, but they focus more on the "don't even eat meat factor" than the actual cruelity that occurs like that of which Tonymiro was talking about.
The Peta bit is nonsense, they have little impact. The Humane Society is the organization behind animal welfare rights. Very powerful lobby, as powerful as the Gun lobby. All recent changes, such as making animal fighting a federal crime, the slaughtering of horses for meat, stopping people from being forced to abandon their animals in an emergency (such as New Orleans), all the federal changes in animal welfare rights are due to their influence, and the supporters (such as myself). They are not radical, but if you are on their mailing list, you will be informed of what is going on, and may find that you yourself would feel better paying a bit more for food, if that meant that farm animals are given a more humane existence than they are given now (to keep prices rock bottom low).
Wendys has blocked emails from Humane Society members. Burger King is making changes to phase in more humane practices. Make your choice. I rarely eat fast food myself. And not a lot of meat. More than 6 oz a day is unhealthy anyway, even for training athletes.
Posted by: Ryan Oct 21 2007, 12:01 PM
Also, I'm not sure about the feedlot ban in Europe, but what I do know is that bovine growth hormone use was banned in Europe but not in the United States. The hormone causes cows to produce unnaturally large quantities of milk which leads to lower milk prices. And again most people won't want to pay the extra cents it would take per carton to support natural milk production.
And people wonder why North America has such a high incidence of medical conditions that are virtually non-existent in developing countries (e.g. mental conditions such as depression), it is my honest opinion that the junk that people put in their body is bound to have an effect on their mental state, I doubt nature intended for humans to eat all the chemical wonders that we find in today's food.
39 cent hamburgers, WHERE DO YOU LIVE?!?!?!?!?
This is a way better alternative than being eaten by another animal, or being road kill!!!
Plus, we are the superior beings on this planet. If they were im sure they would do the same things to us.
Posted by: Soul_Decision Oct 21 2007, 12:05 PM
Lol, what Ryan said. Don't forget we're a part of nature's design also.
Posted by: swingline Oct 21 2007, 12:09 PM
I find it to be natural and not that big of a deal. Plus Even if Taco Bell had "F" grade meat (if theres a such thing) I'd eat it because its damn good. Also its not like the cows are in a cage made of barbed wire that is six inches bigger than its body. As far as I've seen here in the US cows aren't treated like royalty like in India but they are still in pretty good quarters. I'd rather have the lower prices and have things stay the way they are.
Posted by: Kizaze44 Oct 21 2007, 12:09 PM
For those who are interested, you might find this book fascinating, as I did:
THE OMNIVORE'S DILEMNA
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dilemma-Natural-History-Meals/dp/1594200823
Basically, it details the "industrialization" of food in the USA (and coming near you, the rest of the world), and it's mind-blowing.
-Kiz
Posted by: Soul_Decision Oct 21 2007, 12:11 PM
L O L, +1
Posted by: Animosity Oct 21 2007, 01:36 PM
I watched this video and then went out and got a burger from McDonalds.
Posted by: GroovinMastiff Oct 21 2007, 01:50 PM
This is a way better alternative than being eaten by another animal, or being road kill!!!
Plus, we are the superior beings on this planet. If they were im sure they would do the same things to us.
I live in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada. It's a smallish town with a population of about 45,000 people and is the capital of New Brunswick.
I doubt the 39 cent burger still exists. That price is taken from a promotion McDonalds used to have about five or six years ago - which was last time I ate at that place - on a particular day of the week (don't remember which one now). I'm not sure if they still have those types of "deals" or if the public has simply become content in paying exorbitant prices for questionable food; if they have, I suppose that makes McDonalds' job all the more easier.
As far as being a better alternative to being eaten by another animal or in being road kill - we humans are animals as well - I don't think a cow, or a chicken, or what have you can distinguish between being killed by one animal (or one animal's tire in the case of road kill) or another, all it knows is that its life is in danger and it doesn't give a damn whether it will eaten by a human or a dinosaur or a platypus.
"Superior beings" is a relative term. Perhaps in terms of neural function, we are the most complex. But humans have only been on the earth for about 250,000 years, and there are other species (e.g. various snakes, insects and reptiles such as the alligator and the cockroach) who have been around for millions of years longer than us, and have survived conditions we can barely imagine. It's likely that as time goes on, and conditions on the earth change, these other species will have a far greater chance of adapting to (and thus of surviving) conditions that we would find hostile. So, really, there is no such thing as a superior species, there are far too many factors to consider in what makes a species superior.
As to whether the cow, chicken etc. would do the same to us if they were above us in terms of brain complexity, I guess we'll never know, and can only make inferences on what it would be like if the tables were turned.
-Parth.
Posted by: fkalich Oct 21 2007, 02:58 PM
good stuff. To me it is a matter of compassion. Like a lot of other things. The issue is not whether you eat meat or not. It is having compassion. Maybe you eat the animals, but you have compassion for the animal, an and respect it. But I believe that by the time people are maybe 18, things like that are set. Some have compassion, with others, well, they are on the level of rodents for the most part. That is all they know, rodent world. Show them anything of enlightened value, they will just poop on it. That is what they are.
I don't think our species has been around that long, I thought it was 100,000 or so? Well I could look it up. But clearly anthropological evidence indicates that hunting is fairly recent, we have been gatherers and scavengers for the most part, our species and those that preceded it, for millions of years. So anybody who wants to be natural, go find some road kill.
Posted by: GroovinMastiff Oct 21 2007, 03:40 PM
I don't think our species has been around that long, I thought it was 100,000 or so? Well I could look it up. But clearly anthropological evidence indicates that hunting is fairly recent, we have been gatherers and scavengers for the most part, our species and those that preceded it, for millions of years. So anybody who wants to be natural, go find some road kill.
Exactly. I myself eat meat almost everyday, but I never touch that fast food stuff anymore. It's just a matter of being cruel or not. I have no objection to eating meat from animals who were raised and killed in a way that limited their suffering as much as possible.
As for how long we've been here, it seems that some evolutionary biologists take different views from others, and indeed, many say we've been here for about 100,000 years. It'll be great to see the timescale get more and more refined as more evidence starts to pop up.
As far as some people and enlightenment are concerned, I have my own views on that as well...but that is a discussion for another time and place.
Anyway, I'm glad to see people who think about issues like this...and now I'm off to bed as it is 4:00am over here
Posted by: fkalich Oct 21 2007, 04:11 PM
I am a little behind here, read a lot of anthropology earlier, but not much lately. see what wikipedia says.
looks like you are probably closer to the truth, it was a bit further back, I am seeing 200,000 now as the "estimate de jure."
You are not from the US, but I am from Kansas, and it is well known that our state is now 6,011 years old.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/world-born-4004-bc
Posted by: botoxfox Oct 21 2007, 06:53 PM
Having said that, as long as people keep their heads it isn't breaking any forum rules so I'm not going to do anything about it other than express the earnest wish that this thread dies and doesn't get resurrected again (I was glad to see it go the last time).
Sorry...
I just felt compelled to express myself on this...
Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Oct 21 2007, 09:16 PM
I just felt compelled to express myself on this...Its ok, what I said above was my personal opinion (when I am moderating I post in bold italics!), as moderator I just care that this doesn't degrade into a slanging match ...
Posted by: SLASH91 Oct 22 2007, 06:14 AM
Wendys has blocked emails from Humane Society members. Burger King is making changes to phase in more humane practices. Make your choice. I rarely eat fast food myself. And not a lot of meat. More than 6 oz a day is unhealthy anyway, even for training athletes.
Hmm, never heard of them, sounds better than PETA though. And yeah, I know fast food is HORRIBLE for you, but so is most anything that you buy from the grocery store unless it's 100% organic. I think I eat pretty healthy ,because even though I do eat fast food alot due to my job, I eat an organic salad pretty much every day and drink carrot juice
Oh, and The reason I despise PETA so much is because of signs and ads that I see around my city. An example of one of these was one which showed a picture of a dog with a fish hook in his mouth and a caption saying something ridiculous like- " you wouldn't do this to a dog, why do it to a fish?".
Things like this just piss me off to no end.
Posted by: botoxfox Oct 22 2007, 06:34 AM
Yeah, PETA are way to extreme.
And there's also a lot of stupid extremist "animal friends" around. Recently, where I live, a few of them blew up a truck belonging to a company that delivers animal feed to a fur farm.
It could have gotten quite bad since there was a lot of amonia tubes for cooling near the truck they blew up, so it could have ended with a mass poisoning of the surrounding area.
Posted by: SLASH91 Oct 22 2007, 06:39 AM
And there's also a lot of stupid extremist "animal friends" around. Recently, where I live, a few of them blew up a truck belonging to a company that delivers animal feed to a fur farm.
It could have gotten quite bad since there was a lot of amonia tubes for cooling near the truck they blew up, so it could have ended with a mass poisoning of the surrounding area.
Man, that is way extreme. I hope we don't ever have anything like that around here.
Posted by: botoxfox Oct 22 2007, 06:46 AM
Yeah, they're not really thinking of what they're doing.
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