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Posted by: MickeM Jan 5 2010, 09:04 PM

I remember when Bugera (new amp brand from Behringer) showed up in the news as a new amp to be released at killer price.
People had high hopes but short after they were released music dealers started to report quality issues. Bugeras were dropping like flies according to them.

Dealers put a bad quality stamp on Bugera.

Users have reported about some plastic connetor inside that break. A standard error that according what I've read has been corrected in mid 2008 by soldering wired instead of using that plastic connector.

I've not read so many reports from Bugera users who claim quality is bad. Mostly it's people who by hearsay tell others Bugera amps break. I too would warn people about what I've heard. No smoke without a fire, right? Assumin many others do the same we'd end up with a whole lot of people trash talking Bugera based on what they've heard or read somewhere.

Thomann took it out of stock a couple months ago.

Current status is that a lot of people are talking it down, dealer(s) won't carry it and many many see it as lottery getting one.


Before I continue I will take a side track here.
In November I was on the look for a noise gate pedal from Behringer. Not one store in Stockholm had it in stock. All I heard was "too low quality, get this instead" and I was suggested to get one five times more expensive. Two stores refused to order one for me and one claimed the lead time would be 8-12 weeks before I had it.

Why is that? I recalled a cnversation I had with a music store owner some years ago when Behringer pedals were released. He said they didn't want to carry these pedals at all but the head office foreced them. Ofc I wanted to know what was wrong with the pedals, was it quality issues? No, he said, they work just fine; but we don't make any money on them.

A-ha! Cheap pedals, small winnings, bad business concidering you could sell a more expensive pedal and make more money.

Back to Bugera. Cheap amps, small winnings, bad business etc. Surely they'd rather sell a Marshall or a Peavey than a Bugera. Better for business.

Who started bad mouthing this brand? I were following forums back then when Bugera first was released and dealers were reporting their bad quality and others joined spreading the word.
Questions now are
- was there bad quality at the beginning?
- is there still or did quality get better after the first batch?

Either way the bad rep still lives on. What if the bad rep is all faulty, the day people will swear by Bugera's good quality is the day price will double. The latter would be in the interest of the stores talking it down at present, but I think they just don't think that far. Business is now, today. If Bugera is stealing market shares by selling cheap that's their problem, not something dealers want to help them with since it's bad business today.


Intersting to find out what you think of the brand?
My point is as described, maybe there infact was faults with it from the beginning but that passed. The bad reputation lives as long as stores rather earn more from selling a Marshall than the Bugera with lower margins.
I don't know anyone who owns a Bugera so I don't have any information first hand. So I can only belive, I don't know for sure.

So post your thoughts and what you base it on. Hearsay or first hand information.
Any further speculations?
Anyone who knows for a fact? Anyone who owns one? That'd be intersting.

Posted by: Staffy Jan 5 2010, 09:12 PM

Not quite on Bugera, but I had several Behringer stuff (mixers, pedals, a tube pre-amp), and that is imo. just bad quality - and it even doesn't sound good...

//Staffay

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 5 2010, 09:23 PM

I have heard several Behringer products and I didn't like the sound of any of them. Also their stuff doesn't seem to be very reliable, our bassplayer busted his behringer tuner by stepping to hard on it; another band I know had blown their behringer vocals monitors...

Bugera Amps sound very good, they are all copies of famous amps and they come extremely close to the original's sound but the quality is extremely bad! Knobs fall off, knobs cease to function - and all that happened while I was in the store playing it!!!
You also hear that they get retourned very often because of major problems, especially the first production run.

Posted by: Marc_Maiden Jan 5 2010, 09:28 PM

I remember reading somewhere (not sure where) that they got better in quality.

I almost bought one but went with blackstar for noise reasons.


in all honesty, it is a good amp if you know how to fix the "small" problems that may come with it. that is true for many other chinese made products.


if know how to spray contact cleaner, or know how to solder a wire, then you should be fine since these are the small problems you hear most about with bugera.

i think for the price it has a great sound but because its chinese and they cut a few corners with it, it suffers in quality.

Posted by: MickeM Jan 5 2010, 09:49 PM

Yes, also heard of knobs falling off but like I said before, if stores don't want to sell this brand in the first place it's a clever idea to put a broken amp in the store for test playing. Who'd buy a Bugera if they fall to pieces already in the store?


My Blackstar is made in Korea. Peavey Windsor, one on the cheaper side without the bad rep is made in China.

I understand they are very true to the amp they were carbon copied from, more on sound than looks.


EDIT: My Blackstar HT5 head was replaced since the headphone jack was a mono one instead of stereo. Clearly a production issue where one mono jack fell into the stereo jack bucket. The stereo jack has more connections for both the tip and sleve so mixing them up is difficult incase you know what you're doing. How they managed to solder the mono jack in place in the first place without reacting (man OR machine) is a huge questionmark. But the one I got in return has been working just fine, works great.
Might be a litte hint on what goes down in the asian factories. More action than know how. No surprise the first batch will suffer until they get the quality assureance set.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 5 2010, 11:57 PM

I don't think that it's the dealers to blame, these amps simply have bad reputation, same as with other Behringer gear. If they don't earn money on Behr stuff, it's because people really don't want to buy them. And regarding the small price-small profit theory, I think it's not true. Stores sell low-priced Marshalls/Peaveys in vast quantities to young players. Every player that wants to get a tube amp knows that he has to invest lot of money into one. So I guess people think that 500e Bugera head is not worth it, it's better to get a smaller tube amp for the same price, like a Fender or Peavey combo. At least that's what I would do (I wouldn't get Peavey tho).
The bottom line is that dealers don't want to invest in 500e heads that will collect dust in the stores. The stores take what they can sell right away, and we all know what people like to buy - an amp that says Marshall or Fender (even tho, these amps of today don't deserve to carry that name).
Another point on Behr gear, I had and still use several devices of Behr: preamps and DI's usually. They work fine, for the price you cannot beat it. Sure there is better gear, but if you need something fast and cheap, you cannot beat Behringer. It only pays out to get really small and cheap stuff from them. Also, not all is good, for example MIC800 is the worst mic preamp I ever heard, it's practically throwing away money. On the other hand, I use Ultra-G DI with cab emulation for silent rehearsals to go straight into mixer, and it works great for that. For 25e you cannot beat it!

Posted by: MickeM Jan 6 2010, 01:15 AM

A bad reputation has to spring from somewhere. The stuff I read as these amps were released were bad reviews from dealers. Not from users who supposedly returned these amps. Most of the bad mouthing comes from ppl who heard they are bad. Less from the actual users.
Could also spring from that they really are of bad quality.


Like I said, the talk about small margin and no profit on Behringer pedals in specific came from a music store owner.
I know for a fact, running a toy store, that what you want in products is high margin. Small priced products are what sell the best and what earns you the money. Most people are looking for small toys and irregulary you sell a 100€ box of Lego but that's not often at all.
I doubt the music stores work any different. Since I now know Behringer pedals have a low margin and Bugera are way too cheap for tube amps I can confident say that the margin on there are very ver low. No music store in the world would like to sell to that margin, they rather sell an expensive tube amp.


Yes they do, but for sure the margin on a MG is descent for the seller. No matter the price is low (infact it's not low but it's affordable to the buyer) still there's a margin = money earned.
I'm not so sure tube amp buyers are willing to cough up €1200 for a Marshall JVM when they can get away with €350 for a Bugera 1990 that sounds like a Marshall. It's a lot of money, especially if you're young. Buying a Bugera to save that much money must be tempting to anyone that can't afford an expensive amp or who has his/her mind set on a certain amp and won't settle for less.
You're an experienced musician and I don't think what you'd do applies to the huge mass of consumers of amps. They have other values and less experience and I'm sure price is a heavy factor in deciding upon what to buy.


Yes! The stores wants to sell right away! But the bottom line really is that dealers don't want to invest in €500 heads they don't earn a high margin from. It's all about the money. If the Bugera has a margin of 5% and a €1500 amp has 30% (a reasonable margin) you'd have to sell 18 Bugeras to cover for one Marshall JVM410. That I think is the main reason dealers don't want these. It's just ridicilous business with the Bugera amps pricing. Not that they would be collecting dust.



-------------------

if someone has a buddy in a music store and could ask for the margins on a Marshall MG, JVM and a Bugera that would be interesting to know.
Maybe Bugera left the marging to the stores and are taking the loss the first year(s) though I doubt it.

The guys in my store doesn't carry neither Bugera nor Marshall. They swear by Marshalls crapiness and refuse to stock them

Posted by: ZakkWylde Jan 6 2010, 01:21 AM

My store has both Marshall and Bugera and the win margins are good on both of them!

They earn literally nothing on Fender, Ibanez, Jackson and Peavey. They wouldn't even have those brands but the customers demand them!

Posted by: MickeM Jan 6 2010, 01:26 AM

Cool, can you ask the one who told you that to hand you the exact figures? cheap MG, JVM and a 100W Bugera for a comparance.
Because if the margin on Bugera infact is ok then there's another issue with them. Closest at hand, quality. And they just don't want to punish their customers with crap.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 6 2010, 02:02 AM

yeah, I understand what you mean, and the Lego comparison is really not needed for me to understand the problem, in fact it got me confused a bit, because we are talking about bigger priced complex devices here that do not share the same decision making when buying. The bad mouthing about Behringer is not something that is made up, we are ALL aware that their products are bad. Why should a Bugera 120W feature-packed all tube head that costs 350e be any different? Is that the true price of this kind of a head?

Posted by: audiopaal Jan 6 2010, 09:16 AM

I have to agree and disagree with some opinions here...
I haven't tried Bugera so I won't comment on that, but I've tried a few Behringer products with different outcomes

To say all Behringer products are bad, are nonsense in my opinion.
Yes, they don't last as long because build quality is below par, but you get what you pay for.
They're usually VERY cheap and some of their products sound pretty good

We've been using one of their larger format digital mixers for concerts with local youth bands,
and I've been impressed with the quality and versatility of it.
The effects sounds pretty good too!

Their stompboxes I've never liked, poor sound and plastic.
For the price you probably can't complain, but I'd never buy them

Their powered loudspeakers I've only heard on a few occasions, but I never thought of it as bad to be honest.

Their most expensive studio monitors also sounded good to my ears,
although I've only heard hem on various occasions in a friends home studio.

Their professional audio products in rack format, like EQs, Compressors, Exciters etc.,
which I've tested have been very different in quality in my opinion.
Some were pretty good, and some were pretty bad.

Of course, this is my opinion and some of you might disagree..
But considering the price they sell this for, you can't really complain

Posted by: MickeM Jan 6 2010, 01:33 PM

Ok, I thought the comparision was valid since a consumer isn't richer or poorer when it comes to music gear compared to other areas.
I've heard Behringer is bad. Our band owns a mixer (don't know the brand of the rest of the PA, maybe Behringer also) which hasn't failed us ever, I used to have a EQ pedal from Behringer. Sounded ok but was so plastic I got rid of it. Never broke though. So I have no real own experience from bad quality there, just what others have said.

I don't know if it's the true price of an amp. Depends on if other brands are overprised. I can't answer you on that for sure. In the end, to be able to sell anything it's the stores themselves who has to make a profit if any market what so ever should exist. They have to make certain profit on certain products to survive. If the agent of a brand tells them to sell a product for €350 they don't have much choise.
Sure, they could try and sell it for €1000 but my guess is that won't sell one single amp.


Most true. Though in this Bugera case I spun off thinking it's low price during the introduction. Now that must be prolonged until they get a good quality stamp since they are fighting the bad quality reputation and can't really double the price.

Kenwoon did the same thing when they were introduced as a new brand in Sweden. Went with low price for a year until ppl knew the brand and knew the quality was good. They never had to fight a bad quality reputation though and I'm sure they took the loss themselves since deales have zero margin on TV, Hi-Fi etc and make their earnings from insurances and loan interest.

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 6 2010, 03:04 PM

I'm sorry if I was a bit out of line in the previous post, I don't really think all Behr products are bad giving in respect price/performance ratios (couple of posts before I stated this as well), in fact I agree with everybody on all things about individual devices. Behr products are indeed great for the price, but I still believe they are bad, since such a small price has to bring low quality in one way or another. Usually it's either the tone of reliability issues, or both in some degree. But as Paal said - who can complain?

Now regarding Bugera, since I don't have any first hand experience, I tried to find circuit pics on the web of Bugera amps, and this is what I could find, so we can perhaps draw some conclusions based on this pic everybody. I don't want to jump into conclusions, since I haven't actually worked with the head, but I can spot here some construction solutions that are generally not reliable. This doesn't mean that automatically whole amp is unreliable, could be working just great, but lets hear some opinions. Micke I consider you a guy who knows his amps, what do you think about it?

Posted by: tonymiro Jan 6 2010, 03:20 PM

Behringer tends to be slated a lot on a number of forums, and as you said Micke it is often based on hearsay rather than actual personal experience.

To give one example - on one pro live PA forum someone said that they were considering buying a Behringer ADA mic preamp as it has remote. Cue about 300 posts (not an exaggeration) from various people all saying that Behringer are rubbish. All these were based on hearsay when anyone said that they hd a Behringer ADA pre they got flamed. As the thread progressed (last I saw it was over 20 pages) the OP asked for alternate suggestions to the Behringer - all the recommendations were for pro preamps that cost well over 1000USD, and in some cases cost 5000-10000USD. At this point someone suggested that a lot of the anti-Behringer feeling was based on a denial that a 200USD pre could be better value-for-money as a 10000USD one.

Part of being a pro-audio engineer is that you use expensive pro equipment rather than consumer grade, cheaper stuff. Part of being a pro Mastering Engineer is the same - we use expensive monitors etc. The cost of the equipment acts in several different ways: it marks you as 'professional'; it stops anyone from having access to it because of the cost; it stops you switching to other stuff because you invest a lot of money in it. (If you want this in Business/Management speak it's part of Michael Porter's 5 Force Model - cost of entry, cost of substitution, cost of retreat.)

Part of what you pay for when you hire a pro-engineer (or pro-ME) is that they use expensive equipment (lets ignore issues of experience etc). You essentially rent their Midas/SSL4000/SADiE/Whatever for an hourly rate. For 25+ Euros an hour you get me plus all my kit. Would you pay 25+ Euros an hour to a guy who does all their mastering in Isotope/T-Racks/Whatever (maybe not a good example as this happens a lot)?

In reverse how would I justify 25+ Euros an hour if I was using a 200USD plug-in to master - anyone wanting to master an album could buy the plug-in for less than they would pay me. Similarly how can you justify renting out a Behringer preamp for live work? It's easy to just renting out a Midas for a few hundred a gig... (If you apply the same breakeven rate to a Behringer as to the Midas then you'd be renting out the Behringer for maybe 5USD for an evening. I doubt any would take you seriously if you offered anything at that rate.)

Someone also made the point that if a Behringer pre went wrong you junk it and replace with a new one - cost 200USD. If a Lavry Gold (10000 USD) goes wrong you have it repaired - cost very often much more than 200USD.

WRT to Bugera - and this includes myself - most guitar players have GAS and aspire to owning, or own, a Mesa/Dumble/VHT etc. It perhaps doesn't sit well with that if a Bugera offers better value for money... Just my 2cents .

Posted by: MickeM Jan 6 2010, 03:53 PM

I'm no expert on amp's inside except for my share of electric spraying that I've done Not more educated stuff than that. But I can see it's nothing like the ones I've opened up where the closest in size to a 100W Bugera is the JCM800 I used to have, which looked fine inside.

The Bugera looks very untidy. The quick connectors I think we'd find in any amp that's not ptp.


Btw, I've contacted three of Germany's large music stores. Two have replied that Bugera for a fact breaks a lot. The third hasn't answered yet. Still, doesn't proove anything unless we know the other ingredient. The margin.

Posted by: Daniel Realpe Jan 6 2010, 05:04 PM

wow, that's pretty bad,

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 6 2010, 06:28 PM

I have no more information about the topic, but you got me interested in the Bugera margin issue Micke. I'm going into music store tomorrow where they hold Behringer in general, and will try to find out some more info about the Bugera sales and quality from the staff. If there's time, I'll try to test one head too, this way I could make some comparison, not that precise, but I will have some point of reference. I'll post my observations tomorrow.

Posted by: MickeM Jan 6 2010, 06:35 PM

Great initiative! A couple "Marshalls" are Bugera 1990 vs JCM 900 or Bugera 1960 vs Marshall 1959
Let's hope you find the time to get some further information from them

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 7 2010, 01:05 PM

Small update: I will go tomorrow into store, because today is big religious day here, so nothing is working (and I was really hoping to go )

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 8 2010, 05:34 PM

I've been to the store today, and they had only Bugera 333 head left in the store. During the holidays, they sold the other two that were laying there, and the guy that works there told me he didn't receieve any complaints about them (it didn't past too long time from the purchase tho).
here's the head:



Unfortunately, suspicion came true, you really get what you pay for. The head is pumping out strong volume, but the sound is adequate to the pricing I must say. Clean channel is the best of the 3, and it has a nice warm quality to it, but this is generally scooped head, so I'm not sure how it will sound in live situations, my guess is that it will sound thin.
As for crunch and lead channels, they are not good. Buzzy, boomy and scooped in general. EQ is reacting very well, it can alter the tone quite a bit, but I found most of it's settings not usable. It has plenty of drive and plenty of volume (120W!?), and I cranked it as much as I could to get the sound to open, but it was not possible, it just remained muddy, and colored the guitar tone a lot. I used Strat 62 reissue guitar (awesome axe btw), to play this amp. Reverb was not good for me too, hollow and without any character at all. All in all, the head doesn't deliver a pleasant sound, it is built for metal, but it doesn't deliver pleasant sounds for that as well. They lack character, and precision.
No in terms of reliability, I'm not sure, but the head doesn't feel nowhere like it is on the picture above. The knobs are very cheap and light plastic, and the whole head built doesn't look sturdy at all, lots of plastic and cheapness. So the price is very adequate to what it gives. There is ofc some price cutting because of the negative image of the brand, but now when I tested this head, I think it's justified. Perhaps Behr in the future will become a brand like Peavey is now, but until then, they have to do a bit more quality products. Again, for the price, Behr rules, so this is the main reason why anyone would buy it, but I would suggest (and the guy I spoke with) is to buy a smaller wattage tube amp for the same price, like Night Train, or anything else. It's a lot different, but at least it's decent, and it can be cranked. Live use requires a sturdy head, and you have to pay for sturdiness too.

Posted by: MickeM Jan 8 2010, 05:51 PM

Great review of the amp Ivan. I would have gussed that the chassi was plastic, like Zakk said knobs were falling off. But I would have expected more of the sound. That model is a copy of Peavey XXL I belive (and that other similar looking amp of JSX, or the other way around)
Zakk's experience of the sound was different. An other model maybe. Or the models shift a lot between eachother and don't sound the same.

People on youtube, one who traded his 5250 for the Bugera ripoff claiming it sounded better, they raise the amps to the sky such as great sound for less price.
But then, maybe it's not only the chassi where they saved money but also used cheaper parts inside.

How good the quality is still remains an issue then. Perhaps you can ask next time your inte store if the got the newly sold Bugeras back

Posted by: audiopaal Jan 8 2010, 06:26 PM

Thanks a lot for the review Ivan!!

Posted by: Sensible Jones Jan 8 2010, 06:44 PM

I am visiting a friend tomorrow who is a Behringer Dealership. I'll ask him about all of this tomorrow and see what he has to say!!
Hopefully I'll get a chance to have a close look at some of these Amps as I haven't got that close to one yet!!


Micke, I'll be back to tell you what I think of them!

Posted by: MickeM Jan 8 2010, 08:13 PM

Looing forward to it, put the thumb screws on him!

Posted by: MirkoSchmidt Jan 8 2010, 08:45 PM

Yeah, i agree with that. i was in a store, because i really want to buy that amp! i had the money with me, because i was sure to get one. I want a tube amp, and that was the cheapest one i found and i has read some good feedback in the world wide web before!
i was in the store and i played that amp 2 minutes and i was sure, that i`ll never buy that amp!
I really not a good player and i havent much knowlege about that stuff, but i didnt like that sound! it sounds really flashy. i swear that sound hurts my ears when i was playing!
I cant say why, but that amp sounds cheap for me! cheap in the badest meaning...

Posted by: audiopaal Jan 9 2010, 02:59 AM

Thanks for your opinion as well, I've never tried a Bugera.
I'd never buy one for sure, as I'm used to Engl, Bogner, Marshall, Vox and Reinhardt's

But always good to see some opinions on other amps, as that'll help me recommend amps to other people.
I won't recommend this one for sure

I'm glad someone takes the time to test it though

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 9 2010, 05:13 PM

I will in the future test another of these heads if I find them, one head doesn't mean they are all bad sounding ofc, but from what I tested, it was enough to convince me that this one stands for its pricing in a very unbalanced way. Also, getting a proper voiced cab for the head is equally important, so perhaps the good ol 1960 cab wasn't good for that particular head.
So people who don't have money for buying proper tube head, should IMHO stay away from this head. It just doesn't feel right giving 550$ for something that does not do the job well. The clean channel was decent, as long as it was clean, distortion was messy, so practically all of the pricing go for the decent clean channel. For the money, I think there can be found a better tube amp, sure it will be smaller wattage no doubt, but at least all the variables will be included in the price with a higher degree of balance between each other.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Jan 9 2010, 07:25 PM

OK, I just got back from my friends Shop where I played around with the 333, the 333XL, the 6260 and the 6262 (both through the matched 412H-BK 4x12 Cab).

I haven't got time to write a full report at this moment as I have to go to work, but I will fill you in with my thoughts tomorrow with a little surprise too!!!

Posted by: jdriver Jan 9 2010, 11:53 PM

Great, leave us all hanging...

Hey! What's wrong with Peavey combos? The Classic series has a pretty good reputation, and I love my Delta Blues.

Posted by: MickeM Jan 10 2010, 12:06 AM

Oh no you didn't!!! You bought one! I'm guessing the 1960


...or from what I've heard so far it's more likely one blew up in your face

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 10 2010, 01:48 AM

Nothing wrong with them mate.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Jan 10 2010, 02:54 PM

No, not quite!!

Well, let's start at the beginning...
Although I got to play with quite a lot of things yesterday I didn't get a massive amount of time with it all as the Shop was really busy for some reason and I ended up helping my friend and his Staff selling stuff etc. I did get enough time to form an opinion of each Amp, so in order of play were:-
The 333.
This one comes equipped with 4 12AX7 valves in the pre-amp and 4 6L6 valves in the Power Amp side.

Using a PRS Custom 24 the 'cleans' in this Amp a really pleasing with a lot of scope for tonal variety. You can get jangly (almost 12 string sounding) bright tones through to some fairly dark Bluesy style cleans, with a Strat and a Compressor you could get that Texan style very easily. Going into the 'crunch' channel, it also delivers great tones from slightly dirty through to quite heavily driven sounds. However once the gain gets past about 6 it starts sounding a bit 'thin' and not as 'full bodied' as you'd expect with an Amp of this nature. Next there's the 'Lead' channel which is basically the same as the Crunch but with a heavier Gain. Although this Channel is full of gain it didn't deliver the soaring sort of lead tone you'd want to be able to use in conjunction with the PRS. It's almost impossible for an amp to make one of these PRS's sound muddled and woolly but this amp managed it!!
I tried it with an EMG loaded Explorer and it was a very similar story. Anything heavier than Metallica and it's just not 'fat' enough.

The 333XL.
Same valve set-up as the 333. The XL bit means that you get an in-built Presence control as well as a Noise Gate.

Using the PRS again. Well, sound-wise it performed in a very similar way to the 333. Great cleans which stay clear even when you begin to dirty it up a little, but as with the 333 when you start getting into heavily dirty tones it doesn't deliver in the way that you'd expect. Tried it again with the Explorer and the same story applies.

Would I buy either?
To be perfectly honest I don't think I would BUT I would like to hear them loaded with EL34's instead of the 6L6's. Personally I think the High Gain settings would really sound a lot better for this conversion.

My friend has these priced at £352 (E394) for the 333 and £420 (E470) for the XL.

Now to the Heads! Same Guitars etc! both played through the 'Voice matched' 412H-BK 4x12 Cab.

The 6260
This has 5 12AX7 valves in the Pre-amp and 4 6L6's in the Power-amp.
Yet again, great clean tones. It's very similar sounding to the smaller 333's and behaves in a very similar way too. In all respects! Unfortunately, when you start pushing it too far in the Gain stakes it just doesn't deliver what you'd expect. The main difference between this and the Combos is that by using the 4x12 Cab it does make the whole amp sound more 'airy' or 'light' which benefits any clean settings.
Just using a DD3 and a Chorus pedal with the clean channel had me smiling! Seriously! You could do impressions of the Edge for days with this thing!! It really does justice to the PRS.
It has slightly different switching options to the 6262.

The 6262
Has 6 12AX7 and 4 6L6's.
Exactly the same as the 6260 except that it has separate Reverb and Presence controls for the Lead and Crunch channels.
Soundwise it delivers exactly the same way as the 6260 and only differs in that you have these extra controls for sound shaping.
Really nice cleans/crunch but just doesn't have the Cajones when in High Gain mode.

It's a real shame! As with the Combos I would like to play these loaded with EL34's as I really believe that it would give the High Gain end a bit of a boost and fatten it up! But maybe not enough?

Price for these is £320 (E358) for the 6260 and £382 (E428) for the 6262 add on the 412H-BK at £198 (E222) and you can see that you are going to be around the £600 bracket. Personally I think I'd save a bit extra and go for something else or use that £600 for a high quality 2x12 Combo.

Now the Build Quality. I'll just comment on all 4 overall.
In my mind they all feel 'light' and not as robust as you'd think by looking at them. The front facia panels look and feel thin and 'plasticy', there's no weight to the knobs and I could see over adjustment becoming an issue (especially in a live situation), you just need to touch up the treble a little and suddenly it's over the top. All in all not great, BUT very reasonable for the price.
The 4x12 cab was very nicely put together and looked and felt like it could take a few years of Gigging before falling apart!
Also the Footswitch seemed sturdy enough to be trodden on a few times too!!

So, my overall impression of these is this:-
They seem to be a bit confused as to what they want to be! They try to be a High Gain Metal Monster and fall very, very short!
If, on the other hand, you want an Amp for 'Brit Pop', 60's and 70's style Rock (Think Vox, Orange) then you could do worse, seriously! For that kind of clean playing these would be ideal with enough bite for some lead and enough grunt for some Classic Rock too.

As for his Profit Margins on these? Well, he wouldn't go into too much financial detail but did say that his Mark-up on these is obviously not as high a percentage as he makes on more well known brands! He did also mention that he hasn't had a single one returned for any faults!

Now, onto the SURPRISE!!!!!
It's this:-

It's the Ashton Blue Tongue 100H!!
This is only a 2 Channel amp, but it is loaded with 3 12AX7, 1 AT7 + 3 AU7's in the Pre-amp and 4 EL34's in the Power-amp!!
It has a proper Spring Reverb too!!!
This thing is MAD!!!!! Absolutely everything from sparkly cleans through to Earth shattering High Gain and all handled awesomely!!
Admittedly it's a tad more expensive than the Bugera's, this sells for £419 (E468) for the Head and there are 2 different cabinets available the GQ and the VQ.
Both 4x12's, the GQ is loaded with Celestion rocket 50's and costs £269 (E300) and the VQ which is loaded with Celestion vintage 30's and costs £469 (E524)!!!
Guess which Cab I had it plugged into????

Seriously, for £900 I could be VERY, VERY tempted by this stack!!!!

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 10 2010, 03:14 PM

Awesome review Jonesy! I agree on pretty much everything you said about the 333 head, decent cleans and light crunch, after that it starts to get messy. Since I used 1960 Marshall cab when testing and came to very similar results, I conclude poor result for 333 head (and I guess 333XL as well, since the head is basically the same, except it has some additional features).

I would still like to test 1960 Bugera head, it would be interesting to find out how it behaves. While we are on that topic, there is one person who calles himself Tone King on YT, and made some good (although unbiased IMO) shootouts between 1960 Bugera and a vintage 1959 JCM800. The difference is clear even on these videos, but again, the price is very low on the Bugera, so it is a justified difference to some extent:





EDIT: I just have to comment on how this guy compared the built, it's pretty unbiased to me. He accents the great built with Bugera, but speaks no such thing on the JCM. He even says that wiring on the Bugera "nice job", "color coded, and "wrapped correctly", which to me is a bit strange thing to say. Of course it needs to be color coded and wrapped correctly. On the other hand, I look at this JCM amp and see the wiring is way better, but he speaks no good things about it? Also, you can clearly see that he says that caps on the Marshall are "on the outside" which sounds to me like it is a bad thing. I don't know how this can be a bad thing at all. Also, the caps on the Bugera are so tiny, and again no words there. he didn't even mention that the tube sockets are printed on the PCB on the Bugera, as opposed to the chassis-mounted sockets on the JCM, which is by many a bad construction decision made to cut costs in production.

EDIT2: one more thing, in the first video, he mentions how he payed the JCM much more than Bugera. That is OK, but JCM is a vintage amp that has been around for decades and it needed maintenance, so included that in the price and compared the sum. I'm not sure if that is a good way to compare them. I would like to see Bugera in some 20-25 years of abuse, how it sounds then.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Jan 10 2010, 03:31 PM

Thanks Ivan!!
I would have loved to have been able to play around for at least another hour or so! That's my thoughts after having about 15/20 minutes with each Amp.
Except the Ashton! The shop had shut and we all had a lot of fun messing around with that one!!!
I would also like to try that 1960 as well!
You can hear the difference between it and the 6260 straight away (even from that video clip)! It has to be the EL34's!
If any of the ones I played were EL34 loaded they would be so much better, especially where they start to sound 'thin'!

Reply to edit 1!
Maybe TK is just pointing out that the Bugera's aren't quite as badly built as their reputation would have you believe?
Secondly, he shouldn't really have to mention any drawbacks on the Marshall's build quality as there shouldn't be any!!!


Reply to edit 2!
Very good point mate!!
Would the Bugera even be working after that time? I think so if it hasn't been thrown around and abused. It would be interesting to see!

Posted by: MickeM Jan 10 2010, 04:32 PM

Great review SJ! And nice find with that Ashton, never heard of it before, what a gold nugget!

About The Tone King, I keep watching his reviews since some time back. Overall interesting and enjoyable but I wonder why he's stubbornly recording through the mike of the camera instead of miking the cabs. Should sound so much true.
Yeah, I also think he commented on the Bugera as a surprise there were wires and tubes inside and not bricks only to add weight.


I do also wonder if 1960 and 1990, like the other Bugera models fail when pushed. They are newer models from 2009 and question is if Bugera improved or have settled for good enough.

Posted by: Sensible Jones Jan 10 2010, 05:24 PM

Thanks Micke! It was a nugget!! Ashton is an Australian company and although I've seen their budget Instruments and SS Amps I hadn't come across their Valve gear before!!


I wonder the same thing too. That 1960 Plexi style seems to be much more adept at doing what it should. (Maybe because of the EL34's!)
Where as both those 62--'s that I tried were trying to be something that they're not, although, as I mentioned I really think swapping the 6L6's for EL34's would make a difference. The question is...
Would it make that much of a difference?

Posted by: Alex Lewis Jan 10 2010, 11:24 PM

In terms of reliability I would say it depends on the amp in front of you because you can always get unlucky,

For example I had a Marshall TSL 100 head that broke down twice within 6 months of having it due to faulty wiring (something to do with the virtual power reduction switch) and then after another six months it let go again at a gig so I had it fixed and sold it, whereas I have had my peavey valveking head for over two years now and no problems whatsoever....

Also I bought a marshall ed-1 compressor that went after two gigs, so I bought a boss compressor which lasted me 4 months (I did take it back on the warranty though and it was fixed without a problem) whilst this was being fixed however I decided to get something in the interim a behringer compressor costing me about £20 and I kid you not over 18 months later I am still using the behringer and I leave the boss at home!.

Also in my opinion the behringer is much much better than either the marshall and the boss and as I dont have to use a noise gate in conjunction with it ( which I had to with both the other pedals).

The other guitarist in my band also had massive noise problems as well with his "constrictor" compressor pedal (about £80) i.e a massive amount of feedback so he went and bought a behringer and now has no problem at all! So sometimes price aint everything.

Theres my two pence worth

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Jan 11 2010, 08:21 PM

I agree a lot with the Marshall, they are to me even worst then Behr these days, putting out lousy amps that cost a fortune. They should really cut down prices. But the reliability and tone image is on their side, so they can do this.