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Posted by: twind Dec 31 2007, 02:00 PM

So i want to start recording my amp using a mic. And im wondering whats the best mic pre amp under $200? (if there is one). Or is there a better way of recording? thx.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Dec 31 2007, 02:17 PM

What are you using for input? Your PC's soundcard? Or do you have an audio interface already?

If it is the soundcard, you will benefit from buying a better audio interface, and these days a lot of them come with reasonable MIC amplifiers thus solving 2 problems at once.

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Dec 31 2007, 03:30 PM

Adrew has a strong point here - you need a reasonably good soundcard to start recording.

I suggest something like EMU 0202 USB. It is very cheap and it has one mic input with preamp.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Dec 31 2007, 03:50 PM

Good suggestion! I have an EMU1212m (discontinued now I think) - I have been extremely pleased with it.

Posted by: twind Jan 1 2008, 03:31 AM

Thanks for the help guys im thinkin of getting a toneport UX2.

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 1 2008, 05:14 AM

Also a good choice - I have line 6 stuff as well and it rocks, I don;t think you will be disappointed.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 4 2008, 02:14 PM

Stay away from toneport stuff or any digital, with 230 euro I'll buy the PreSonus BlueTube DP Stereo Tube Microphone Preamp, just bear in mind that tube pre has a smother slower response instead of the solid state one (if you are a fast metal riffer you culd prefer the latter) anyway the PreSonus has both! :-DDDD

Joe Kataldo

If you are in the US go to zzsounds.com they sell it just $199.95 nearly there man! under 200$$$ :-D

Posted by: twind Jan 5 2008, 02:39 AM

Isnt that the point of recording something on a PC. Also i can get a toneport ux2 for $200 aus (alot cheaper than retail), PreSonus BlueTube or anything like that here is over $400 bucks.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 5 2008, 12:08 PM

well, I understand, right now I'm In Italy, and is expensive than US , but speaking in $$$ I conceived that you were in U.S. any way I think that USB is too slow for audio application if you need a audio interface/mic pre solution I suggest you to search for something fireware

Anyway here is my suggestion...this solution should fit your budget

M-Audio Delta Audiophile 24/06 PCI (you can use protool M-Powered!!!)

A really good sound card to start recording

ART TubeMP Project Series
A Budget tube pre with phantom (stereo)

or cheaper

ART TubeMP (mono)
A Budget tube pre with phantom
the same with less option

Check this stuff and let me know

Joe Kataldo

Posted by: Twibeard Jan 5 2008, 12:43 PM

If its a PreAmp only you need, then Behringer got affordable good Tube Mic Preamps called Ultragain.
You can only fill your tank on your car twice for the money you will spent on one of these.
Cool thing: if you later want to upgrate the Behringer Ultragain to a pro preAmp, then just replace the stock tubes with: EI Elite 12AX7EG Telefunken clones, then you suddenly got a highend PreAmp mate. Have fun!

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 5 2008, 01:15 PM

Very cool advice, I upgraded mine with NOS e83cc Tesla , changing tube you can fully re-voice your pre!

Posted by: Milenkovic Ivan Jan 5 2008, 03:13 PM

I think that toneport is a good choice for starters. It is a good PnP device that needs little configuration and it doesent require sepparate soundcard - because it is a soundcard. For that sort of money, buy it, it has 2 mic preamps, two guitar inputs, two line-level recoridng inputs, built in effects, decent converters (for a price) and over 100dB n\s ratio. It even has two monitor inputs, SPDIF, analog VUmeters and phantom power. And for 200$! Come on

Posted by: Twibeard Jan 5 2008, 03:51 PM

Joe ... I have to try the NOS Tubes ... do you have any kind of review on those tubes? I got 2 Behringer Ultragrade and will upgrade my second with new tubes as well ... makes recording awesome really

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 5 2008, 04:25 PM

E83CC Tesla not jj has the same design of Telefunken and are cheaper I can't say more than that! I have two of them from same batch matched, but they sound different Actually I'm using them in my mark IV

Many people thinks NOS is a waste of money, I think is right and true at the same time, Before transistor were tubes, specially military and medical one were made to last That kind of machine can't fail for a tube!!!
This for as means more quality Definition 3d sound. The only BIG advice I can give to you about NOS is Find A dealer you trust!

Joe Kataldo

Posted by: Twibeard Jan 5 2008, 04:36 PM

Ah okay Joe thanks, then I think that I will keep buying the Elite tubes They reallt make a BIG difference

Posted by: twind Jan 7 2008, 12:41 PM

So been looking at stuff other than a toneport because ideally i want to record my marshall JCM900 instead of using emulation.

There are two ART Tube MP Projects, a standard? and usb. Not sure what the difference is maybe one is a newer model? standard is about $130 and USB is $220. Anyone know if the art Micro Mixer pre amps are any good aswell? their pretty cheap.

How would these sound with a shure sm57? any other suggestions for better mics? pretty sure thats the best one.

Then i guess that just leaves getting a better sound card.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 7 2008, 01:31 PM

http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?type=79&cat=1&id=115

I suggest to you the standard...as I state before usb is to slow for audio application,...and connect it to a good sound card, the M-Audio audiophile 24/96 PCI is cheap but a good start it has aiso driver direct monitoring a latency near to 0 etc. anyway if you want to hear the art and sm57, just check my lessons (they will be relased soon) I'm using the same gear

so about better mic the answer is: there is no better mic but different sound (I know the sm57 is a cheap mic but has is "sound" ) for archive better sound quality a common solution is misc different mic,for example a common modern sound combination is sm57 and sennheiser md421 trying to get the best of both, in the end will be just a matter of tast

I know that sometime I can be very drastic about digital , but I think that work and experiment with sound cabinet, room and mic placement is an art, that many musician ignore, it's so easy plug 'n' play in digital stuff, but alway something missing for me, my advice is start experimenting as soon as you can!

Joe Kataldo

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 7 2008, 02:11 PM

Hey Joe, this is interesting stuff.

I have a reasonable tube mike (Rode K2) which I run into a solid state Mic Amp (Fostex TwinTrak pro) but was wondering if you think it is worth getting a tube preamp as well? I guess you can't have too much tubey goodness Maybe I'll build a preamp myself, could be a good follow on project from my guitar Amp.

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 7 2008, 02:37 PM

finding the right combination of mic and preamp is as much science as religion...anyway is a common practice combine tube mic with mosfet pre and vice versa always trying to get best of both world, usually one tube stage is enough. each stage will add noise.

I had opportunity to test the rode k-2 I think is an awesome mic for female voices, I like the coloration it gives. I've tested it for cabinet ambient, but didn't impressed me, it does a good job for acustic guitar too!

Here is an helpful website for all newbie http://www.bedroom-recording.com/

Joe Kataldo

Posted by: tonymiro Jan 7 2008, 06:16 PM

Just to add to Joe here - different preamps suit different types of music as well, just the same as some mics suit say a female vocalist, others a male and so on. The difficulty for most of us is that we don't have a vast array of mics and pre's to mix and match so often end up trying to get one, or a very few, that will be a 'jack of all trades'.

Higher end pres generally will give a much better result then intro ones and you'll find you have more head room and probably more gain. Also above a given price limit you can start to hear that certain makes have a particular sound/character, a Neve is a Neve is a Neve, A Manley is a Manley is a Manley, an SSL is an SSL, etc - just the same with high end guitar amps. Perhaps what we tend to do is gravitate towards what we are used to? I grew up with Neve before getting used to the ultra clean SSL sound in the 80s/90s. I like both and think they have their own strengths and weaknesses. I tend to see Neve as good for many things and SSL excellent for dance/electronica and some orchestral. So to some extent what may work is to think what type of music you record and like to listen to and what sort of equipment the latter may have been recorded on and aim towards what matches them.

Just going back to a tube mic - as Joe says it has a nice coloration and tube 'warmth' that suits some vocal types for some types of music. You might not want that coloration to record say an orchestra or even a male vocal. It can work really well with some preamps that gain from the warmth whilst others might come across as strident or unnatural and with too much presence. I don't know about the Fostek (did it become the Focusrite Twintrack Andrew?) but I'd guess that the K2 is probably a notch or two above it price band wise. So the K2 would certainly work well with a more high end pre. A tube pre - maybe - but it is possible to add too much warmth and colouration, and as Joe says more noise, or indeed have a tube pre that doesn't match the tube mic.

What I'd suggest you try Andrew is to take the K2 in to a good music store and try it out with some different pre's and then base your design on whichever of those works best.

Last bit from me - at some stage you will need to digitise for your DAW. To my mind it would be a bit of a waste to have a great mic, great pre and poor AD conversion. So as Joe says you either need an audio card like the Audiophile that has good AD/DA or you will need to do it prior to it. Some preamps have AD cards, some don't. The more expensive pres that do tend to have good AD, the less expensive, well... IMHO don't waste money on poor AD/DA. A bargain end pre with an AD/DA card might look like great value for money but essentially garbage in results in garbage out.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 7 2008, 06:43 PM

Thats why I said "Stay away from toneport stuff or any digital" with this kind of stuff all included all ready cheap digital and fast you have everything but sound quality!

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 7 2008, 06:47 PM

Thanks TOny for your usual thorough response

Did I say Fostex? I meant Focusrite I know Mic amps are usually a weak spot in the recording chain, so welcome the input that I might benefit from a higher end Pre tan the twintrak.

A/D wise I believe I am well served by my EMU1212m (the m somehow stands for "really quite good converters" as opposed to the non-m models of the same card) so I am hoping I am ok in this area. The EMU "m" converters always get great reviews, but let me know if you think I am off base here - as things do move on

I think my next purchase will be a http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHADA8000 to expand my studio to 10 ins and outs - I need more options for reamping and monitoring etc. Whilts I probably wouldn't use the Behringer seriously for micing (it is pretty cheap after all and its MIC amps probably aren;t the greatest) I am hoping that this will be a cost effective way of increasing my line ins and outs without spending a fortune - I can hook this up to the 1212m via ADAT lightpipe to get a single 10/10 IO capability.

I may well add a high quality single input path preamp to go with the K2 for important things like lead vocals and guitar micing.

I'd appreciate any advice on the above strategy

Posted by: tonymiro Jan 7 2008, 08:38 PM

Just on the AD/DA Andrew - not sure if I can make this understandable, so apologies in advance. AD/DA depends on the signal to noise ratio, bit resolution and accuracy (quantisation error, linearity and jitter). For a DAW a resolution of 24 bit is standard for most AD/DA. Food for thought for anyone recording above or below 24 bit .

As far as I know for a linear AD conversion system you need 5-6 dB per bit - so an SNR of 120-140 dBA. If you look at the stats for higher end AD/DA convertors (RME, Apogee, ADC etc) they generally offer SNR over 110dBA, usually 110-120. (The further you go below 140 the lower your SNR, obviously, but also I'd assume the more you move from linearity.)

Quantisation error occurs as any ADC has a finite resolution and at a certain point becomes dependent of the input signal which results in distortion. This distortion may of course be 'removed' via dithering but dithering will reduce the SNR further.

All ADCs have a degree of nonlinearity - the extent to which output differs from input. Higher end ADC are calibrated to account for their non-linearity (plus higher grade components and assembly reduce non-linearity).

For jitter - again largely unavoidable - you need to minimise jitter via an ultra low jitter clock. Without an ultra low jitter clock it isn't possible to achieve accurate 24 bit recording. Lower end ADCs may not have a suitable clock.

So for ADC it's not really enough to talk about the SNR - there are other issues to take into account and so the figures are usually about resolution (normally 24bit); SNR; THD; and, internal clock jitter.

One of the odd bits, to me anyway, is that ADCs do sound different. An RME will sound different to a Rosetta and an ADC etc. Regardless of this the higher end ADCs tend however to resolve much more detail, sound more open and be more accurate then the poorer quality ADCs - which is what I think Joe means above. It's a bit like hi fi - a good high end cd player sounds more detailed etc at least in part because the DAC is of high quality. As ever though the catch 22 is you pay your money and make a choice. Is 2000ish USD for a mid range Apogee Rosetta ADC worth the cash...

How well the EMU stacks up here I don't know (never seen the specs for it) - I do remember it getting good reviews as a sound card though. If to date your happy with it then I'd say keep it for now. You can always chuck money at it at a later date .

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: Joe Kataldo Jan 7 2008, 09:37 PM

Exactly if you have some money to invest, the first place is AD/DA converter, all-equipped solution usually has very cheap converter, and as stated before they have everything but quality (sound quality dynamics, clearness etc. etc.)

Joe kataldo

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Jan 7 2008, 10:12 PM

Thanks guys, I have been happy with the quality, and at the time it was billed as having the same AD converter as one of the protools rigs which can't be bad. Of course you don;t know if anything is better until you hear it, but I think I will stick with it for now at least.