Lydian Mode?
Andrew Cockburn
Feb 11 2007, 02:09 AM
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Amongst all my other practice, I am trying to figure out modes so that I can incorporate them in my playing - they have been, so far, incomprehensible to me. Today, I was working on a solo and I decided to analyze it in modal terms to see what I came up with - could someone check me on this to see if I have finally opened a crack of understanding ? blink.gif

So, I was playing a chord sequence of Am7-Gmaj7-Am7-Gmaj7, and using a G major scale over both chords. So, G major scale on a Gmaj7 chord is Ionian - no surprises there. However, the same scale over an Am7 is Lydian I think, my reasoning is as follows:

A is the relative minor of C, so I am in effect playing a G scale over a chord of C (kind of). The C-G interval is a 4th, making the mode Lydian ... does that make any sense at all, or have I completely misunderstood modes again??? If the above is correct, is it a rule that you always use majors to figure the interval (e.g. C instead of Am)? If I didn't do that I'd end up with a 6th interval, making it Aeolian which I'm pretty sure it isn't.

And a related question - is the Aeolian mode the same as a relative minor for a particular chord?

Thanks for any enlightenment!

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Tank
Feb 11 2007, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2007, 03:09 AM) *
......
So, I was playing a chord sequence of Am7-Gmaj7-Am7-Gmaj7, and using a G major scale over both chords. So, G major scale on a Gmaj7 chord is Ionian - no surprises there. However, the same scale over an Am7 is Lydian I think, my reasoning is as follows:

A is the relative minor of C, so I am in effect playing a G scale over a chord of C (kind of). The C-G interval is a 4th, making the mode Lydian ... does that make any sense at all, or have I completely misunderstood modes again??? If the above is correct, is it a rule that you always use majors to figure the interval (e.g. C instead of Am)? If I didn't do that I'd end up with a 6th interval, making it Aeolian which I'm pretty sure it isn't.

And a related question - is the Aeolian mode the same as a relative minor for a particular chord?

Thanks for any enlightenment!


You are correct in assuming that the G relates as Ionian to it's root chord Gmaj(7). However, when you move to Am7, it's actually Dorian.

The G scale would work over Cmaj7 as Lydian, as you've worked out, but Am7 (G scale) has a flavour of its own, as Am7 is the 2nd degree of the harmonised G scale.

In G Major, playing the G Major scale (G A B C D E F#), you'll get these associations over the relevant chords:

Gmaj7 - Ionian
Am7 - Dorian
Bm7 - Phrygian
Cmaj7 - Lydian
D7 (Dominant 7th) - Mixolydian
Em7 - Aeolian (Natural Minor)
F# Diminished - Locrian

As you can see, you are correct about Aeolian being the natural minor.

Hope I haven't confused the situation!

/T

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brainlesswonder
Feb 11 2007, 04:24 PM
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can I get the English version of that? Isn't dorian the car from back to the future? tongue.gif

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Andrew Cockburn
Feb 11 2007, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (brainlesswonder @ Feb 11 2007, 10:24 AM) *
can I get the English version of that? Isn't dorian the car from back to the future? tongue.gif


Nah, I thought it was a Ford Mixolydian wink.gif

Thanks for taking the time to respond Tank, that was actually extremely helpful as you pointed out what I was doing wrong - I was going from the chord to the scale instead of the other way around, which was why none of this made any sense !

So if I turn it around and always start with a chord of G(something), the scales would become:

Chord - Scale - Mode

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - F - Dorian
Gm7 - D# - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - D - Lydian
G7 - C - Mixolydian
Gm7 - A# - Aeolian
Gdim - G# - Locrian

Does that look right?

And another question is, going back to the original example, and playing in the scale of G at all times. If the chord sequence went G-Em-Am-D (that old 50s - 60s classic) would I be playing Ionian-Aeolian-Dorian-Mixolydian? Or to put it another way, when thinking in modes, is it usual to find that a given progression works through several modes in this way? Or is it more usual that you would change the scale to follow the chords?

Thanks!

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This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Feb 11 2007, 04:37 PM


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Tank
Feb 11 2007, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2007, 05:29 PM) *
Nah, I thought it was a Ford Mixolydian wink.gif

.....
So if I turn it around and always start with a chord of G(something), the scales would become:

Chord - Scale - Mode

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - F - Dorian
Gm7 - D# - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - D - Lydian
G7 - C - Mixolydian
Gm7 - A# - Aeolian
Gdim - G# - Locrian

Does that look right?

And another question is, going back to the original example, and playing in the scale of G at all times. If the chord sequence went G-Em-Am-D (that old 50s - 60s classic) would I be playing Ionian-Aeolian-Dorian-Mixolydian? Or to put it another way, when thinking in modes, is it usual to find that a given progression works through several modes in this way? Or is it more usual that you would change the scale to follow the chords?

Thanks!


You've got it, your chords - scales is correct. (Took me a few minutes to think it through!!!).

As to your second question, you are right, if you were using the G-Em-Am-D and played G major all the way through, you'd be passing through all those modes as the chords changed. It can be a way of soloing, but it can become limited eventually. Personally I've started to change the scale as the chords change, which gives much more variety, (and a load more to think about/go wrong!!)

/T

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Pavel
Feb 11 2007, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (brainlesswonder @ Feb 11 2007, 04:24 PM) *
can I get the English version of that? Isn't dorian the car from back to the future? tongue.gif


No - the car is DeLorean! What a nice car! wink.gif

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Andrew Cockburn
Feb 11 2007, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Tank @ Feb 11 2007, 12:02 PM) *
You've got it, your chords - scales is correct. (Took me a few minutes to think it through!!!).

As to your second question, you are right, if you were using the G-Em-Am-D and played G major all the way through, you'd be passing through all those modes as the chords changed. It can be a way of soloing, but it can become limited eventually. Personally I've started to change the scale as the chords change, which gives much more variety, (and a load more to think about/go wrong!!)

/T


Fantastic - I'm finally understanding!

Now I need to play in all the modes for several years so I can feel them instead of just write them down in a post ;-)

Actually, thinking about it a little more as I write this, I am now realizing that up until now I have, without knowing it, been using the first approach of staying in scale and using a different mode when I could easily get away with it (Ionian, Aeolian, Mixolydian and a little Dorian), and switching scales instead of using some of the more esoteric modes. Wow, not only do I already know four modes, I can now describe what I have been doing all along in far more baffling terms tongue.gif

Thanks for the advice Tank - this thread has been really helpful to me. I've been baffled about modes for years, and I think it has finally clicked.

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Doofs
Feb 15 2007, 01:59 AM
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This stuff is waaaaaay over my head, but just what I'm looking to learn....

Any suggestions on where to start guys?

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Andrew Cockburn
Feb 15 2007, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (Doofs @ Feb 14 2007, 07:59 PM) *
This stuff is waaaaaay over my head, but just what I'm looking to learn....

Any suggestions on where to start guys?


There was another thread about starting/reopening the theory board - a few of us were interested in asking questions and maybe posting articles/lessons, so one answer could be "watch this space"!

I think it would be good to build up some theory material for the site over time, and possibly some simple videos showing scales etc. When I get myself a little more organized I might have a go at putting some basic theory posts together, so let me know what would be helpful to you - I'm not an expert, but we can learn together, and there are plenty of people on this site who know a hell of a lot and can help with specific questions.

Apart from that, there are a number of explanations of modes in particular around the net - just google for "modes" and you should get a bunch. If modes are a little too much to pick up initially (I found them really hard for a long time), you can start with the theory of basic scales, and the CAGED system, which you need to understand anyway for modes to make sense.

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Doofs
Feb 15 2007, 10:00 AM
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Cool, thanks mate...

Its hard to know what to search for!! lol

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Zee Deveel
Feb 15 2007, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2007, 03:29 PM) *
Chord - Scale - Mode

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - F - Dorian
Gm7 - D# - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - D - Lydian
G7 - C - Mixolydian
Gm7 - A# - Aeolian
Gdim - G# - Locrian
Thanks!

Shouldn't this be:

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - A - Dorian
Gm7 - B - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - C - Lydian
G7 - D - Mixolydian
Gm7 - E - Aeolian
Gdim - F# - Locrian

?

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Andrew Cockburn
Feb 15 2007, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Zee Deveel @ Feb 15 2007, 06:11 AM) *
Shouldn't this be:

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - A - Dorian
Gm7 - B - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - C - Lydian
G7 - D - Mixolydian
Gm7 - E - Aeolian
Gdim - F# - Locrian

?


No, I don't think so - the way you have it is going from scale to chord, I was going the other way .(i.e. backwards)

So, taking Mixolydian as an example, in tanks post he said G - Cmaj7 (scale of G, chord of Cmaj7) would be Mixolydian, I wanted to do it backwards and keep G7 as the chord. The question then becomes, what base scale has a G 4 intervals up from it? The answer is D.

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Zee Deveel
Feb 15 2007, 04:07 PM
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Ahh right sorry was being stupid. I was thinking of this:

Gmaj - G - Ionian
Gmaj - A - Dorian
Gmaj - B - Phrygian
Gmaj - C - Lydian
Gmaj - D - Mixolydian
Gmaj - E - Aeolian
Gmaj - F# - Locrian

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