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Eighth Note Triplets
Phil66
Oct 6 2020, 08:50 PM
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Hello folks,

As part of my injury rehab I'm learning THIS lesson as it's not too demanding on my left arm/shoulder, as a side lesson Gab suggested THIS lesson.

One thing that is confusing me, and please don't say "Just play your guitar" laugh.gif I have a need to understand. My question is this, Why are eighth note triplets called "eighth notes" when there are twelve of them???? Shouldn't they be called twelfth note triplets? I thought eighth notes lasted for an eighth of a bar??? blink.gif wacko.gif

I think this is the kind of thing that makes music theory difficult for me to take in.

I've asked Gab in my thread but I've posted it here to help others too.

Cheers

Phil

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 6 2020, 08:50 PM


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Storm Linnebjerg
Oct 6 2020, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 6 2020, 09:50 PM) *
Hello folks,

As part of my injury rehab I'm learning THIS lesson as it's not too demanding on my left arm/shoulder, as a side lesson Gab suggested THIS lesson.

One thing that is confusing me, and please don't say "Just play your guitar" laugh.gif I have a need to understand. My question is this, Why are eighth note triplets called "eighth notes" when there are twelve of them???? Shouldn't they be called twelfth note triplets? I thought eighth notes lasted for an eighth of a bar??? blink.gif wacko.gif

I've asked Gab in my thread but I've posted it here to help others too.

Cheers

Phil


They are not really called "eighth notes" though, they're called "eighth note triplets". cool.gif
And if they were 12-note triplets you would have 18 twelve-notes! But twelve-notes are not a thing anyway. How would you flag a 12th-note in notation? Mathematically of course it could probably be considered a thing.

It's in the name "triplet", really, for me at least. Or rather that it means playing 3 notes in the time of two. Whether that is three 16th-notes in the time of two 16-the notes (16th-note triplets) or 8th note triplets. Or quarter-note triplets for that matter. Any note value can be a triplet, though some are not used that much.

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Oct 6 2020, 09:01 PM


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Potsau
Oct 6 2020, 11:44 PM
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Use a metronome. every click you must clap 3 times. The 4th clap should end on the 2nd click. and so on. All in all, try to clap 3 times within one click. So you got 12 8ths in a 4/4.


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Phil66
Oct 7 2020, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (Potsau @ Oct 6 2020, 11:44 PM) *
Use a metronome. every click you must clap 3 times. The 4th clap should end on the 2nd click. and so on. All in all, try to clap 3 times within one click. So you got 12 8ths in a 4/4.


Thanks, yes I get that, it's 123 223 323 423, it's having 12 eighth notes that gets me, it's like saying I have twelve eighths of a pint of beer in this point glass. huh.gif

Cheers

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Storm Linnebjerg
Oct 7 2020, 06:12 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 7 2020, 07:06 AM) *
Thanks, yes I get that, it's 123 223 323 423, it's having 12 eighth notes that gets me, it's like saying I have twelve eighths of a pint of beer in this point glass. huh.gif

Cheers


Did you see my attempt at explaining it? smile.gif

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Phil66
Oct 7 2020, 06:15 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 6 2020, 08:53 PM) *
It's in the name "triplet", really, for me at least. Or rather that it means playing 3 notes in the time of two. Whether that is three 16th-notes in the time of two 16-the notes (16th-note triplets) or 8th note triplets. Or quarter-note triplets for that matter. Any note value can be a triplet, though some are not used that much.


Thanks Ben,

I don't really get the "playing two notes in the time of two", in this instance three notes are played per quarter note . In my head it would make more sense to call them quarter note triplets as each triplet is played on a quarter note. At least then there is some relationship going on. With the term "eighth note triplet", I can't see anything to do with eight anywhere.

Cheers buddy

Phil


QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 7 2020, 06:12 AM) *
Did you see my attempt at explaining it? smile.gif


I was typing my reply as you were typing that wink.gif I didn't do the rules in the chronological order, don't know why.

See above. smile.gif

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This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 7 2020, 07:18 AM


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Storm Linnebjerg
Oct 7 2020, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 7 2020, 07:12 AM) *
Thanks Ben,

I don't really get the "playing two notes in the time of two", in this instance three notes are played per quarter note . In my head it would make more sense to call them quarter note triplets as each triplet is played on a quarter note. At least then there is some relationship going on. With the term "eighth note triplet", I can't see anything to do with eight anywhere.

Cheers buddy

Phil


It's three notes in the time of two though. Not two in two. Two in two would not be a triplet. A quarter note triplet would be three quarter notes in the time of two quarter notes though, so using that term gets some other note values mixed.



Essentially a triplet is 3 notes of a specific note value played over the same duration of 2 notes of the same specific note value.

EDIT: You could also look at it this way: A triplet is 2/3 of that given note value notated by the flag of the rhythm value. I think the answer to your original question of why it can't be twelve-notes is because of the way we notate rhythm with the flags. 8th notes having one line, 16th notes two and so on. Our rhythm notation is in it's simplest form powers of two - 1 (whole), 2 (half), 4 (quarters), 8 (eighth), 16, 32 and so on. To notate a note lasting a "twelvth note" you'd have to notate it in a way that would make sense, and I personally think a triplet rhythm notation makes sense for that.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 7 2020, 07:15 AM) *
I was going my reply as you were typing that wink.gif I didn't do the rules in the chronological order, don't know why.

See above. smile.gif


No worries, thought you'd missed it smile.gif

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Oct 7 2020, 06:39 AM


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Storm Linnebjerg
Oct 7 2020, 07:01 AM
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Here's another decent video:



QUOTE (Phil66 @ Oct 7 2020, 07:06 AM) *
Thanks, yes I get that, it's 123 223 323 423, it's having 12 eighth notes that gets me, it's like saying I have twelve eighths of a pint of beer in this point glass. huh.gif

Cheers


With a triplet it would be more like saying you have twelve "2/3rds of eights" of a pint, adding up to a full pint.

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Phil66
Oct 7 2020, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 7 2020, 06:27 AM) *
It's three notes in the time of two though. Not two in two. Two in two would not be a triplet. A quarter note triplet would be three quarter notes in the time of two quarter notes though, so using that term gets some other note values mixed.



Essentially a triplet is 3 notes of a specific note value played over the same duration of 2 notes of the same specific note value.

EDIT: You could also look at it this way: A triplet is 2/3 of that given note value notated by the flag of the rhythm value. I think the answer to your original question of why it can't be twelve-notes is because of the way we notate rhythm with the flags. 8th notes having one line, 16th notes two and so on. Our rhythm notation is in it's simplest form powers of two - 1 (whole), 2 (half), 4 (quarters), 8 (eighth), 16, 32 and so on. To notate a note lasting a "twelvth note" you'd have to notate it in a way that would make sense, and I personally think a triplet rhythm notation makes sense for that.



No worries, thought you'd missed it smile.gif


Thanks Ben,

It kinda makes sense now sort of in a way wink.gif

I haven't had chance to watch the video, I'll try this evening. I understand why people say "Just play it", when it comes to understanding what you're doing, and often doing intuitively, it can get in the way. I've played things in the past and played them okay, then I've come across something, like maybe eighth note triplets, and when you think about it and try to do it, you struggle. Weird.

Cheers buddy, thank you for your time.

Phil

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Gabriel Leopardi
Oct 7 2020, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 7 2020, 02:27 AM) *



Excellent explanation Cael! This graphic explains it very clearly.


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Phil66
Dec 20 2020, 03:45 PM
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Would quarter note triplets played at 180bpm sound like eighth note triplets played at 90bpm?

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 20 2020, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 20 2020, 04:45 PM) *
Would quarter note triplets played at 180bpm sound like eighth note triplets played at 90bpm?


Yes smile.gif

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Phil66
Dec 20 2020, 05:31 PM
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I thought so but every time I think something about music theory I get thrown a curve ball biggrin.gif

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Todd Simpson
Dec 21 2020, 03:00 AM
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Great job on the explanation BEN!!! I've never thought of it this way but it's perfect. Well done.


QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Dec 20 2020, 11:58 AM) *
Yes smile.gif

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 22 2020, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 21 2020, 04:00 AM) *
Great job on the explanation BEN!!! I've never thought of it this way but it's perfect. Well done.


The picture wasn't mine, but it's the way I "see" triplets. I was going to make a similar picture in Guitar Pro, but someone had already done so on Google and it was easier to just use that smile.gif

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Phil66
Dec 22 2020, 08:24 AM
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Sooooo, if you play triplets on the 1, 2, 3 and 4 it's the same as your diagram? except your diagram has the & note inbetween making it eighth note triplets but they are just the same as quarter note triplets?

Would you play 16th note triplets just on the 1, 2, 3, and 4? So each triplet would be played over four 16th notes?

I'm just trying to get this in my head, music often seems unnecessarily complex.

Cheers

Phil

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Storm Linnebjerg
Dec 22 2020, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Dec 22 2020, 09:24 AM) *
Sooooo, if you play triplets on the 1, 2, 3 and 4 it's the same as your diagram? except your diagram has the & note inbetween making it eighth note triplets but they are just the same as quarter note triplets?

Would you play 16th note triplets just on the 1, 2, 3, and 4? So each triplet would be played over four 16th notes?

I'm just trying to get this in my head, music often seems unnecessarily complex.

Cheers

Phil


The diagram from above shows 8th note triplets. They are not the same as quarter note triplets.

"Triplets" is a bit of a vague term, I'd say. As you really need the notation rhythm value too, i.e. "eight note triplets" (there would be 12 of those in a bar of 4/4). Quarter note triplets you would have 6 in a bar of 4/4. Half note triplets you would have 3. And to go in the other direction you would have twenty-four 16th note triplets, so yes, they would land one beat 1, 2, 3 and 4 - with 6 notes in each beat.

A quarter note triplet would look like this (the top section):

Attached Image

I've notated the regular quarter notes so you can see them, as well as the pulse in the bar.

I think what's confusing you is that a triplet is NOT three notes in the time of the note-value. I.e. a quarter note triplet is not three notes in the space of 1 quarter note, but rather 3 notes in the time of 2 quarter notes. Same with the eighth note triplets smile.gif

I would think of "eighth note triplets" as quicker eighth notes, if that makes sense.

Maybe I'm causing more confusion here, but:

1 quarter note = 2 eighth notes = 3 eighth note triplets

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Dec 22 2020, 08:50 AM


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Phil66
Dec 22 2020, 11:28 AM
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Thanks for your patience and explanation Ben, I appreciate it but, I think for now I need to shut up and play my guitar wink.gif

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Phil66
Oct 11 2021, 08:37 PM
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I think I might have hit on something, maybe, just maybe, someone will probably come along and say "Oi, Phil, NOOOOOOOOOO" (You'll get it if you watch the video wink.gif

Anyway, I think a lot of my confusion is bourne out of the terminology. A quarter note lasts a quarter as long as a whole note, yes? But only in 4/4 time, in 3/4 time. doesn't it last a third as long as a whole note?

If I'm right, then this is the tip of the iceberg of my misunderstanding of the whole note length thing. I think I prefer the word "crochet".

I might be blowing outta my behind though.

https://youtu.be/Ks7AwE3Xpfk

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Storm Linnebjerg
Oct 11 2021, 09:58 PM
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A quarter note is the same length no matter the time signature. Doesn't matter if it's in a quarter note in 7/8, 21/32, 4/4 or 3/4 time signature smile.gif

A whole note in 3/4 will actually last longer than the bar, and thus not be "possible" to notate in 3/4. A whole note is 4 quarter notes, adding up to one bar of 3/4 plus a quarter note - making it last 4/4. So a quarter note in 3/4 will still be that 1/4. How many quarters does it take to fill 3/4? It takes 3, but they're still the same size quarters as the 4 quarters in 4/4.

A whole note is...a whole note. 1/1 or 4/4, 8/8 etc. A whole note in 3/4 will not be 3/4, as that's not "whole", but the length of three quarter notes. 7/8 is the length of 7 eighth notes...or 3½ quarter notes.

The note value length themselves do not change depending on the time signature. A quarter note in 4/4 will last just as long as in 3/4, 7/8 or 21/16.

The only thing that makes an individual note value change the length it is being played is the BPM a song is played at. I.e. A quarter note at 120 bpm is faster than one in 90 BPM. It doesn't get faster or slower by being in 3/4 or 4/4.

Have you ever thought of it as math?

Whole note = 1/1
Half note = 1/2
Quarter = 1/4
Eighth = 1/8
Sixteenth = 1/16

How many quarter notes does it take to fill 3/4? It takes three.
How many quarter notes does it take to fill 4/4? It takes four. Which is equal to 1/1 or the length of a whole note.

The length of the quarter doesn't change.

How many whole notes are there in a bar of 3/4 though? Since a whole note is 1/1, the answer will be that they "overflow" the bar, hence leading to going into the next bar of 3/4, but not filling that bar up. Essentially a whole note is 4/4, but since our bar is filled at 3/4 the last part of the whole note's length woulc have to carry on into the next bar.

EDIT: Adding GP files.
Attached File  4_four_and_3_4.gp5 ( 3.06K ) Number of downloads: 270

Attached File  4_four_and_3_4.gp ( 9.64K ) Number of downloads: 283


And with different instruments and pan to easier hear it. Notice the text above the staff.
Attached File  4_four_and_3_4__different_instruments_and_pan_.gp ( 9.85K ) Number of downloads: 281


To sum up: A quarter note is 1/4, a whole note is 1/1. A 4/4 is four quarter notes, and 3/4 is three quarter notes, but the length (time it plays) of a quarter note is not different in 4/4 or 3/4 or any other time signature. A quarter note will never last a third of a whole note.

Screenshot for those who do not have Guitar Pro:

Attached Image

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This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Oct 11 2021, 10:33 PM


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