Rap Isn't Music And Kurt Cobain Can't Play Guitar., Please convince me! Options

[Spiderusalem]

I'm not really a fan of rap and hip-hop, but I do believe it has its merits. Do I hold a tremendous amount of respect for the musicianship of most rap or hip-hop artists? Nope......but sometimes it's fun to go to a hip-hop club, have a couple of drinks, listen to the beat, and watch the honeys shake their stuff

At the end of the day, isn't that really what its all about?

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[shredmandan]

Ive heard quite alot of rap, old, new, and underground, and although i dont like it, To say rap isnt music is pure ignorance.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its not music, thats my stance on this.

Well said
Made a point to me atleast I completly hate rap and it makes me sick what i see on MTV.I dont want my children to ever see this stuff like life is about gold chains and teeth,and woman looking sexy while shaking there butts,but i made an error saying that it's not music .Regardless how horrible i see it and how talentless its still considered music cause of sound.I guess i need to fraise it as i dont like it and have no respect for it what so ever.Thanks for letting me see it a different way and changing my mind atleast on what it's labeled

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[Asphyxia Feeling]

wow. this thread title makes some pretty bold and opinionated statments. i think people need to understand that there is something worth apperciating in ALL forms of music. there's some good "stupid emo trash" music. there is good hip-hop. and kurt cobain never said he could play guitar. on the contrary, he said "i can barely play the thing myself" in an interview. he just expressed himself through his music. and he did it very well. he's going to go down in history far more then overrated "shredders" like Michaelangelo Batio.

i fully understand that some music can just bother you, but to say such narrow-minded things like "rap isn't music" is just showing that you are shallow and ignorant.

(note i'm really not trying to insult / flame anyone, i'd never do that intentionally. it's more a reply to the topic title)

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This post has been edited by Asphyxia Feeling: Nov 6 2007, 09:02 AM

[VinceG]

Rap may be a form of music, but I find it perfectly acceptable for people to have no respect for it whatsoever as a music form. The common basis for creating a rap piece is sitting at a computer and forming a synthetic beat.

Ask yourself. How much respect would you have for Malmsteen if he just sat at a computer and organized synthetic guitar noises to sound like his actual playing?

Ahh but that is different. Malmsteen is cheating from your example, hip hop artist are not. They dont sit in the stage pretend to know how to play music. Like I said, you form your basis as rap music sitting in front of a computer creating synthetic sounds. Most hip hop artist that I listen to dont.

As an example, T-Square. Great Japanese fusion band. On there 2003 album T Comes back. They fused hip hop "synthetic" beats and mixes it with jazz.

Steve Vai used Pro Tools and synthetic drums to some of his songs.

A lot of metal bands uses drum machines.

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[Andrew Cockburn]

(note i'm really not trying to insult / flame anyone, i'd never do that intentionally. it's more a reply to the topic title)

Well Kris started the topic, so I am sure he will take your comments on board

But maybe, just maybe, he did it to provoke discussion?

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[Saoirse O'Shea]

I think the intention of the title is to provoke and encourage discussion but without it descending in to a flame war - which as Kris and Andrew pointed out was where the originating thread was headed.

People can, and sometimes do, hold polarised opinions on an issue but that doesn't preclude discussion. And as Shredmandan's earlier post demonstrates civil discussion can have the great benefit of encouraging us to reflect on our position and, if not actually change it, at least think about the alternative/s.

As some UK TV ad used to opine 'talk is good' . Anyway as Aspyhyxia says talk is good provided we don't go up in flames .

Cheers,
Tony

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[Arrival]

Ahh but that is different. Malmsteen is cheating from your example, hip hop artist are not. They dont sit in the stage pretend to know how to play music. Like I said, you form your basis as rap music sitting in front of a computer creating synthetic sounds. Most hip hop artist that I listen to dont.

As an example, T-Square. Great Japanese fusion band. On there 2003 album T Comes back. They fused hip hop "synthetic" beats and mixes it with jazz.

Steve Vai used Pro Tools and synthetic drums to some of his songs.

A lot of metal bands uses drum machines.

I totally get what you're saying. But in all honesty I'm not really talking about using a computer to fill in blanks or blend styles. I'm talking about the completely or nearly completely synthesized backing tracks under a person rapping, which isn't all that difficult.

To be fair, I respect the fusion of technology in music, as with Pink Floyd. But technology should not control and manufacture the music.

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[Understudy]

I think the hardest thing to do in life is to try and find comfort in things that we don't really understand. Rap is music, and there is a talent behind it. Do I appreciate the art form know as rap/hip hop ? No I do not. I do not understand most of it because I am not from that environment. Rap is an art form that shows no values to society and little or no respect to humanity. Where I come from we were taught respect for women and to do the right things in life, and that living was not about who had the most toys and all the money. For all the Cobain haters, I agree he was not a great player but he was a great writer. And for the member that claims Cobain started a huge movement. I don't understand that statement, he didn't start anything. All Cobain did was play in a music scene called grunge. Big deal, Neil Young had been doing it for 40 years before Cobain came along. The real pioneer of grunge in Neil Young, not Cobain. I hope I didn't flame anyone, that was not the intent. Just giving my 2 copper.

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[JVM]

Rap is very much a form of music. It often incorporates pianos, guitars, real drummers, bassists, much the way a soul band would do it. Even when it is all made on a computer, making something on a computer is no different than making something on a guitar, except the computer is a much more versatile and accurate instrument (it's tuning is near perfect, if you want it to be). Some people, myself included, prefer the guitar, but the computer is still every bit an instrument as one.

Is music solely a physical skill, that you learn with your hands or mouth or feet through repetitive motor skills exercises? Or is music an idea that is trying to be expressed, a language that is still understandable whether your accent is a computer or a guitar, or two rocks being beat together, or the human vocal chords at work?

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This post has been edited by JVM: Nov 6 2007, 09:17 AM

[Smikey2006]

heh i like good rap.. such as.. like someone listen to the beastie boys or G love and the special sauce. The music is different and they talk but you can definatly find music there. also the words are fun but they have meaning. Rap these days is all the same. Gangsta's and grills and 42inch rims on my cadilllac and gattin ppl and what ever. If they had something to say about life and religion and stuff like that it would be fine. Also going back to the creative aspect i see so many rappers ripping off rock songs even down to the lyrics. its all about the genre now.. i think its lost its musical aspect. ALSO about Opera I saw a really good 1 a few days ago It was Rigoletto im not sure of the writer. Of course 1 thing about Opera is the fact that opera is not just music it is a "musical" Unless you know the story ( hard to when its sung in latin) or see it performed just listening to it gets rather boring.

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[Ryan]

heh i like good rap.. such as.. like someone listen to the beastie boys or G love and the special sauce. The music is different and they talk but you can definatly find music there. also the words are fun but they have meaning. Rap these days is all the same. Gangsta's and grills and 42inch rims on my cadilllac and gattin ppl and what ever. If they had something to say about life and religion and stuff like that it would be fine. Also going back to the creative aspect i see so many rappers ripping off rock songs even down to the lyrics. its all about the genre now.. i think its lost its musical aspect. ALSO about Opera I saw a really good 1 a few days ago It was Rigoletto im not sure of the writer. Of course 1 thing about Opera is the fact that opera is not just music it is a "musical" Unless you know the story ( hard to when its sung in latin) or see it performed just listening to it gets rather boring.

I hate rap, I dont think its really music at all IMO. Its a bunch of guys rhyming about how much money they got, or how many girls, or sleeping with them or w/e.
BUT
Tupac, some of his songs incorporate real guitar, and real life stuff so I like it.
Cobain, well Im not a big fan of him.

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[The Uncreator]

Bare in mind Gmcers its agruments like these that seperate us from UG.

True, the arguments here are well minded, and no one is just attacking someone, i dont think anyone should have developed grudges or anythign throughout this thread.

On UG, Some guy who has been on there for 10 years would start insulting everyone and saying how stupid they are. thats why i left the UG Forums for a more "Open" guitar community, thus comes in GMC

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[FretDancer69]

I hate rap, I dont think its really music at all IMO. Its a bunch of guys rhyming about how much money they got, or how many girls, or sleeping with them or w/e.
BUT
Tupac, some of his songs incorporate real guitar, and real life stuff so I like it.
Cobain, well Im not a big fan of him.

i agree with you here. But if the rap/hip-hop song has a good instrmental arranging to it, and nice vocals, im sure i can appreciate and be able to see the real beauty behind it.


And again, please, Im not a cobain hater

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[Asphyxia Feeling]

several people seem to be commenting that rap has no values / requires little or no talent to make / is just synthesized beats etc.

well. exactly what exposure have you guys had to hip-hop music? the stuff you see on TV? the stuff you hear on the radio? at clubs?

think of it this way. what if we judged rock music based on what we hear on mainstream radio.

rock = panic at the disco! fall out boy, paramore, nickelback, and hoobastank?

if somebody said that to one of us, we'd probably politely tell them they have no idea what they are talking about and need to educate themselves on their rock'n'roll, right?

i think the same can be said of hip-hop. it's true the the overall attitude and "lyrical tone" of rap music is very different from rock. however, there's plenty of legitimate hip-hop artists around. it's just you need to dig deep if you (care enough) to try and find them.

and, plenty of work goes into making a good hip-hop track. sure, it isn't "musical" in a sense of musical theory or playing instruments. it doesn't need to be. rap is basically saying what you want to say over a good / fresh / unique / catchy beat. it utilizes samples from other songs, a multitude of instruments, basically anything that catches the attention of your ears. i have no idea how they really do it, but i'm sure it takes a long time to make sick beats. to say it requires no skill is just ignorant. i can write you a three chord rock song with a penatonic solo in 15 minutes. does rock music require no skill?

as for lyrical content. i think it's subjective. there's plenty of hip-hop that has thought provoking lyrics. there's plenty of rock music that has songs that are about chicks. i think most of all artists write about their lives. if a rap artists deals with gangs or whatever, he's gonna write songs about it. if a rockstar is struggling with a drug addiction or something, he'll write about it! as i said before, you cannot judge a genre based on whats mainstream.

for the record, i'm no hip-hop expert myself. until a year or two ago i hated it just as much as anybody else did. to me it was just stupid wannabe poetry about banging women and shooting people. then a friend of mine started bumping some cool hip-hop in his car and it opened my ears to a whole new world of music.

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[Spiderusalem]

several people seem to be commenting that rap has no values / requires little or no talent to make / is just synthesized beats etc.

well. exactly what exposure have you guys had to hip-hop music? the stuff you see on TV? the stuff you hear on the radio? at clubs?

think of it this way. what if we judged rock music based on what we hear on mainstream radio.

rock = panic at the disco! fall out boy, paramore, nickelback, and hoobastank?

if somebody said that to one of us, we'd probably politely tell them they have no idea what they are talking about and need to educate themselves on their rock'n'roll, right?

i think the same can be said of hip-hop. it's true the the overall attitude and "lyrical tone" of rap music is very different from rock. however, there's plenty of legitimate hip-hop artists around. it's just you need to dig deep if you (care enough) to try and find them.

and, plenty of work goes into making a good hip-hop track. sure, it isn't "musical" in a sense of musical theory or playing instruments. it doesn't need to be. rap is basically saying what you want to say over a good / fresh / unique / catchy beat. it utilizes samples from other songs, a multitude of instruments, basically anything that catches the attention of your ears. i have no idea how they really do it, but i'm sure it takes a long time to make sick beats. to say it requires no skill is just ignorant. i can write you a three chord rock song with a penatonic solo in 15 minutes. does rock music require no skill?

as for lyrical content. i think it's subjective. there's plenty of hip-hop that has thought provoking lyrics. there's plenty of rock music that has songs that are about chicks. i think most of all artists write about their lives. if a rap artists deals with gangs or whatever, he's gonna write songs about it. if a rockstar is struggling with a drug addiction or something, he'll write about it! as i said before, you cannot judge a genre based on whats mainstream.

for the record, i'm no hip-hop expert myself. until a year or two ago i hated it just as much as anybody else did. to me it was just stupid wannabe poetry about banging women and shooting people. then a friend of mine started bumping some cool hip-hop in his car and it opened my ears to a whole new world of music.

thats what i said earlier, but in less words.

I listen to cultural resistance hip hop, thats all about positive change in society. I listen to hip hop with lyrics concerning foreign affairs. I listen to what I consider "good" hip hop thats all underground. I'm sure thats not what most of you are use to.

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[Asphyxia Feeling]

thats what i said earlier, but in less words.

I listen to cultural resistance hip hop, thats all about positive change in society. I listen to hip hop with lyrics concerning foreign affairs. I listen to what I consider "good" hip hop thats all underground. I'm sure thats not what most of you are use to.

haha, sorry spider. i actually never read any of the thread other then what people said after my first post.

i've only just started buying my own hip-hop albums, so i don't know ALOT about the "good" stuff... right now i'm really getting into (old) Nas, Rakim and Eric B, and Immortal Technique.

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[Animosity]

several people seem to be commenting that rap has no values / requires little or no talent to make / is just synthesized beats etc.

well. exactly what exposure have you guys had to hip-hop music? the stuff you see on TV? the stuff you hear on the radio? at clubs?

I don't know what kind of exposure someone who has never listened to it would get.. The mainstream stuff is an advertisement to people who might dig deeper and find the hidden gems. But if you don't like the advertisement, then you aren't going to dig deeper.

think of it this way. what if we judged rock music based on what we hear on mainstream radio.

rock = panic at the disco! fall out boy, paramore, nickelback, and hoobastank?

On the contrary, I listen to radio stations that play the music I want to hear. Led Zeppelin, ACDC, Eric Clapton, Thin Lizzy, KISS, Soundgarden, U2, Pearl Jam, The Who, just to name a few. And this is a premiere station in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

P.S. - I bold the two greatest bands ever

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[shredmandan]

Just wanted to say i havent really seen many people comment on the Cobain thing except saying they dont hate him.I guess this was a topic in a different post i didnt see.What i think of Cobain?He was very smart and took the music world by storm.I dont think anyone had ever heard this style of music before and man did it take off.I was just getting ready to be a teen when this all started and let me say everybody and there grandma listened to Nirvana .All through my hears in school i always saw fans wearing shirts and stuff .Many of us then and even now started out learning guitar from there songs because they were easy to play,which brings another discussion i have out.

Should we consider actual talent on leval of difficulty to play it ?Thats a really tough question for me to answer cause i know the right answer but also i know how i judge music myself.I look for the guitarist that are pulling off insane riff's and shred stuff that seems impossible to play but how can we seperate talent from difficulty?Think about it and i would like to see some other's opinions on here about that.

I would like to end saying although Cobains riff's were not the hardest he sure left with his music having a HUGE impact on guitar player's from 1991 to present day.Sometimes i wonder if he hadnt commited suicide would he be as remebered as if he just continued to make music and fade out.Lets see what you think

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[Asphyxia Feeling]

I don't know what kind of exposure someone who has never listened to it would get.. The mainstream stuff is an advertisement to people who might dig deeper and find the hidden gems. But if you don't like the advertisement, then you aren't going to dig deeper.

yes, i agree. it just comes that we're all interested in rock music to begin with anyway. i didn't have a "rock'n'roll" upbringing so to speak; nobody in my family was really interested in music. the first bands i liked were blink-182 and sum 41. it was through them that i ended up being exposed to everything else. for most of us (i included) hip-hop has this really stupid gangster whatever commercial image, so we aren't interested in it at all. so we don't even bother looking across the bridge. like i said, i only started liking rap after a friend of mine exposed me to better stuff.

On the contrary, I listen to radio stations that play the music I want to hear. Led Zeppelin, ACDC, Eric Clapton, Thin Lizzy, KISS, Soundgarden, U2, Pearl Jam, The Who, just to name a few. And this is a premiere station in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

P.S. - I bold the two greatest bands ever

well. perhaps radio was a bad example. what i meant was outlets that play new music. like, the radio stations where i live... mainstream radio is "THE DESERTS BEST MIX" best mix = nickelback. your radio station sounds awesome!

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This post has been edited by Asphyxia Feeling: Nov 6 2007, 03:16 PM

[Kristofer Dahl]

A little defence in case anyone should think I am against rap music or Cobain.

One of my hip hop songs. (Not many real instruments but I still enjoyed it alot)

My tribute to Kurt Cobain

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