Phil Anselmo: A Racist Options

[fzalfa]

racism ans facism symbols are common in metal representation, german cross, logo design etc...... as for satanic one...
more to '"shock" than to provocate racist behavious, but..... the pronunciation of some phrases are more specific on recist related.

Laurent

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[Fran]

That kind of behaviour is unacceptable. Lucky for humankind these self proclaimed superior beings didn't do all that great back in '45

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[jstcrsn]

@Klasaine and jstcrsn

You are downplaying Phil's [to me] over-obvious racist acts as "bigotism". He ended the whole dimebash 2016 by sieg hailing and yelling " white power". I am sorry to say that I see this downplaying as yet a cornerstone in support of racism.

If this is not a conscious racist act, then could you please clarify what would qualify as such? Perhaps he would need to drag up a black man on stage and insult / beat him because of his skin color? Would that qualify as racism?

This discussion reminds me about downplaying sexist acts with the parole "boys will be boys". This might seem innocent, but in the long run contrubites to domestic abuse, rape etc. We are responsible for showing adolescents at an early age what is OK and what is NOT.

I can definitely see how teaching millions of metal fans around the globe that 'sieg heil' and 'white power' is good stuff - will contribute to racism, further down the road. Can you?

I didn't down play nothin . I sAid growing up with multi race best friends , I find it offensive , my thought was , If you find this offensive , why don't you care about all the other forms of bigotry as well ? ( see example in post ). And until we fight all forms at the same time, it won't get better .

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[Kristofer Dahl]

I didn't down play nothin . I sAid growing up with multi race best friends , I find it offensive , my thought was , If you find this offensive , why don't you care about all the other forms of bigotry as well ? ( see example in post ). And until we fight all forms at the same time, it won't get better .

Are you saying that unless we fight against all [types of?] injustices at the same time we shouldn't deal with any? Sorry I am not sure I get your point.

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[klasaine]

You're completely misunderstanding me. I'm not downplaying it at all. There's a lot of tacit racism/bigotry in metal and punk as well as in the metal and punk community - and there has been for a long time. Bands like 'Screwdriver' and 'No Remorse' are cited regularly as influences.

My surprise is that you, or anyone else is 'surprised' by this little incident.

Personally, I can and will separate the art from the man. Hell, I listen to Wagner.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 5 2016, 04:14 PM

[Kristofer Dahl]

You're completely misunderstanding me. I'm not downplaying it at all. There's a lot of tacit racism/bigotry in metal and punk and there has been for a while. Bands like 'Screwdriver' are mentioned regularly as influences.
My surprise is that you, or anyone else is 'surprised' by this little incident.

But, I can separate the art from the man. I also listen to Wagner.

I don't think many old time fans are surprised, this is more of an "enough is enough" thing - initiated by Robert Flynn from Machine Head.

Sure we're almost two decades late, but better late than never - right?

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[klasaine]

Sure we're almost two decades late, but better late than never - right?

The white power thing has been going on (peripherally) in punk/hardcore and metal since the late 70s.
It'll probably get worse as the immigrant crisis in Europe continues and the way politics is going in the US.

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[jstcrsn]

Are you saying that unless we fight against all [types of?] injustices at the same time we shouldn't deal with any? Sorry I am not sure I get your point.

I am saying we should stand NOW for all injustices , not just hop on the band wagon ones. But, what are you using to determine moral standard

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[Todd Simpson]

Now that's what I call separating the art and the artist A Jewish man who drives a ford and listens to Wagner. I"m a "Proud Southerner" who embraces racial/social/gender equality and I"m a Metalhead. Thankfully, me mum did quite a fine job raising me IMHO. So much really goes back to that. One of her best friends when I was a child was a Hindu woman who wore a tilaka (small circle of pain/color/lipstick) on her forehead to indicate she was married. I asked why my mom didn't wear one and a learned quite a bit about multiculturalism. I asked if I could wear one and mom got out her makeup and put one on me. I kept it on til it wore off.

I don't listen to a ton of Black Metal, but I'm not offended by it as many folks in my region of the country seem to be. Being in the buckle of the Bible Belt and all But if I was in to some BM band, I don't think I'd have to abandon my concept of faith to do it. At least I hope not

Phil is a bigot. I got no problem calling out bigots. But as mentioned, bitchin band

You're completely misunderstanding me. I'm not downplaying it at all. There's a lot of tacit racism/bigotry in metal and punk as well as in the metal and punk community - and there has been for a long time. Bands like 'Screwdriver' and 'No Remorse' are cited regularly as influences.

My surprise is that you, or anyone else is 'surprised' by this little incident.

Personally, I can and will separate the art from the man. Hell, I listen to Wagner.

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Feb 7 2016, 04:11 AM

[klasaine]

Now that's what I call separating the art and the artist A Jewish man who drives a ford and listens to Wagner.

My family's even owned a few VWs.
If you can't separate the art from the person, you aren't gonna be listening to, looking at, watching or reading very much at all ... at least not much that's any good.

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[Kristofer Dahl]

This is a very interesting discussion - though I am not sure why there wouldn't be concensus around the topic.

Wagner lived on the 18th centrury - not only is that a long time ago, but in my books it's even before the nazis entered the scene (?)

What we have here is the frontman of metal, propagating racism and nazism - to a contemproary audience of potentially millions and millions of fans. He is allowed to spread this message on various channels to people who might not be well aware of the suffering that racism has caused historically.

It is very different to some random small punk band (etc) having racist lyrics. Phil is mainstream in metal!

By objecting to this, we are telling the metal sites, magasines etc. that we do not support Phil spreading this propaganda. By doing so we can make a difference.

Of course there are thousands upon thousands other injustices - and we should try do as much as we can. But if we want to make a difference, it is wise to prioritize - and Phil a big target!

What's even worse in Phil's case - is that everyone is aware of racist hints/themes in in his songs. But we (or at least I) have believed it was part of an artistic message - not his personal ideology!

Now that he has clearly proven the opposite - I feel a strong need to distance myself from him.

Hopefully you will agree that if a big name in metal is open about his racist ideology, it is likely many fans will consider following this ideology?

Hopefully you will also agree that such a large scale following could be devastating?

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[klasaine]

1) Metal is not really mainstream ... and never has been so this shit can always fly under the radar.
2) Many, many, many in that community absolutely know exactly what he's talking about ... and sadly, align with it.

I think it's great that you want to disassociate yourself from Anselmo but you have to understand that this is nothing new or isolated, at least in the States and England (and probably Germany). There are record companies and concert promoters that specialize in white power and anti-Semitic bands and, within the genre, there are a lot of followers and fans.
The hard-core and punk scene, at least in the States, has ALWAYS intersected with the white power bands. You wanna go down a sick and f'd up rabbit hole? - just google white power bands or stormfront or screwdriver band.

Again, my surprise is that anybody's actually surprised.

*This is a great book. It focuses on soccer hooligans and the psychology of crowds but it's a fascinating read ... http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33460.Among_the_Thugs

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 7 2016, 09:48 PM

[Kristofer Dahl]

Again, my surprise is that anybody's actually surprised.

I'm surprised you're surprised we're surprised

2) Many, many, many in that community absolutely know exactly what he's talking about ... and align with it.

Well that would make this discussion even more important, wouldn't it?

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[klasaine]

Well that would make this discussion even more important, wouldn't it?

Yes, it's very important. But, and maybe it's because I'm a Jew, that I'm used to it (not dismissive of it - just used to dealing with it) because it's EVERYWHERE!
Artists are not immune from feeling disaffected because they can't get a job, aren't rich, can't get a girlfriend or whatever. And they, just like other folks will scapegoat somebody - Jews, Blacks, Arabs, Mexicans, Asians, Women, etc. If there's one constant in this world it's the ability for one group to blame another for their own fucking problems.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 7 2016, 10:48 PM

[Kristofer Dahl]

Artists are not immune from feeling disaffected because they can't get a job, aren't rich, can't get a girlfriend or whatever. And they, just like other folks will scapegoat somebody - Jews, Blacks, Arabs, Mexicans, Asians, Women, etc. If there's one constant in this world it's the ability for one group to blame another for their own fucking problems.

Well I couldn't agree more. However we can assume not all metalheads are as clear-sighted.

Many people, not used to deeper self-analysis, will channel their frustrations through whatever they can find. And I don't want them to find Phil's ideology first. Perhaps they could practice scales with a metronome all day long instead?

What if Phil ended his gigs by saying something along the lines of "music is what brings us together regardless of where we come from" (he could add some neat swearing to make it sound more like him, obviously).

It would be so easy and so much better. But since he doesn't get it, I say let's take him down and have someone else up there instead.

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[klasaine]

It would be so easy and so much better. But since he doesn't get it, I say let's take him down and have someone else up there instead.

Well, it's all been put up there in the digital universe for everyone to see. So lets see what the 'people' choose to do.

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[Kristofer Dahl]

Well, it's all been put up there in the digital universe for everyone to see. So lets see what the 'people' choose to do.

The people - that's you and me! What will you do?

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[klasaine]

The people - that's you and me! What will you do?

I'll still listen to Pantera.
Down never really did anything for me and I was kinda over it by then anyway. And honestly, I don't really listen to much metal anymore (have you heard my record? lol!).
If and when anything with Anselmo comes up I will say to myself, "Nazi" ... and go from there.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 9 2016, 12:45 AM

[AK Rich]

What we have here is the frontman of metal, propagating racism and nazism - to a contemproary audience of potentially millions and millions of fans. He is allowed to spread this message on various channels to people who might not be well aware of the suffering that racism has caused historically.

It is very different to some random small punk band (etc) having racist lyrics. Phil is mainstream in metal!

Of course there are thousands upon thousands other injustices - and we should try do as much as we can. But if we want to make a difference, it is wise to prioritize - and Phil a big target!

What's even worse in Phil's case - is that everyone is aware of racist hints/themes in in his songs. But we (or at least I) have believed it was part of an artistic message - not his personal ideology!

Now that he has clearly proven the opposite - I feel a strong need to distance myself from him.

Hopefully you will agree that if a big name in metal is open about his racist ideology, it is likely many fans will consider following this ideology?

Hopefully you will also agree that such a large scale following could be devastating?

First of all I would hardly consider Phil the frontman of metal, not even close actually. But even if he was, I don't see all his fans, or even anywhere close to a majority of his fans as having the same ideology. I would suggest that number of his fans believing as him to be a fraction of the fanbase. What percent of his fans on this website would you consider believe what Phil does?
And in this day and age, how is is possible that anyone that has been to school for at least 6 years not know of the suffering that racism has caused?

You seem to be giving the guy far more credit than he is due as far as his influence goes. And at the same time not much credit at all to his fans as far as knowing the difference between right and wrong goes. I am not saying because of that that you shouldn't speak out, absolutely you should which brings me to the next point.

There is absolutely no difference whatsoever from some small punk bands lyrics and what Phil said. Racism is racism is racism period!
Whether it comes from Phil or some knucklehead standing on a street corner. and it doesn't matter whether it comes from someone who is blue, green, brown, red or purple. it is all the same. I have to say this because believe it or not , some folks think racism can only come from white folks.

I would say you have been very naive if you haven't thought his lyrics were personal beliefs and even if they weren't his beliefs there is still a racist message there so whats the difference whether he meant it or not? Hello! It is still a racist message! And hello again as Ken has pointed out there are racist messages in lots of metal and lots of other bad messages too right?

What it comes down to is the mind of the listener. The fans that are influenced by these messages are simply weak minded individuals who don't know any better somehow, and I feel there are far more strong minded individuals than weak minded ones , and even the weak minded ones for the most part grow up and see the light eventually.

Don't get me wrong. I applaud you for standing up against this but as Ken has said. I also am surprised that you are surprised. You want me to stand and boycott with you? No problem, I haven't bought a Panterra album since the 90's anyway. For the most part I have always been more of a hard rock and classic rock kinda guy anyway and the older I get the further I get away from most dark music, especially the way it is today. I am much more into positive messages these days.

It is not just metal that has folks in it with messed up ideas and beliefs. Some kinds of Rap music may be even worse than metal when it comes to widespread expressions of racism, hatred and violence.

As long as you don't go all Al and Tipper Gore on me and start talking about censorship (Which I don't believe you would by the way) , I am with you. Otherwise, I would have to label you as Fascist. Just sayin'.

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This post has been edited by AK Rich: Feb 8 2016, 07:37 PM

[klasaine]

As long as you don't go all Al and Tipper Gore on me and start talking about censorship (Which I don't believe you would by the way) , I am with you. Otherwise, I would have to label you as Fascist. Just sayin'.

Ha, ha! That reminds that I recently got the latest Kendrik Lamar record (how to pimp a butterfly) and I popped it in the car CD player ... with my 6 year old in the car. Oops! Shoulda paid attention to the warning label.
I never pay attention to that stuff. And I never will.
Art is art. Most of the best of it comes from a place of frustration. Occasionally that can manifest in hate. Occasionally that hate is directed at someone. And occasionally that directed hate will have an audience. Sucks but it's true.

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This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 9 2016, 01:17 AM