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GMC Forum _ MTP (Pedja) _ Wrk's Mtp Thread

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 4 2009, 06:12 PM

Hi Andy!

This is place where I will give you assignments and upload videos. You will do the same starting tonight. Bookmark it, subscribe to it as it will be easier to follow when I post new things in!


Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 4 2009, 10:58 PM

Lets get started Andy!

Here is your 1st assignment :

- Record chord progression in Phrygian mode. Root and tempo of your choice!
- Make an audio/video recording with two choruses of solo. 1st chorus soloing with chord tones, 2nd chorus soloing with tensions.
- Apply VST instruments of your choice but I would at least like to hear trio (bass drums and guitar or piano).
- Once you record backing track upload it here !
- When you record video, put it on Youtube and embed it here!

I will not put any time limit for this one Andy as you might have extra questions for me regarding chord progression and bass lines smile.gif

I do have a hint to help you make Phrygian mode cadence !

Check out this link http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=30193&view=findpost&p=418884
It should help a lot!

Let me know if you need any help, I am here!

Pedja

Posted by: wrk Sep 4 2009, 11:08 PM

Wao ... that sounds damn challenging and interesting !!
For sure some questions will come up, but first i will try to work out some ideas.

Thanks a lot for this great assignment Pedja smile.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 4 2009, 11:12 PM

QUOTE (wrk @ Sep 5 2009, 12:08 AM) *
Wao ... that sounds damn challenging and interesting !!
For sure some questions will come up, but first i will try to work out some ideas.

Thanks a lot for this great assignment Pedja smile.gif


I am very glad to hear that! I will always aim to challenge you but never to discourage you with overload of information!
I choose Phrygian on purpose because I just know you never did backing for that one. Ionian or Aeolian would have been much easier I am sure... wink.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 5 2009, 07:07 PM

Hi Pedja,
Here is my backing and i wanted to check with you if this sound ok for you?

It's a loop 4x - Em7 | Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 = Imin7 | bIImaj7 | bVIImin7 | Imin7

 wrk_backing_E_Phrygian.mp3 ( 1.36MB ) : 174


Thanks !!



Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 5 2009, 07:37 PM

Andy perfect!
Smooth Jazz sounding, love it. What VST's did you use for it?

Its time to do some improvising over that wink.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 5 2009, 10:59 PM

Great, glad you like it .. the drums are "Addictive Drums" the rest are VSTs which came with Logic and GarageBand.
I work on some improvisations now ... smile.gif





Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 5 2009, 11:13 PM

Good Andy, show me now what you can do over this backing track, then we can expend it further and talk about approaches.

Posted by: wrk Sep 6 2009, 06:00 PM

Hi Pedja,

Here is a first take over the Phrygian backing. It's a bit sloppy and i will for sure do other takes, but maybe we could use it for discussion as it is a typical solo i come up with when i jam over a backing.

Some question:
1. Does this solo sound phrygian to you? huh.gif .. should i use the b2 (F) more often, even over the Em (Imin) to add more phrygian sound to the solo?
2. Do you have any advice how i could extend the chords. I mean, are there any extensions which works well within a phrygian chord progression?
3. Just to be sure, could you just clarify for me what you mean with "soloing with tensions". I guess you mean extended chord notes, right?




Thanks !!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 7 2009, 08:26 AM

Andy this very well done! Let me answer your questions :

1) Solo does sound Phrygian but it also sound like you were using minor pentatonic. You did use F (characteristic note of the mode) in the very beginning so you defined the mode in listeners ear early on. You don't have to over use it, but make sure you do melodic ideas with characteristic note and you will be fine.

2) Are you talking about adding more chords to the whole mix? Since its E Phrygian, you can pretty much use any chords from C major harmony. The thing is, you need to use correct harmonic rhythm for new chords so they fit. In other words, keep the existing cadence in the end but start with E minor and add characteristic chords in the middle. What chords in C major scale contain note F? This is great starting point, work from that idea wink.gif

3) Yes, you were right. Soloing with tensions is using strictly extensions of the chord as soloing device. So E minor 7 is the chord, 7th is not a tension but b9 11 and b13 are. Question here is, can you use b9, 11 and 13 ? smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 8 2009, 05:13 PM

Hi Pedja,

I recorded a 2nd take .. this time a bit closer to your assignment.

loop 1-2 (tension notes only, b9, 11, 13) - sorry, i start on E, but with a slide from F wink.gif
loop 3-4 (chord notes, incl. 7th)





QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 7 2009, 09:26 AM) *
2) Are you talking about adding more chords to the whole mix? Since its E Phrygian, you can pretty much use any chords from C major harmony. The thing is, you need to use correct harmonic rhythm for new chords so they fit. In other words, keep the existing cadence in the end but start with E minor and add characteristic chords in the middle. What chords in C major scale contain note F? This is great starting point, work from that idea wink.gif

Beside Fmaj7 and Dm7 which are already in the progression the note F is (theoretically) in

Bm7b5 - 5th
G7 - 7th
Emb9 - 9th
Am13 - 13th
Cmaj11 - 11th

I will play around with some of these chords and try to extend or modify the backing.

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 7 2009, 09:26 AM) *
3) Yes, you were right. Soloing with tensions is using strictly extensions of the chord as soloing device. So E minor 7 is the chord, 7th is not a tension but b9 11 and b13 are. Question here is, can you use b9, 11 and 13 ? smile.gif

I figured that the note F (b9) over Em7 does not fit at all for my ears(?). I actually had some problems to come up with idea to solo only with tensions. I will continue with this approach.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 8 2009, 09:58 PM

Sounds great so far Andy!
Keep working with the tensions sound, I like how you are using them in your soloing so far. After we will move to some approach patterns and chromaticism smile.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 10:11 PM

Andy how is Phrygian b9 happening ? smile.gif

I am waiting to hear your experience on expanded chords! Did you manage to use some in your backing track ? What about soloing with some of the arpeggios describing those extended chords?

Let me know if you need any tips, I think you are on a good way to discover something cool wink.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 10 2009, 10:29 PM

Actually i start to get tensed by concentrating on all these tensions ... no, not true ... laugh.gif

I worked quite a lot on different ideas, even different backings, but by now it's only a collection of licks .. thats why i didn't upload something new.

Not sure really what i expect, .. somehow i think i should discover something, but i don't know what smile.gif. Sounds stupid maybe, ... if you have any tips would be great, otherwise i just continue to play with ideas.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 10 2009, 10:54 PM

Well Andy, this mode is a little bit different then any other in major scale. Main reason for this is you will see many times Phrygian being used exclusively in the song, making it a modal composition (just like you did in the original backing track). To actually use Phrygian with other modes (modulating and changing keys) takes some skill.

I can give you a suggestion which should be very useful.

Take characteristic notes of the mode (b9 and b13) and try to make melodies with them. If you are running out of ideas to make melodies using these notes, start playing arpeggios that contain one (or both) of the characteristic notes.
Ideally you want to create tension and release in your soloing, in other words don't just play tension but resolve it to E minor and equivalent sound.

I hope that makes sense Andy.

Let me know if that helps!

Posted by: wrk Sep 10 2009, 11:38 PM

Thanks Pedja ... i will let you know how it goes smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 11 2009, 11:12 AM

Here is a 3rd take

I have modified the backing a bit and removed the ambient sound to hear the piano chords more clear.
In loop 2 and 4 i added some extensions to the chords: A(11) to Em and G(9) to Fmaj7

1 - Em7 | Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7
2 - Em11 | Fmaj9 | Dm7 | Em11 / Em7
3 - Em7 | Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7
4 - Em11 | Fmaj9 | Dm7 | Em11 / Em7

I'm not sure if i start to get feel for the phrygian mode, but at least it becomes much easier now for me to be aware of each note i play.




Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 11:18 AM

Excellent Andy!
This is the real deal now. I am starting to like a lot your usage of tensions and characteristic notes. I can still in your playing hear more pentatonic based melodies but that is fine right now. I am more happy to hear F and C used in melodic context. You also did good with adding chord tensions 9 and 11, those are very useful and jazzy. If you add tension 13th somewhere in there, you will have very few if any avoid notes in soloing. Remember this is modal soloing so you have a lot more options to be dissonant then when doing other things!

Posted by: wrk Sep 11 2009, 11:51 AM

Yes, melodic ideas are often based on pentatonic licks for me. I get a bit bored of this actually and i think assignments like this one will help me to develop new ideas.

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 11 2009, 12:18 PM) *
... If you add tension 13th somewhere in there, you will have very few if any avoid notes in soloing. Remember this is modal soloing so you have a lot more options to be dissonant then when doing other things!

That was a nice hint ... i will try this, thanks !!

Should i continue with more takes around this backing and mode or do you have a follow up assignment on which i can work as well? You mentioned "approach patterns" in an earlier post. What do you mean with that?



Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 11:58 AM

Approach patterns are very useful for enriching the melody and/or target note.

Lets say you want to target E note, here are some possible approach patterns

1) Below (D to E or D# to E)
2) From Above (F to E)
3) Below and above (D F to E or D# F to E)
4) Chromatic approach (D# to E or F to E)
5) Double chromatic approach (D D# to E or F# F to E)
6) Above and below (F D to E)
7) Double chromatic + above (D D# F to E)
8) Double chromatic above + double chromatic below (F# F D D# to E)
9) Combination of approaches above

This technique can be also referred to as Delayed Resolution. You are delaying resolution to your target note by using specific notes to approach it.



Try to record couple of choruses now using approach patterns I mentioned!

Posted by: wrk Sep 11 2009, 12:12 PM

Awesome ... Thank you Pedja !!
I guess a few of them i used in my takes before without knowing that these are approach pattern. Will be interesting to focus on it a bit more and play with variations.





Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 11 2009, 12:52 PM

QUOTE (wrk @ Sep 11 2009, 01:12 PM) *
Awesome ... Thank you Pedja !!
I guess a few of them i used in my takes before without knowing that these are approach pattern. Will be interesting to focus on it a bit more and play with variations.


You welcome Andy!
Now you have some tricks to work on. I am very excited to hear what and how you will apply. After we finish with this one, we will change the mode and work on some other things, but more on that later wink.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 17 2009, 12:11 PM

Andy,

How are approach patterns coming along ?
We will very soon change the mode I just one to hear one take from you in this one using approach patterns!

I will be out of town today but I will be back tomorrow. Let me know if you have any questions!

Pedja

Posted by: wrk Sep 17 2009, 05:07 PM

Hi Pedja,

Here is my 4th take over the phrygian cadence. As i told you via PM, i was running a bit out of ideas after the previous 3 takes.

I have tried to incorporate some of these approach pattern and some chromatic variations of it. I wanted to get away from using too many pentatonic style licks, keep the notes closer together and make more use of tension notes. I slowed down the backing a bit to avoid to play too sloppy .

I'm not really confident with this take, but anyway .. i'm curious about your feedback when you are back in "town" ... have a good time smile.gif






Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 18 2009, 07:07 PM

Andy 4th take was good !
I have no complains because you did what I asked for. You applied approach patterns. In the beginning it will be harder to use it in your soloing and vocabulary, but more you practice them and try to create lines around them, ear will open up and hear them.

Lets move onto new mode now. I think we need to finish all important major modes (Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Ionian) before we get to melodic minor and things that are cool. I will also teach you things regarding theory and harmony, how to modulate and expand your 4,8,16 bar modal sections into new areas.

So your new assignment is to pick one of the modes below and create a backing track for it!

- B Dorian
- F# Lydian
- Bb Mixolydian
- F Aeolian

Choose one of the above, create backing track using available cadences. Feel free to add tensions to the chords as well if you want to make it more jazzier and in fusion manner. It would be interesting if you tried to make now different type of backing track. Vary the tempo and feel of the drums and bass. Lets see what you can do and then I will assign you soloing assignment wink.gif


Posted by: wrk Sep 19 2009, 08:24 AM

Thanks for the new assignment Pedja !!
It's great to go through each mode of the major scale and focus on it for while. I needed to do this since a long time ... i'm really exited to finally do this smile.gif

I think i will first start with the Mixolydian mode in Bb as i never used it before ... at least not consciously. As far as i understood the mixolydian mode is mainly used over a dominant 7th chord. I guess thats the reason a lot of lessons here at GMC are using a ONE CHORD vamp backing for the mixolydian mode and not so often cadences(?)

Actually that leads to another question i was wondering about in your cadence post .. you wrote .. "All the chords have the same duration !" ... is that a kind of standard to "define" a cadence? Just try to understand what possibilities i have if want to create a "typical" mixolydian backing.

If i do a progression like 8 bars I and after a 1xI, 1xbVII or 1xI, 1xVmin, would only be the last part called the cadence ? ... i just try to get the names clear i think.






Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 19 2009, 09:03 AM

QUOTE (wrk @ Sep 19 2009, 09:24 AM) *
Thanks for the new assignment Pedja !!
It's great to go through each mode of the major scale and focus on it for while. I needed to do this since a long time ... i'm really exited to finally do this smile.gif

I think i will first start with the Mixolydian mode in Bb as i never used it before ... at least not consciously. As far as i understood the mixolydian mode is mainly used over a dominant 7th chord. I guess thats the reason a lot of lessons here at GMC are using a ONE CHORD vamp backing for the mixolydian mode and not so often cadences(?)

Actually that leads to another question i was wondering about in your cadence post .. you wrote .. "All the chords have the same duration !" ... is that a kind of standard to "define" a cadence? Just try to understand what possibilities i have if want to create a "typical" mixolydian backing.

If i do a progression like 8 bars I and after a 1xI, 1xbVII or 1xI, 1xVmin, would only be the last part called the cadence ? ... i just try to get the names clear i think.


You welcome Andy!
Regarding cadences, they don't necesserilly have to have each chord using same harmonic rhythm. You can experiment with chords that I mentioned but just remember that your 1st chord should be I7 , and in the end of the cadence make sure you lead into I7 somehow. bVII7 is a good way to do that but also Vmin like you mentioned because it resolves up a perfect 4th to I7. So all good choices just experiment with harmonic rhythm.
You could also do just one chord vamp using I7 through out but I would prefer if you used extended cadence in order for harmony to enrich your melodic playing.
Let me know how backing goes and if you have any questions.


Posted by: wrk Sep 19 2009, 11:17 AM

Great ... i will work on it and let you know how it goes or if questions come up.
Thank you smile.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 20 2009, 10:54 AM

Sure thing Andy, let me know if I can help in any way!

Posted by: wrk Sep 22 2009, 05:28 AM

Hi Pedja, i hope you feel better now from your flu !!

Here is a backing in made with Bb-mixolydian cadence: I | bVII | I | V

7th chords, 4x : Bb7 | Abmaj7 | Bb7 | Fm7
 wrk_backing_Bb_Mixolydian_noext.mp3 ( 1.63MB ) : 154


with tensions, 2x : Bb7 | Abmaj7 | Bb7 | Fm7 --- Bb9 | Ab11 | Bb11 | Fm9
 wrk_backing_Bb_Mixolydian_ext.mp3 ( 1.62MB ) : 146


I have started to improvise over this backing with chord notes, tensions notes and some approach patterns. I will try to record a take very soon ...

Sorry for the delay to upload takes. I have some difficulties to find calm moments to record videos ... as i have some "annoying" people running around in the apartment all the time .. will try to kick them out as soon as possible laugh.gif


Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 22 2009, 10:19 AM

Hey Andy,

I am feeling a lot better. Today I will record a lesson actually smile.gif

I checked out these two versions and they sound very similar to each other, almost identical. I like the backing track, it has ambient and openness like the previous one for Phrygian mode.
Record those soloing approaches when you get the chance and then we can correct things and develop from there!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 22 2009, 10:48 AM

One more thing Andy

Happy birthday man smile.gif

Enjoy it today wink.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 23 2009, 09:04 AM

Great you feel better ... and thanks for the wishes yesterday smile.gif

Yes both backings are identical. I only added some tension notes over the 7th's chords to figure out how these notes sound. I will try to create some other backings, less ambient sound, but i have a lot of fun to play with Logic and some VSTs as i never really did this before and i want to get more experiences with that as well smile.gif

I will let you know how the soloing comes together ..


Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 23 2009, 09:29 AM

QUOTE (wrk @ Sep 23 2009, 10:04 AM) *
Great you feel better ... and thanks for the wishes yesterday smile.gif

Yes both backings are identical. I only added some tension notes over the 7th's chords to figure out how these notes sound. I will try to create some other backings, less ambient sound, but i have a lot of fun to play with Logic and some VSTs as i never really did this before and i want to get more experiences with that as well smile.gif

I will let you know how the soloing comes together ..


You welcome Andy. How was the gig last night ? I hope you enjoyed it smile.gif

I like when you use tensions but remember that you don't have to paint the whole picture with harmony. You can use tensions in soloing and triads or 7th chords in harmony. That kind of gives + and - effect if that makes sense. We will talk about various approaches soon but for time being try to do a take over the existing backing track, lets see how you are doing with it smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 23 2009, 09:52 AM

Gig was awesome .. two guitar player improvising over jazz standards. It was lesser "manouche jazz" as i expected from someone like David Reinhardt. Beside that it was technically impressive what they did, i realized that i have to listen way more to this kind of music ..

I am happy to have found this place. It's basically a small bar/restaurant with live music every evening with great musicians. Tonight is playing Serge Krief for example, who has been a musician for George Benson. I guess i will hang out there a lot in the future .. smile.gif

Back to work now .. smile.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 23 2009, 10:19 AM

Great to hear that Andy!
Does that place have a website? I would like to check out performers they have lined up.

I will record a lesson now so I guess I will talk to you later today smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 23 2009, 10:31 AM

http://www.ateliercharonne.com/

The website is in french, but you can find the program when you click on "Le Bar"(right) - "Programmation"(top)


Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 23 2009, 10:38 AM

Looks good !
Mostly Jazz manouche and some classical. That music is great for background I guess smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 24 2009, 04:20 PM

Hi Pedja, here are finally two takes i did over Bb mixolydian backing. Once again quite melodic .. rolleyes.gif





Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 25 2009, 09:08 PM

Very nice Andy, both takes are melodic and similar somewhat. I like that you went a little bit outside of the chord tones and did some approach patterns and chromaticism. I would like to see that more and more into your lines as that tool will make them sound jazzier. Another advice I can give you is to start thinking in terms of time feel even more. In other words do a slow phrase followed by really fast one. Do this for whole chorus, see what you can make out of this idea!

Posted by: wrk Sep 26 2009, 11:30 AM

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Sep 25 2009, 10:08 PM) *
Very nice Andy, both takes are melodic and similar somewhat. I like that you went a little bit outside of the chord tones and did some approach patterns and chromaticism. I would like to see that more and more into your lines as that tool will make them sound jazzier. Another advice I can give you is to start thinking in terms of time feel even more. In other words do a slow phrase followed by really fast one. Do this for whole chorus, see what you can make out of this idea!

Thanks Pedja .. i will work on that smile.gif

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 27 2009, 01:33 AM

Ok Andy great. Let me know when you have something new for me!

Posted by: wrk Sep 27 2009, 11:32 PM

Hi Pedja,

Here is a 3rd take over the mixolydian backing. I tried this time to add some faster runs in there. Overall a bit shaky, but anyway ... smile.gif


Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 01:28 PM

Good work Andy. I especially like the balance of time feel soloing in the first half of the solo. After that it wasn't that evident. Also, try not to use so much identical sequence and exercise based licks when playing double time feel. I got the feeling you could have gone in 3 octaves using that legato sequence. Idea is to brake out phrasing, use pentatonics, arpeggios, chromatic approaches and all the other devices we talked about. I get a feeling you can do better then what you did currently. Correct me if I am wrong please smile.gif

Posted by: wrk Sep 28 2009, 04:24 PM

I knew somehow you wouldn't like that, but thought to post it anyway smile.gif
Will try to work on some other ideas ... Thanks !!

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Sep 28 2009, 04:33 PM

QUOTE (wrk @ Sep 28 2009, 05:24 PM) *
I knew somehow you wouldn't like that, but thought to post it anyway smile.gif
Will try to work on some other ideas ... Thanks !!


Hehe cool, I am glad you are feeling when I am not entirely happy smile.gif So far you are doing great, lets see more of it with double time ideas !

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