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GMC Forum _ PRACTICE ROOM _ Practicing/current Brain Research

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2007, 10:20 AM

Interesting reading. The author is an a teacher, in the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, and has degrees both in music and Neuroscience. Discuss?

http://www.newenglandconservatory.edu/studentLife/documents/PracticingandCurrentBrainResearchbyGebrian.pdf

Posted by: Andrew Cockburn Nov 5 2007, 10:47 AM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 5 2007, 04:20 AM) *
Interesting reading. The author is an a teacher, in the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, and has degrees both in music and Neuroscience. Discuss?

http://www.newenglandconservatory.edu/studentLife/documents/PracticingandCurrentBrainResearchbyGebrian.pdf


Fascinating stuff - the role of sleep in learning was especially interesting as was the mental practicing bit.

It kind of adds legitimacy to the metronome practice - practice perfect execution at a speed you can manage and you are training your brain to perform, the task, trimming neuron connections etc - repetition is the key. So in theory you should practice metronome for a while, then leave it over nght and the next day you will have improved ...

Interestingly, it implies that practicing the same thing for a long period of time is not a lot more effective than practicing it then sleeping. Of course, more practice is better but this implies that you should vary it and not practice any one thing to exclusion.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2007, 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 5 2007, 03:47 AM) *
Fascinating stuff - the role of sleep in learning was especially interesting as was the mental practicing bit.

It kind of adds legitimacy to the metronome practice - practice perfect execution at a speed you can manage and you are training your brain to perform, the task, trimming neuron connections etc - repetition is the key. So in theory you should practice metronome for a while, then leave it over nght and the next day you will have improved ...

Interestingly, it implies that practicing the same thing for a long period of time is not a lot more effective than practicing it then sleeping. Of course, more practice is better but this implies that you should vary it and not practice any one thing to exclusion.


You read fast.

edit: removed my 2 cents. people like the article, I was cluttering up the thread.

Posted by: ibanezkiller Nov 5 2007, 11:15 AM

That was the coolest 6 pages ever... im going to try it... learn a new mode mentally and the next morning after a good sleep, and try to play it after thinking about it...

Posted by: Eat-Sleep-andJam Nov 5 2007, 11:26 AM

Good Find Fkalich smile.gif


The mental practicing bit seems like a correct view point of the whole thing.
Doesnt this basically mean we can actually practice less and in different ways and still see the same improvment ? Neat.


Off to Bed ! smile.gif

Posted by: FretDancer69 Nov 5 2007, 11:30 AM

It also means that we can be "practicing" a scale, lick, sweep arpeggio, tap lick ,etc in our minds when we are away of our instruments and that will actually help us improve more, even if we're not playing the instrument. Amazing and very informative.

Thanks fkalich, i enjoyed reading. smile.gif

Posted by: PlayAllDay Nov 5 2007, 12:47 PM

One of my old guitar teachers used to pace around and around the pot-belly stove in his farmhouse, and if you asked what he was doing he would snap "Shut up! I'm practising."
He was a brilliant guitarist too.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2007, 12:52 PM

QUOTE (PlayAllDay @ Nov 5 2007, 05:47 AM) *
One of my old guitar teachers used to pace around and around the pot-belly stove in his farmhouse, and if you asked what he was doing he would snap "Shut up! I'm practising."
He was a brilliant guitarist too.


good story.

Posted by: Zephyr Nov 5 2007, 12:55 PM

Wow... that's some pretty cool stuff, fkalich... I've only read the first couple of pages, I'll have to finish it later, but I had no idea that was what went on when you're learning a new technique! Amazing...

Posted by: mattacuk Nov 5 2007, 06:11 PM

Yeah this is seriously interesting stuff!! I always thought music practice must develop the brain in many ways.

Posted by: chast Nov 5 2007, 07:03 PM

Thats interessting, especially the mental training.
Just a few days ago, I also thought about "how I could learn something faster".

But I have a question about the mental training. The one group who wasnt allowed to play the piano, did they imagine that they play the piano (to hit the right keys) or how did they do that mental training ?

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2007, 07:05 PM

QUOTE (mattacuk @ Nov 5 2007, 11:11 AM) *
Yeah this is seriously interesting stuff!! I always thought music practice must develop the brain in many ways.


The garden hose analogy struck me. That poor practice habits actually do damage to the neural synapses that you are trying to establish, that have to be repaired (in her analogy, punching holes in the garden hose.)

From now on I practice clean, all the time, not more fast crap play. I can now visualize that when I did that, I was establishing these nasty little crap play neural receptors, it actually does damage to the synaptic structure that you are trying to establish in the learning process.

Posted by: mattacuk Nov 5 2007, 07:15 PM

I am very interested if practicing to a backing track is just as good as metronome usage. For the first 6-9 months i play to the metronome and now i tend to use the backing track to keep timeing (because its more fun). I always know if im in time, but i wondered what you guys thought about that!?

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2007, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (mattacuk @ Nov 5 2007, 12:15 PM) *
I am very interested if practicing to a backing track is just as good as metronome usage. For the first 6-9 months i play to the metronome and now i tend to use the backing track to keep timeing (because its more fun). I always know if im in time, but i wondered what you guys thought about that!?


Matt, you are thinking the same thing I have thought, and observed myself. I feel that the are an impediment to the learning process, they take away your focus. You probably have noticed what I have. I liked my play with a backing track, or drum machine, then just use a metronome, and all of a sudden, not so good anymore. For the most efficient practice, I feel that no more than the metronome. Even the drum machine takes away from your focused learning, though not to the extent of the backing tracks. I figure after you have perfected something, that is when to put the backing to it. Guys may be able to play sloppy and put some video on with thick backing, and some may ooooh and awwwww. But if you ever hear a REALLY skilled player with the backing, a world of difference. And if you hear some of these guys that sounded good with the backing, without that, not very good.

QUOTE (chast @ Nov 5 2007, 12:03 PM) *
Thats interessting, especially the mental training.
Just a few days ago, I also thought about "how I could learn something faster".

But I have a question about the mental training. The one group who wasnt allowed to play the piano, did they imagine that they play the piano (to hit the right keys) or how did they do that mental training ?


It was not specific on that. However I think I know what it was. You just visualize you play, you watch your fingers move in your head, and try to hear it in your head, with your "inner ear:"

Very skilled trained singers have the concept of "inner ear". This is not real sound, but you just hear it in your head. You have done that, have you not, sort of listened to a sound in your head? I think that you do that, visualize the finger movements, and try to hear it in your head.

Actually, I have played sometimes, and while playing, I would start listening to it in my head, what I wanted to come out of the guitar. And I would find that my playing was much nicer. As I said, trained professional singers (such as opera) do this, they imagine the sound they want as they sing, they focus on that. There are metal processes that will, if you focus on what you want to hear in your head, cause your fingers to do the right things. I believe that. And really great guitarists, I think they do that a lot. Maybe they don't think about it, but I think they do it, and that is why their music moves you. It is coming from deep inside.

I also have been visualizing mentally as I play recently, and have felt it really helps. Say i play a sequence with maybe 8 triplets, difficult. I will try to get a clear visualization of each triplet unit just before I play it, which is difficult as you go fast. I think they do that, just not actually playing the instrument.

Posted by: tonymiro Nov 5 2007, 09:11 PM

Very interesting article fkalich - thanks.

At the very least it has to be worth a try. So for this week - maybe longer - I'm going to switch my practice session accordingly. At the moment I usually practice in the morning first thing after breakfast. Maybe not a great time anyway as I'm often still half asleep then. So I'll try switching the time to last thing before bed.

Now the only possible downside - for me anyway - is whether I can 'turn off' when I go to bed or if I'll just lie there in the dark seeing notes unsure.gif . Still, if it stops me lying in the dark worrying about money it will have done at least some good wink.gif .

I'll try to remember to let you all know how things go.

Cheers,
Tony

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2007, 09:40 PM

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Nov 5 2007, 02:11 PM) *
Very interesting article fkalich - thanks.

At the very least it has to be worth a try. So for this week - maybe longer - I'm going to switch my practice session accordingly. At the moment I usually practice in the morning first thing after breakfast. Maybe not a great time anyway as I'm often still half asleep then. So I'll try switching the time to last thing before bed.

Now the only possible downside - for me anyway - is whether I can 'turn off' when I go to bed or if I'll just lie there in the dark seeing notes unsure.gif . Still, if it stops me lying in the dark worrying about money it will have done at least some good wink.gif .

I'll try to remember to let you all know how things go.

Cheers,
Tony


I will be looking for this in one week. Very interested in the experienced perspective.

I will say this. I have suspected some of theses things in the past, but after a day of just disciplining myself to, when I get to a difficult phrase, REALLY focusing on seeing it played in my head, visualizing that, and hear it correctly in my mind, I can play stuff that I before, well my attempt would have failed. I find myself at those times not even looking at the fret board, just visualizing the finger movements, and the sound in my head, and low and behold, really works.

I am going to do that also do the experiment (while not playing) and will also report back in a week on this thread. We can compare results, one from the humble student, the other from the experienced musician.

Posted by: fkalich Nov 5 2007, 10:46 PM

QUOTE (mattacuk @ Nov 5 2007, 12:15 PM) *
I am very interested if practicing to a backing track is just as good as metronome usage. For the first 6-9 months i play to the metronome and now i tend to use the backing track to keep timeing (because its more fun). I always know if im in time, but i wondered what you guys thought about that!?


a little qualification here, on backing. I don't feel you have to have it perfect to use the backing. Just get it to the point where you are decently clean, getting pretty close to that level. Then I think the backing is fine for finishing it up, polishing it up, and that is more fun I agree. I am just a humble student, I know that, but I am finding my progress quite rapid working according to these principles.

Posted by: JCJXXL Nov 5 2007, 11:20 PM

This validates what I have suspected. There have been times when I have picked up my guitar before going to bed to try something new I have read about or thought about. I may only spend 10-15 minutes on the "new thing" then go to bed. The next day or two when I go back to that new thing, it's alot easier.

I have a tendency to think about patterns, licks,etc throughout the day as I drive from one work appointment to the next. Sometimes I get so absorbed with an idea that I think about it as I am trying to fall asleep and the next day it's almost like someone/something has programmed me to perform it better.

Sounds very weird and if someone told me about a personal expierience like this I may doubt them. I asked a fellow guitarist about this and he totally agreed by sharing similar experiences.

I don't think thinking and sleeping on something will ever take the place of putting in some serious practice time but there is definitely something to be said about it boosting your ability to learn.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Posted by: Arrival Nov 5 2007, 11:54 PM

That's why I always want to play air guitar!!

Posted by: fkalich Nov 6 2007, 12:03 AM

QUOTE (JCJXXL @ Nov 5 2007, 04:20 PM) *
This validates what I have suspected. There have been times when I have picked up my guitar before going to bed to try something new I have read about or thought about. I may only spend 10-15 minutes on the "new thing" then go to bed. The next day or two when I go back to that new thing, it's alot easier.

I have a tendency to think about patterns, licks,etc throughout the day as I drive from one work appointment to the next. Sometimes I get so absorbed with an idea that I think about it as I am trying to fall asleep and the next day it's almost like someone/something has programmed me to perform it better.

Sounds very weird and if someone told me about a personal expierience like this I may doubt them. I asked a fellow guitarist about this and he totally agreed by sharing similar experiences.

I don't think thinking and sleeping on something will ever take the place of putting in some serious practice time but there is definitely something to be said about it boosting your ability to learn.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.


That is a very good two cents.

Posted by: Bedlam Nov 6 2007, 08:24 AM

great article fkalich! that's why i never pulled all-nighters in college. sleep is always more important.

now that my hand is in a cast, i'll be practicing mentally for the next 2 months! but i'll make sure to practice correctly mentally wink.gif

side note:
@fkalich - a&m is underrated in bball tongue.gif

Posted by: Twibeard Nov 6 2007, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 5 2007, 10:20 AM) *
Interesting reading. The author is an a teacher, in the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, and has degrees both in music and Neuroscience. Discuss?

http://www.newenglandconservatory.edu/studentLife/documents/PracticingandCurrentBrainResearchbyGebrian.pdf

So dose this mean that those of us who are old of age but new in guitar-playing really dont have a change at all? Not many neurons moving in my brain i guess laugh.gif as my fingers definately dont connect with my will. sad.gif

Posted by: Soul_Decision Nov 6 2007, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Twibeard @ Nov 6 2007, 07:04 AM) *
So dose this mean that those of us who are old of age but new in guitar-playing really dont have a change at all? Not many neurons moving in my brain i guess laugh.gif as my fingers definately dont connect with my will. sad.gif


laugh.gif You still got a shot. Not everything that studies says is all true. There are instances that even defy what they tell us. You could be one of them smile.gif

Posted by: Twibeard Nov 7 2007, 12:07 AM

QUOTE (Soul_Decision @ Nov 6 2007, 04:27 PM) *
laugh.gif You still got a shot. Not everything that studies says is all true. There are instances that even defy what they tell us. You could be one of them smile.gif

Could I? huh.gif omfg ... so it's true?? The Matrix is real?? ohmy.gif “The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you play your guitar, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled down over your eyes to blind you from the truth, the truth that you are a slave. As long as the Matrix exists, the human race will never be free.” - Morpheus. unsure.gif

Posted by: fkalich Nov 7 2007, 12:35 AM

QUOTE (Bedlam @ Nov 6 2007, 01:24 AM) *
great article fkalich! that's why i never pulled all-nighters in college. sleep is always more important.

now that my hand is in a cast, i'll be practicing mentally for the next 2 months! but i'll make sure to practice correctly mentally wink.gif

side note:
@fkalich - a&m is underrated in bball tongue.gif


They are pretty well considered by everyone as having a good team this year. I will never forget that shot by Law last year, where you beat us. He was the best go to guy in basketball last year. Even better than Durant in that respect.

People here like A&M fans, also we like Ok State. 80% of our hatred is reserved for Missouri. Maybe 85%.

Too bad about the cast. Try the mental thing. It is hard, you just mentally go through the music, trying to visualize the play, and hearing it in your mind's ear. If you do this, it will be interesting to see what happens when the cast comes off. You might try a totally new song, and learn it this way, and then see if you can play it then.

Posted by: Bedlam Nov 7 2007, 03:00 AM

QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 6 2007, 05:35 PM) *
They are pretty well considered by everyone as having a good team this year. I will never forget that shot by Law last year, where you beat us. He was the best go to guy in basketball last year. Even better than Durant in that respect.

People here like A&M fans, also we like Ok State. 80% of our hatred is reserved for Missouri. Maybe 85%.

Too bad about the cast. Try the mental thing. It is hard, you just mentally go through the music, trying to visualize the play, and hearing it in your mind's ear. If you do this, it will be interesting to see what happens when the cast comes off. You might try a totally new song, and learn it this way, and then see if you can play it then.


Yeah, i'm going to be working on the mental aspect for a while. when i get the cast off it's going to take a while for my fingers to get loose and strong again, so it'll be interesting. This is just the article i needed at this time.

also, we're at missouri this weekend sad.gif

Posted by: fkalich Nov 7 2007, 03:08 AM

QUOTE (Bedlam @ Nov 6 2007, 08:00 PM) *
also, we're at missouri this weekend sad.gif


please, make my dreams come true. the joy I would feel, were you to whoop their sorry tigger *****.

Posted by: Soul_Decision Nov 7 2007, 03:21 AM

QUOTE (Twibeard @ Nov 6 2007, 03:07 PM) *
Cound I? huh.gif omfg ... so it's true?? The Matrix is real?? ohmy.gif “The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you play your guitar, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled down over your eyes to blind you from the truth, the truth that you are a slave. As long as the Matrix exists, the human race will never be free.” - Morpheus. unsure.gif


laugh.gif Awesome smile.gif

Posted by: dimeisgod Nov 7 2007, 03:35 PM

wow... thanks a lot for that..

this will make practicing a lot more time efficient, i mean even on the way home from school you can start the mental practice.. the thing about sleep doesn't really change anything. i mean did you not sleep before reading this? will you sleep more..?

Posted by: audiopaal Mar 31 2008, 06:51 AM

Thanks for sharing smile.gif

I'll read through this after work today..

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 31 2008, 01:18 PM

Thank you very much for sharing this, truly useful(I hope).

Posted by: SinoMan Mar 31 2008, 01:21 PM

QUOTE (dimeisgod @ Nov 7 2007, 04:35 PM) *
wow... thanks a lot for that..

this will make practicing a lot more time efficient, i mean even on the way home from school you can start the mental practice.. the thing about sleep doesn't really change anything. i mean did you not sleep before reading this? will you sleep more..?


Yes I will sleep more now. Seriously.

Posted by: Oxac Nov 18 2008, 07:57 PM

Me too, I'm going to move from an average of 4 hours a day (on weekdays) to 9

Posted by: opeth.db Nov 18 2008, 08:59 PM

Great read! Thanks! smile.gif

Posted by: Ivan Milenkovic Nov 18 2008, 11:19 PM

This research is very interesting. I have learned a lot in the past about guitar practice when reading these kind of books and publications. Thanks for sharing smile.gif

Posted by: fkalich Nov 18 2008, 11:36 PM

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Nov 18 2008, 05:19 PM) *
This research is very interesting. I have learned a lot in the past about guitar practice when reading these kind of books and publications. Thanks for sharing smile.gif


wow. you dug for this one. or came to it by chance I guess.

the major thing I got out of that, is when I am learning a difficult passage/fingering, to try to keep a visualization of it as I go. I have to concentrate. To see the fretted notes in my head in the right places on the neck. It might be 20 notes or whatever, and to see them all in my head on the fretboard as I go. Or more it is visualizing the next note group or 3 or 4 notes right before I play it. At fast speed this requires me to keep my brain focused, but if I focus I can visualize the entire passage, each note group right before I come to it. That seems to ingrain it as described in the article, it is consistent with what she wrote. And then I seem to be able to play it, without having to visualize it anymore. Or at play it a lot better, in what Marcus L and others call "muscle memory". It is kind of hard, kind of like doing an exercise, but it works well for me. And fortunately, once it gets into memory, you don't have to force the visualization anymore, it is automatic.

I am sure you have thought of things like this in the past, or pretty close, but it is nice to read about it from another slant, as you say.

Posted by: Pedja Simovic Nov 19 2008, 12:41 AM

I have applied and still apply visualizing and memorizing process for more then 5 years I would say.
This stuff definitely works and was something that helped me the most to learn anything new and challenging as well as to improvise and write original material.

Good luck guys

Posted by: Paul Coutts Nov 20 2008, 05:20 PM

I love psychology. All of this could probably be enhance even more when you start meditating about certain things as opposed to just thinking about it. Thinking has a lot of distractions, but being submerged in the though through meditative techniques ought to amplify the results.

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